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→Merger proposal: (edit conflict) keep on topic guys, avoid ad hominems, and add sources! |
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*'''Merge''', largely per [[User:Widefox]] and my comments at the other discussion. I had also been essentially arguing against the individual notability of these names, ''especially'' in the ''English'' Wikipedia. I think that a merge is the best way to go, to create an article discussing the ''English'' surname ''Li'', with that article still outlining the potential etymological differences in these identical-in-English surnames. — <span name="TortoiseWrath">[[User:TortoiseWrath|<span style="color:#666 !important;">TORTOISE</span>]][[User talk:TortoiseWrath|<span style="color:#600">WRATH</span>]]</span> 18:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
*'''Merge''', largely per [[User:Widefox]] and my comments at the other discussion. I had also been essentially arguing against the individual notability of these names, ''especially'' in the ''English'' Wikipedia. I think that a merge is the best way to go, to create an article discussing the ''English'' surname ''Li'', with that article still outlining the potential etymological differences in these identical-in-English surnames. — <span name="TortoiseWrath">[[User:TortoiseWrath|<span style="color:#666 !important;">TORTOISE</span>]][[User talk:TortoiseWrath|<span style="color:#600">WRATH</span>]]</span> 18:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Merge stubs with no discrimination against future splits''' Being the English Wikipedia does not mean we should only deal with an Anglocentric point of view, but I agree that for the time being we must be realistic and merge stubs that couldn't stand alone. Leave the big surnames like [[Li (surname meaning "plum")]] alone. [[User:Underbar dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Underbar dk|talk]]) 19:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
*'''Merge stubs with no discrimination against future splits''' Being the English Wikipedia does not mean we should only deal with an Anglocentric point of view, but I agree that for the time being we must be realistic and merge stubs that couldn't stand alone. Leave the big surnames like [[Li (surname meaning "plum")]] alone. [[User:Underbar dk|_dk]] ([[User talk:Underbar dk|talk]]) 19:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC) |
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<s>*'''Delete [[:zh:郦姓]]''' - after seeing the rush of plain [[WP:COMPETENCE|WP:INCOMPETENT]] comments above (exception dk) we should go there and delete the surname [[:zh:郦姓]] from Chinese wikipedia as well. After all if we're going to make a complete mess of Chinese surnames on en.wp we should go and mess up the names on Chinese wikipedia too. [[User:In ictu oculi|In ictu oculi]] ([[User talk:In ictu oculi|talk]]) 00:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)</s> |
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::(ec) I wouldn't be so quick to proclaim Anglocentric or incompetence when it may be ignorance due to lack of RS. Add sources! Be aware of the irony of labelling editors by quoting [[WP:INCOMPETENT]]: "It does not mean we can label people as incompetent. For example, we do not say "You are incompetent because you don't know anything about the subject of this article. ... So if WP:COMPETENCE applies to an editor, it is usually not appropriate to tell them so." <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Widefox|Widefox]]</span>; [[User talk:Widefox|talk]]</span> 01:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Questions:''' |
*'''Questions:''' |
Revision as of 01:18, 4 July 2013
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Untitled
- top importance: stated as the most common surname on earth --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 20:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a proposal to create a precedent that names are not encyclopedic. Articles about names regularly show up on various deletion pages and are summarily deleted. Perhaps - since you've been working on an article about a name, you hold a different opinion that you'd like to express. Please do: Wikipedia:Deletion policy/names and surnames SchmuckyTheCat 17:05, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Chinese Name
Don't you think it's better to put a person's Chinese name in each name written, like Ang Lee, could it be like this?
- Ang Lee (李安), acclaimed Academy Awards winning film director
A-yao 04:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Lee & Li
I removed this somewhat obscure passage:
- There is also another legend that the surname Li is actually a branch from the Lee surname due to a rebellion. There is evidence of a once great war, located in the outlying Lee villages. Weapons and armour can be found lying scattered across the fertile rice fields. Upon these items is the emblem of 'Lee' and 'Li'. The local villagers say that according to folklore, the Li were inevitably crushed by the superior skills and numbers of the Lee.
It somehow makes the assupmtion that Lee's and Li's are separate identities: these are transliterations and nothing more, so when referring to a war between two different Li's, then please use Chinese characters. As it stands here it's pretty nonsensical. JREL (talk) 13:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Fork
This article was forked into Li (李). Please discuss cleanup on that article's talk page. -- Robocoder (t|c) 05:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- I see there are two other forks of this article. Therefore, I've converted this article to a dab page. -- Robocoder (t|c) 20:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Disambiguation Page
Shouldn't this be a disambiguation page? These are distinct names in Chinese, and the fact that English phonetics isn't robust enough to distinguish between them doesn't have anything to do with that.--Isaac R (talk) 22:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- Reasonable question - let's take this to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthroponymy. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Related article naming discussions
Several pages were resorted and redirect and renamed, so the discussion of that occurred at what is now called Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit") -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 07:09, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- There has been a sudden batch of controversial merges and moves. See Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit"). In ictu oculi (talk) 09:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Merger proposal
The recent discussion at Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit") draws the conclusion that we look for other solutions than using Chinese characters in article titles. Li Surname (郦), Li Surname (理) and Li Surname (莉) are recently created non-notable stubs written in poor English by a now-blocked user, whose creation of these articles was deemed disruptive editing, and there is little salvageable material. These should be merged to this umbrella article unless deemed independently notable. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:51, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- What is this? As above these moves and merges are already being discussed at Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit") together with previous discussion. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- That's the wrong place for this merger discussion. I already said that we should centralise here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- (Further reply at tail of original discussion) Re "already" - for the record the section on the batch of undiscussed merges and moves was opened at Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit") 09:25, 3 July 2013. User:Robsinden responded by "saying" discuss here Talk:Li (surname) 09:36, 3 July 2013, and then placing merge tags directing here at 09:45, 09:46, 09:47. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- That's the wrong place for this merger discussion. I already said that we should centralise here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- What is this? As above these moves and merges are already being discussed at Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit") together with previous discussion. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Close this discussion. Copy the existing discussion over to this page instead. You can use a {{moved discussion to}} / {{moved discussion from}} to indicate that the discussion was transferred. (The Requested Move should also be moved over, to provide context.) -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 10:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- No - this is the proper place for this discussion, as it relates to merging specific articles to this article. The other discussion is mentioned above for reference. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Merge or delete - I tagged the issues - are they even notable topics, even if put together? Without some WP:RS, what's to merge? This just looks like a mess that's worth starting again. Quite some disruption considering all the moot points above, articles should be based on RS, and incubated or userified until then. All seems a bit WP:DEADHORSE. Widefox; talk 12:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Comment – Agree with Widefox. Given the length of my editing to-do list, this issue is of such a low priority that I should just ignore it, as my mind went numb trying to make sense of the prior RM discussion, but since Rob asked me for further input, I'll add this. Look at Rose (name), a typical English-language dab "article" on "Rose (name meaning a type of flower)". Note from the languages links in the left margin that there are about ten interlanguage links including French and German, but none to Chinese. If someone could point me to a typical English-language name dab "article" that does have a Chinese interlanguage link, I'd like to see it. Also wondering if there are any notable Chinese who have English-language articles, but do not have romanized names, so we are forced to use their Chinese-character names to identify them. Wbm1058 (talk) 13:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Good point, although WP:OTHERSTUFF applies. Fine to have any articles based on WP:RS, just can't make sense of it without RS. Even WP:SIAs such as Rose (name) need RS as per any list, (else we have a loophole for any random content). Widefox; talk 13:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for your input, although I think you're looking at the wider scope for other "Li" surnames, rather than the three specific stub articles in question. We've already established that this is the "umbrella" article for all surnames romanised as "Li", so this discussion is to ascertain whether these three particular articles are notable enough to warrant a page of their own, or merely a mention here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Merge, largely per User:Widefox and my comments at the other discussion. I had also been essentially arguing against the individual notability of these names, especially in the English Wikipedia. I think that a merge is the best way to go, to create an article discussing the English surname Li, with that article still outlining the potential etymological differences in these identical-in-English surnames. — TORTOISEWRATH 18:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Merge stubs with no discrimination against future splits Being the English Wikipedia does not mean we should only deal with an Anglocentric point of view, but I agree that for the time being we must be realistic and merge stubs that couldn't stand alone. Leave the big surnames like Li (surname meaning "plum") alone. _dk (talk) 19:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
*Delete zh:郦姓 - after seeing the rush of plain WP:INCOMPETENT comments above (exception dk) we should go there and delete the surname zh:郦姓 from Chinese wikipedia as well. After all if we're going to make a complete mess of Chinese surnames on en.wp we should go and mess up the names on Chinese wikipedia too. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- (ec) I wouldn't be so quick to proclaim Anglocentric or incompetence when it may be ignorance due to lack of RS. Add sources! Be aware of the irony of labelling editors by quoting WP:INCOMPETENT: "It does not mean we can label people as incompetent. For example, we do not say "You are incompetent because you don't know anything about the subject of this article. ... So if WP:COMPETENCE applies to an editor, it is usually not appropriate to tell them so." Widefox; talk 01:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Questions:
- User:Widefox. On what basis is zh:郦姓 not notable? Do you think there are not enough sources? What constitutes enough?
- User:Wbm1058, same question. (in answer to "also wondering if there are any notable Chinese who have English-language articles, but do not have romanized names, so we are forced to use their Chinese-character names to identify them? - no, because those are articles about people so Andrew Lih could have "(writer)" added if there were two Andrew Lih not Andrew Lih (surname 郦). Second question, please clarify what "Given the length of my editing to-do list, this issue is of such a low priority" has to do with it? You are not the only editor available to edit these articles; there are plenty of WP:CHINA editors who can and will work on these articles unless they are prevented. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- User:TortoiseWrath, you mention "notability" and "English", so what does Wikipedia:Notability say about English sources? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC)