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== RFA canvassing == |
== RFA canvassing == |
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{{unresolved|1=Opinions seems to be divided here given that this was a posting to the users' own talk page. Is this considered "sending of messages to Wikipedians with the intent to inform them about a community discussion"? This is perhaps something that should be clarified to prevent future disagreement. In my opinion, the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:William_M._Connolley&diff=394462750&oldid=394461919 post] tends towards the inappropriate side of the [[WP:CANVASS]] scale. Though transparent, it was clearly biased. Whether it addressed a partisan audience remains to be seen - William M. Connolley's talk page is watched by many. This makes it unclear whether it would be considered a 'limited posting' or a 'mass posting'. Had this occurred earlier in the discussion, actions might have been taken to ensure a representative sample at the RFA. I would advise the subject against further such postings. –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 13:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC)}} |
{{unresolved|1=Opinions seems to be divided here given that this was a posting to the users' own talk page. Is this considered "sending of messages to Wikipedians with the intent to inform them about a community discussion"? This is perhaps something that should be clarified to prevent future disagreement. In my opinion, the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:William_M._Connolley&diff=394462750&oldid=394461919 post] tends towards the inappropriate side of the [[WP:CANVASS]] scale. Though transparent, it was clearly biased. Whether it addressed a partisan audience remains to be seen - William M. Connolley's talk page is watched by many. <s>This makes it unclear whether it would be considered a 'limited posting' or a 'mass posting'.</s> Had this occurred earlier in the discussion, actions might have been taken to ensure a representative sample at the RFA. I would advise the subject against further such postings. –[[user:xeno|<font face="verdana" color="black">'''xeno'''</font>]][[user talk:xeno|<font color="black"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 13:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC)}} |
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Does [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:William_M._Connolley&diff=394462750&oldid=394461919 this] count as canvassing for a particular result in an RFA? I supported the RFA (which is due to close in a few hours), so I don't think it would be appropriate for me to do anything other than report that edit here for consideration. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 00:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC) |
Does [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:William_M._Connolley&diff=394462750&oldid=394461919 this] count as canvassing for a particular result in an RFA? I supported the RFA (which is due to close in a few hours), so I don't think it would be appropriate for me to do anything other than report that edit here for consideration. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 00:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC) |
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:As the talk page has 473 watchers, and the user full well knows this, I'd say "yes". --[[User:Mkativerata|Mkativerata]] ([[User talk:Mkativerata|talk]]) 00:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC) |
:As the talk page has 473 watchers, and the user full well knows this, I'd say "yes". --[[User:Mkativerata|Mkativerata]] ([[User talk:Mkativerata|talk]]) 00:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:27, 5 November 2010
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![]() | It is 19:06:23 on August 20, 2024, according to the server's time and date. |
RFA closures and scheduled ending time
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- Moved from WT:RFA
I would like to discuss the nature of end times for voting. In general, bureaucrats have taken some liberty with the end times, often closing the matter a little early or late, especially when the consensus is clear. It seems to me that it may be best to wait until the end time for the nomination has actually passed before promoting or removing a nomination. Given the number of bureaucrats who follow RFA, the likelihood that a new admin will have to wait more than a day or two for promotion seems low. --Monterey Bay (talk) 02:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- That's currently what happens at the moment; crats typically only close RfAs after !voting time has passed. -FASTILY (TALK) 18:22, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- Looking at 46 successful nominations over the last six months (May to Oct),
tennine were closed or placed on hold before the scheduled ending time. (+2h +2m +11m +25m -44m -32m +1h +1h +12m +2h +5m +54m -49m-2h24+2h24 -4m +2h +24m +1m +0m -12m -12m +44m +4m -6m +1h +5m +31m +11m +4h +3h +15m +2h +26m +4h +1h +0m -1h15 +6h +0m +5h +1h30m -5h07 +0m -2m +6h) –xenotalk 18:56, 31 October 2010 (UTC)- I don't think half an hour makes much difference, but I don't think it would be best practice to close as successful with much more than that left on the clock. It doesn't look like a big issue, though—the majority seem to be closed a little while after their scheduled end time. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- As a guilty party for some of those, I will say that it's all common sense. Many of the 30m+ ones above are usually 95% support or better, where the chance of failure is getting very close to 0. Think of it as an early present. Is 30m really worth waiting for, when the consensus is clear? (X! · talk) · @980 · 22:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think half an hour makes much difference, but I don't think it would be best practice to close as successful with much more than that left on the clock. It doesn't look like a big issue, though—the majority seem to be closed a little while after their scheduled end time. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:18, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
- An exception is clearly this close by User:Nihonjoe as sucessful in the discretionary zone at 78.6 percent nearly 2.5 hours before time was up. This obviously should not happen. Polargeo 2 (talk) 16:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps I'm reading things wrong, but that one appears to have been closed 2.5 hours late. That diff clearly shows the close time to be 10:01 am, and it was closed at 12:25 pm. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 06:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry I was going by xeno's timings. Should always learn to check these things. Polargeo 2 (talk) 10:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Mea culpa, stand on me. –xenotalk 13:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry I was going by xeno's timings. Should always learn to check these things. Polargeo 2 (talk) 10:01, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps I'm reading things wrong, but that one appears to have been closed 2.5 hours late. That diff clearly shows the close time to be 10:01 am, and it was closed at 12:25 pm. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 06:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
- An exception is clearly this close by User:Nihonjoe as sucessful in the discretionary zone at 78.6 percent nearly 2.5 hours before time was up. This obviously should not happen. Polargeo 2 (talk) 16:45, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Idly wondering
Wifione ....... Leave a message 03:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
![]() Whether the weather of Rlevse's departure would be classified as cloudy. --MZMcBride (talk) 07:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
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RFA canvassing
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Does this count as canvassing for a particular result in an RFA? I supported the RFA (which is due to close in a few hours), so I don't think it would be appropriate for me to do anything other than report that edit here for consideration. Carcharoth (talk) 00:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- As the talk page has 473 watchers, and the user full well knows this, I'd say "yes". --Mkativerata (talk) 00:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Don't agree. It's his talk page. Arbcom elections have similar campaigns and I don't see the difference here. Besides, it could end up positive for the candidate. AD 00:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Clear canvassing. Wifione ....... Leave a message 03:11, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
It is, butI didn't see evidence that it had a major effect on the course of the RFA. A number of opposes and supports were added after the incident with no apparent connection to it. bibliomaniac15 04:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)- Just so I'm clear: are users forbidden to express their opinion on an RfA on their own usertalk page? Are they permitted to voice their opinions so long as their userpage has < n watchers, where n =... what, exactly? MastCell Talk 05:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Just expressing one's own opinion on one's own user talk page is not considered canvassing. If he had proceeded to post that same opinion on multiple other talk pages, that would be canvassing. This is very clearly not canvassing. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Responding specifically to MastCell's point (despite the indenting), the correct place to express an opinion on an RFA is at the RFA page set up for that purpose. Expressing an opinion elsewhere risks skewing the results by drawing an unrepresentative sample of people to the RFA. Carcharoth (talk) 09:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Well yebut - wasn't this editor only recently the subject of an ArbCase clarification which revolved around their use of their (well-watched) user-talk page to advocate certain edits by others, or suspicion thereof? Nothing in the recent ArbCom findings applies here, but it's a worrisome trend. Franamax (talk) 09:01, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. My opinion is that this is a clear case of canvassing for people to go and "say no" on that RFA (which has now closed). I appreciate that the canvassing came late in the day (only a few hours and a few comments before the close), so it had no appreciable effect, but it was still, in my opinion, an attempt to affect the result of the RFA. One way to find out would be to ask the editor in question why he made that edit and who he was addressing that edit to. There is also a clear difference between drawing people's attention to an RFA (sometimes acceptable depending on the context), and explicitly asking people to vote one way or the other (not acceptable, in my view).
- If you look at the history of the user talk page in question, there are a series of edits that are clearly addressed to a watching audience - which I see as a misuse of a user talk page. User talk pages should be for messages to the person whose page it is, or for short discussions that don't really fit anywhere else. User talk pages should not be a venue for centralised discussions best held elsewhere, and they should not be a place to make announcements to a group of users you know are watching your talk page. Finally, I disagree that there are not instances of opposes made to the RFA that likely appeared after the canvassing notice appeared on the user talk page. What I would do is look at the opposes that appeared after the notice was posted, and see whether those people normally vote in RFAs or not.
- To give another example of how a notice elsewhere draws people to a discussion: xeno notified the user of this discussion (thanks for doing that, xeno), and that could have prompted subsequent edits here by people watching that user talk page. That's nothing new, but the point I'm making here is that notices left on user talk pages, even your own user talk page, can act as notification to more people than just the user whose talk page it is. I think that WP:CANVASS should take that into account, if it doesn't already, but that would be a discussion for the talk page over there.
- As far as this matter goes, I would hope that the following happens: (1) Someone asks the editor why they made that edit and who they were talking to; (2) The distinction is made clear that the edit was not just drawing attention to the RFA, but was explicitly advocating opposition; (3) That bureaucrats say what they will do in future if a notice of this nature (or similar) appears elsewhere on-wiki at the start of an RFA (or point to previous discussions on this sort of thing).
- Apologies for the length of this post, but I wanted to make my points clear. Carcharoth (talk) 09:27, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it's appropriate for Arbs to try to influence the opinions of the community in this manner. Please try not to engage in contentious advocacy of this nature while there is a chance that it hurts your office. I am not entirely serious, obviously. Hans Adler 10:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Just expressing one's own opinion on one's own user talk page is not considered canvassing. If he had proceeded to post that same opinion on multiple other talk pages, that would be canvassing. This is very clearly not canvassing. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Just so I'm clear: are users forbidden to express their opinion on an RfA on their own usertalk page? Are they permitted to voice their opinions so long as their userpage has < n watchers, where n =... what, exactly? MastCell Talk 05:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Clear canvassing. Wifione ....... Leave a message 03:11, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Don't agree. It's his talk page. Arbcom elections have similar campaigns and I don't see the difference here. Besides, it could end up positive for the candidate. AD 00:55, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
I think attempting to stretch WP:CANVASS to a new level to stop users posting opinions on processes on their own talkpage simply so User:William M. Connolley can recieve another bash over the head is poor. You might not like it but I see nothing in the behavioral guideline that covers this and what is more the RfA was within 5 hours of closing and the statement, as I am fairly sure William knew, had no chance of making any difference. What is more I don't think advocating a position is technically wrong, canvassing is wrong but not advocating your own position, please point me to the page that says otherwise. (please don't point me to WP:Advocacy because that is unrelated to specifying what your own position is on a wikipedia process which is clearly allowed) Polargeo 2 (talk) 09:52, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Assuming I am allowed to comment here (life is too short to read all the small print) I am inclined to say that anyone who adds a user talk page to their watch list does so at their own risk, it is still a user talk page with allowed liberties. Canvassing is approaching other people with your views, whereas people who have watched your talkpage have already asked the question. Within some limits people are free to express their views on stuff and it is a bit counterproductive to try to deal with a symptom rather than the problem. The problem is a mismatch (demonstrated by the numbers of talk pages watchers) between the number of people in the community are either interested, amused or enjoy being outraged by WMC's opinions and the view that Winston Smith should have no voice (as it were). Why not credit the rest of us with enough sense to see opinions in context? I have never seen many people running around to support WMC mindlessly, half the time he is disagreed with. --BozMo talk 09:54, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Agree, I moved from oppose to neutral in the RfA after a constructive discussion with Ling.Nut on his talkpage. There is no way any personal opinion WMC could have put on his talkpage would have changed me back to oppose. Polargeo 2 (talk) 10:08, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
Forbidding users from posting their reasonable opinions on their own talk pages is an idea that is so bad that I don't even know where to begin. May I suggest that you, Carcharoth, in the future run all public statements on-Wiki by me before making them? Use form X-15-666.1984, in triplicate, please. I promise that I will quickly process such requests and let you know, often within the same quarter, if the statement, made by an influential and well-watched member of the community, will potentially exercise undue undue influence on the mindless masses so as to lead to results not desirable for The Community, or whether it is harmless fluff that you are allowed to post. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:59, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Carcharoth: About these "discussions best held elsewhere" — exactly where would you suggest when editors are restricted to their own talk pages, and you would further restrict what can be discussed there? - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Editors restricted to their own talk pages should be addressing the reasons they were blocked. If someone who is blocked wants to comment at an RFA, they should get their priorities straight and first address the reasons why they were blocked. Once that is done, they would likely be unblocked, and then they could comment on the RFA. User talk pages are not a space for people to carry on participating in the encyclopedia while they are blocked, but that is exactly what happened here. If they don't accept the reason they were blocked, fine, appeal the block, or wait for the block to expire, but don't spend the period of time until the block expires trying to circumvent the block by addressing a talk page audience and attempting to influence the outcome of matters elsewhere, including an RFA they happen to spot and want to express an opinion on. Seriously, if any other blocked editor had put up a notice telling his talk page watchers to go and vote no on an RFA, what would have happened? Anyway, I am busy now until Friday evening, but I hope that more bureaucrats will comment here than have done so far (I think two have commented so far, one retracting his earlier statement). My initial post here was a question asking the bureaucrats as a group whether this edit was canvassing, but typically the discussion has got out of control with people drawing incorrect comparison with ArbCom elections (a completely different kettle of fish to RFAs) and using ridicule and satire to divert attention from the real issues here. Put simply, I saw what I still see as blatant non-neutral canvassing related to an RFA, and I reported it here to the bureaucrats. I am still hopeful that the bureaucrats as a group will be prepared to give an answer to the questions I posed above. Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- Seriously, if any other blocked editor had put up a notice telling his talk page watchers to go and vote no on an RFA, what would have happened? - most likely, nobody would have given a hoot, and rightly so. I'll have to say, I'm appalled by this. What happened to I don't think it would be appropriate for me to do anything other than report that edit here for consideration? Instead you go off on several long rants that have nothing to do with the outcome of the RfA, and all with speculating about the motives behind and appropriateness of another editors comments. Sorry, but that does not look like good faith to me. Your complaint is specious to begin with, and this is an inappropriate forum to discuss editor behaviour. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- Editors restricted to their own talk pages should be addressing the reasons they were blocked. If someone who is blocked wants to comment at an RFA, they should get their priorities straight and first address the reasons why they were blocked. Once that is done, they would likely be unblocked, and then they could comment on the RFA. User talk pages are not a space for people to carry on participating in the encyclopedia while they are blocked, but that is exactly what happened here. If they don't accept the reason they were blocked, fine, appeal the block, or wait for the block to expire, but don't spend the period of time until the block expires trying to circumvent the block by addressing a talk page audience and attempting to influence the outcome of matters elsewhere, including an RFA they happen to spot and want to express an opinion on. Seriously, if any other blocked editor had put up a notice telling his talk page watchers to go and vote no on an RFA, what would have happened? Anyway, I am busy now until Friday evening, but I hope that more bureaucrats will comment here than have done so far (I think two have commented so far, one retracting his earlier statement). My initial post here was a question asking the bureaucrats as a group whether this edit was canvassing, but typically the discussion has got out of control with people drawing incorrect comparison with ArbCom elections (a completely different kettle of fish to RFAs) and using ridicule and satire to divert attention from the real issues here. Put simply, I saw what I still see as blatant non-neutral canvassing related to an RFA, and I reported it here to the bureaucrats. I am still hopeful that the bureaucrats as a group will be prepared to give an answer to the questions I posed above. Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- Carcharoth: About these "discussions best held elsewhere" — exactly where would you suggest when editors are restricted to their own talk pages, and you would further restrict what can be discussed there? - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
The notion that CANVASSING isn't broken on a fair number RfA's is a joke. It is routinely broken, it is just that people do so a little more subtly than done here... how often do people goto somebody's page and make a post "about your !vote at X's RfA" or something along those lines. I would guess that somewhere between 10 and 20% of RfA's have at least one person making this type of post.---Balloonman NO! I'm Spartacus! 23:57, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Carcharoth: This is very troubling. Your previous statement was that "[u]ser talk pages should be for messages to the person whose page it is, or for short discussions that don't really fit anywhere else", and not for "discussions best held elsewhere". And now you have said: "Editors restricted to their own talk pages should be addressing the reasons they were blocked." Which is to say that restricted editors are not allowed to say anything, any where, except to address the block. Which sure sounds like: if sent your room, you are not allowed to come out, nor allowed to do anything in your room, until you apologize. Now if that sounds like ridicule, well, is it perhaps because you have a ridiculous position? - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:29, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- You missed out the option to just do nothing until the block expires. But really, imagine if every blocked user ignored the reasons for their block and continued to participate 'at a distance' in the dispute that got them blocked. I think the root of the problem is this concept that anything is allowed on user talk pages. That userspace (and its talk page) is a place where almost anything is allowed. That turns user talk space from a communication space into something much more akin to a quasi-public/private debating chamber, dragging discussions away from the truly public spaces into the more 'private' spaces, and what I'm saying is that this degrades the quality (or rather, the participation level) of discussions held in the places where it should matter - on article talk pages and projectspace talk pages. Just take a step back for a moment from the 'civil liberties' concept of user talk pages, and consider why Wikipedia has namespaces at all. The reason is to aid in organising the editing of the encyclopedia, and to funnel discussion to the correct places. When people decide they can discuss anything anywhere they want (including user talk space), that system starts to break down. It is not a question of an authoritarian attitude 'forbidding' things, but a plea for people to think about where they are posting and to use the right location, and to consider that if access to a particular place has been blocked, that the user talk page is not a substitute for that location. Anyway, this is getting far off-topic and is no longer a matter for this noticeboard. I'll possibly raise the issue (probably at WT:TALK and WT:BLOCK) at a later date. What would really help to bring this discussion to a close would be for a bureaucrat to step in and shut it down, as I've accepted, given the silence, that the bureaucrats as a group are unlikely to respond here (for reasons I'm not entirely clear on, as discussions of allegations of RFA canvassing would seem central to their remit, but I won't push the matter further). Carcharoth (talk) 08:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how many other ways you need to be given the hint, Carcharoth. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:14, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- You missed out the option to just do nothing until the block expires. But really, imagine if every blocked user ignored the reasons for their block and continued to participate 'at a distance' in the dispute that got them blocked. I think the root of the problem is this concept that anything is allowed on user talk pages. That userspace (and its talk page) is a place where almost anything is allowed. That turns user talk space from a communication space into something much more akin to a quasi-public/private debating chamber, dragging discussions away from the truly public spaces into the more 'private' spaces, and what I'm saying is that this degrades the quality (or rather, the participation level) of discussions held in the places where it should matter - on article talk pages and projectspace talk pages. Just take a step back for a moment from the 'civil liberties' concept of user talk pages, and consider why Wikipedia has namespaces at all. The reason is to aid in organising the editing of the encyclopedia, and to funnel discussion to the correct places. When people decide they can discuss anything anywhere they want (including user talk space), that system starts to break down. It is not a question of an authoritarian attitude 'forbidding' things, but a plea for people to think about where they are posting and to use the right location, and to consider that if access to a particular place has been blocked, that the user talk page is not a substitute for that location. Anyway, this is getting far off-topic and is no longer a matter for this noticeboard. I'll possibly raise the issue (probably at WT:TALK and WT:BLOCK) at a later date. What would really help to bring this discussion to a close would be for a bureaucrat to step in and shut it down, as I've accepted, given the silence, that the bureaucrats as a group are unlikely to respond here (for reasons I'm not entirely clear on, as discussions of allegations of RFA canvassing would seem central to their remit, but I won't push the matter further). Carcharoth (talk) 08:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- Carcharoth: This is very troubling. Your previous statement was that "[u]ser talk pages should be for messages to the person whose page it is, or for short discussions that don't really fit anywhere else", and not for "discussions best held elsewhere". And now you have said: "Editors restricted to their own talk pages should be addressing the reasons they were blocked." Which is to say that restricted editors are not allowed to say anything, any where, except to address the block. Which sure sounds like: if sent your room, you are not allowed to come out, nor allowed to do anything in your room, until you apologize. Now if that sounds like ridicule, well, is it perhaps because you have a ridiculous position? - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:29, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Tip of the iceberg
A quick dip through some talk pages shows that this problem is much worse than any of us feared. For example User:Antandrus, who will be familiar to many of you as a highly disruptive editor, uses his talk page to tell Ling.Nut If people can't see how someone like you would be a benefit to the project with admin tools, I just shake my head in bafflement.[1] And User:SandyGeorgia, another notorious troublemaker, regularly posts her views on which Arbcom candidates deserve support. Carcharoth is right; editors must stop expressing their sentiments on these and other policy matters anywhere but on the page expressly intended for this purpose. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 12:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Similarly, a little-publicised tactic (cf. WP:BEANS) is for much-watched editors to ostensibly support one candidate in the certain knowledge that those that hate them - and sadly there will always be some - will vote in the exact opposite direction. WP:Reverse canvassing represents a real danger to the Wikimodel and must be sought out and stamped upon.
But perhaps the most iniquitious example of all is when the much-watched editor says nothing at all. Naturally, as his watchers hang on his every word, they can divine his intentions and vote in droves in precisely the direction he wants. It's high time the applicable guideline "Canvassing by stealth" was promoted to policy so Action Can Be Taken. Roger talk 13:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Similarly, a little-publicised tactic (cf. WP:BEANS) is for much-watched editors to ostensibly support one candidate in the certain knowledge that those that hate them - and sadly there will always be some - will vote in the exact opposite direction. WP:Reverse canvassing represents a real danger to the Wikimodel and must be sought out and stamped upon.
- I'd be really happy if people stopped publishing their ArbCom "guides". I think it is rude to talk about somebody behind their back. RFA comments belong on the RFA page. ArbCom comments belong on the designated question, answer and comment pages. Posting to one's own talk page (or user space) in order to stimulate one's friends to vote a certain way is not in accordance with the spirit of Wikipedia. Jehochman Talk 13:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- I've never been wild about them either, especially as the candidates are supposed to just grin and bear it when people trot out inaccuracies or misconceptions. Roger talk 13:47, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Mere inaccuracies or misconceptions would be an improvement. Some of the guides are used to settle scores or grind axes by people hung up on particular conflicts or issues. Jehochman Talk 13:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, there is that too. Roger talk 13:53, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- As I understand it Arbcom election guides are part of the process e.g. User:Juliancolton/Arb and actually included in the template Template:ACE 2009 guides, we are encouraged to go along and see what our favourite user of the moment thinks about the candidates. Whether you think it is rude or not WMC posting his own opinion on his own talkpage is not something to be dealt with here in isolation and would need a major overhaul of policy. I am not against such an overhaul as I disliked the guides intensely. Maybe the best solution is to continue to allow this on users own pages but as soon as these user opinions become offically linked to that is where the problem really lies. Polargeo 2 (talk) 14:04, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, there is that too. Roger talk 13:53, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Mere inaccuracies or misconceptions would be an improvement. Some of the guides are used to settle scores or grind axes by people hung up on particular conflicts or issues. Jehochman Talk 13:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- I've never been wild about them either, especially as the candidates are supposed to just grin and bear it when people trot out inaccuracies or misconceptions. Roger talk 13:47, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- I've heard occasional rumors that inaccuracies and misconceptions can occur in the real world too (tho I've never seen such Wiki-specific things as score settling or axe grinding occurring off wiki, of course). Like pretty much everything else, this is obviously an Important ProblemTM that new, more restrictive rules and more activist administrating will fix. I suggest we follow the lead of our betters in the real world, and create free speech zones to make sure these troublemakers expressing their opinions can't actually affect any change. Seeing how perfectly such an attitude has worked in the real world has restored my faith in our ability to create a Utopia here through the strict enforcement of more rules. Energizing the usually-reluctant admin corps to stick their noses in more places, and giving them the tools needed to warn, lecture, and block people for expressing their opinions anywhere but the "designated page for their opinion" is an excellent idea, and I don't see any possibility of it being misused as another tool to attack opponents and people whose opinions differ from our own. RFA is currently inhabited by a cross section of people that perfectly mirrors the editing community at large, and any comments by outsiders that could affect what goes on in that perfectly-run process is so obviously a bad idea that I won't waste all our time explaining why that is. If new people show up at RFA, people who don't usually participate, they might bring rudeness and foolishness to a currently polite and wise process.
- Of course, technically I don't think WP:BN is the designated place to plot out the exact methods we're going to use to stifle discussion we don't approve of, so you're all blocked indefinitely until you learn to be good little Borg-lettes and do what you're told, where you're told to do it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:28, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Well said Polargeo 2 (talk) 14:32, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, but did either of you fill in their X-15-666.1984s? I certainly don't remember authorizing these statements. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:43, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Have you not checked your sekret mail? Please feel free to remove my comment if there any any errors on the form. Polargeo 2 (talk) 15:56, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, but did either of you fill in their X-15-666.1984s? I certainly don't remember authorizing these statements. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:43, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- Well said Polargeo 2 (talk) 14:32, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
- JEH: I'm sorry that you'd be 'be really happy if people stopped publishing their ArbCom "guides". '... but I don't plan to stop. Mine has a talk page and I've engaged with candidates there, to mutual benefit, more than once, and I get a lot of positive feedback about it. The suggestion that the questions are somehow a replacement for guides really misses the mark, I'm afraid. We are apparently to be restricted to one question each, and the process for getting more generic ones into the overall list seems to have stalled. I will be presenting candidates with my entire list, as before, and they can choose to answer or not, as they like, which will form part of my evaluation process. I just may not be doing it in the "official place" since that apparently is verboten. ++Lar: t/c 14:48, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- I think the issue is that your guide gets put up on the template and from my feel of wikipedia, as a much less experienced editor than you, I really think people wanting to get on in the world of wikipedia look at what you say. Therefore I feel that having a link to your "guide" on the election pages is really very inappropriate. I am not saying you posting your opinions is inappropriate, just the link to them. However, this is not the place to discuss this and is going off topic. Has this been discussed in detail elsewhere and if so where so we can move the discussion to the appropriate place. Polargeo 2 (talk) 14:56, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- JEH: I'm sorry that you'd be 'be really happy if people stopped publishing their ArbCom "guides". '... but I don't plan to stop. Mine has a talk page and I've engaged with candidates there, to mutual benefit, more than once, and I get a lot of positive feedback about it. The suggestion that the questions are somehow a replacement for guides really misses the mark, I'm afraid. We are apparently to be restricted to one question each, and the process for getting more generic ones into the overall list seems to have stalled. I will be presenting candidates with my entire list, as before, and they can choose to answer or not, as they like, which will form part of my evaluation process. I just may not be doing it in the "official place" since that apparently is verboten. ++Lar: t/c 14:48, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Let's start writing up Wikipedia:McCarthyism before it is too late. Count Iblis (talk) 15:47, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree with those who would like to put a stop to these things, though I do not think it is possible. Too often, people use them to grind personal axes, under the cover of highly dubious interpretations of policy which they say that the candidate's in violation of.--23:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wehwalt (talk • contribs)
- WP:McCarthyism is lacking in i18n. I propose WP:17th Congress of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) ("because of 1,996 party members present, 1,108 were arrested, and about two thirds of those executed within three years"). Maybe we can completely wipe out all those old-wikipedians who got the encyclopedia to this stage. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Note: There is a discussion about the ArbCom election voter guides discussed above here. Please comment there. Skomorokh 16:40, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
"Unresolved" note
"[The] talk page is watched by many. This makes it unclear whether it would be considered a 'limited posting' or a 'mass posting'." - do you mean to imply that it is now the responsibility of a user to check how many people watch a given page before posting on it? This is not remotely reasonable - I do not even know how to do this, although I'm fairly certain I can find out by looking at all the small print around a page. Moreover, I'm fairly certain that there is no reasonable way to find out how many people watched a page at a given time. The number of page watcher is ephemeral and non-obvious. The decision if something is a mass posting or not can reasonably only been determined by how often something is posted, and in particular in how many different venues it is posted, not on how many people may or may not become aware of it. I do not check all my watchlisted pages, much less all the individual edits to them. Does anybody? There is no slippery slope here, and there is no space for compromise on this particular issue. Posting something only once in one place is no mass posting. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- I quite agree. There may be many issues with a particular posting to a single solitary place, but "mass posting" is not among them. ++Lar: t/c 14:23, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- Agree, the unresolved comment by xeno is off the mark. Polargeo (talk) 14:29, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
- No, I mean to imply the canvassing guideline might need to be clarified. Even if we set aside the issue of mass vs. limited, it is still a biased posting made with the intent to inform [Wikipedians] about a community discussion that trends towards the inappropriate side of the canvass guideline. Posting such as this should be discouraged; if users want to opine on an RFA they should do so on the RFA, and if they are blocked they should seek unblocking or accept that they are disenfranchised. –xenotalk 15:25, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Peer review of closure
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
As I voted in this RfA, and closed it on applicant's request, am requesting a peer review of closure of this RfA. Thanks. Wifione ....... Leave a message 10:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- You can close an RfA as unsuccessful per the applicant's request even if you voted. There is no CoI there. PeterSymonds (talk) 11:01, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. Sincerely. Wifione ....... Leave a message 11:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)