→Proposed merge with Amy Rose: reaffirm |
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:::: The direct content of the interviews constitute primary source material, yes, but the interview content itself was published in third-party secondary sources that are independent of the subject. I will agree that the Game Informer article is not the strongest source, but the ComicBook.com source contains significant content about ''her role'' in Sonic Mania Adventures, and the GNG does not discount sources simply because they discuss how the topic at hand relates to another topic; if anything, discussion among secondary sources about the topic in multiple contexts counts in favor of notability, not against. 19:42, 31 January 2019 (UTC) |
:::: The direct content of the interviews constitute primary source material, yes, but the interview content itself was published in third-party secondary sources that are independent of the subject. I will agree that the Game Informer article is not the strongest source, but the ComicBook.com source contains significant content about ''her role'' in Sonic Mania Adventures, and the GNG does not discount sources simply because they discuss how the topic at hand relates to another topic; if anything, discussion among secondary sources about the topic in multiple contexts counts in favor of notability, not against. 19:42, 31 January 2019 (UTC) |
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::::: Yeah, agreed. Nice finds, {{reply to|Prototime}}! I knew Amy had to have more coverage than what was cited in the article already, and that proves it. It would indeed be a real shame to see the article merged with all that's been added since this RFC started. [[User:Kokoro20|Kokoro20]] ([[User talk:Kokoro20|talk]]) 22:48, 31 January 2019 (UTC) |
::::: Yeah, agreed. Nice finds, {{reply to|Prototime}}! I knew Amy had to have more coverage than what was cited in the article already, and that proves it. It would indeed be a real shame to see the article merged with all that's been added since this RFC started. [[User:Kokoro20|Kokoro20]] ([[User talk:Kokoro20|talk]]) 22:48, 31 January 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::: I've re-added Sarkeesian's commentary to the article via a non-SPS academic source along with some additional commentary. If someone could take a look at non-English coverage - especially Japanese, I daresay there's a lot more sources to be found there - that'll also be great. '''''[[User:Satellizer|<font color="#00B7EB">Satellizer el Bridget</font>]] [[User talk:Satellizer|<font color="magenta"><sup>(Talk)</sup></font>]]''''' 04:08, 2 February 2019 (UTC) |
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* None of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amy_Rose&type=revision&diff=881141567&oldid=880348994 added text] changes my assessment that the character is not the subject of [[WP:SIGCOV|significant coverage]]. Adding more mentions of the character (as unparaphrased quotes) will not change that, especially when those mentions come from [[Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable sources|unreliable sources]]. <span style="background:#F3F3F3; padding:3px 9px 4px">[[User talk:Czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em sans-serif;color:#871E8D'>czar</span>]]</span> 03:48, 2 February 2019 (UTC) |
* None of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amy_Rose&type=revision&diff=881141567&oldid=880348994 added text] changes my assessment that the character is not the subject of [[WP:SIGCOV|significant coverage]]. Adding more mentions of the character (as unparaphrased quotes) will not change that, especially when those mentions come from [[Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable sources|unreliable sources]]. <span style="background:#F3F3F3; padding:3px 9px 4px">[[User talk:Czar|<span style='font:bold small-caps 1.2em sans-serif;color:#871E8D'>czar</span>]]</span> 03:48, 2 February 2019 (UTC) |
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Notability of the Wisps
Since 2010, Wisps have been recurring characters in the series, like Chao for example, and they have become a clearly notable staple in the series for 8 years, I suggest they have their own article, and as time goes it can be built-up even more. Thank you for reading. Coda16 04:25, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
- See this discussion. There's consensus that the Wisps aren't independently notable enough for their own article. JOEBRO64 10:28, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
- Seconded. They can just be discussed here at this page. Sergecross73 msg me 13:19, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
- See Draft:Wisp (Sonic the Hedgehog), I find this to be more than suitable enough for its own article. Coda16 04:06, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Which sources indicated dedicated, independent notability? Also, the draft looks pretty similar to the merged version. Sergecross73 msg me 12:16, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- I'd just like to point out that in 2014, a user named Tezero went so far with the Wisps as to create an article on them that went to FAC. Instead, it was rejected in favor of being merged off. Notability has to be independent of the subject, in other words, are the Wisps notable as more than just elements in the games they're in? If not, they're right where they belong. Red Phoenix talk 12:39, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- Which sources indicated dedicated, independent notability? Also, the draft looks pretty similar to the merged version. Sergecross73 msg me 12:16, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Rouge merger
It seems there have been some undiscussed efforts to restore the Rouge the Bat article. The most recent consensus, seen here, was that she did not have independent notabilty in its current state. If people wish to have it restored, they 1) need a new WP:CONSENSUS supporting it having its own article and 2) probably have some new evidence of notability, or there isn't much hope for a change in opinion here... Sergecross73 msg me 13:23, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Proposed merge with Amy Rose
After some searching, I'm sad to say that I don't think there's enough real-world coverage of Amy to warrant a separate article. The article is almost entirely sourced to the games (which are primary sources and don't contribute to notability) and the secondary sources present are just listicles, passing mentions, and/or unreliable. The Google Custom Search didn't show any significant mentions (and this was the only article solely about her). I feel it's best to cover her in a section here, as she unfortunately doesn't seem notable outside the series. JOEBRO64 23:12, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support per TheJoebro64's reasonings. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:33, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose: This again? Well, the last discussion on this was overwhelming against the merge, and I doubt that would change now. So, I strongly oppose, per mine and other arguments from last time. And what's with the bias against listicles? Kokoro20 (talk) 00:51, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- By the way, here's the GA version of the article. The reception section, in particular, had been significantly cut down since then, for some reason. Some of that could be added back. Kokoro20 (talk) 01:08, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support. The article is used as a coatrack for reams of primary source detail. None of the secondary source coverage is specific to her, or elevates her notability independently from that of the games/series. The Reception is list-like trivia:
Jem Roberts of the British Official Dreamcast Magazine called her a "little-pink-dog-type-thing."
The second paragraph is even more egregiously non-encyclopedic. Take a machete to this and merge the most important detail to the character list. If and when that independent, secondary source coverage ever arrives, it can split out summary style. (not watching, please{{ping}}
) czar 04:55, 27 January 2019 (UTC) - Support per Czar's rationale. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 09:35, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support, per TheJoebro64 and Czar's comments. --Niwi3 (talk) 12:58, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support: It will be sad to see the article go, but I agree. EthanRossie2000 discuss 14:10, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support - per Joe and Czar, though with no prejudice towards spinning it back out if someone does it right. She’s a pretty popular character. I would think the sourcing is out there. We just have to write it according to that, and not to every 5 word passing mention in Sonic game reviews. Sergecross73 msg me 14:32, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support without prejudice to recreation if sources do come up. Amy Rose has always been a tough case of does she have enough or not enough coverage - about the most I could add at this point would be we have maybe two lines about her character design in Sonic CD. I think she did around the time a million and one Sonic fictional character articles and settings were merged in 2007-2008, but not now in 2018 when our standards have risen. As I have found in my years on Wikipedia, though, reliable sources do spring up over time, especially with a number of websites and magazines doing new articles that are retrospectives on a regular basis. Perhaps in the future more significant real-world coverage of her impact will be there, but for now the due weight in reliable sources just isn't there. Red Phoenix talk 13:02, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: Have any of you looked at the GA version of the article I linked to above? Surely, there's some sources that were since removed from the article that could be re-added, like this and this. And don't go assuming that's unreliable, just because it's from YouTube. These videos are by Anita Sarkeesian. Now, I do agree that the article currently relies too much on primary sources, but that's not a reason to merge. Kokoro20 (talk) 13:55, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- I looked at the GA version of the article and it's not much better. The WP:VG notability standards for fictional characters have been raised since the article was promoted and the last AFD discussion, and maybe it needs to be reflected in MOS somewhere. Problems I see with the GA version (and current version) are: 1) Not written in primarily out-of-universe style with secondary sources to meet WP:VGSCOPE#6 2) the coatrack issue Czar shared and 3) Lack of notability, as none of the Sarkeesian videos or other sources are about Amy primarily (except one Joe shared). She is only discussed through passing mentions in articles about the Sonic series, or female characters. TarkusABtalk 15:18, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Additionally, it’s good to note that (ironically maybe) notability is not a requirement for the GA process, and the editor who wrote this and brought it to GA (Tezero) had extremely lenient views on notability, far less so than the usual requirements. Sergecross73 msg me 15:54, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, this article falls pretty squarely in line with the issues I discussed in this essay. What coverage are the sources? Passing mentions can look good, but it's all fluff and not actually significant coverage. There aren't enough sources explicitly about the character to justify coverage outside of as part of her universe. Red Phoenix talk 15:58, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- But I must ask, @TarkusAB:, who is raising these standards and why? The standards for character articles were already pretty high in the last proposal in 2014. Contrary to popular belief, sources do not need to be primarily about the subject. They need to be significantly about the subject. There's a difference. Kokoro20 (talk) 16:44, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- I can't tell you a who and why, all I can say is it's a trend I've seen on VG character articles the past couple years. That's why I say it should be reflected in MOS. TarkusABtalk 16:52, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- I don’t think the standards changed as much as there’s more experienced editors actually observing and enforcing them now. Sergecross73 msg me 17:54, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- But I must ask, @TarkusAB:, who is raising these standards and why? The standards for character articles were already pretty high in the last proposal in 2014. Contrary to popular belief, sources do not need to be primarily about the subject. They need to be significantly about the subject. There's a difference. Kokoro20 (talk) 16:44, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, this article falls pretty squarely in line with the issues I discussed in this essay. What coverage are the sources? Passing mentions can look good, but it's all fluff and not actually significant coverage. There aren't enough sources explicitly about the character to justify coverage outside of as part of her universe. Red Phoenix talk 15:58, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Additionally, it’s good to note that (ironically maybe) notability is not a requirement for the GA process, and the editor who wrote this and brought it to GA (Tezero) had extremely lenient views on notability, far less so than the usual requirements. Sergecross73 msg me 15:54, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- I dug into the page history and it turns out the Sarkeesian videos were removed from the article as the result of a lengthy WT:VG discussion. The consensus was that Tropes vs. Women can only be included in articles if it was covered by a third-party RS like IGN or Polygon in accordance with WP:SPS. JOEBRO64 20:04, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, so that explains it. Fair enough. Well anyway, here's a few pieces I've found after doing some searching. Though, I'm not sure if the latter two could be reliable. Those, combined with this and this, which are already cited there, I'm quite convinced that Amy is deserving of her own article. What do you think, @TheJoebro64:? Kokoro20 (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- You’re really grasping here. A lot of these aren’t really helping much. I mean, short listicle entries about cosplaying as her, or a “character ranking” placement that’s only ranking sonic series characters? That’s some really weak stuff... Sergecross73 msg me 18:01, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- Whether or not the listicle is about Sonic characters, it satisfies what we look for in notability. It shows that Amy is one of the more discussed Sonic characters, and we even got a piece about Amy for the upcoming Sonic movie. You know, looking back at the previous merge proposals, I could at least get behind the ones we had for Cream, Silver and the Babylon Rouges. Those were rightfully merged back here. But Amy? No. Kokoro20 (talk) 18:33, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- See the Rosenberg solution—listicles almost always contain information that is trivial; they usually just recap plot details while throwing some comments in about the character without actually providing significant discussion. As the closer of that discussion said, "Fictional characters qualifying for standalone Wikipedia articles are those that have major roles in multiple fictional works, have much longer reliable source coverage discussing them specifically, or have a real world impact, ideally all of these at once." Amy fails the last two; the other Sonic characters who have articles have been subject to notable independent discussion and have had some sort of real world impact. Sonic is a significant part of gaming history and his importance to Sega and rivalry with Mario have been extensively covered, Tails has been discussed because of his role as a sidekick and received a few games of his own, Eggman is a classic video game villain, Knuckles has been discussed for his impact on the series (people disagree if it was good or bad) and internet culture, and the Chaotix and Shadow have starred in their own games and have been discussed as emblematic of the series' problems. I'm sad to say this but I don't think Amy has been covered enough to be independently notable from the series. JOEBRO64 20:47, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- I've seen that. In fact, I was one of the few who supported Ken Rosenberg potentially getting his own article. I'm still seeing an unfair bias against listicles here. Nowhere in WP:N is that second point supported. All we require is something more than a passing mention. Going by your last argument, Amy does have impact like those other characters. She is an example of love interests in video games (one-sided in this case, but whatever). Kokoro20 (talk) 00:00, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- There’s no “unfair bias”. The GNG requires significant coverage. But how we identify that varies. Some consider listicles significant coverage. Others call it a passing mention. Others judge it on a case-by-case basis. It just depends on where people draw the line. It’s not like there’s some hard objective line where you go “Okay there’s 4 sentences so it it officially qualifies as significant coverage.” Sergecross73 msg me 00:31, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with you on the love interest thing, but the question is if it's been covered significantly by reliable sources. From my searches, I don't think it has. JOEBRO64 01:47, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- I've added two sources about Sonic being her love-interest in the article (two of the ones I listed above), @TheJoebro64:. Kokoro20 (talk) 17:01, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- It's a bit helpful, but they're still only short list entries (both only like 1/5 of the entire article) and don't really discuss why Amy's independently notable. It's... not much. JOEBRO64 20:58, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- I've added two sources about Sonic being her love-interest in the article (two of the ones I listed above), @TheJoebro64:. Kokoro20 (talk) 17:01, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- I've seen that. In fact, I was one of the few who supported Ken Rosenberg potentially getting his own article. I'm still seeing an unfair bias against listicles here. Nowhere in WP:N is that second point supported. All we require is something more than a passing mention. Going by your last argument, Amy does have impact like those other characters. She is an example of love interests in video games (one-sided in this case, but whatever). Kokoro20 (talk) 00:00, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- See the Rosenberg solution—listicles almost always contain information that is trivial; they usually just recap plot details while throwing some comments in about the character without actually providing significant discussion. As the closer of that discussion said, "Fictional characters qualifying for standalone Wikipedia articles are those that have major roles in multiple fictional works, have much longer reliable source coverage discussing them specifically, or have a real world impact, ideally all of these at once." Amy fails the last two; the other Sonic characters who have articles have been subject to notable independent discussion and have had some sort of real world impact. Sonic is a significant part of gaming history and his importance to Sega and rivalry with Mario have been extensively covered, Tails has been discussed because of his role as a sidekick and received a few games of his own, Eggman is a classic video game villain, Knuckles has been discussed for his impact on the series (people disagree if it was good or bad) and internet culture, and the Chaotix and Shadow have starred in their own games and have been discussed as emblematic of the series' problems. I'm sad to say this but I don't think Amy has been covered enough to be independently notable from the series. JOEBRO64 20:47, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- Whether or not the listicle is about Sonic characters, it satisfies what we look for in notability. It shows that Amy is one of the more discussed Sonic characters, and we even got a piece about Amy for the upcoming Sonic movie. You know, looking back at the previous merge proposals, I could at least get behind the ones we had for Cream, Silver and the Babylon Rouges. Those were rightfully merged back here. But Amy? No. Kokoro20 (talk) 18:33, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- You’re really grasping here. A lot of these aren’t really helping much. I mean, short listicle entries about cosplaying as her, or a “character ranking” placement that’s only ranking sonic series characters? That’s some really weak stuff... Sergecross73 msg me 18:01, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, so that explains it. Fair enough. Well anyway, here's a few pieces I've found after doing some searching. Though, I'm not sure if the latter two could be reliable. Those, combined with this and this, which are already cited there, I'm quite convinced that Amy is deserving of her own article. What do you think, @TheJoebro64:? Kokoro20 (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- I looked at the GA version of the article and it's not much better. The WP:VG notability standards for fictional characters have been raised since the article was promoted and the last AFD discussion, and maybe it needs to be reflected in MOS somewhere. Problems I see with the GA version (and current version) are: 1) Not written in primarily out-of-universe style with secondary sources to meet WP:VGSCOPE#6 2) the coatrack issue Czar shared and 3) Lack of notability, as none of the Sarkeesian videos or other sources are about Amy primarily (except one Joe shared). She is only discussed through passing mentions in articles about the Sonic series, or female characters. TarkusABtalk 15:18, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- Keep / oppose merge - since the last (failed) merge proposal for Amy, the state of the article has not changed. Furthermore, WP:NFICT has not been changed. What has changed however are certain editors' personal interpretations of said policy to, dare I say it, the point of manifest absurdity, when an article such as this one with coverage in 16+ RS (not counting the ones Kokoro20 found above and the Sarkeesian videos which have been removed) is seen as GNG-non compliant. If this article was hypothetically a BLP, its number of sources and notability would be unquestioned - and those articles are supposed to be held to a higher standard than the rest of Wikipedia, not the other way around... Satellizer el Bridget (Talk) 12:02, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- Come on, you know better than to lean on WP:OSE arguments like that. It’s bad even by OSE standards. Citing how you feel a hypothetical discussion would play out on a hypothetical BLP article as some sort of reason on how we should act here? That’s not a persuasive argument even outside of Wikipedia policy. How would you like me to counter that? Shall I dream up a few fictional discussions that end in a merge? Sergecross73 msg me 15:27, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- He makes a good point anyway. We hold character articles to a higher standard than most of Wikipedia, when it really shouldn't be that way (and as the essay states, such arguments can be valid, depending on the case). And even disregarding his "OSE" argument, his other arguments still stand. Kokoro20 (talk) 16:46, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- My main point was that I consider the sourcing already in the article to meet GNG - simple as that, and there's not much more for me to elaborate on this. My BLP comment was more offhand food for thought on how BLPs are supposed to be held to the highest of standards on Wikipedia and even they don't have to meet criteria additional to the GNG such as listicles not contributing to notability and notability "independent" of their parental media/accomplishments, which, alongside "real-world" notability, are all restrictions not supported by any Wikipedia guideline/policy I'm aware of. I wouldn't say then that it's an OSE argument - OSE would be more along the lines of "John Doe's article had the same number of sources as this and got kept!".
- As an additional note - and just to be clear this goes beyond my rationale for keeping Amy's page - I'd strongly support a sitewide RFC on listicles, notability "independent" of something else, and "real-world" notability for fictional elements, as it's not something WP:VG can decide by itself since its ramifications go far beyond its scope. The counterargument to this of course would be that such restrictions only apply to video game fictional character articles, which would be admitting to a bizarre double standard. Satellizer el Bridget (Talk) 21:35, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- If you’d like to spend your time organizing a site-wide discussion on listicles and significant coverage, help yourself, but what you’re complaining about isn’t WP:VG specific. I participate in AFD discussions for a variety of subjects, and proposing this sort of listicle junk wouldn’t typically save articles from deletion. That sort of sourcing wouldn’t save a song article from being redirected to an album article either. As I mentioned above, WP:VG isn’t so much more strict as they just have an active group of editors monitoring and enforcing things. Sergecross73 msg me 22:36, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - I just added new content about the character based on three secondary sources that were entirely or substantially about her. There is sufficient coverage in secondary sources to satisfy the notability criterion. Video game character articles should not be held to a higher notability standard than other articles. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 00:47, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- Just added yet more content from another secondary source. All the content I have added in the past day has come from reliable secondary sources that talk about this character far more than merely "passing mentions." It's not difficult to find and cite these sources if you do more than a superficial Google search. I understand it's easier not to do this work and simply !vote for deletion, but I think it will be a shame if this article is deleted based on an uniformed "feeling" that this topic doesn't mean the GNG. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 18:59, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- The stuff you've added is helpful but I still don't think it's enough yet. Three of the sources are far more relevant to Sonic Mania Adventures than Amy (and the Game Informer article doesn't even mention her by name), and two of them were interviews (and thus WP:PRIMARY). Believe me, as a Sonic fan I personally don't want this article to be redirected, but the sourcing as it stands and from my own research is weak. JOEBRO64 19:08, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- The direct content of the interviews constitute primary source material, yes, but the interview content itself was published in third-party secondary sources that are independent of the subject. I will agree that the Game Informer article is not the strongest source, but the ComicBook.com source contains significant content about her role in Sonic Mania Adventures, and the GNG does not discount sources simply because they discuss how the topic at hand relates to another topic; if anything, discussion among secondary sources about the topic in multiple contexts counts in favor of notability, not against. 19:42, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, agreed. Nice finds, @Prototime:! I knew Amy had to have more coverage than what was cited in the article already, and that proves it. It would indeed be a real shame to see the article merged with all that's been added since this RFC started. Kokoro20 (talk) 22:48, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- I've re-added Sarkeesian's commentary to the article via a non-SPS academic source along with some additional commentary. If someone could take a look at non-English coverage - especially Japanese, I daresay there's a lot more sources to be found there - that'll also be great. Satellizer el Bridget (Talk) 04:08, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, agreed. Nice finds, @Prototime:! I knew Amy had to have more coverage than what was cited in the article already, and that proves it. It would indeed be a real shame to see the article merged with all that's been added since this RFC started. Kokoro20 (talk) 22:48, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- The direct content of the interviews constitute primary source material, yes, but the interview content itself was published in third-party secondary sources that are independent of the subject. I will agree that the Game Informer article is not the strongest source, but the ComicBook.com source contains significant content about her role in Sonic Mania Adventures, and the GNG does not discount sources simply because they discuss how the topic at hand relates to another topic; if anything, discussion among secondary sources about the topic in multiple contexts counts in favor of notability, not against. 19:42, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- The stuff you've added is helpful but I still don't think it's enough yet. Three of the sources are far more relevant to Sonic Mania Adventures than Amy (and the Game Informer article doesn't even mention her by name), and two of them were interviews (and thus WP:PRIMARY). Believe me, as a Sonic fan I personally don't want this article to be redirected, but the sourcing as it stands and from my own research is weak. JOEBRO64 19:08, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- Just added yet more content from another secondary source. All the content I have added in the past day has come from reliable secondary sources that talk about this character far more than merely "passing mentions." It's not difficult to find and cite these sources if you do more than a superficial Google search. I understand it's easier not to do this work and simply !vote for deletion, but I think it will be a shame if this article is deleted based on an uniformed "feeling" that this topic doesn't mean the GNG. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 18:59, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- None of the added text changes my assessment that the character is not the subject of significant coverage. Adding more mentions of the character (as unparaphrased quotes) will not change that, especially when those mentions come from unreliable sources. czar 03:48, 2 February 2019 (UTC)