I would like to request a review of my deletion of the above file under WP:NFCC#1. The subject of the photo is still alive, but actively avoids public appearances, raising questions as to whether a freely licensed photo of him could be created. FASTILY(TALK)21:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I am the uploader. Here are the two sources on Tomčić staying outside the public eye, both in Croatian.
One, [1], google trans [2], my own trans below. There is a photo of the subject in the article, but it is quite clear (IMO) that it was taken without his consent.
... away from politics and the public, he is building his business empire. He does not give statements to anyone.
He also refused to talk to Globus about his business success.
"He is not ready to give any statements," the secretary of Capital ing said, refusing us. "Ever since he left politics, he makes no statements to any medium or any journalist," she recited importantly.
Two, [3], google trans [4]. There's an entire paragraph about him, here's my own trans of the relevant bit:
Ever since he left politics Tomčić seems to have evaporated. He does not want to be in the media, does not want to publicly comment on political events, although journalists call him. "It's hard to switch off from everything. Sometimes it itches me to say something, but for now I am resisting," admits Tomčić.
In addition:
I have contacted Mr. Tomčić directly and asked for a free photo, no reply yet. I'll report if anything happens.
A relatively minor point, since it hasn't been that long: the subject has served in his most visible role (President of Croatian Parliament) 2000-2003, so a photo from this period, such as this one or the one from his parliament page (see below), may be a better illustration of articles about his political life.
For the record, here's the home page of Mr. Tomčić's architecture company: [5]. It's a small outfit (14 listed employees) that seems to do business primarily with construction investors, and keeps a low public profile.
Update: An alternative source for the image may be the web pages of the Croatian Parliament: [6]. While unfortunately the Croatian state institutions do not have the policy of releasing everything into the public domain and seem to shy away from explicit licenses, the "Legal Notices" page of the Parliament [7], google trans [8], informally authorizes something close to CC-BY:
All rights reserved. The content of these pages can be used without special permission with source attribution.
Miranche hinted that he would like me to comment. I consider this the clear equivalent of CC-BY, and sufficient. That they do not express it in CC terminology does not mean that it is not a free license. DGG ( talk ) 09:16, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that that appears to be a CC-BY licence. Accordingly, there's no need to review the deletion. We can simply re-upload the file from the CC-BY source and retain it.—S MarshallT/C 12:18, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
They allow reuse with attribution, but reserve the rights to derivative works, so it isn't free enough. The tag to compare it to isn't {{CC-BY}}, but {{Attribution}}. 74.74.150.139 (talk) 12:31, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The original word is "prenositi", which google translated in context of this sentence as "use", but the literal meaning is closer to "transfer". It's ambiguous – I agree it allows for a conservative interpretation as CC-BY-ND, but also a bold one as CC-BY. It'd be good to have a second opinion from someone who speaks Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian – MirancheT C15:34, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If the original were in English, and said (as Google's translation does) "All rights reserved. Content from these pages can be used without special permission provided the source.", it absolutely would not be enough; reproduction on one hand and creation of derivative works on the other are two separate rights, and it's clear that this is a grant of reproduction. If the statement in the original is closer to "transfer" than to "use", then it's even less ambiguous. Being bold is something you do when adding your own content to Wikipedia pages, not when interpreting licence terms; if you're not granted a right, you don't have it. Otherwise, we could just go around claiming half the images on the internet are public domain because they don't specifically say we can't do whatever we like with them. We need explicit statements granting rights for both derivative and commercial usage anyway, per Wikipedia:Image use policy#Free licenses.
That said, permission for use makes for a much stronger fair use claim than we have for the image on monitor.hr. 74.74.150.139 (talk) 16:11, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the clarification, 74.74.150.139. To focus the discussion, I uploaded the image from the parliament instead. The question now becomes on the merits of a fair use claim of this image, released under the terms as stated ([9], [10]). I will remain neutral on whether these terms amount to CC-BY or CC-BY-ND. As you said, this boils down to whether certain rights are granted by default or withheld by default, and I have neither the legal expertise to judge this nor the inclination to get into a tangential discussion on it. Cheers – MirancheT C17:49, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Joy, thank you! I don't know how I missed this, I probably looked at it and interpreted it as applying only to texts. So the question becomes whether the photo qualifies as one of "official works ... disclosed for the purpose of officially informing the public". It seems to me that it does. – MirancheT C22:05, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, everything depends on that, but their generic copyright notice muddles the water. As I said before, we need examples from law practice to be able to ascertain where's the mistake. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:06, 15 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I've found a total of three images ([11], [12], [13]) + two extracted images of people on Commons using the tag {{PD-Croatia-exempt}}. Only one of the four people portrayed still lives, Queen Elizabeth II, and the image is from her 1972 visit to Yugoslavia. Possible precedent for exempting Tomčić's parliament portrait, but not a strong one. – MirancheT C23:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse in principle with no opinion as to the related licensing issues. The subject was a highly visible political figure/officeholder for more than a decade. The fact that he is said to have more recently become reclusive therefore is not terribly relevant in determining whether a free alternative may be available. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:12, 18 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I endorse the original deletion because a free use image is available (the image now uploaded). However the current licensing information is wrongly claiming fair use. Based on the discussion User:Joy has linked to, it seems there is no copyright on this new image (or, at the least, there is a good case for CC-BY). So, I think the newly uploaded image should be kept with the licensing and other tags sorted out properly. Thincat (talk) 22:48, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thincat, thank you for the reply. I noted that the copyright of the new photo is uncertain under "Other information" on the image description page, as I wasn't clear if the information Joy posted was unequivocal regarding the terms under which Croatian government is releasing the photo. If one of {{PD-Croatia-exempt}}, {{Attribution}} or {{CC-BY}} is indeed appropriate, then I agree this discussion is moot – and I may as well upload the image to Commons. – MirancheT C03:54, 23 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Closer, please note that the new image was uploaded over the old one; that is, please delete only the greyscale revision of File:Zlatko Tomcic.png uploaded 20:16, 10 December 2011, not the full-color revision that's currently on top. 74.74.150.139 (talk) 23:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
This professional videogame player is extremely notable. Has been mentioned by the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6275868.stm and many other mainstream sources multiple times, has had games broadcast on satellite international tv, has won over $140,000 in prize money and has been at the highest level in the game for almost a decade. The fact that he's professional OR that he's at the very highest level by themselves would be enough according to Wikipedia:Notability (sports)#Generally acceptable standards and Wikipedia:Notability alone would be enough to qualify for notability. If you do a search for "Cooller" on youtube you will find countless videos of him. Intel and id software both hosted events he's won many thousands at. Many other professional videogame players have pages. Here is what an outdated version of the page looked like: http://www.enotes.com/topic/Anton_Singov. All other highly successful professional players such as Shane Hendrixson get Wikipedia pages. Please restore.
Comment I suspect you should refactor your nomination somewhat. The article was deleted by a different admin following the XFD where the only opinion expressed was for deletion, this couldn't have ended any other way. King Of Hearts closed the following DRV where the discussion was thin, but basically a request for additional sourcing of a suitable standard, none was forthcoming. So again I can't see that the DRV would have been closed any other way. Finally coming to DRV and attempting to "poison the well" with regards the deleting admin is not appropriate, the question is about this deletion and no other deletion or what you may perceive as "bad behaviour". Not to mention you seem to have not looked up what administrator review is - it's a voluntary review the admin asks for to gain insight into how they perform, it isn't some sort of black mark against them. The fact that some opine there and are unhappy about deletions performed isn't unexpected, merely going there and complaining isn't a sign that there is any merit to the complaint. If there were a serious problem with the deletions I'd expect to have seen a large number of deletions challenged here and overturned, that isn't actually the case. I also have no idea of the connection between an admin review and being able to contact and discuss the deletion with the admin. --82.19.4.7 (talk) 08:18, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
* Comment - Hobit, no new evidence needs to be presented. Above on this page's article: Deletion Review is to be used if the closer interpreted the debate incorrectly, or if the speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria established for such deletions. Because of the fact that you have given a demonstrably false reason for your vote, I submit that your vote should be discounted.
82.19.4.7, thank you for your input. I made a call on what it seemed to me like at the time. I still consider there to be some questions over someone who is under admin review and that many people are unhappy with. If it turns out that this doesn't stick I can find new sources.
Sergecross73, well really! After everything we discussed on my user talk page. You really need to stop making calls and giving your opinion on things you know nothing about. Just because something does not seem significant enough to you to be notable does not mean it's not. You do not have to fall under the sports page to be on Wikipedia, and it did not say esport players were excluded from it, just that there is no consensus. I suggest you don't edit on Wikipedia again as you don't seem able to just be logical about something, after seeing all of the ways that he is notable and you still come back with that is just daft. The fact that you would even suggest that after all of what I showed you leads me to question your contribution to Wikipedia. There are multiple mainstream sources for this and he fulfills all sorts of notability criteria. Anton_Singov is coming back one way or another. Anonywiki (talk) 16:11, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The initial AFD was a unanimous delete, and it failed the deletion first review. How can you think new evidence isn't necessary? Secondly, this isn't the place to air your grievences with me; keep to the topic at hand. Third, my argument isn't "I don't like e-sports"; it's that there was a discussion on whether or not it should be included in sport notability criteria, and they decided "no consensus", which means it doesn't help your argument. (I didn't even take part in that discussion, so it's not just "my opinion".) Sergecross73msg me16:27, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Observation - For someone who continues to claim lack of involvement in these processes and discussions you are pretty fast to cast your "speedy deletion" votes aren't you? Anonywiki (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I claimed no involvement in the conversation in the link. Do you see my name in the link I provided? I openly admit I took part in the AFD for this page. Even if I was involved...there'd be nothing wrong with it, so I'm not sure what you're getting at... Sergecross73msg me16:50, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy close per standard practice when the nominator casts aspersions against the closer of the DRV and DRV participants. I note that the BBC article is a passing mention of the subject and that the nominator has provided insufficient evidence to demonstrate notability.
Comment - I request you remove the bold from one of your words. It looks like there are two votes, not one. This is contrary to the expectations and instructions given by Wikipedia for commenting on these pages. It's hardly a passing mention by the BBC, it is a main part of their article. Most of the BBC articles are like that. The mainstream news don't cover small sports very much either.
I dispute that I casted aspersions. I let it known that aspersions were cast against the closer of the DVR by others which I thought I had no choice but to do. When I made an attempt to contact him, I saw it said this at the top of his user page: "You may comment on his or her administrative actions at Wikipedia:Administrator review/King of Hearts.", this seemed to me like I could not talk to them. And yet it was recommended that I mention that I tried to work it through with the admin who closed it, so I had to mention this admin in some way. I was just promoting the flow of information.
I did not cast aspersions over the other users here, I just commented on the openly available information that was under discussion. Casting aspersions would mean going through their history and picking out things or something like that. If you think that the vote is legitimate, then you are free to count it.
I dispute also that it's a valid reason to vote for a "speedy close" because of these alleged casting of aspersions. All Wikipedia processes have to be carried out without prejudice, you can't "punish" people or adopt your own unofficial "standard practice". If it were endorsed by Wikipedia it would be part of Wikipedia Policy. (Edited at...) Anonywiki (talk) 19:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.