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: I see that Coren is as rubbish as ever: ''engaging in battleground behavior on their talk page'' is deliberate disinformation, or possibly a confession of ignorance; it is hard to know which is worse. As for the implied equivalence between me and MN: I reject it, of course (@SP: thanks for noticing this obvious point, even if it was too subtle for the arbs. Please continue your attempts to make RD see sense). Still, there is one saving grace of this nonsense: we'll find out whether Carc's offer was just a waste of time, or not [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley#top|talk]]) 22:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC) |
: I see that Coren is as rubbish as ever: ''engaging in battleground behavior on their talk page'' is deliberate disinformation, or possibly a confession of ignorance; it is hard to know which is worse. As for the implied equivalence between me and MN: I reject it, of course (@SP: thanks for noticing this obvious point, even if it was too subtle for the arbs. Please continue your attempts to make RD see sense). Still, there is one saving grace of this nonsense: we'll find out whether Carc's offer was just a waste of time, or not [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley#top|talk]]) 22:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC) |
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== Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Ling.Nut == |
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Just say no. [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Ling.Nut]] [[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] ([[User talk:William M. Connolley#top|talk]]) 22:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:12, 2 November 2010
The Holding Pen
On hold
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A reader writes:
I'm not sure, but it sounds odd. You can beat me to it if you like William M. Connolley (talk) 18:09, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
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Your ArbCom userpage comment
Need to finish this off |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I haven't looked to see which arb was accused of being a "fool," but am curious how would "Stephen Bain should not be entrusted with anything more valuable than a ball of string" would be received. I'd like to know before I say that. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC) |
Ditto |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This arbitration case has been closed, and the final decision is available in full at the link above. As a result of this case:
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Hersfold (t/a/c) 22:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC) I'm am sorry to see that your adminship has been revoked. I believe that our circumstances are similar in a way. I too was once an admin and lost my tools mainly due to conflicts on articles related to the events surrounding the 9/11 attacks. I know that the vast majority of my content creation and all my FA's were done after I was desysopped...with that said I am hoping that we can still look forward to your wisdom and guidance in those areas you have so instrumental in and that you will continue to help us build as reliable a reference base as we can achieve. Best wishes to you!--MONGO 03:24, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
I ask that you please accept my nomination to regain your administrative rights at RFA. 99.191.73.2 (talk) 13:23, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Interesting[3] Hardly surprising that arbcom wants to keep their mess as far from view as possible. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk)
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Current
Thermal underwear
Idealized greenhouse model, or the section below
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![]() May I ask a question? I stress that I am not trying to do any original research, but only want to improve the GW article by explaining what is fundamental to the AGW hypothesis. I don't think the current article really explains it very well. My question: I did some Googling and the Stefan-Boltzmann equation (or rather a derivative of it) seems to be fundamental. But there are two versions of it, as follows:
where alpha is albedo, S0 is a constant solar radiative flux (units W/m^2), T is temp in K, and sigma is a constant. The two sides of the equation both have units W/m^2. In the first equation e is 'emissivity' which is unitless and is the ratio of energy radiated by a particular material to energy radiated by a black body at the same temperature. I think of it as an 'underpants factor'. You have a black body throbbing with radiation, which will cool unless you keep it warm. So you put some underpants on it, to keep the cold out, i.e. stop it radiating so much. Hence CO2 and water vapour are like thermal underwear to keep the earth warm (if e is 100%, the temperature is about -18 deg C, for if you solve for e with current temperature, assume 15 deg C, you find e is about 60%). I am assuming e is constant whatever the temperature for exactly the same material, is that correct? In reality e will change as the material of the atmosphere changes (more CO2, or more vapour). In the second equation G is a number, units also W/m^2, which is a measure of the influence a factor has in altering the balance of incoming and outgoing energy in the Earth-atmosphere system. If you solve for G for 15 deg C, you get about 150 W/m^2. My puzzle is whether G is also constant, if for other reasons (e.g. change in solar radiation, change in albedo) the temperature changes. Intuitively it won't be constant. Why represent it this way? Apologise if I have misunderstood, and please correct any mistakes (I am quite new to this, but it is interesting). Again, I am not trying to do any research, just finding out some facts that could be put into layman's language and hopefully into the article. I think thermal underwear is a better analogy than greenhouses, e.g. HistorianofScience (talk) 11:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Fine. Writing it all out is quicker than finding it, so... simplifying, the sun shines 4S units on the uniform earth (and since the area of a circle is 1/4 the area of a corresponding sphere the 4 drops out), which is a black body (forget albedo for the moment, it makes no real difference). The atmosphere is transparent to SW, and can be considered as a single layer not in conductive contact with the surface. There is no diurnal cycle, all is averaged out, all is in equilibrium. So at the sfc (with atmosphere) we have the following equation:
(the surface is black, captures all solar SW and transforms it into LW which it re-radiates) and G is the radiation from the atmosphere. Meanwhile, in the atmosphere,
(the atmospheric layer is totally opaque to the surface LW, is itself isothermal, and being a layer radiates both up and downwards). As it happens G = r(T_a)^4 but we don't care about that for tihs analysis. Hence, S + G = 2G, hence S = G, hence T_1 = (2S/r)^0.25. Meanwhile, in the absence of the atmosphere, we clearly would have T_2 = (S/r)^0.25. T_1 > T_2 (by a factor of 2^0.25) and (T_1 - T_2) is the greenhouse effect. William M. Connolley (talk) 21:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC) Also, this [5] and the linked [6] also refers, but is harder William M. Connolley (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
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Blast from the past
Not to creep you out, but I was looking through old RfAs and I found this, from your second, and succesful, RfA. To the question of: How do you see Wikipedia in 2010 ?
OK, for what its worth, here is the rest: I see wikipedia continuing its growth and influence. The problems of scaling will continue: how to smoothly adapt current practices to a larger community. At the moment this appears to be working mostly OK. Problems exist with the gap between arbcomm level and admin level: I expect this to have to be bridged/changed someway well before 2010. I very much hope more experts - from my area of interests, particularly scientists - will contribute: at the moment all too few do. To make this work, we will have to find some way to welcome and encourage them and their contributions without damaging the wiki ethos. This isn't working terribly well at the moment. I predict that wiki will still be a benevolent dictatorship in 2010 - the problems of transition to full user sovereignty are not worth solving at this stage. William M. Connolley 20:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC).
Thought you'd be amused. Shadowjams (talk) 07:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm yes. "Prediction is hard, especially of the future" as they say William M. Connolley (talk) 08:25, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
- Ha. So they say. I'm really good at the past prediction part though. Shadowjams (talk) 08:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
More thermals
All at Idealized greenhouse model it seems
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Thanks for your explanation which I am afraid I still don't really follow. I don't see how 'the earth heats the atmosphere' and 'the atmosphere heats the earth' can both be true.
| G ^ V Solar input. (4S ->) S | ---------------------------- Atmosphere. Emits G, up and down, thermal radiation. Absorbs S+G. ---------------------------- | | | V Solar straight through - atmos transparent, still S G V ^ S+G | ----------------------------- Sfc. Abs S(SW)+G(LW). Thus emits (S+G)(LW). Thus S+G = rT^4 Clear now? William M. Connolley (talk) 20:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC) Sorry, apart from the bit about not reflecting LW (that seemed picky, unless I misunderstood it), which of my claims was wrong? I said that the net outflow from earth to atmosphere has to be upwards. And that this outflow has to be exactly equal to the outflow from the atmosphere into space. Your diagram is incomprehensible. And what about Greenhouse effect where it says "Radiation is emitted both upward, with part escaping to space, and downward toward Earth's surface, making our life on earth possible." This is entirely wrong isn't it? It gives the impression that we are safe because only part of the radiation escapes to space, but the rest is trapped behind & keeps us snug and warm. The reality is that the net outflow from the earth has to be exactly balanced by the outflow at the edge of the atmosphere into space. Otherwise the atmosphere would keep on heating up until equilibrium was restored. HistorianofScience (talk) 20:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC) [edit] The unclearness of the diagram is the omission of the causality. You have the atmosphere radiating G downwards, e.g. Yes but where does the G come from? If we were to start with turning on the sun like a switch, at that instant there would be no G from the atmosphere. In which case the first thing to hit the earth would be S. Then earth would emit (not reflect) S. With no G. HistorianofScience (talk) 20:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
| 0 ^ V Solar input. (4S ->) S | ---------------------------- Atmosphere. At 0K. Doesn't radiate. ---------------------------- | | | V Solar straight through - atmos transparent, still S 0 V ^ 0 | ----------------------------- Sfc. Abs S(SW)+0(LW). At 0K. Doesn't radiate.
| 0 ^ V Solar input. (4S ->) S | ---------------------------- Atmosphere. At 0K. Doesn't radiate. ---------------------------- | | | V Solar straight through - atmos transparent, still S 0 V ^ G_T | ----------------------------- Sfc. Abs S(SW)+0(LW). Has warmed up somewhat, to T. Emits rT^4, call this G_T. So now the sfc has warmed up somewhat, so it is emitting G_T in the LW. Now the atmosphere isn't in balance: it is absorbing G_T but emitting nothing, since it is at 0K. So it will warm up. So it will start emitting downwards an warm further. And eventually we end up with the equilibrium solution William M. Connolley (talk) 21:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC) |
Service award update
Argh, I hate it when these things change :-( Oh well, I'll see if the new one looks any prettier than the old :-) William M. Connolley (talk) 12:59, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
To William and his talk page stalkers:
Would you (ambiguously singular or plural) like to expand the portion of "Dynamic topography" that is about the oceans?
I am planning on doing some expansion of the solid-Earth-geophysics portion of that article (which currently covers both the dynamically-supported ocean elevations and topography due to motion of material in the mantle), but I think it would be a disservice to continue to ignore the ocean part. Ideally, we would have two separate standalone articles.
Awickert (talk) 17:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Good point. How analogous are they? I never got through reading Gill, so maybe now is my chance :-) William M. Connolley (talk) 18:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I don't know anything about it in the oceans; in the Earth it is due to motion in the mantle that creates normal tractions on interfaces such as the surface, the upper/lower mantle discontinuity, the core-mantle boundary, etc. Since it is supposed to be about the motion of seawater, I can imagine how the physics could be identical, but I can't say for sure and about to head out the door: off to see a friend perform in Guettarda's favorite musical, Awickert (talk) 18:51, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Careful. That is pretty clear evidence of a Cabal, or possibly a Cadre William M. Connolley (talk) 19:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Cadre, I think. In our obligatory red shirts. Guettarda (talk) 21:38, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm thinking about "Gang of N." It has a nice math/science ring to it, and evokes the Gang of Four. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- While "Gang of N" has a certain ring to it (the definitions are so amorphous, no one can agree how many there are), I think "Gang of i" might be more appropriate. Guettarda (talk) 03:43, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm thinking about "Gang of N." It has a nice math/science ring to it, and evokes the Gang of Four. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I was totally baffled by "Guettarda's favourite musical"...until I remembered that conversation. It was especially puzzling since I've never seen it, have no idea what it's actually about, and don't even know what comes after the second "Oklahoma!" Guettarda (talk) 21:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's a good one - you should see it. Back to the topic: if it turns out that the underlying physics are the same, but just expressed in different media, I bet we could leave it at one article. If they are fundamentally different, then let's split. Awickert (talk) 01:21, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
PD initial thoughts
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Proposed decision looks about as stupid as I'd expected, though not as stupid as some others expected. The failure of any meaningful remedies for admin involvement, which wrecked the CC probation, is a flaw. But to be fair, the PD is capable of becoming moderately sensible with the correct votes. The real test is who votes for that William M. Connolley (talk) 11:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Thunks
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The PD is exactly as many of the Cabal members expected -- it's well known that Risker and Rlevse despise you, and the long delay was because they had to win over Brad to get sufficiently humiliating sanctions. As I have pointed out elsewhere, the arbs pay little or no attention to the Evidence/Workshop pages and base their decisions on broad impressions of who the good guys and bad guys are. (It has to be said that your recent actions gave R/R ammunition.) I think Risker's tactic here has been to set the Overton window at her desired boundary; the final decision may not be as extreme. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
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Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change/Proposed_decision#Statement_by_WMC, in case you missed it William M. Connolley (talk) 22:43, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
PD continuing thoughts
Rlevse has gorn [8]. That's interesting. There is no hint of why, though. Can't say I'm sorry but it would be interesting to know why. R has done some really wacky things with the PD William M. Connolley (talk) 15:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Naughty boy, you ignored Boris' warning to keep a low profile and not to challenge the faulty system too much, yet again. But like last time, your opponents exploited your actions a bit too vigorously, causing their efforts to backfire on them. Count Iblis (talk) 17:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- Arbcom is coming down heavily in favor of Lar and his faction, going so far as to rewrite the definition of "uninvolved" so as to specifically exclude Lar. WP:ADMIN sez "Involvement is generally construed very broadly by the community, to include current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors) and disputes on topics, regardless of the nature, age, or outcome of the dispute." Notice how Arbcom has refudiated the "current or past conflicts with an editor (or editors)" bit and focused solely on content? It's hard to escape the conclusion that Arbcom knew what they wanted to decide long ago, and are assembling the evidence and rewriting policy to fit their preferred outcome. So at the end of the day it wouldn't have mattered if WMC had behaved himself. They were going to nail him no matter what. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:20, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm surprised to hear you say that. I don't see that supported by the current round of votes, though who knows what the future will bring William M. Connolley (talk) 18:53, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
FoF thoughts
It all came true for GJP, M4th, ZP5, JWB. But still arbcomm fail to see the obvious
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I'm minded to put forward a couple of extra FoF's:
Other obvious ones are ATren and Cla. [Oops - forgot JWB, the other obvious one. Added belatedly William M. Connolley (talk) 07:46, 6 September 2010 (UTC)] Thoughts? William M. Connolley (talk) 18:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Cla68 insight? Actually, the whole WR thread is interesting and indicative that there is some synergistic sharing between Lar, Cla68, and Moulton. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:07, 11 September 2010 (UTC) |
GCM Gridding
Hi William. I was just reading the general circulation model article, and was curious if you (or your talk page stalkers) had some insight about this sentence: "Spectral models generally use a gaussian grid, because of the mathematics of transformation between spectral and grid-point space." This seems wrong to me. I had always thought that spectral climate models did not use any grid, but that all of their calculations were done in the frequency domain. Of course, it is mathematically not quite so hard to output spherical harmonics to lat/long, but I think that the sentence implies the wrong thing and thereby overlooks the advantage of working in harmonics. Or, of course, I could be wrong, I mean, I do spend a lot of time looking at rocks and dirt... Awickert (talk) 06:17, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- Spectral models do need a grid. One reason is easy: not everything can be done in spectral space. Convective precipitation is one obvious one. Indeed anything that isn't the dynamics: the air-sea interaction, the vegetation. All of those need to be represented in grid-point space. The one that is trickier is (stretching my memory) the calculation of some of the higher-order dynamics terms, which I think need some grid representation William M. Connolley (talk) 07:32, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- OK - thanks for the explanation! I suppose the resolution is low enough in geophysics that global modelers will very often do all of the calcs and data in spherical harmonics. Those poor, poor climate modelers... too much data, like too much ice cream, can lead to protracted pain. Awickert (talk) 07:40, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- Actually there's a gradual movement away from spectral methods, something that I am very glad to see. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:30, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- I've heard some very good things about the newer geodesic-type grids! I feel fortunate for geologists because the lithosphere acts as an elastic sheet, and harmonic functions are part of its solution: in other words, spectral methods line up with the actual physics of what is going on, making the solutions much less difficult and time-intensive. Plus, the strength of the lithosphere also acts as a filter to smear out high-frequency loading signals, meaning that you capture everything by solving up to degree 256 or 512. Thank you, Earth! Awickert (talk) 16:11, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
It is a good article
The one you co-wrote in BAMS, that is. I think that article could help the climate-change debate, and it should be more widely known. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 21:49, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Ditto. (Re the global cooling myth). BTW, I relied on that article to re-write the answer for Q4 at Talk:Scientific opinion on climate change/FAQ. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
Message to WMC TPSers
Precipitation (meteorology) need love badly. Spot the errrors and win valuable prizes! Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:40, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- I've hacked this around extensively, but it needs more. One of the bigger problems is gross article bloat due to repetition of stuff that belongs in sub-pages. All may contribute to solving that William M. Connolley (talk) 10:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Steven Vogt talks about a scientist who modeled the atmospheric circulation of a tidally locked exoplanet like Gliese 581 g in its habitable zone.[10] I'm not sure which paper Vogt is referring to here. Would you be able to add a discussion about this to the Gliese 581 g article? No hurry on this. It's in the video if you get a chance to watch it (Event begins sometime around 29:27). Viriditas (talk) 13:07, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
- They have really irritating video... can't they just put it on youtube :-( William M. Connolley (talk) 13:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
- Interesting how I asked you this question right as it became an issue. An editor just added that the tidally locked sides would be "blazing hot in the light side to freezing cold in the dark side", however I removed this because Vogt seems to refer to the climate models several times that contradict this statement. Viriditas (talk) 13:47, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
- And now, I've restored it after finding the source. Viriditas (talk) 14:01, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
- Interesting how I asked you this question right as it became an issue. An editor just added that the tidally locked sides would be "blazing hot in the light side to freezing cold in the dark side", however I removed this because Vogt seems to refer to the climate models several times that contradict this statement. Viriditas (talk) 13:47, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
I've evaded the issue for the moment but put a comment about something else on the talk page. Thanks. Meanwhile, if you look at the PR puff [http://news.ucsc.edu/2010/09/planet.html - notice in the pic the sun is orange/red, as presumably it should be, but mysteriously the light reflected off the clouds has become white William M. Connolley (talk) 14:19, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
- I finally found the guy and his work. His name is James Kasting. Have you heard of him?Viriditas (talk) 22:16, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Nope. But I have found and now read Joshi et al. 1997 which looks to be the main source for the atmospheres stuff. Its quite interesting. I'll
summarise it here, prior to dumping it somewhere:put it in User:William M. Connolley/Atmospheric general circulation on tidally locked planets <snipped to sub page>
- Nope. But I have found and now read Joshi et al. 1997 which looks to be the main source for the atmospheres stuff. Its quite interesting. I'll
William M. Connolley (talk) 22:55, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Interesting. But isn't deposition of CO2 exothermic and thus would release heat into the atmosphere on the cold side so it would get warmer? — Coren (talk) 16:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- Nevermind, obviously the GHE would be reduced by the loss and that would overwhelm the small amount of heat gained from deposition. — Coren (talk) 16:16, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, the heat released is small, and is soon lost. Its vaguely similar to the way that waste heat from fossil fuel combustion is far less important than the CO2 released William M. Connolley (talk) 14:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
- Nevermind, obviously the GHE would be reduced by the loss and that would overwhelm the small amount of heat gained from deposition. — Coren (talk) 16:16, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Gurk: I've just noticed that Vogt et al. say M stars emit a large amount of their radiation in the infrared. As a result, since the greenhouse effect works by absorbing infrared radiation, the surface temperatures would be higher than predicted by such simple calculations. [11] This is very badly broken. Oops William M. Connolley (talk) 17:42, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
In memoriam
Another valuable editor gone User:ChrisO while the trolls remain William M. Connolley (talk) 19:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
And another: User:Polargeo: [12] William M. Connolley (talk) 14:56, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The following is a summary of the remedies enacted:
Stupidity collapsed, though it is still there, alas
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On behalf of the Arbitration Committee,
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Final decision: thoughts
Of the decision:
- the "scorched earth" idea is unthinking and stupid.
- arbcomm demonstrate again an inability to distinguish the valuable from the valueless; indeed, they appear to be too lazy to even try.
- in pursuit of their atque ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant they have failed to notice that peace has already broken out. For two reasons: the worst of the "skeptics" (MN, M4th, Cla, ATren, TGL) are all gone; and the external forcing (Climatic Research Unit email controversy) has been resolved in favour of Climate Science. So all the disruption was for nothing.
About the only good thing about the PD is that it is so obviously bad, it is likely to rebound more to the discredit of arbcomm than anyone else.
Of the process:
- more of it should be open. There were very clearly extensive periods when off-wiki emails between the arbs were the main means of discussion. Some of that must be tolerable, but not to the extent that it is done. The arbs have become as addicted to secrecy as the Civil Service, and it is not good: both because of the dark deeds done in darkness (one example: the unexplained but welcome booting out of Rlevse) and because lack of on-wiki information fostered unease amongst the participants.
- the arbs need to be more involved, and to manage the process. Some are lazy, but none are good. This isn't acceptable. It has become near-expected practice in arbcomm cases for nothing but a few gnomic utterances from arbs during the case. The sheer volume of evidence and discussion produced by petty back-and-forth needs to be rigourously policed. Arbcomm as a whole is fairly lazy, in that they don't really evaluate the actual abckground to a case - that would be too much trouble, and they never bother. Instead, they rely on behaviour *during* a case, and part of their technique is a deliberate fostering of the possibility for disorder, in order to give them a lazy way of deciding. In this case, arbcomm gave a clear signal right at the start that evidence limits could be ignored. It was downhill from there.
Of the arbs:
- none of them emerge with any credit.
William M. Connolley (talk) 08:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
- Did you notice the Hipocrite slapped a retired template up? Even though he said it wasn't due to the case, I think it was for the most part. I find it sad that a lot of long term editors just gave up after this case. Do you think Verbal will be back? I didn't think we lose so many long term editors like this. I am actually surprised in one way but in the other way I guess it's to be expected. :( --CrohnieGalTalk 18:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
- A discussion is now underway somewhere as to whether it's kosher to have a section such as the one below, discussing scholarly articles proposed by the Banned. It's so utterly bizarre, but to someone familiar with Wikipedia it would seem routine. Of course, to one of the most active (and unsanctioned) CC editors, my very act of posting on this page would be considered... I forget the words he used. Fraternizing with the unclean? ScottyBerg (talk) 19:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
- Could not see the discussion anywhere. FWIW I think any conversation which people bring here ought to be ok, as long as it stays here and does not get directly cited as part of an argument anywhere else. Ought, because I haven't got time to read the exact ruling but practically speaking it is much better for everyone if any such conversations stay here and visible rather than disappear on to email. Isn't there something about a prophet living in a tree whom people travelled to consult which even fits with one of the pictures....--BozMo talk 20:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
- It's at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#What_does_topic_banned_mean.3F ScottyBerg (talk) 20:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
- Some valid concerns are being raised in that discussion, but valid only in the Wikipedia sense. Outside of Wikipedia, I'd think that trying to prevent scientists from listing sources would be viewed with amazement. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
- Could not see the discussion anywhere. FWIW I think any conversation which people bring here ought to be ok, as long as it stays here and does not get directly cited as part of an argument anywhere else. Ought, because I haven't got time to read the exact ruling but practically speaking it is much better for everyone if any such conversations stay here and visible rather than disappear on to email. Isn't there something about a prophet living in a tree whom people travelled to consult which even fits with one of the pictures....--BozMo talk 20:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with most everything you said in your analysis apart from the juicy gossip that I cannot directly verify. One comment, though: it's been perennially easy to be hard on arbcom; in fact, it won't take too much digging in my history to see my take on them. It seems to me now that they're basically doing exactly what the committee was designed to do when it was first set-up. Wikipedia and arbcom are both intentionally dysfunctional because the only way the content could have been created and given its high Google-ranks in the first place was to open it to the peanut-gallery that is the internet. What we have entrenched now is a culture that values inane process over efficiency, brute force over nuance, and immature niceties over intellectual heft. Sounds like any other internet microcosm to me. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
- It's unquestionable that the process was far more opaque than it should have been, and took too long. I think that everyone involved except the arbs would agree with that. Email deliberations have their place, but there was far too little communication with the parties. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
- It's been that way in every arbitration case since 2005 as far as I can tell. Additionally, with every arbcom election, there are candidates who get elected who promise to change the system, and they all end up either resigning or changing their minds. The opacity was intentional and has always been a part of Wikipedia as far as I can tell. Obviously, there are scenarios where private communications are needed, but for whatever reason arbcom tends to function primarily on this level to their own detriment.
- I think the model of the US Supreme Court is much better. Let disputants make statements and enter evidence. Then let arbcom ask questions. Then shut everything down. Arbcom comes back with a singular ruling and opposing minority opinions with signatures.
- ScienceApologist (talk) 21:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
- That, actually, would be my favored model because it would tend to promote coherent decisions and better expressed dissent. Odds of being able to reform ArbCom to work this way: internal (ArbCom) support: 25%, external (community) support: 0.01%. If lucky. — Coren (talk) 00:27, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- That seems like it might work, actually. Anybody know what the procedure is to have it implemented? Maybe an RFC to gauge support,. and the closing consensus is the community's recommendation to the Committee? The WordsmithCommunicate 03:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- ArbCom does not answer to the community, only to Jimbo. So, one has to ask Jimbo if he would be willing to consider community proposals to reform the ArbCom system. Count Iblis (talk) 14:44, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- It's unquestionable that the process was far more opaque than it should have been, and took too long. I think that everyone involved except the arbs would agree with that. Email deliberations have their place, but there was far too little communication with the parties. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
- A discussion is now underway somewhere as to whether it's kosher to have a section such as the one below, discussing scholarly articles proposed by the Banned. It's so utterly bizarre, but to someone familiar with Wikipedia it would seem routine. Of course, to one of the most active (and unsanctioned) CC editors, my very act of posting on this page would be considered... I forget the words he used. Fraternizing with the unclean? ScottyBerg (talk) 19:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
I agree that having arbcomm ask questions would be the correct way to work. I disagree that people would disagree. Furthermore, I don't think arbcomm's way of working is anywhere set in stone - it is just How They Do Stuff. The could do it differently for the next case, if they chose to. Coren blaming-the-community-in-advance for arbcomm's failure to reform itself is a Poor Show William M. Connolley (talk) 22:24, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
This [15] edit by H is good: both for the identification of the same flaw in the system as discussed above; and for the note about dirty backroom dealing William M. Connolley (talk) 21:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Issues...few seem to understand
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More obsessive secrecy from arbcomm
[16] William M. Connolley (talk) 16:04, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- Given the limited amount of checkusers, it's fairly easy to check their block logs. No other checkuser has blocked any accounts as PG socks. (Unless they suppressed the block...) There was 1 rangeblock Special:Contributions/194.66.0.0/24. -Atmoz (talk) 17:45, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- Err, maybe, but that wasn't the question, was it? I'm a bit baffled - what did I say that you interpreted as that being the answer to?
- Also, that range is BAS. Possibly all of it. This stinks of paranoia William M. Connolley (talk) 18:01, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- Um... something, somewhere, I think? I guess it wasn't you. Oh well, my mistake. But if anyone does/did ask, there's the answer. Happy another orange bar. (Yes, blocking all of BAS was probably overkill. Most of the edits on that range were either a long time ago, or unrelated.) -Atmoz (talk) 18:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- OK, thats all right then. At least I know about the range block. It probably has edits by me in it - I guess I must be a PG sock too William M. Connolley (talk) 18:12, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think this is only the logical continuation of a failed policy - why waste time driving off expert editors one by one if you can block them wholesale? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:24, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- Careful, you're a good boy, remember? William M. Connolley (talk) 18:37, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- Didn't anybody get the bulletin? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:55, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- Missed it. Oops, looks like you were a bit too Sekret. Scarlet letter stuff I suppose William M. Connolley (talk) 19:09, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- Didn't anybody get the bulletin? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:55, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- Careful, you're a good boy, remember? William M. Connolley (talk) 18:37, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think this is only the logical continuation of a failed policy - why waste time driving off expert editors one by one if you can block them wholesale? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:24, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- OK, thats all right then. At least I know about the range block. It probably has edits by me in it - I guess I must be a PG sock too William M. Connolley (talk) 18:12, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- Um... something, somewhere, I think? I guess it wasn't you. Oh well, my mistake. But if anyone does/did ask, there's the answer. Happy another orange bar. (Yes, blocking all of BAS was probably overkill. Most of the edits on that range were either a long time ago, or unrelated.) -Atmoz (talk) 18:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
- That is I suppose the kind of editors them want here. 80.186.105.107 (talk) 04:14, 19 October 2010 (UTC) formerly known as Dreg743
Climate change again
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WMC - stop responding. Go do something else. Just ignore it. Hipocrite (talk) 15:09, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
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Discussion thereof
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Taking a purely pragmatic point of view, one has to consider maintaining CC articles on a daily basis that are not watched by many people. The main global warming page is watched by 1500 people, but there are a lot of other pages that have a handful of watchers, many of whom don't edit Wikipedia frequently. Mostly, these are pages on technical aspects of climate science. In contrast, the polemic pages tend to have a large number of watchers. William seems to have all these CC pages on his watchlist and if we don't want him to communicate obvious problems (like subtle POV pushing in the two cases reported by William above), then other editors have to watchlist these pages and check out every edit on a daily basis. This would require all these pages to be listed somewhere so that people like me can monitor them. Now, when I just checked out the latest problem reported by William, I also tried to find if there already is some coordinated effort to maintain the articles. What I found was that Wikipedia:WikiProject Environment/Climate change task force exists for this purpose, but that this is inactive (also quite a few of the listed members seem to have a problematic background, it seems). The lists of articles that I saw there are not up to date, e.g. I didn't find the article William pointed to listed there. Count Iblis (talk) 16:14, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
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WP:ACTIVIST image
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Blocked for two weeks
Twattery |
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![]() William M. Connolley (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log)) Request reason: No indication of what I have been blocked for. Nor indeed is "Banned means leave it alone, entirely. No exceptions" justified by the arbcomm result or policy William M. Connolley (talk) 20:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC) Decline reason: This is an arbitration enforcement block. It can only be appealed as described at WP:AEBLOCK. Sandstein 20:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC) If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked. Oh, and can someone please point Beeblebrox at User:William_M._Connolley/For_me/The_naming_of_cats William M. Connolley (talk) 20:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC) ![]() William M. Connolley (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log)) Request reason: You miss the point. This block was not imposed pursuant to the terms of an active arbitration remedy. The arbcomm remedy does not include edits to my user talk page. Also, following recent intereactions with you, you cannot possibly be regarded as an impartial admin Decline reason: While I understand that's your opinion, this block should be reviewed using the AE process, so don't use {{unblock}}, but instead use {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}. PhilKnight (talk) 21:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC) If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
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Off-wiki meatpuppetry encouraged by arbcom! Transparency decried as disruptive!
Bizarre. I guess the appropriate thing to do now is to keep all conversations about climate change off wiki. Plausible deniability seems to be the arbitration committee's preferred mode of operation. Transparency is to be eschewed. This is oddly in-keeping with their primary mode of deliberation. ScienceApologist (talk) 12:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed, arbcom do everything they can get away with away from scrutiny. It is very difficult to challenge arbcom on this because complete cooperation of all involved editors in any particular case is needed to force this to change. They tried to keep my case away from public eyes and wrapped it up with all arbs voting under some checkuser cloud even though I never requested or needed any secrecy. In fact secrecy worked against me as certain members of arbcom almost certainly realised when pushing their hasty agenda driven solutions. Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:04, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Accepted practice is to discuss the topic on WR, then make the edits here. :-P Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I cannot comment about that on-wiki because that would involve me discussing the conduct of administrators in CC probation. Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- You mentioned "the CC probation"! That's an obvious attempt to prolong the dispute and deserves a lengthy block. We have to make you scum understand that business means business. (Sadly, I'm not sure whether I'm joking or not...) Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your joking Boris, don't know about the rest of them though. 2 weeks? I don't understand why looking at this talk page I don't see it. Did WMC, sorry WMC, did you talk about CC some place else? I'm confused because I don't see anything here recent to cause the block. Can someone clarify for me please? Thanks in advance, --CrohnieGalTalk 13:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, see #Misc breakage, above. It struck me as a sensible solution, but people found it problematic and told him to stop. He posted a third one, which led to AE, which led to a block. Unreasonable? Sure. Putting process above improving the encyclopaedia? Sure. But given that he was told to stop, from a purely process perspective, it's it difficult point to argue. But honestly, I'm more inclined to see this as bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy, rather than stupidity or maliciousness.
- At the heart of this is a desire to "do something". It's what we say to politicians all the time. "Do something". Got a crime problem? Enforce tougher sentences! It doesn't matter if the solutions (a) fail to address the actual problem, and (b) result in draconian punishments for people guilty of relatively minor infractions (cf. war on drugs) - people want action, they want to see something being done. In Wikipedia, the people wanting action and the people capable of acting happen to overlap significantly. So it all gets more complicated.
- Tougher laws don't actually solve crime problems, especially when they don't actually do anything to deal with the underlying problems. A tougher sanctions regime isn't going to solve the problem here - they're driven by a combination of real-world politics and bloggers taking specific aim at articles and editors here. People still seem to be operating under the mistaken idea that this is about personalities, that you can solve the problem by clamping down on the 'problem children'. That's not to say that there aren't problems between editors, conflicts that have made matters worse. But they're minor. Without the "external forcings", we wouldn't have a big problem here.
- In one sense the problem is the solution. The arbcomm case created a flawed framework. But the arbcomm actually has no power of its own. The power actually lies with the community. A constant stream of 'test cases' makes matters worse. What has happened since the case closed is very unfortunate. Guettarda (talk) 16:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Note that in this case, the block doesn't prevent William from posting another CC article link, it only prevents William from editing other non CC articles. :) . Count Iblis (talk) 16:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- True, but the next block could keep him from editing his talk page as well. I agree that what's happening is going to shift a lot of activity off-wiki, and things can get hairy. I tried to raise that issue in one of the discussions a few days ago, but without success. I think that we're definitely seeing process triumphing over content here. The choice was made, and content is going to suffer. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yep, it will force things off-wiki. May as well start now:
- Sign here to join the secret mailing list.
- Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- --CrohnieGalTalk 17:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- --17:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- William M. Connolley (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Count Iblis (talk) 17:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- --~~
- Jimbo Wales (talk) Imaginary time, Modified Julian Date (UTC)
- True, but the next block could keep him from editing his talk page as well. I agree that what's happening is going to shift a lot of activity off-wiki, and things can get hairy. I tried to raise that issue in one of the discussions a few days ago, but without success. I think that we're definitely seeing process triumphing over content here. The choice was made, and content is going to suffer. ScottyBerg (talk) 16:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Note that in this case, the block doesn't prevent William from posting another CC article link, it only prevents William from editing other non CC articles. :) . Count Iblis (talk) 16:18, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your joking Boris, don't know about the rest of them though. 2 weeks? I don't understand why looking at this talk page I don't see it. Did WMC, sorry WMC, did you talk about CC some place else? I'm confused because I don't see anything here recent to cause the block. Can someone clarify for me please? Thanks in advance, --CrohnieGalTalk 13:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- You mentioned "the CC probation"! That's an obvious attempt to prolong the dispute and deserves a lengthy block. We have to make you scum understand that business means business. (Sadly, I'm not sure whether I'm joking or not...) Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I cannot comment about that on-wiki because that would involve me discussing the conduct of administrators in CC probation. Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Accepted practice is to discuss the topic on WR, then make the edits here. :-P Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- This is not a good idea. Remember the Eastern European Mailing List case, in which multiple people were banned because it was discovered they were using a mailing list. Cardamon (talk) 19:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, but this is a secret mailing list. So no one knows it exists. It's safe to assume that these people are not part of that list. The fact that one does not receive messages from the list is proof that the list exists is the fact that you are not receiving messages from it. And every time you see vandalism reverted, you will have to ask yourself whether it was produced by some sort of a secret list. And, BTW, the issue with the EEML was not the existence of the list, but rather, the way it was used. Guettarda (talk) 19:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- This is not a good idea. Remember the Eastern European Mailing List case, in which multiple people were banned because it was discovered they were using a mailing list. Cardamon (talk) 19:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I assume that this is being done in jest (it is, isn't it?), but it definitely can be misconstrued. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but information on the list is only available via the list. As soon as you subscribe, you will get an email with full instructions. Please disable your spam filter, as we use steganography to make the more important announcements look like penis enlargement ads. In fact, you may already be subscribed... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I like your thinking. In fact I like it so much I stole it :-) William M. Connolley (talk) 22:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but information on the list is only available via the list. As soon as you subscribe, you will get an email with full instructions. Please disable your spam filter, as we use steganography to make the more important announcements look like penis enlargement ads. In fact, you may already be subscribed... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I assume that this is being done in jest (it is, isn't it?), but it definitely can be misconstrued. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Only reasonable solution I see here is to elect Boris to the arbcomm. Guettarda (talk) 13:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- He's got my vote! --CrohnieGalTalk 13:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- A run for arbcom certainly is an intriguing proposition. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- If you'll accept, I know lots of us would vote for you. --CrohnieGalTalk 17:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- He's got my vote! --CrohnieGalTalk 13:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I went out this morning and it was cold. Then it got warmer. It appears to be getting colder right now. A couple of months ago it was warmer. I am not going to Antarctica this year so from my perspective it will be a warm winter. Oh someone is vandalising an article but I cannot tell you where. Never mind, nice sock spread the love :). Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Huh! --CrohnieGalTalk 13:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I have lost my mind. Pay no attention :) Polargeo 2 (talk) 14:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Polargeo 2, as a topic-banned party in the CC case you have just made a personal attack against yourself, who is a topic-banned editor in the CC case. Why do you insist on continuing these battles across multiple
forumsforaforiiplaces, despite the clear intent of arbcom? See WP:NSA. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)- I feel that the link under "even in the face of self-abuse" needs changing William M. Connolley (talk) 18:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- To what, might I ask? you foul-minded pervert... Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I went to public school, I'll have you know, and that kind of joke is obligatory William M. Connolley (talk) 19:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I was rather surprised that the link didn't go there... Guettarda (talk) 19:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I went to public school, I'll have you know, and that kind of joke is obligatory William M. Connolley (talk) 19:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- To what, might I ask? you foul-minded pervert... Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 18:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I feel that the link under "even in the face of self-abuse" needs changing William M. Connolley (talk) 18:01, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Polargeo 2, as a topic-banned party in the CC case you have just made a personal attack against yourself, who is a topic-banned editor in the CC case. Why do you insist on continuing these battles across multiple
- I have lost my mind. Pay no attention :) Polargeo 2 (talk) 14:05, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Huh! --CrohnieGalTalk 13:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- SBHB, I'm deeply worried. From an ArbCom candidate I would expect to see more than just a singe WP:STUPIDABBREV. If I were uninvolved, I'd strongly consider blocking you for insufficient zeal in enforcing Wikipedia best practices! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Don't worry, I think we all have! :) --CrohnieGalTalk 17:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Mailing lists are so last century. What about a private wiki? William M. Connolley (talk) 17:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I confess to being startled at the suggestion that you should either ignore blatant bad edits, or else email someone else to fix them. I really can't see what the latter achieves at all. Surely this is "participating in any Wikipedia process relating to those articles", just harder to prove? Although perhaps I shouldn't give people ideas. Anyway, for what it's worth, I fail to see what a 2 week ban achieves that couldn't be achieved by saying "don't do that", especially when the case was not clear-cut. "Unncessarily draconian" springs to mind. pour encourager les autres? Or décourager, in this case. --Merlinme (talk) 17:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Malice is the word you're looking for William M. Connolley (talk) 17:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- you should . . . ignore blatant bad edits: that's the definition of "topic ban," and the culmination of months of deliberations. Removal of the most qualified editor from the CC articles and an editorial in the Wall Street Journal praising arbcom for having done so. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- I thought Boris's post on NYB's talk page was particularly good. That showed up that Stephan as a bit of a whinger William M. Connolley (talk) 18:14, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- you should . . . ignore blatant bad edits: that's the definition of "topic ban," and the culmination of months of deliberations. Removal of the most qualified editor from the CC articles and an editorial in the Wall Street Journal praising arbcom for having done so. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Malice is the word you're looking for William M. Connolley (talk) 17:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- Why private? Why not just post it at WR. As much as they hate you over there, they hate the arbcomm more. It would appear that one's actions on WR, no matter how egregious, incur no penalty over here. Guettarda (talk) 19:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Some unwanted advise
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-- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:28, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Actually, I think you're right about do it on an open forum. But wrong about calling us activists; that was an error William M. Connolley (talk) 13:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
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ArbCom enforcement:Talk page access
WMC, I removed a section from your talk page where you are posting related to Climate Change. Do not put it back or create another section if you want to retain talk page access. And consider this a formal warning that your block will be extended if you continue to post about CC on your talk page. FloNightUser talk:FloNight 12:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC) [Note - I've removed the irritating hearts from your sig - William M. Connolley (talk) 12:53, 28 October 2010 (UTC)]
- So, you really are voting in favour of preferring off-wiki communication. Strange days William M. Connolley (talk) 12:52, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- You may not realise it but if it had been me posting any of those links I would have just been indefed and had talkpage access taken away instantly. The admins who dislike you are at least cautious enough not to stick their necks out too much. The result is likely to be the same in the end though as they go around purposefully not hearing good arguments that get in their way until they get what they desire. Polargeo 2 (talk) 12:58, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
WMC, you're screwed no matter what you do. The Arbitration Committee acted in bad faith throughout the proceedings (not all members, I hasten to add, but that was the net effect). Since you aren't going to get a fair and impartial hearing regardless of what you do or don't do, I see no reason not to follow your conscience wherever that may lead. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- Rather late in the day, the question appears to be one of diplomacy – an appearance of civility will overcome article content quality any day. Now that you're here, WMC, it would take uncharacteristic humility and an ability to let climate change articles go to hell in a handbasket without comment to have a hope of lifting the topic ban. Such are the wages of expertise and a commitment to good quality content, when assailed by political operators with a veneer of civility. As seems to be usual, I've no idea how to reach a satisfactory resolution of this situation. . . dave souza, talk 13:49, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- [Twattery redacted. Don't be such a delicate flower, daaaahling William M. Connolley (talk)] Beeblebrox (talk) 19:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your denigration of other editors as "an army of followers who will support us no matter what and relentlessly attack anyone who is seen as opposition" says a lot. Anyone who disagrees with you is a Bad PersonTM and cannot possibly be acting from a principled difference in views, correct?
In short, your coming here to shove it in WMC's face and put down anyone who disagrees with you as WMC's "followers" and "armyis way out of line.
You apologized to Awickert for your nasty "fan club" comments, but then you come here and make near-identical slams against WMC's "followers" and "army." That makes your apology ring hollow, as if the apology was merely a cynical act of convenience or dissimulation.If you want to block me for saying this I don't mind. Take a free shot. It's obvious how much you enjoy that sort of thing. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- Clear violation of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change#Casting_aspersions on his part. I trust that he will be just as quick to block himself for violating the arbcomm ruling. Guettarda (talk) 21:22, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- Beeblebrox is being self-consistent. He told me, "I apologize if I incorrectly implied you were a member of said fan club." He never apologized for his assertation there is a set of people with nothing better to do than to bumble around the internet in said fan club. I was very tempted to respond to his original comment here, but I clicked the "X" on the edit window before I finished. Awickert (talk) 21:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying. I have struck portions of my comment accordingly, and apologize to Beeblebrox for having misrepresented his exchange with you. The remainder of my comment stands. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 23:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- Beeblebrox is being self-consistent. He told me, "I apologize if I incorrectly implied you were a member of said fan club." He never apologized for his assertation there is a set of people with nothing better to do than to bumble around the internet in said fan club. I was very tempted to respond to his original comment here, but I clicked the "X" on the edit window before I finished. Awickert (talk) 21:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- Clear violation of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change#Casting_aspersions on his part. I trust that he will be just as quick to block himself for violating the arbcomm ruling. Guettarda (talk) 21:22, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your denigration of other editors as "an army of followers who will support us no matter what and relentlessly attack anyone who is seen as opposition" says a lot. Anyone who disagrees with you is a Bad PersonTM and cannot possibly be acting from a principled difference in views, correct?
- [Twattery redacted. Don't be such a delicate flower, daaaahling William M. Connolley (talk)] Beeblebrox (talk) 19:15, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Merlinme's bit
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Yes, I know I'm interposing my comments, but they didn't belong at the end of this section. Anyway: don't do it. Don't burn your bridges. Please. Making more of a martyr of yourself than you currently are is Not a Good Thing. In the worst case, it could lead to a permanent block. The ArbCom ruling (to my reading at least) left open the possibility that constructive editors could be allowed back into the collaborative fold in six months or so. To have yourself blocked for all time because you couldn't let things go for six months... would be a shame. The sky will not fall in because you let go. It might even be helpful to see which articles fall to pieces without you... and which don't. I will confess to some sympathy with WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate_change#Wikipedia_is_not_a_battleground. It has been previously suggested that you could do useful work in less controversial areas, and I genuinely think that could be good for all concerned. You would remember what it feels like (gasp! shock!) to improve an encyclopedia without fighting a war. That is surely good, for you and the encyclopedia. There may be battles to be fought... but you don't have to fight every single one yourself. To fight every one yourself may even be counterproductive. I would strongly recommend taking the (not exactly subtle) hint from the community to step back from CC articles for a while. And getting yourself permanently banned does not do anybody any good. It's not good for the encyclopedia. And it's not good for you in gett--Merlinme (talk) 11:32, 29 October 2010 (UTC)ing your point of view across. --Merlinme (talk) 22:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC) He's got a point. Oh, and another quiet suggestion: I personally don't care, but "twattery" might offend some otherwise sympathetic onlookers.ScottyBerg (talk) 23:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I thank you for the spirirt of your comment, but not for the comment itself, which comes across as patronising. If you are interested in commenting on the block, I invite you to also do so at the AE page William M. Connolley (talk) 08:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
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Breakage
- Is this a subtle reference to Slaughterhouse 5? What connection has it got to the global warming arena? If none, even in the fevered imagination of any watching activists, why not fix it yourself? Of course, now you've drawn attention to it, if anyone reading this page reverts it, they'll be accused of meatpuppetry by those more interested in procedure than in article content quality. . dave souza, talk 14:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- He can't fix it while blocked.--Cube lurker (talk) 15:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- Good point, I was forgetting the escalation of the topic ban. Fortunately a gifted photographer has remedied the problem. . dave souza, talk 15:06, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- He can't fix it while blocked.--Cube lurker (talk) 15:01, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm just wondering how large the extension of the block is going to be over this instance. Since WMC is blocked - this (by the current "interpretation") would mean that he should be blocked further from Wikipedia, since his input is not wanted, and he just "gamed" that. To the blocking admins - please do so, because there is no substantial difference. [of course it is an "interpretation" of policy that is entirely outside of how WP normally functions - but that doesn't seem to have been a factor in the previous block]. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- To answer your question, Kim, making references on one's own talk page (while blocked) to edits needed on articles outside a topic ban, is not (usually) disruptive (it is silly, though, because the real solution is to recognise why you were blocked, to make undertakings to change the conduct that led to the block, and to request an unblock by asking for a new statement to be transferred to the current WP:AE appeal). Making links to edits that need fixing in articles covered by a topic ban, however, is equivalent to using user talk space for discussing or proposing changes to articles. That sort of activity should properly take place on article talk pages, but that would breach the topic ban. When someone is topic banned from an area, they can't retreat to their user space and use that as a parallel world to carry on editing by proxy in the same area. Well, they can, but the outcome is what we've seen here. Previous examples (by other editors) of this 'smoke signals from userspace' approach were, in hindsight, not a good idea.
- To expand on that, the Wikipedia userspace has specific functions, though, traditionally, wide latitude is given to how people use their userspace, but that doesn't mean that userspace is a place where 'anything goes'. User talk space, in particular, is where users often interact in a less formal manner (as seen by some of the postings on this and other user talk pages). But ultimately, if a particular discussion or activity is better carried out in a different namespace or venue, then the discussion should move there. Really, user talk space should be a place to contact people, to have side-discussions, to have off-topic conversations, or be a waystation to other places, where the real work on the encyclopedia is done. It shouldn't be a place for long discussions on content to be hosted, or for perennial arguments to continue endlessly. It certainly shouldn't be a place for article changes to be proposed or discussed.
- It boils down to this: what, fundamentally, is user talk space for? Carcharoth (talk) 02:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- No, none of this will do. Everything you have said amounts to advisory: nothing justifies a block for TP usage. The only explanation for that is fear and paranoia on the part of arbcomm, which I think is the correct explanation (which is to say: although you were too stupid to recognise me as an expert, you know full well that others aren't, and value my opinions. You know that contrary to the gaily-experssed opinions of the arbs in this case, I'm not just one-of-many. Therefore, unlike in previous cases, you need to crush all dissent). The fundamental point is that the edits I made to my talkpage were not disruptive: the disruption comes from the responses. And by that I don't mean the responses from people editing, but responses from the shit-stirrers like TS and EfV. Had the shit-stirring been ignored, as it should have been, there would have been no problem. Retrospectively bolting on a talk-page ban, and then jumping through hoops to justify it (as you have above), is fundamentally dishonest William M. Connolley (talk) 10:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- I advised WMC privately to be careful with his talk page use, but he is absolutely right about the fundamentals of this. The problem is not what he posts to his talk page. The problem was the reactions and how seriously they were taken. This was a basis for a formal warning asking him to stop, but it was no basis for blocking him without a warning. Hans Adler 16:02, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- Carcharoth i have two problems with this: "Sillyness" is not a blockable offence. And changing the rules retroactively (with rather foolish rationalization) is bad practice. Can you explain exactly why ArbCom wasn't crystal clear on this? Despite having been asked the question in advance? All you had to do was say: "The users own talk page is henceforth included in the topic-ban - it was an oversight by us not to specify this." [btw. i think this is/was a really bad idea by WMC - what i'm protesting is the abuse of process] --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- No, none of this will do. Everything you have said amounts to advisory: nothing justifies a block for TP usage. The only explanation for that is fear and paranoia on the part of arbcomm, which I think is the correct explanation (which is to say: although you were too stupid to recognise me as an expert, you know full well that others aren't, and value my opinions. You know that contrary to the gaily-experssed opinions of the arbs in this case, I'm not just one-of-many. Therefore, unlike in previous cases, you need to crush all dissent). The fundamental point is that the edits I made to my talkpage were not disruptive: the disruption comes from the responses. And by that I don't mean the responses from people editing, but responses from the shit-stirrers like TS and EfV. Had the shit-stirring been ignored, as it should have been, there would have been no problem. Retrospectively bolting on a talk-page ban, and then jumping through hoops to justify it (as you have above), is fundamentally dishonest William M. Connolley (talk) 10:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- Is this a subtle reference to Slaughterhouse 5? What connection has it got to the global warming arena? If none, even in the fevered imagination of any watching activists, why not fix it yourself? Of course, now you've drawn attention to it, if anyone reading this page reverts it, they'll be accused of meatpuppetry by those more interested in procedure than in article content quality. . dave souza, talk 14:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- That is blatant vandalism, but... {sigh}. Well, I've said what I think. As you say, you are responsible for your own behaviour. I will now fix said blatant vandalism, assuming someone else hasn't already done so. --Merlinme (talk) 15:44, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. Don't worry, its not a Cl Ch article. But I only gave you an hour to spot it, which isn't really fair William M. Connolley (talk) 21:41, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm. I'll take your word for it that the ozone layer doesn't come under climate change. I can see why that's true... and I can see why that's a bit, umm... possibly contentious by those looking for reasons to eliminate you. But you understand the limits much better than I do. Keep identifying vandalism and I will keep fixing. Hopefully no-one can object to removing vandalism. --Merlinme (talk) 22:40, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. Don't worry, its not a Cl Ch article. But I only gave you an hour to spot it, which isn't really fair William M. Connolley (talk) 21:41, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- I came back here to respond to some of the points made, but I see WMC has hatted the discussion (presumably not interested in discussing further the points I made above). If anyone else who responded above would like to follow-up, they are welcome to do so on my talk page until a more suitable venue is found, as I think a discussion on what user talk space is really for would be useful.
- Any further points specifically about WMC's block (other than what I've said below), I will reserve for any appeal that is filed, though my stance remains the same: just because user talk space (or any venue) is not explicitly included in a topic ban, that doesn't mean actions in that name space or venue are allowed and/or sensible. The sensible course of action (when it was clear that there was disagreement over this) would have been for WMC to file a clarification stating specifically that he wished to use his user talk space to point out vandalism and other 'breakage' within the topic area and ask ArbCom to rule on that (possibly asking at WP:AE first before taking to ArbCom). If WMC would like to file such a request for clarification, he could request an unblock solely to do that (group clarifications are less helpful - see what Biophys said here - though the result of any such clarification would still be notified to the other editors it affected).
If WMC made an undertaking to abide by the result of such a clarification, he would likely remain unblocked. Carcharoth (talk) 04:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks, Carcharoth, that looks like a promising approach and I commend it to WMC. . . dave souza, talk 06:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm baffled. What point is there being unblocked only to file an appeal that C has already decided to reject? William M. Connolley (talk) 14:37, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
@C: sorry, you gave up replying, so I decided to tidy up. I've unhatted it now so you can reply William M. Connolley (talk) 09:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
@C: this specific point (use of talk pages) was raised directly during the case. Not a single arb bothered to take the time to say that use of talk pages was forbidden. You cannot possibly complain that people would suspect that they were permitted, given the precedent for doing exactly that. Even now, it is noticeable (I think) that no arb has forbidden it explicitly. I can only asume that this is because you don't want to be forced to block your friends William M. Connolley (talk) 14:53, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
C had previously based his argument for "leaving the CC topic well behind, unwatch all the CC pages" on the assumption that the rest of the community would take over the task of maintaining all the pages without any problems. Then from C's POV, the only problem with with not doing that is staying involved in the topic area longer than necessary, which is less than optimal.
However, the fact that acts of vandalism are not always reverted in a reasonable time (because it takes time for the community to begin monitoring the large number of CC articles) and that this has been used to bait editors at AE to play the same sort of game (the, as Jehochman put it, "ban my opponent" game) that sank the General Sanctions board is, of course, noted by C and other Arbitrators. So, they may well be open to reconsider things. Count Iblis (talk) 15:02, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- Personally I read Carcharoth's post as something of an attempted olive branch. Basically, if you apply to ArbCom for permission to notify CC vandalism on your talk page, C would support it. I would be very surprised if Carcharoth had made the suggestion with the intention of rejecting it. What would be the point? It would just be a waste of everyone's time.
- ArbCom as a whole might feel differently and reject it. And you might feel that the issue should have been dealt with clearly before; you might feel that being blocked for something which wasn't clear is injust (and you know I would agree with you). But if there's a chance of making progress, I would have thought it's worth trying. --Merlinme (talk) 20:22, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- You are optimistic than me. I see C's post as an attempt to appear reasonable whilst offering nothing. It is a cynical attempt to deflect future blame / his conscience (insert obvious comment here). But to the substance: there should be no need for this Kremlinology / reading the goat's entrails. If C is in favour of lifting the use-talk-pages ban, he simply needs to say so. There is no new evidence to offer; all the sane people have already pointed out that the case decision doesn't cover user talk; the arbs have studiously ignored that point; they aren't suddenly going to change their minds (ditto) now. As for your idea that C wouldn't suggest it because it would be a waste of veryone's time: that very clearly is too optimistic. This entire stupid ban has been a vast waste of time William M. Connolley (talk) 20:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I'm essentially an optimist who prefers to believe the best about people. You clearly don't see it like that. But let's put it this way: what exactly is lost by following Carcharoth's suggestion? The worst that can happen is that it comes to nothing. It might take up some of your Wikipedia time, but given the topic ban I'm assuming you have some time you would normally spend defending CC articles (and essentially this would be defending CC articles). The best that can happen is that it is agreed that you are allowed to alert people to vandalism in CC articles. --Merlinme (talk) 22:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- You are optimistic than me. I see C's post as an attempt to appear reasonable whilst offering nothing. It is a cynical attempt to deflect future blame / his conscience (insert obvious comment here). But to the substance: there should be no need for this Kremlinology / reading the goat's entrails. If C is in favour of lifting the use-talk-pages ban, he simply needs to say so. There is no new evidence to offer; all the sane people have already pointed out that the case decision doesn't cover user talk; the arbs have studiously ignored that point; they aren't suddenly going to change their minds (ditto) now. As for your idea that C wouldn't suggest it because it would be a waste of veryone's time: that very clearly is too optimistic. This entire stupid ban has been a vast waste of time William M. Connolley (talk) 20:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- The point I was trying to make (and it feeds back into what I said earlier about taking a step back and considering what user talk pages are really for) is that this is not the right venue to seek clarification of an ArbCom case remedy (in this case the boundaries of a topic ban). All that has happened so far is that various arbs (but not all) have opined in various places (such as the arbitration committee noticeboard talk page and this user talk page and possibly some other places). None of those are formal clarifications, and none of them carry the weight of an en banc clarification from the committee as a whole. The correct venue for a formal clarification (one where you should get responses from most of the other arbitrators and not just a few of them, and a venue where you will get more detailed explanations than can be given here) is: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification (please note what I said earlier that it is possible to request to be unblocked solely for filing such a clarification request, or to ask for a clarification request to be filed on your behalf). Having said that, I will now stick to what I said earlier and not comment further here, and I'll wait for something to appear there if anyone thinks that a formal clarification is needed. Carcharoth (talk) 23:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- We seem to be going around in circles, whilst you are being pointlessly bureaucratic. All the arbs have seen this block. Not one has felt any need to say "hang on, this block might not be valid, we need a clarification here". OTOH none have had the guts to clearly state that it does apply. I don't see any chance of you being any less weaselly elsewhere. I'll file a clarification request when I'm able to, but I know full well that you are just wasting my time William M. Connolley (talk) 12:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- @ WMC, As an ancient bureaucrat may I advise that preparing your case and formally requesting unblocking for the sole purpose of seeking clarification is the way to get the issue properly examined. Merely complaining that others should have read your talk page leaves the way open to plausible deniability, setting out the detailed case at least shows reasonable behaviour on your own part which should be taken into account, and puts the issues on record. Apart from anything else, it has the prospect of incremental success, which inaction lacks. . . dave souza, talk 16:56, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think we're going round in circles, too. I think C's offer is worthless, for the reaons I've given. Like I said: I'll file a clarification request when I'm able to, but I know full well that you are just wasting my time William M. Connolley (talk) 20:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- @ WMC, As an ancient bureaucrat may I advise that preparing your case and formally requesting unblocking for the sole purpose of seeking clarification is the way to get the issue properly examined. Merely complaining that others should have read your talk page leaves the way open to plausible deniability, setting out the detailed case at least shows reasonable behaviour on your own part which should be taken into account, and puts the issues on record. Apart from anything else, it has the prospect of incremental success, which inaction lacks. . . dave souza, talk 16:56, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- We seem to be going around in circles, whilst you are being pointlessly bureaucratic. All the arbs have seen this block. Not one has felt any need to say "hang on, this block might not be valid, we need a clarification here". OTOH none have had the guts to clearly state that it does apply. I don't see any chance of you being any less weaselly elsewhere. I'll file a clarification request when I'm able to, but I know full well that you are just wasting my time William M. Connolley (talk) 12:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Secret message
Your conduct is being discussed at my talk page (though only peripherally). If there is anything you need to say in response please post it here and I may or may not meatpuppet it onto my page, depending on whether I do or don't. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:56, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- Sekrit answer: can you tell SF that I saw someone comment of 8 significant edit wars to break out during the case, WMC was a primary participant in seven of them is twaddle (you may of course use rather more polite phrasing, or not, at your pleasure) and that commenting on such a case by merely repeating tittle-tattle is a poor way for an Arb to behave.
- As for Coren, I don't think there is much hope of cradcking the veil of denial, but H's comment xhez NYB first, that you should immediately cease all back-room negotiations is interesting - perhaps you could ask C if any deals were done? Also, I'd be grateful if you could entirely ignore C's advice about whipping the incident into a froth your risk - that is all self-serving on C's part. They are embarrased by the stupidity of the situation they have created and are desperately hoping everyone will shut up.
- As for RD, you should point out the anomaly of my being blocked while Cla gets off free William M. Connolley (talk) 08:21, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- @Boris: as to EfV, I'd suggest a check against TS William M. Connolley (talk) 12:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Arbs stuff; not much use |
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(undent) WMC, I'm going to be very blunt: your delusions of persecution are unfounded. I don't know why you are under the impression that you are, somehow important or significant enough to warrant vast conspiracies to victimize you. You were not singled out. You were not discussed any more or less than the other bit players in a tiresome dispute over the CC area. The only reason you have been further sanctioned is that, unlike most of the other disputants, you continue to battle your way around. Rlevse was not "kicked out" of anything, certainly not on your account. Any illusion to the contrary is nothing but delusions of grandeur and importance. — Coren (talk) 16:21, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
(ecx2) :::::If that's the case, why wasn't more of the case discussed out in the open? I think that is what the problem is with this and what the editors here are trying to say. More conversations were needed out in the open. --CrohnieGalTalk 17:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC) |
There was, of course, discussion of the case on the mailing list — though nowhere to the extent that some people imagine — but they were not substantive points but points of process; things like coordination of who was to write new proposals, suggested rewordings, exhortations to vote and get the effing case done. But, unlike what some people imagine, the actual nature of the decision gets very little attention on the list: you'll see the vast majority of that discussion and give-and-take on the decision page proper. (Coren) This is the most alarming thing I've seen in all the vast verbiage I've seen devoted to the case. I, like most rational people I expect, assumed that long delays during the proposed decision process, and the lack of workshopping and transparency in the discussion of the proposed decision, meant that, for whatever reason, the committee had decided to conduct their deliberations on the case behind closed doors. If this (bolded statement) is true and there were no substantive discussions on the decision behind closed doors, if in fact the only deliberations were the few brief exchanges that were visible on the proposed decision page, then I don't know what to say. I wouldn't go so far as WMC has done in questioning the veracity of Coren's assertion, I'll only say that to believe that the statement is not true is less damaging to ArbCom's credibility than believing that it's true, because believing that it's true means accepting that there were actually no deliberations of substance, which is not acceptable. Woonpton (talk) 17:45, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Self-justifying/self-contraditary stuff from the arbs; thanks for the link Ed |
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We've got one arb saying the mailing list discussions were few and "not substantive points but points of process" and another arb saying "several discussions, en banc, took place to see what broad consensus existed for various approaches," along with several other inconsistencies.
But the most troubling point remains Coren's statement that "the vast majority of that discussion and give-and-take on the decision page proper." Since discussion on the decision page was perfunctory this demands the conclusion that there was practically no deliberation amongst the arbs regarding the merits of the case.
In short, you can't have it both ways. You can't say on the one hand that there was "considerable discussion among the drafting arbitrators" and on the other that the discussion was mainly limited to the perfunctory comments we saw on the decision page. You guys aren't very good at this; if you care about retaining the sliver of credibility you have left you'll need to agree on a common story and stick with it. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 14:29, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Range block
Fixed for now, but not I susepct for good |
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- ZOMG!!! Thanks Stephan; there are at least a few sane and competent admins left, it would seem. Presumably it will re-trigger. I suppose I could always not-edit from work :-) William M. Connolley (talk) 14:41, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
For the record, there was no range block in place and your remarks were inappropriate. Roger talk 16:07, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- There was a block in place; I really don't know of what type. Why don't you tell us all? You could have done something about it, but all you do is snipe. But since you raise "inappropriate" - do you think it was appropriate for Beeblebrox to block all of CSR (and then do nothing about it)? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
AE Appeal
There being no consensus of uninvolved administrators to overturn your block I have closed your AE appeal accordingly. Your appeal is denied and the terms of the block are in force. Should you not agree with this decision you may appeal the matter directly to Arbcom. --WGFinley (talk) 22:55, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your wisdom is broken, but I cannot fault your ability to count William M. Connolley (talk) 14:24, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- Take a look at the clarification page; it appears that Roger Davies has posted 3 motions - the last of which specifically mentions you. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:25, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Time for a new strategy
I don't know about you, but I think all this drama is unnecessary. My three-part plan:
- Stop editing here.
- Check in now and again to see what is going to pot and what isn't.
- After some length of time, publish an assessment somewhere.
Truth being, if most of the craziness in article space here ends up being a "flash in the pan" that is soon corrected without your help, then you might as well use your free time for fun and all is well (better, in fact: we've proven that you don't need to watch and defend the pages, and you can thank the arbs for your newfound free time). However, if lots of things have gone horribly wrong, then it will look like ArbComm's decision did not work out so well and WP is suffering quality-wise as a result.
I say this because (1) I don't think that anything that you would do will make arbcomm revoke your topic ban come 6 months, and (2) regardless of wording, CC is beyond all bounds at the moment (and per #1 will remain so indefinitely). So I can see no reason to do anything but sit and watch. Awickert (talk) 00:42, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, I think ArbCom would revoke the ban in a suspended animation passenger's heartbeat if WMC would promise to play nice, and actually do so. Some of the most uncivil blocked / banned editors are back here feeding their Wikipedia addictions with a new account and a fresh start. I thought the block was nonsense on a technical level, but if it weren't this it would be something else. I wish I had some constructive advice but I'm stumped. Anyway, WMC has contributed quite a bit to Wikipedia and by extension the world, so... thanks! - Wikidemon (talk) 02:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- As ever, WMC has pushed right up to the boundary of normal playing nice, and acted in a constructive way which has been accepted from other (in this case topic-banned) editors in the past. For example, responding to discussion here by saying "liars" isn't really civil, is unwise, and is certainly undiplomatic. It's probably twattery too, but such terms should be avoided, not least because they have different cultural connotations across the globe.
- Carcharoth proposes a sensible way forward at #Talk page access above. @ WMC, my strong recommendation is to do what's suggested, politely and carefully. . . dave souza, talk 06:51, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
@AW: I'm sure you mean well but my reply to MM applies. @Wd: I can't parse your first sentence. @Ds: I don't understand your assessment of C's proposal; see above William M. Connolley (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- AW's comments seem sensible, if "Wiki self-preservation" is your aim, as may not be. The degree of hostility that I'm seeing directed at you is remarkable. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:57, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't think that your comments @MM applied. I don't care about martyrdom, etc., or any dramas. Just seems like your participation in your area of expertise is currently and indefinitely not permitted, so there's only one option left. Of course, Scotty brings up my first major assumption, which may be wrong (my others are that you are not going to run around and make FAs on other things that you don't care so much about and that arbcomm won't unban you if you don't). But if I am wrong about #1, then what is your motive? Awickert (talk) 18:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- [Aside: Yes, the degree of hostility is stupid. Insulting one another online is childish, and anonymous users giving insults is cowardly as well.] Awickert (talk) 18:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- @ WMC, my assessment of Carcharoth's proposal made in the #Breakage section above (dunno if the heading changed or if I got it wrong) is that you should request unblocking to file a request to ArbCom that they rule on a clarification in specific respect of your wish to use your user talk space to point out vandalism and other 'breakage' within the topic area.
Perhaps Carcharoth will advise further, but it would seem reasonable that you could then point out that your noting such breakage in a non-confrontational way on your own talk page is not specifically ruled out in the ArbCom decision, and is established by past practice as well as by the common sense point that the novel interpretation of this restriction is much more restrictive than the standard Exceptions to limited bans, which usually allows "Reverting obvious vandalism (such as replacing a page with obscenities) or obvious violations of the policy about biographies of living persons. The key word is "obvious", that is, cases in which no reasonable person could possibly disagree." . . dave souza, talk 19:01, 30 October 2010 (UTC)- Carcharoth's proposal is at once interesting and a bit confusing. He mixes past ("the sensible course of action...would have been") and future ("if WMC would like to file") tenses in such a way that it isn't clear whether he's describing what WMC should have done, of whether an appeal remains a viable option. So clarification from Carcharoth would be helpful before going further. In any event Arbcom have already expended a great deal of discussion and political capital saying that although it was not stated at the time they meant for ban to apply even to innocuous comments on users' own talk pages. Under the circumstances I doubt that they would do a complete volte-face in response to an appeal but who knows. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 19:15, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- C's proposal makes no sense at all. If C thinks that it is unclear whether the arbcomm decision cover talk pages, then it would immeadiately be clear to him that the block on me is unjust: it cannot possibly be reasonable to block someone with no warning for something that arbcomm have not clearly stated is blockable William M. Connolley (talk) 21:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- Some other arbs may or may not think so, C's proposal gives a way forward to raising that formally for ArbCom discussion, putting the point over and giving at least a reasonable prospect that you will be unblocked and authorised to continue making careful and non-confrontational reports of breakage on your talk page. No point in just shaking the prison bars demanding justice when a way to justice is open to you. . . dave souza, talk 22:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- There are plenty of other things to edit but I doubt that if I were WMC I would bother to do so in the near term. FA work is fine and I'm sure WMC could assist in non CC related article improvement but once a bulls eye get painted on anyone of this high a profile on this project, someone is always going to be the ready to play smackdown if such an editor so much as twitches "incorrectly"...my understanding as it was clarified to me was that user talkpages, even your own user talkpage are taboo for issues related to the topic ban.--MONGO 03:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- What we have here is a sort of Cultural Revolution where intellectuals are surrounded and shouted down by brainwashed youths in the strident and peculiar language of revolutionary Wikislogans. Your bourgeois "knowledge" is outmoded, your glasses have been crushed beneath their boots, and you must make a fresh start at the bottom of the new workers' hierarchy, scrubbing toilets and washing dishes.24.18.132.13 (talk) 08:12, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- @DS: All the other arbs have seen this - but anyway, we're managing to have the same conversation in two places in one page, which isn't helpful. @MONGO: I've never been intersted in the FA hoops William M. Connolley (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- Choose your place, will continue at #Breakage unless advised otherwise, in triplicate. . . dave souza, talk 16:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- @DS: All the other arbs have seen this - but anyway, we're managing to have the same conversation in two places in one page, which isn't helpful. @MONGO: I've never been intersted in the FA hoops William M. Connolley (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- Some other arbs may or may not think so, C's proposal gives a way forward to raising that formally for ArbCom discussion, putting the point over and giving at least a reasonable prospect that you will be unblocked and authorised to continue making careful and non-confrontational reports of breakage on your talk page. No point in just shaking the prison bars demanding justice when a way to justice is open to you. . . dave souza, talk 22:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- C's proposal makes no sense at all. If C thinks that it is unclear whether the arbcomm decision cover talk pages, then it would immeadiately be clear to him that the block on me is unjust: it cannot possibly be reasonable to block someone with no warning for something that arbcomm have not clearly stated is blockable William M. Connolley (talk) 21:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- Carcharoth's proposal is at once interesting and a bit confusing. He mixes past ("the sensible course of action...would have been") and future ("if WMC would like to file") tenses in such a way that it isn't clear whether he's describing what WMC should have done, of whether an appeal remains a viable option. So clarification from Carcharoth would be helpful before going further. In any event Arbcom have already expended a great deal of discussion and political capital saying that although it was not stated at the time they meant for ban to apply even to innocuous comments on users' own talk pages. Under the circumstances I doubt that they would do a complete volte-face in response to an appeal but who knows. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 19:15, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- @ WMC, my assessment of Carcharoth's proposal made in the #Breakage section above (dunno if the heading changed or if I got it wrong) is that you should request unblocking to file a request to ArbCom that they rule on a clarification in specific respect of your wish to use your user talk space to point out vandalism and other 'breakage' within the topic area.
- [Aside: Yes, the degree of hostility is stupid. Insulting one another online is childish, and anonymous users giving insults is cowardly as well.] Awickert (talk) 18:06, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
The sock speaks
[23] and spam elsewhere. Isn't it time some CU put it out of its misery? William M. Connolley (talk) 09:03, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- That's best done after you file the clarification request. Engineer from Vega should get the chance to explain why you getting blocked when you point to uncorrected vandalism, is a good thing. Count Iblis (talk) 15:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
- I tend to agree that a checkuser would settle the matter once and for all. I personally rather objected to having that message cut and pasted to my Talk page, bearing in mind that if anything I was defending EFV against the sock allegation. Mainly because I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt; but I certainly wasn't even attempting to apply political pressure. --Merlinme (talk) 20:10, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Shell / Rlevse / LHVU
Anyone else noticed Shell's untrue Arbiters don't make accusations, other parties (oftentimes involved in the same dispute) present evidence, suggest findings and so on? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Rlevse: [24] William M. Connolley (talk) 12:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- Loss of an arbitrator? --CrohnieGalTalk 12:31, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- He seems miffed at a couple of things unrelated to arbcom. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think this is entirely to do with DYK. Polargeo 2 (talk) 11:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Bit of a shame really William M. Connolley (talk) 12:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- It wasn't just DYK. He was an author of the FA on the main page for Halloween, and was accused of plagiarism and a copyvio in a way that exacerbated the damage from the attacks on DYK. I suspect (on little evidence) that he was also fairly burned out recently. I had issues with Rlevse as an arbitrator, but his work at DYK was tireless and of an extremely high standard. I for one am very sad to see him lost from the project entirely, his contribution is sorely missed. EdChem (talk) 13:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- No-one's perfect, and judge not, lest ye be judged, comes to mind. Both DYK and FA promote competition among editors, rather than a primary interest in providing factual well-balanced info for everyone, and FA in my experience can be pretty stressful. Plagiarism is subject to assessment, and it's not all that obvious where to strike the right balance between faithfully following the source and finding your own way of saying things. Rlevse obviously did a lot of good work, but for whatever reason may have felt it appropriate to cut corners in producing DYK and FA articles. More tolerance of imperfection and focus on improving article quality rather than on getting rid of editors would be a Good Thing. . . . dave souza, talk 13:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia needs to do away with the whole FA process. It does not evaluate article quality in a meaningful way, and promotes a reward-driven mentality. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. We all know how difficult it can be to tread the line of proper recognition of sources. I believe I fall the right side of the line but then I don't have 20 DYKs and 10 FAs (I have always had a certain disdain of editors with long lists of DYKs running for RfA, with that as their main selling point). Rlevse was clearly trying to attribute to sources properly and trying not to cross the line. However, when you have skipped close to the line so much and the wikiwolves sink their teeth into you there is little you can do (that goes for many aspects of wikipedia). Polargeo 2 (talk) 13:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- No-one's perfect, and judge not, lest ye be judged, comes to mind. Both DYK and FA promote competition among editors, rather than a primary interest in providing factual well-balanced info for everyone, and FA in my experience can be pretty stressful. Plagiarism is subject to assessment, and it's not all that obvious where to strike the right balance between faithfully following the source and finding your own way of saying things. Rlevse obviously did a lot of good work, but for whatever reason may have felt it appropriate to cut corners in producing DYK and FA articles. More tolerance of imperfection and focus on improving article quality rather than on getting rid of editors would be a Good Thing. . . . dave souza, talk 13:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- It wasn't just DYK. He was an author of the FA on the main page for Halloween, and was accused of plagiarism and a copyvio in a way that exacerbated the damage from the attacks on DYK. I suspect (on little evidence) that he was also fairly burned out recently. I had issues with Rlevse as an arbitrator, but his work at DYK was tireless and of an extremely high standard. I for one am very sad to see him lost from the project entirely, his contribution is sorely missed. EdChem (talk) 13:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Bit of a shame really William M. Connolley (talk) 12:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- I think this is entirely to do with DYK. Polargeo 2 (talk) 11:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- He seems miffed at a couple of things unrelated to arbcom. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yup, the entire reward-driven mentality is broken. And, of course, the recent arbcomm decision just reinforces the brokenness. Incidentally, in case I'm misunderstood: I meant, it is a shame that he didn't stand down for being a rubbish arb, which is why he really deserved to go William M. Connolley (talk) 14:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yes but he was no less rubbish than most of the rest of them. Polargeo 2 (talk) 14:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- I think you are wrong there - he was rubbish and malicious too William M. Connolley (talk) 15:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Okay. I get the impression most of the "advanced" permissions users have a tendency to be malicious. It seems to me that those who crave power tend not to think so much when exercising it and just play their political games. Polargeo 2 (talk) 16:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) I'm puzzled; is this extremely subtle sarcasm, or do you mean he was no more rubbish than the rest of them?
- I think you are wrong there - he was rubbish and malicious too William M. Connolley (talk) 15:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yes but he was no less rubbish than most of the rest of them. Polargeo 2 (talk) 14:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yup, the entire reward-driven mentality is broken. And, of course, the recent arbcomm decision just reinforces the brokenness. Incidentally, in case I'm misunderstood: I meant, it is a shame that he didn't stand down for being a rubbish arb, which is why he really deserved to go William M. Connolley (talk) 14:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Re: Rlevse, I find it hard to believe that people opining above are familiar with the facts of the matter. I'm aware that the contradictory rules of Wikipedia leave editors walking a fine line between "stick to the source" and "don't stick to the source too closely" but this was way on the far side of that line. That people are dismissing such blatant copying as an example of "wikiwolves sinking their teeth" into Rlevse when he should have been given the benefit of the doubt, is baffling to me. It seems to me that he was given altogether too much benefit of the doubt during the FA process, and I've been surprised to learn that there is nothing in the process of reviewing articles for FA that requires that fidelity to sources be checked, let alone too-close-copying of copyrighted sources. That an entire passage of mostly directly copied text remained in an article being featured on the main page is a serious problem for the encyclopedia. That Rlevse still doesn't seem to understand what was wrong with directly lifting text from USA Today, and is still reportedly angry at those who uncovered the problem rather than sorry to have embarrassed the encyclopedia by "cutting corners," as dave put it, is the last straw on the balance of my judgment of him as an arbitrator (which BTW is based on his actions in an area far from CC; I've never followed CC except for the proposed decision and its talk page).
- re Shell: She has been hounded relentlessly by a couple of guys with a terminal case of IDIDNTHEARTHAT, who still won't let it go even after being told repeatedly to stop; to take one remark out of context out of that whole tendentious discussion to make a point of your own seems to me a cheap shot. Woonpton (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- As to Rlevse this is not the place to go into the details of copyright, I agree he made mistakes but I also think the wolves are ripping him to shreds over them in a very undignified way. As to Shell who are the hounders? fnord Tell us and the cabal will get them for you/her. Policing wikipedia behind the sceens is what we do!! fnord Polargeo 2 (talk) 16:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Mistakes? That reminds me of the famous saying "mistakes were made" excusing a major coverup on the part of high-level US administration. At any rate, I don't know where you're seeing "wolves" ripping Rlevse to shreds; it must be on some page I'm not watching. All I'm seeing is people making excuses for him and defending him and leaving tearful messages on his talk page. You're right, this isn't the place to debate copyright, but copyright really isn't that difficult. Every now and then, IRL, I run across copies of things I've written (here I'm talking about general-purpose writing, not scientific or statistical writing) taken and used in places where I never gave permission for it to be used, by people who never asked my permission to copy the text. People think that as long as they attribute the text to the writer, they have satisfied the requirements of copyright. No, you can't copy copyrighted work without the permission of the copyright owner; that's what copyright means.Woonpton (talk) 17:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Shall we start with MZMs fairly sly angled comment at the crats noticeboard or shall wee look at the baying hounds against DYK at ANI or any other forum. Self righteousness is not a good servant on wikipedia. Polargeo 2 (talk) 17:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- If you really think the question at the bureaucrats noticeboard (which seems a very reasonable question to me; if Rlevse comes back is he to be considered as having left under a cloud or not?) is an example of "wolves tearing Rlevse to shreds" then we apparently aren't speaking the same language, which makes it difficult to have a reasonable conversation. As for the questions about DYK, they seem very legitimate questions to me, and the information that has come to light about the DYK process during that discussion doesn't reflect well on the encyclopedia IMO. But it looks like we're not going to agree about that either, nor on whether raising questions about problems in the DYK process constitutes ripping Rlevse to shreds, nor apparently, by extension, on whether he should have kept his arb seat after the violations were discovered. So let's just agree to disagree and call it a day. Woonpton (talk) 17:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Shall we start with MZMs fairly sly angled comment at the crats noticeboard or shall wee look at the baying hounds against DYK at ANI or any other forum. Self righteousness is not a good servant on wikipedia. Polargeo 2 (talk) 17:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Mistakes? That reminds me of the famous saying "mistakes were made" excusing a major coverup on the part of high-level US administration. At any rate, I don't know where you're seeing "wolves" ripping Rlevse to shreds; it must be on some page I'm not watching. All I'm seeing is people making excuses for him and defending him and leaving tearful messages on his talk page. You're right, this isn't the place to debate copyright, but copyright really isn't that difficult. Every now and then, IRL, I run across copies of things I've written (here I'm talking about general-purpose writing, not scientific or statistical writing) taken and used in places where I never gave permission for it to be used, by people who never asked my permission to copy the text. People think that as long as they attribute the text to the writer, they have satisfied the requirements of copyright. No, you can't copy copyrighted work without the permission of the copyright owner; that's what copyright means.Woonpton (talk) 17:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- As to Rlevse this is not the place to go into the details of copyright, I agree he made mistakes but I also think the wolves are ripping him to shreds over them in a very undignified way. As to Shell who are the hounders? fnord Tell us and the cabal will get them for you/her. Policing wikipedia behind the sceens is what we do!! fnord Polargeo 2 (talk) 16:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- re Shell: She has been hounded relentlessly by a couple of guys with a terminal case of IDIDNTHEARTHAT, who still won't let it go even after being told repeatedly to stop; to take one remark out of context out of that whole tendentious discussion to make a point of your own seems to me a cheap shot. Woonpton (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
@ Woomption, and ignoring the obscure remarks by P2 et al., "cutting corners" was my kind way of putting it, but my feeling is that Rievse did a lot of good work without me having any view on his article contributions or Arbing – on a very strict reading of plagiarism, it's quite possible that many of us have transgressed while trying hard not to plagiarise the source. R went rather further, whether through haste or incompetence I can't tell, but to me that's a reason for counselling and improvemnt, not a blocking offence. Having said that, I don't agree with R et al. about the blocking of WMC, arbs would do better to acknowledge human imperfection and make decisions aimed at improving article content rather than punishing fairly minor transgressions. But of course that's not their remit. Dunno where Shell came into this conversation. Just noticed who started this section. . . dave souza, talk 17:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, *I*d also forgotten where Shell came in. No, I don't think that is a cheap shot. I was pissed off when (during the Abd case) Rlevse came well off the fence as neutral arbiter and started presenting evidence; I raised the propriety of this at the time and was fobbed off. So for Shell to pretend that it doesn't happen is just not acceptable William M. Connolley (talk) 17:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll concede the point. Woonpton (talk) 17:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Hold on, this *is* the .flame newsgroup, isn't it? You're not allowed to be reasonable :-) William M. Connolley (talk) 18:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll concede the point. Woonpton (talk) 17:51, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- (ec)Agree with all about Rlevse. Disagree about arbs focussing on content. This argument is extremely weak, all the arbs needed to do in the recent case was apply appropriate considered tailored sanctions to remedy editor behaviour and address the concerns regarding the probation. In the end they applied a lazy one size fits all punitive sanction which sanctioned most editors far more than was fair and maybe one or two editors got off without being banned from wikipedia. This failled to address the problems in the area 'going forward' I am probably at the limit of what I can discuss now even though it is about a sanction against myself!! Polargeo 2 (talk) 17:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
sorry to hear
[Wurble redacted - WMC] As I also said, this contrasted markedly with your own editing, which unfortunately in my opinion was frequently dismissive of rules, of editors who disagreed with you, and of course, your consistent disregard, and apparent contempt, especially, for the BLP policy. [Yet more self-pity, goo and dribble redacted - WMC] Alex Harvey (talk) 13:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- This doesn't square with your blog posts. Like Cla68, you say one thing in one forum and another thing in another forum. There's a term for someone who does that but I won't repeat it here. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:38, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I think AH is being two-faced. AH: I've cut some goo and dribble; I think [25] is more representative of what you actually think and unsurprisingly I think you're wrong. Your own recent contributions seem to be one piece of vandlaism and an awful lot of trouble making: you are adding nothing of value. The only reason you didn't get blocked in the recent case is because you were too trivial to notice and/or wisely kept away for the duration of the case. As for your consistent disregard, and apparent contempt, especially, for the BLP policy - you are lying. But there is nothing new or interesting in that. What is painfully obvious is your own consistent disregard of the science William M. Connolley (talk) 14:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- DS provides a useful example of AH's hypocrisy [26] William M. Connolley (talk) 16:10, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Climate change amendment: notification of three motions posted
Following a request for amendment to the Climate change case, three motions have been posted regarding the scope of topic bans, the appeal of topic bans, and a proposal to unblock two editors.
For and on behalf of the Arbitration Committee --Alexandr Dmitri (talk) 19:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- I see that Coren is as rubbish as ever: engaging in battleground behavior on their talk page is deliberate disinformation, or possibly a confession of ignorance; it is hard to know which is worse. As for the implied equivalence between me and MN: I reject it, of course (@SP: thanks for noticing this obvious point, even if it was too subtle for the arbs. Please continue your attempts to make RD see sense). Still, there is one saving grace of this nonsense: we'll find out whether Carc's offer was just a waste of time, or not William M. Connolley (talk) 22:05, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Ling.Nut
Just say no. Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Ling.Nut William M. Connolley (talk) 22:12, 2 November 2010 (UTC)