I admit that trusting in your offer to ventilate on you page was a big mistake, as well as asking you for an opinion, and in trusting that I actually had a relationship with you that I could openly express to you my deep feeling of hurt to you in an email. I humbly apologize for those huge mistakes. I openly published my email to you for everyone to see. I hope that is of satisfaction to you. I am very sorry. In the future we will have no contact what so every, so these sorts of horrible transgressions on my part will not occur again. Purhapss with these assurances, you would be will to drop you vindicative statements in the futures. I profoundly regret each and every interaction I engaged in with you. Please, let me go on with my life with out your continuing to demaind your pound of of my flesh and blood. Regards, —[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''Mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 19:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Revision as of 19:02, 4 February 2009
I am outraged that the AdminWatch initiative to level the playing field between the standards of behaviour expected of administrators and non-administrators was taken to MFD. It may work, it may not, but the defensive attitudes being displayed by some administrators leave a bad taste in the mouth. No wonder that so many editors simply walk away from the project in the face of unchecked administrator abuse.
December has been a very successful month, with lots of article promoted, and hopefully more to come in January:
Promoted articles:
Scout Moor Wind Farm
Scout Moor Wind Farm is England's largest onshore wind farm. Although it was opposed by environmentalists, the wind farm was opened on 26 September 2008 and provides enough power for 40,000 homes.
The B of the Bang is the sculpture that was erected to commemorate the 2002 Commonwealth Games and for a while was the largest sculpture in the UK. And because of safety concerns, it may be dismantled.
Current nominations: January looks set to be very busy, with Chadderton, Cine City, Withington, and Nico Ditch at WP:GAN, the Greater Manchester portal up for Featured Portal status, and Sale a Featured Article Candidate. Please keep an eye on these articles and if any issues are raised in their reviews help to address them.
Abram featured in the DYK section of the front page last month. For details of the DYKs by the project that have appeared on the main page, see Did you know?
The project has a new tool, a watchlist of all our project's articles. This should help us keep an eye on them and spot new editors who might want to join our project. Also, Jza84 has developed a map of WP:GM's GAs and FAs. It shows a gap in coverage in the north west of the county, something we should try to change.
WikiProject Greater Manchester is still the leading local British WikiProject! As far as Featured and Good content goes, our lead is extending, with 10 and 16 more FAs than Yorkshire and London respectively, and 13 and 14 more GAs than Yorkshire and London! If you see an article that you think deserves to be a GA, don't hesitate to nominate it at WP:GAC!
WT:GM: The project's talk page is a forum for discussion and to keep up to date with the latest project developments and initiatives put it on your watchlist! Recently there have been discussions on articles to be deleted, the congestion charge, how to get members involved and working together, and plenty of other stuff.
Get a lead/static image in every infobox of every town in the county.
Two of our aims were crossed off as Scout Moor Wind Farm became an FA, and Radcliffe, Greater Manchester a GA. If you think you can help improve an article, be bold and get editing! Although these are the project's explicit short term aims, we endeavour to "improving all Wikipedia articles that are concerned with Greater Manchester", so every edit is valuable.
Member News
There are now 46 active members of WikiProject Greater Manchester (with a further 14 members inactive since 1 July 2008) as 1 new member joined the project in December:
Welcome from everyone, and let's remember to make new members feel included in the project! If you need help, you can go to the project talk page, or perhaps look at the list of members to see if anyone can help. The project is always looking for new members, and if you spot an editor who makes good changes to Greater Machester related articles why not invite them to join up by adding this template to their talk page: {{SUBST:Welcome WPGM}}.
Thanks
A big "thank you" goes to all the editors who help make this WikiProject what it is; no edit goes unnoticed.
Reminders...
Images! There are some good images around, but more are still needed if we're going to get a "lead/static image in every infobox of every town in the county"! The requested photographs category lists some of the articles needing images.
The project currently has 35 members. A warm welcome to our newest members: ARBAY, Coldmachine and Floorhugger.
Cheshire's current divisions
Preparation for the local government changes in April is ongoing. You are invited to join the WP:2009ENGLAND taskforce to coordinate the necessary changes to articles, categories, maps, infoboxes etc across articles on England. Within Cheshire, the articles for the new unitary authorities Cheshire East and Cheshire West and Chester have already been created and need expansion.
The Cheshire Portal has been converted to use random selections. There are currently 8 selected articles, 8 selected biographies, 8 selected pictures, 13 sets of four DYKs (52 in total) & 6 quotations. The topics box has also been reformatted & expanded, to highlight more Cheshire content.
Espresso Addict has proposed aiming to bring the portal up to Featured Portal status in 2009. Current standards for featured portals suggest having 15–20 items in each section. The main content that needs to be developed is biographies, preferably of GA class or above and with a reasonable quality free image. Lots of well-known people have associations with Cheshire, including the Victorian novelist Elizabeth Gaskell, Nelson's mistress Emma Hamilton & mountaineer George Mallory; a list of suggested biographies for project members to develop is here.
The Cheshire Project Collaboration for the next few months is Crewe. In this time, we aim to expand it beyond its current start-class, perhaps taking it to WP:GAC.
This is the first edition of the Cheshire newsletter, which aims to inform members about what is happening across the project and to facilitate cooperation between people to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Cheshire. To help with this, a questionnaire is attached about how you see the Cheshire WikiProject developing over 2009. Finally, if you want to edit the next edition of this newsletter, please volunteer!
Delivered on 19 January 2009 by Nev1. If you do not wish to receive future newsletters, please add two *s by your username on the Project Mainpage.
Questionnaire
In an effort to assess the progress of Wikiproject Cheshire, it has been decided to send a questionnaire to members. To answer, please copy this questionnaire and paste your answers on the answer page. While participation is, of course, not compulsory, thoughtful answers will help the project to develop and improve. Thank you.
1. The project is always looking for new members, so we want to find out which ways of attracting and approaching potential members work best. Do you remember how and why you joined?
Answer:
2. How would you describe your involvement in the project? What activities do you undertake and how often do you edit Cheshire-related article?
Answer:
3. Do you feel like you receive adequate support/contact from project members?
Answer:
4. The project talk page is intended to be the hub of the project, where members discuss articles and help each other improving them. Until very recently it has been almost inactive, but do you check the project talk page?
Answer:
4a. If the talk page was more active, would you get involved in discussions there?
Answer:
5. When viewing Cheshire-related articles, are there any issues that have stood out as needing attention or frustrated you? (Traditional counties POV, poor coverage about a particular subject, vandalism going unnoticed etc)
Answer:
6. Maintaining the Cheshire portal is one of the Cheshire WikiProject's main aims, providing a display of the best and most up to date articles that are part of the project. There is currently a drive to promote it to featured status, but input from a wide range of members is needed. Do you have the portal on your watchlist?
8. Finally, are there any improvements or initiatives you'd like to see WP:CHES undertake, or general comments you'd like to make?
Answer:
Latest RFA thread
Malleus, I always drop by a talk page when I say something in a thread that someone might interpret as a put-down ... I never consciously put anyone down on Wikipedia, and I want to make sure we're clear. I talked about people talking with "moral authority" at WT:RFA#Arbitrary break about how arbitrarily everyone is dismissing keepscase's perspective. I agree with you that people should never be silenced or put down on Wikipedia, but I also support the idea of looking at anything that would improve RFA, looking for consensus, and writing it down. My sense is that consensus is leaning in the direction of letting people ask whatever question they want to at RFA, but that whatever it is that's making people uncomfortable might be dealt with by letting candidates know in the RFA instructions that it's a minority position that "silly" questions are useful in RFAs. Whatever your position is, I'd appreciate your input in the thread. (Watchlisting) - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 18:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Btw, my viewpoint has evolved on the point you brought up in my RFA. At the time, it felt unfair; now I think that you were right. No one person should be saying, "if you're thinking of RFA, then do this". What will or won't help someone pass RFA is for everyone at RFA to decide, and what does or doesn't constitute good copyediting is for copyeditors in general to decide. In my defense, I think my viewpoint was in line with expectations at the time, but I pride myself on thinking for myself, and I should have known better ... I do know better, now. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 23:54, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting to see you say that. I suspect that you and I are very different from each other in our outlook on life. I have never been a joiner, so I don't much care what the consensus is about anything, I only care about what I think is right. The world is big enough for both of us though, and more importantly it needs both of us. Go in peace my son. :-) --MalleusFatuorum00:03, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've decided to put Arley Hall on hold as a GAC for the time being because of the website change, so instead I've switched my attention to its builder, Rowland Egerton-Warburton. I didn't think he was much of a subject for an article until someone else started one - and then I discovered he is much more interesting than I had appreciated. So I think I'll go for GAC with what it's become. May I have your comments, suggestions for improvement, and of course the usual copy editing. Many thanks in advance. Peter. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 13:05, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the work you've done and for your opinion. Now, more advice please - into which subsection does it fall? There's no section for biography (or for wealthy Cheshire landowners); is there enough art/architecture for that section or should we settle for miscellaneous? Peter I. Vardy (talk) 17:51, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for working so hard on getting the article to GA! Great to see it get there after only about a week as well. And you're a bloody good and thorough copyeditor too. I don't know if you'd be interested, but I asked a copyeditor to give the Stella Power Station article a going over way back in November, and it'd be nice if you could give it a similar treatment to the Blyth article one day if you could. Best wishes Fintan264 (talk) 23:50, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You're very kind, it was a pleasure. I love to see articles this at GAN, on subjects that would otherwise be lost and forgotten if editors like you didn't take the trouble to care. I'll be happy to take a look at Stella. --MalleusFatuorum01:10, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is the version [1] of Stella Power Station that I award GA-status back in October 2008. It bares little similarity to the version to which you commented: "I'm astonished it was listed as a GA". These changes, between the award of GA and your series of improvements, can also be verified from the article's history page.Pyrotec (talk) 16:45, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, If you had any time to take a look at the River Parrett it would be really helpful. The GA reviewer has commented about the prose, particularly in the course section, which could do with a copyedit.— Rodtalk12:29, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've made a few changes to the Course section, hopefully enough to satisfy your reviewer. If there are still prose problems that need to be dealt with before GA listing, let me know and I'll do what I can to help. --MalleusFatuorum14:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am curious why the wikilink to England was removed with the comment "shouldn't wikilink common terms". Let's suppose a user in China sees the wind farm article and wonders "Where is it located? Oh, it's in England. Where is that?" Isn't it a good usage of information to give Wikipedia readers an easy link to the information they seek? After all, the purpose of an encyclopedia is to make information available to its readers, is it not. As a regular wiki patroller, I find that the vast number of geographic articles identify the country with a wikilink in the intro, so there is ample precedent for such wikilinks. To paraphrase your earlier edit summary "one man's common term ..." Cheers. Truthanado (talk) 18:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I find it rather a stretch to be asked to believe that someone who speaks English has no idea about England. But wikipedia articles ought not to include wikilinks just because they can, but because they add value to the article. I take it that you are familiar with the Manual of Style on the subject of linking, and the recent discussions that have taken place around the linking of common words and major geographical features? I quote: "It is generally not appropriate to link ... items that would be familiar to most readers, such as the names of major geographic features and locations ...". I submit that "England" can be considered a "major geographical feature". For the few to whom the word "England" remains a mystery, there is always the search box. --MalleusFatuorum18:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware of WP:MOS and have been involved in several discussions there. The cited text goes on to say "except if they are particularly relevant to the topic of the article", which applies in this case; it's relevant that the wind farm is in England. I guess I also subscribe to the earlier MOS quote "Think carefully before you remove a link altogether—what may seem like an irrelevant link to you may be useful to other readers." Let's just say we disagree on this topic and leave it there. Happy February. Cheers. Truthanado (talk) 15:10, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We most certainly do disagree on this point. The article is about wind farms, not the well-known country known as England. I thank you for your warning, but I will continue to remove such irrelevant links wherever I find them, whether that's agreeable to you or not. --MalleusFatuorum15:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think the article meets the GA criteria, although its subject is a staggeringly trite book. Specifically, no, I don't particularly think that the "10,000 hour Rule" is mentioned too frequently. It just seems that way because it's bleedin' obvious, I think. Looks like the review's been a bit of a marathon though. --MalleusFatuorum18:49, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your advice. I passed it as GA. However, I think mentioning the "10,000 hour Rule" seven times is at least five times too many. Wikipedia will take a step up when it starts discouraging selfindulgent (and opinionated) writing. The POV of the article is the type that occurs when an editor is over invested in the subject matter and cannot, for whatever reason, maintain distance. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 01:26, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Sir. I will not. I will comment and dewatch. I apologize deeply for the posting of a request for your opinion. Let us forget it ever happened. I will not post here again. Forgive me, please. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 03:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay okay you two, get a room. :P But seriously, the way I read the above is that Malleus was stating that Mattise, if you have doubts about passing something then you should have confidence in your intuition and not pass it. You shouldn't have to feel like you must pass something that you honestly don't think should pass, even if its only a small doubt. So, lets stop the whole aggressive retorts and continue helping the GA process. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mattisse does great work at GA, and I try to help out there when I can as well, but I have no idea what has caused this animosity, and no interest in it in any event. Wikipedia's a big place; it's very easy to avoid those who (probably inadvertently) rub you up the wrong way, for whatever reason. But asking for advice on their talk pages and then getting all huffy when you get it most likely isn't an optimal strategy. --MalleusFatuorum22:00, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
WikiProject Greater Manchester February Newsletter, Issue XIV
With the new(ish) year, I think it's right to look back over the year just gone. Last year was massive for our project, with lots of successes building on a successful 2007. In terms of featured content, we became the leading wikiproject in 2007, but 2008 saw us cement our status as one of the UK's leading wikiprojects: having started the year with most FAs (two more than London and Yorkshire), but falling behind in terms of GAs, we now have more FAs and GAs than any project under WP:UKGEO. While our aim is to improve all articles related to Greater Manchester, not collect trophies, we now lead the field by a long way and everyone deserves to feel proud for their part.
We've had articles featured on the main page, both in DYK? and as today's Featured Article, but success is more than a matter of numbers; the project has grown into a community where editors join together to provide information and improve Wikipedia. A great example of this is the work our project did on Denshaw. Back in April, it was targeted by vandals and as a result was featured in national news. We stepped in and improved and protected the article, showing what WP:GM is capable of. This is undoubtedly the noisiest project in the UK and it's strength comes from the wide range of interests of its many members. We've even been so successful that we were accused of forming a claque.
During 2008, our numbers have increased and, while some have left, we've welcomed many strong editors who will help bring the project more success. With so much emphasis on Good and Featured articles, it's sometimes easy to forget that a lot of effort goes into articles that don't get recognition. The table below shows that the number of B-class articles has increased since the start of 2008, and that the proportion of stub-class articles under our project has gone down.
My own experience of Wikipedia has been positive and enjoyable, especially due to WP:GM. I've worked on interesting subjects with nice people, and hopefully the experience is similar for others. We've covered subjects as varied and interesting as castles, mummies, computers, Olympic swimmers, and wind farms, stuff I probably wouldn’t know about if it wasn’t for Wikipedia. I enjoy being a part of this project, and as we approach the WP:GM's second birthday (24 February) I'm sure it will continue to go from strength to strength in 2009.
Would you like to write the next newsletter for WP:GM?? Please nominate yourself at WT:GM! New editors are always welcome!
Project News
January has been a very successful month, with lots of article promoted, and hopefully more to come in January:
Promoted articles:
View of Broadway in Chadderton
Chadderton is a town in the Metropolitan Borough of Oldham. It has a long and interesting history beyond that of its mill town façade; a Celtic hill fort, a medieval lordship and still an important industrial and metropolitan town.
Nico Ditch stretches from Ashton-under-Lyne to Stretford and according to legend was dug in a single night to defend against the Danes.
Article news: Cine City, Withington is at WP:GAN, please keep an eye on these articles and if any issues are raised in their reviews help to address them. Unfortunately, despite User:Joshii's effort the Greater Manchester portal did not become featured.
Get a lead/static image in every infobox of every town in the county.
Member News
There are now 48 active members of WikiProject Greater Manchester (with a further 14 members inactive since 1 July 2008) as 2 new members joined the project in January:
Welcome from everyone, and let's remember to make new members feel included in the project! If you need help, you can go to the project talk page, or perhaps look at the list of members to see if anyone can help. The project is always looking for new members, and if you spot an editor who makes good changes to Greater Machester related articles why not invite them to join up by adding this template to their talk page: {{SUBST:Welcome WPGM}}.
Thanks
A big "thank you" goes to all the editors who help make this WikiProject what it is; no edit goes unnoticed.
Reminders...
Images! There are some good images around, but more are still needed if we're going to get a "lead/static image in every infobox of every town in the county"! The requested photographs category lists some of the articles needing images.
This gave me a laugh. I don't know if it will display properly. Seems like they just translated all of our work into some kind of mysterious language of squiggles. :D Ottava Rima (talk) 03:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I assume they will go after the whole thing based on their copy and pasting of the reference section. :) Its nice to see that Johnson will now have an impact on India. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Robert Burdon Stoker
Hi Malleus! I've started to add material to this article, following your contribution. Have added a reference section, notes and bibliography, but cannot sort out a conflict with the previous layout. Please could you look at it and rescue the position, so that I can add further material and references? Regards RuthAS (talk) 14:26, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll make a start on the history stuff tomorrow (I can also throw in a bit about governance history as well). Things have been "interesting" IRL today, and so I need to sleep now. DDStretch (talk)23:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
WikiSpeak
Hi, I came upon your (un)official 'insider-guide' on Wikipedia, when it was casually mentioned by a distinguished guest speaker during a public talk on Web 2.0 development which I attended recently. I had a good laugh reading it, and have reccomended it as a 'must read' to others too. I've some queries in mind and would greatly appreciate if you could satisfy my curiousity on the following:
What motivated you in the first place in starting WikiSpeak?
Are there any future plans in store for WikiSpeak, like WikiSpeak 2.0 or any similar undertaking in the near future?
My motivation was to relieve the frustration caused by the pompous inflation of language here on wikipidia by self-important, self-appointed authorities. Where else are you likely to come across the word "redact", for instance? Also to poke fun at Americanisms like "my bad", when used by English schoolboys in a misguided attempt to sound "cool".
I've got no plans for any similar undertaking, but then neither did I have any plans for wikispeak. It was simply born from a moment of frustration. My hope for wikispeak is that others will build on my small beginning.
You can subscribe to an RSS feed for changes to the page here.
Thank you for your prompt reply. In case you may ask, the speaker I mentioned above is someone whom you may have known in Wikipedia all these while. He was invited by a tertiary institution as one of the panel of speakers to give a public talk on the security, economical and social issues that are associated with Web 2.0 technology. Due to privacy reason and his affiliation to a certain govt body, I'm not at a liberty to divulge who he is, but I believe you could be able to second guess who the person I'm referring to should you try to recall carefully. On a final note, do keep up your good work and take care minding your steps here. -- Kulikah (talk) 16:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's great, you are strong with the Force too. As the Japanese used to say: "One should be mindful not to disturb (or tempt) a sleeping dog or its owner too". Bye. -- Kulikah (talk) 02:06, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Believe me, I have the utmost respect for the person of whom I think you are speaking, and would never dream of awakening that old staffie. ;-) --MalleusFatuorum02:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Based on your past discussions above, it seem like you have stepped on the toes of almost everyone here except for the person I was referring to earlier - It's your past good karma I think ;-) He did not make any negative comments about you, except in referring you as "an English gentleman" who initiated the WikiSpeak project when someone asked for his view on Wikipedia during the Q & A session. On a serious note, looking at his well researched presentation, it isn't hard to imagine the level of his technical skills and insight, the influence and official links he has (like access to govt statistics/officials) even though he has always keep a low profile in the public eye. I think we should end this thread now as it wouldn't be nice should any of the 'watchers' informed him that we are discussing about him here. Adieu! -- Kulikah (talk) 03:33, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Based on your past discussions above, it seem like you have stepped on the toes of almost everyone here ...". Yep, I think you got that right. More like a bull in a china shop than an English gentleman. :-) --MalleusFatuorum03:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I admit that trusting in your offer to ventilate on you page was a big mistake, as well as asking you for an opinion, and in trusting that I actually had a relationship with you that I could openly express to you my deep feeling of hurt to you in an email. I humbly apologize for those huge mistakes. I openly published my email to you for everyone to see. I hope that is of satisfaction to you. I am very sorry. In the future we will have no contact what so every, so these sorts of horrible transgressions on my part will not occur again. Purhapss with these assurances, you would be will to drop you vindicative statements in the futures. I profoundly regret each and every interaction I engaged in with you. Please, let me go on with my life with out your continuing to demaind your pound of of my flesh and blood. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 19:02, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]