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::::I was just noting that you wrote a clear, succinct description there, whereas this article has balloon up. On October 21, the article was 86,595 bytes and the explanation was not as clear to me as your simple summary in the other article. —[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''Mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 23:53, 26 October 2008 (UTC) |
::::I was just noting that you wrote a clear, succinct description there, whereas this article has balloon up. On October 21, the article was 86,595 bytes and the explanation was not as clear to me as your simple summary in the other article. —[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''Mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 23:53, 26 October 2008 (UTC) |
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'''Comments from Mattisse''' |
'''Comments from Mattisse''' |
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* Your comments above are over my head. I am just becoming more confused about what the article is about. I do not know about "EMDR etc etc etc." This discussion is only confusing me more, as my knowledge base is mainstream and I do not know what should go in this article about a pseudoscience. Casliber said, "I think Matisse is right to be extremely wary of how mainstream science material can and may be interpreted in this article." Maybe you could get some input from other editors. Ask Casliber if he would provide some more input as he has expressed discomfort about some issues. Has this article been to peer review? The article |
* Your comments above are over my head. I am just becoming more confused about what the article is about. I do not know about "EMDR etc etc etc." This discussion is only confusing me more, as my knowledge base is mainstream and I do not know what should go in this article about a pseudoscience. Casliber said, "I think Matisse is right to be extremely wary of how mainstream science material can and may be interpreted in this article." Maybe you could get some input from other editors. Ask Casliber if he would provide some more input as he has expressed discomfort about some issues. Has this article been to peer review? The article definitely needs fresh eyes, input from others who are knowledgeable about mainstream medical issues and how they should be presented in an article about pseudoscience but who are not so involved in the topic of this article. —[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''Mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 19:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC) |
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::Casliber is still involved.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Casliber#Attachment_therapy][[User:Fainites|Fainites]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Fainites|barley]]</small></sup> 13:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC) |
::Casliber is still involved.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Casliber#Attachment_therapy][[User:Fainites|Fainites]] <sup><small>[[User_talk:Fainites|barley]]</small></sup> 13:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC) |
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'''Comment''' Mattisse, do you still have things that you would like to see Fainites working on? If you don't, this review can probably be closed as a keep, but I didn't want to do this without making sure you were satisfied. I think that Fainites has done a good job in responding to your comments, and the changes have been beneficial to the article. Let me know your thoughts. [[User:Dana boomer|Dana boomer]] ([[User talk:Dana boomer|talk]]) 14:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC) |
'''Comment''' Mattisse, do you still have things that you would like to see Fainites working on? If you don't, this review can probably be closed as a keep, but I didn't want to do this without making sure you were satisfied. I think that Fainites has done a good job in responding to your comments, and the changes have been beneficial to the article. Let me know your thoughts. [[User:Dana boomer|Dana boomer]] ([[User talk:Dana boomer|talk]]) 14:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC) |
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'''Comment''' - I stand by my comments above. My specific complaints: |
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:*This article needs vetting by editors knowledgeable in the field. I recommend a peer review at the very least. |
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:*This is an extremely long article, even by FAC standards (72 kB of readable prose when FAC informal cutoff is 50 kB), that is about a pseudoscience. That is almost twice as long as the article on [[Attachment theory]] (43 kB of readable prose). |
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:*Is it appropriate to have such an extensive article on a pseudoscience, when all the material that is not on the pseudoscience itself is repeated in the many articles on attachment, attachment theory etc. on Wikipedia? |
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:*This is a pseudoscience that had been discredited - my impression is that it is not widely used now anyway. What are the statistics as to its current use in 2008? How recent was the last "dead child"? |
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:*I think the entire article should be whittled down to a focused description on the pseudoscience itself. For example, since it is a pseudoscience, is an extensive treatment of its "Historical roots" necessary, when in the end we are talking about a pseudoscience? The length and depth and repetition in the article are unnecessary and inappropriate, in my opinion. |
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:*The article should start out by explaining that this therapy is considered a [[pseudoscience]] and explain why. |
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:*I would really like to hear the opinions of more editors. I am uncomfortable that such a weighty article's content is being determined by two editors, the article's sole editor (with over 900 edits) and one GA reviewer who admits not being expert in the field. —[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''Mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 15:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC) |
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—[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''Mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 15:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:47, 5 November 2008
- Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch •
- Result pending
I believe this article fails to meet 3b of GA criteria. Its subject, Attachment therapy is a pseudoscience. However, the article contains large sections that either are about mainstream medically accepted material, diagnoses, etc., or sections that are focused on the pseudoscience. There are also sections that combine mainstream medical information with the pseudoscience.
The structure of the article is confusing and also mixes science and pseudoscience.
Many of the references are unreliable. I have listed these under Talk:Attachment_therapy#Serious_problems_with_article or are not accessible, so it is difficult at times to disentangle whether real science or pseudoscience is being referenced.
The many wikilinks in the article are mostly to mainstream psychology/psychiatry information, although some are to "alternative therapies".
- Note: There have been four GA reviews: See:
- Failed "good article" nomination failed by Sandstein October 9, 2007
- GA fail failed by Nikki311 April 9, 2008
- GA Review failed by Jclemens September 1, 2008
- Second Review passed by Dana boomer (which should be labeled "Fourth Review" for clarity) October 22, 2008.
- Also, Michael Devore, a very good copy editor, has given considerable help. See: Article question(s) September 3-6, More questions and issues September 13
A single editor has worked on the article, putting in over 900 edits.[1]. I do not believe this editor has the perspective to sort out the article alone.
I believe this needs a group effort to bring it to GA status. —Mattisse (Talk) 03:52, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Outline of article sections and why they are confusing
In the section on Treatment characteristics of attachment therapy (the pseudoscience), there is a section on Traditional attachment theory based methods.
Under the section Theoretical basis (presumably of Attachment therapy), there is a section on Attachment theory with no indication if this applies to Attachment therapy or not (presumably not, as it is not considered pseudoscience) and a section on Theoretical principles of attachment therapy which is about the pseudoscience.
The sections Historical roots and Range of attachment therapies both seem to be about Attachment therapy.
The section Diagnosis and attachment disorder has as mainstream wikilinks under the heading Attachment disorder and Reactive attachment disorder which is a legitimate medical diagnosis and not pseudoscience. The section talks about "current official classifications of RAD under DSM-IV-TR and ICD-10 are largely based on this understanding of the nature of attachment." These link and the body of this section refers to mainstrean diagnostic categories used by mental health professions and has nothing to do with pseudoscience. It refers to attachment styles (piped) appears to be mainstream looking at the references.
Under this section (Diagnosis and attachment disorder) are two sub sections: The first is Diagnosis lists and questionnaires contains some mainstream diagnostic tools, and some instruments whose status is unclear and has wikilinks to mainstream disorders and the second is Patient recruitment which appears to apply only to the controversial pseudoscience.
A section on Prevalence - appears to be about mainstream medical science
A section on Evidence basis and controversial therapies is apparently on the pseudoscience
There is a section on Mainstream therapies with mainstream information and links.
The last section is Cases - notorious cases.
—Mattisse (Talk) 03:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Just Wait I was the 2nd opinion GA reviewer on this article, after it had had a 2nd opinion tag on it on the GAN page for over a month, with no one (including Mattisse) offering a second opinion and taking the review through to conclusion. I thoroughly read through the article, copyediting as I went, and made several suggestions on the talk page. When these had been completed to my satisfaction, I passed the article to GA status. Immediately after this passing, Mattisse posted a long list of issues (similar to the list above), as well as a message on my talk page notifying me that he was thinking about initiating a GAR. I read his comments, compared them to the article, and found that I agreed with several of them. I posted a message to this effect on the talk page, as well as a message asking the main editor (Fainite) to respond ASAP. Fainite responded within a day, asking for a little more time as they were busy with RL, and responding positively to our comments. I figured that this time would be given, as Fainite appeared willing to make the changes we've asked for, or at least discuss them, but then I see that Mattisse has initiated a community GAR.
My view on the article is that it is well written and well referenced, and that it provides a comprehensive overview of the subject, with good distinctions between the pseudoscience of attachment therapy and the mainstream therapies that are more commonly (and properly) used. I agree with Mattisse that there is perhaps a little extra weight in the article on mainstream therapies that could be removed, but I do not see the article in its current form as harmful to anyone. IMO, it makes a clear distinction between pseudoscience and mainstream therapies, and, with a little bit of work by Fainite, which that editor seems willing to do, the extra weight can easily be cut out. I see nothing about this article that is ethically wrong, as Mattisse has claimed, and I ask that other editors give Fainite a chance to get a break from RL to work on the article (this weekend was what we were told). Dana boomer (talk) 12:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. It seems that all are agreed that their are genuine GA concerns with the article. It makes sense to me to see if Fainite can address them by this weekend, but if Matisse's view is borne out and further work and the involvement of other editors is needed, then it may be better to delist with a view to future renomination. Geometry guy 19:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- That would be fine with me. I am simply asking to give Fainite the time that they asked for, due to RL busy-ness, rather than summarily delisting the article. Mattisse seems to be taking a fast-track approach on this article, which IMO may lead to un-necessarily hurt feelings and an un-necessarily delisted article. It won't hurt anything to give Fainite a few days to work on the article, so there's no need to rush things along. Dana boomer (talk) 20:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- I will see you later in the weekend. In the meantime here is a copy of the review page (the link seems to have gone) which contains the matters referred to above if anyone is interested. And perhaps given this [2] and this [3] its time for a little WP:AGF around here. Fainites barley 20:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- Talk:Attachment therapy/GA1 (It cannot be transluded here. Geometry guy 22:09, 23 October 2008 (UTC))
Hi guys. Thanks for waiting.
- Dealing with the main point - what I was attempting to do was make clear the distinction between attachment therapy (AT) theoretical base, diagnosis and practices and those within the mainstream. I did this because attachment therapists claim that AT is based on attachment theory and claim that they are treating "reactive attachment disorder" as well as "attachment disorder". Often what are in fact attachment styles are described as attachment disorders. Therefore it seemed to be appropriate, for the sake of clarity, to set out the article so it says effectively attachment theory says this whereas AT says this. The DSM/ICD definition of RAD is this whereas ATers use "symptoms lists" which say this. AT cklaims to be able to diagnose this whereas mainstream says you can't. And so on. The first point is - is this either not an appropriate way of approaching the material, or it is appropriate but just hasn't been done well enough. If the answer is the former then I can remove the paragraphs that set out the brief description of attachment theory, the classification of RAD from DSM and ICD and mainstream diagnosis tools. If it is the latter then I can rearrange or reduce the material as suggested by Dana. Probably the severe reduction approach is the best - given that Dana has said s/he did not find the comparisons between mainstream and pseudoscience confusing.
- The Taskforce Report itself, which is a significant source in this article, takes the approach of setting what the mainstream position is on attachment theory, classification, diagnosis and treatment. Then it sets out what the AT position is and how it differs. I have not seen any criticism of this report as being misleading as a consequence of this.
- If people agree I would propose to reduce of the sections describing mainstream classifications, diagnosis and treatment but I think a brief description of attachment theory ought to remain. Otherwise the significance of the fact that its claimed to be based on attachment theory but isn't is lost.
- If it is being suggested that because this article is about a pseudoscience then there should be no meantion of mainstream science at all then I don't agree with this. Where a pseudoscience claims quite specifically to be "evidence-based", based on a mainstream theory and to be within the mainstream when it is not, it is inevitable that there has to be some discussion of the distinctions between the two.Fainites barley 13:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- If people agree I would propose to reduce of the sections describing mainstream classifications, diagnosis and treatment but I think a brief description of attachment theory ought to remain. Otherwise the significance of the fact that its claimed to be based on attachment theory but isn't is lost.
- The Taskforce Report itself, which is a significant source in this article, takes the approach of setting what the mainstream position is on attachment theory, classification, diagnosis and treatment. Then it sets out what the AT position is and how it differs. I have not seen any criticism of this report as being misleading as a consequence of this.
- I don't understand Matisses point on the prevalence section at all. It gives what mainstream sources I could find about the prevalence of AT and lists major organisations that have taken a position against all or part of AT. Is it being suggested this is not relevent? Fainites barley 13:57, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- When you focus on the subject of the article, you do not have to worry about mainstream prevalence of the disorder, unless you want to change the article title to "Comparison between mainstream and pseudo scientific treatment of attachments disorders in children". The article is not about the disorder; it is about a pseudo scientific treatment. Prevalence of a disorder is really not a main issue in an article on a treatment for a disorder that is a pseudoscience, unless you mean prevalence or frequency of the use of this pseudo scientific treatment. If you want to work in a sentence some where about real world prevalence of the disorder, you can do that. But I don't see the point of the Prevalence section when the article is not about the disorder. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- The prevalence section is not about prevalence of the disorder. It is about prevalence of attachment therapy. I'll change the title to make it easier to understand.Fainites barley 16:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I recommend that you start with the lead sentence that clearly focuses on the subject of the article. Current first sentence: "Attachment therapy is the most commonly used term for a controversial category of alternative child mental health interventions intended to treat attachment disorders." - Attachment therapy is not an "alternative child mental health intervention."
- Maybe something like: "Attachment therapy is the common term for a pseudo scientific treatment of attachment disorders in children. It is considered pseudoscience because it is not based on medical evidence that it is effective. Attachments disorders are common in children. In the 1970s attachment therapy became popular and gained a cult following (or whatever you want to say) but has since been discredited by blah and blah. Currently the most effective treatments for these disorders in children are considered to be blah. - or something along these lines.
- Perhaps if you write a clear lead, then the rest of the article will follow. Or you could start with the sections of the article that pertain to attachment therapy and remove the rest. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- a)It is considered a pseudoscience for a variety of reasons, not just because its not evidence based. The line about pseudoscience currently carefully follows the source. I have put a summary of the main criticisms in the lead. Are you suggesting they be removed?
- b)There is no "official" diagnosis of "attachment disorder". This is a diagnosis used by attachment therapists. Within mainstream it is sometimes used as a shorthand for reactive attachment disorder and sometimes people mix it up with attachment syles. I have a section in the article briefly describing the difference between RAD, attachment disorder and styles. I believe it is one of the sections you want removed.
- c)Attachment disorders are not common in children. RAD is comparatively rare. It is attachment therapists that claim "attachment disorder" is common and indeed that it affects nearly all if not all adopted or fostered children - their primary market. It is very important that this article does not repeat attachment therapy propaganda.
- d) I had a section about mainstream therapies in the article. You complained about it. I took it out.
- e) Whilst I would agree that its following can certainly seem "cultlike" ("Awesome Moms"), I have as yet found no notable source that describes it as such.
- f)I'm not fussed about the word "alternative" one way or the other. It simply means outside conventional medicine. (Though I would agree that it never seems quite fair to mix up mild unharmful airy fairy therapies with aggressively marketed pseudosciences like this one). I have one source (albeit a pretty notable one) which uses the word pseudoscience. The others say things like unvalidated, controversial, potentially dangerous, potentially abusive. There was some discussion about the use of the word "controversial" on the basis that pretty much all the mainstream commentary on this subject points one way so the "controversy" is over so to speak. The choices really are "pseudoscientific" or "unvalidated" of people don't like alternative.
- g)On the issue of the use of the words "Attachment therapy" - the lead is quite carefully worded because AT is largely a USA thing therefore a UK person hearing the term might just think it meant any therapy aiming to address attachment issues. Therefore I have endeavoured to make it clear what is being described - ie the phenomenon for which the most common tern is "Attachment therapy".Fainites barley 16:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've removed the section on mainstream therapies. The sentence that said all mainstream interventions are based on increasing carer sensitivity I added to the the brief description of attachment theory methods - now retitled "contrasting....". I have also removed the brief description of attachment theory. I am still puzzling over the second two paragraphs in diagnosis as it is a feature of AT to claim reliance on DSM and to mix insecure attachment styles with disorders and the distinction needs to be made clear. However - if generally other editors think it is better removed I can do that. I have also found the new site for the one dead link to Hughes old site. Unfortunately he's changed his content! I have an alternative source for the point though. Fainites barley 17:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
(multiple edit conflicts)
- Comments Whatever. All I am saying is this article is on Attachment therapy. Focus on that and not the disorders that it supposedly treats. You can check the Alternative medicine article and the pseudoscience article and see which it fits. However, your last section Cases is rather ominous. Someone put this article in the Category:Pseudoscience. If it is alternative medicine, then Category:Alternative medicine would be appropriate. There is also Category:Fringe science.
- Also you have a number of references that are questionable that I list on the talk page. What makes these reliable sources? (Some of these you can probably justify but the copyvio links must go. And the dead link)
- http://www.caica.org/Krystal_Tibbetts_attachment_therapy_death.htm?
- Quote from website:"DISCLAIMER, WARNINGS, AND NOTICE TO READERS: This website does not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information, content collectively, the "Materials") contained on, distributed through, or linked, downloaded or accessed from any of the services contained on this website (the "Service"). None of the contributors, sponsors, administrators or anyone else connected with this website in any way whatsoever can be responsible for the appearance of any inaccurate or libelous information or for your use of the information contained in these web pages. All information provided using this website is only intended to be general summary information to the public.
- FAIR USE NOTICE: These pages may contain copyrighted (© ) material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Such material is made available to advance understanding of ecological, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, moral, ethical, and social justice issues, etc. It is believed that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior general interest in receiving similar information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner."
- Same disclaimer as above
- http://www.childrenintherapy.org/victims/marr.html
- http://www.childrenintherapy.org/victims/gravelle.html
- http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/at.html - written by a "Ph.D. student from Texas who earned a Master of Arts in Counselor Education from Sam Houston State University in 1995. She also holds a Master of Divinity from Brite Divinity School at Texas Christian University."
- http://web.archive.org/web/20030820043048/www.theadoptionguide.com/complaints/Polreis.html
- http://www.stolaf.edu/people/leming/soc260fam/news/April_18.html#A1817.html - this is a copyvio from the Boston Globe but you :have incorrectly attributed it to the Boston Globe in the references. The site has the disclaimer quoted above.
- http://www.caica.org/Krystal_Tibbetts_attachment_therapy_death.htm - copyvio of The Salt Lake Tribune article. The site has the disclaimer quoted above.
- http://www.childrenintherapy.org/victims/ciambrone.html
- http://www.childrenintherapy.org/victims/swenson.html
- http://www.center4familydevelop.com/http://www.childrenintherapy.org/proponents/hughes.html
- http://danielahughes.homestead.com/Model.html - this link is dead
- http://www.attach.org/position.htm
- http://www.childrenintherapy.org/proponents/cline.html
- http://www.skepticreport.com/pseudoscience/attachmenttherapy.htm
- http://www.childrenintherapy.org/essays/index.html
- http://www.childrenintherapy.org/essays/abuses.html—Mattisse (Talk) 17:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Comment Overlinking. Please see MOS:Overlinking and underlinking which states that any one term is to be linked once per article as a general rule. You have Attachment theory linked twice in the lead alone.
- You say in the lead: "This form of therapy, including diagnosis and accompanying parenting techniques, is scientifically unvalidated and is not considered to be part of mainstream psychology or, despite its name, to be based on attachment theory, with which it is considered incompatible." Therefore, that should be the end of it, except for the place in the article body where you explain this. No more wikilinking to attachment theory; you have already said it does not apply and also per MOS:Overlinking and underlinking. It is misleading to continually wikilink to mainstream articles. This article is about a pseudoscience, or whatever you have decided it is. The same with repeated wikilinking to other mainstream articles like Reactive attachment disorder. This includes the See also. If it is wikilinked in the article, you have to be able to justify putting it in See also. FAC, for example, do not normally allow any see alsos.—Mattisse (Talk) 18:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- The attachment therapy versions of what they say attachment theory is and attachment disorder is is part of attachment therapy. And - its not up to me to decide whether its a pseudoscience or not. This has to be sourced - and it is. I suspect that there are many who would argue in any event that "alternative" and "pseudoscience" are not mutually exclusive.Fainites barley 19:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- a)In relation to the links regarding the cases - these cases are largely reported in newspapers - often with a degree of reasonably in depth investigative reporting, and some have judgments/appeals. Advocates for Children in Therapy use news reopoirts and in some cases personal attendance to compile their individual case reports. Similarly CAICA. These are the best sources there are. Apart from Candace Newmaker on whom there is a book, these cases are not reported into peer reviewed journals or the like although they are referred to in peer reviewed sources - for example the one that cites "at least 6 deaths" and the Taskforce report.
- b)I understand Quackwatch is frequently cited in articles on pseudosciences as is skepticreport.
- c)The chair or president of the professional board of advisors of ACT is a professor of psychology (child development I believe) and published in peer reviewed journals on the subject of attachment therapy. Fainites barley 19:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Copyvios removed. Fainites barley 21:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Fainites, any website, such as CAICA, that has the above quoted disclaimer (DISCLAIMER, WARNINGS, AND NOTICE TO READERS) that is it not responsible for the material on the website and that some of the website material may be in violation of copyright law (FAIR USE NOTICE: These pages may contain copyrighted (© ) material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner.) is not considered a reliable source by wikipedia. Additionally, it puts Wikipedia at risk for violation of copyright law. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- Copyvios removed. Fainites barley 21:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've already removed the CAICA ones. Fainites barley 22:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Comments from Casliber
One of the issues I feel most strongly about is misinformation on articles. I have not studied the former version, only the one at time of writing. I haven't looked at the sourcing. I think Matisse is right to be extremely wary of how mainstream science material can and may be interpreted in this article. However, this is an agonisingly difficult path - leaving enough material of mainstream practice and theory to provide context, yet not mislead the reader into validating what is clearly a fringe/pseudoscience practice:
- e.g paragraphs 3 and 4 of Diagnosis and attachment disorder provide some context (which is a good thing (?) ), however they focus on the unclear nature of the DSM diagnoses and their relation (or lack thereof) to styles of attachment theory. Now part of me reading this (though happy to get some context) could construe this as a direct criticism of mainstream therapy and hence validation of this therapy by its mere presence. This is my impression anyway. I can also see why it is there so this is why it is so difficult.
- I find this a really tricky one myself. It would be easy to just remove those two paragraphs - but then there's no context. Its complicated by the fact that when RAD came out in DSM, attachment therapists seized on it. They also do things like quote papers on attachment styles in support of their diagnosis of "attachment disorder". Suppose I take those two paragraphs out and then look at it afresh. On the article - it hasn't really changed much. Just some bits removed. I took out a section titled "mainstream therapies" and a paragraph titled "attachment theory" which was intended to help explain the difference between attachment theory and the theoretical base of attachment therapy. Here's the pre-GAR version [4] Fainites barley 22:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've removed it all except this bit Within mainstream practice, disorders of attachment are classified in DSM-IV-TR and ICD-10 as reactive attachment disorder, (generally known as RAD) and Disinhibited attachment disorder. Both classifications warn against automatic diagnosis based on abuse or neglect. Many symptoms are present in a variety of other more common and more easily treatable disorders. There is as yet no other accepted definition of attachment disordersFainites barley 23:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- I find this a really tricky one myself. It would be easy to just remove those two paragraphs - but then there's no context. Its complicated by the fact that when RAD came out in DSM, attachment therapists seized on it. They also do things like quote papers on attachment styles in support of their diagnosis of "attachment disorder". Suppose I take those two paragraphs out and then look at it afresh. On the article - it hasn't really changed much. Just some bits removed. I took out a section titled "mainstream therapies" and a paragraph titled "attachment theory" which was intended to help explain the difference between attachment theory and the theoretical base of attachment therapy. Here's the pre-GAR version [4] Fainites barley 22:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- PS: The prose could do with a copyedit (I am trying to do some) as it is repetitive in places and could be pruned (see my edits).
- I feel uneasy about the heading Proponents claims to evidence base but have no alternative off the top of my head other than the succinct Claims, which I actually think works ok. I get worried that scanning thrgouh may give folks the wrong idea if their eyes settle on evidence base here.
- 'cept once you read it there is no evidence base of substance. Claims is OK. Or how about "Lack of Validation" ? Fainites barley 22:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- OK, let's make it Claims as it most accurately portrays content of section. I am not keen on Lack of Validation as it is a negative and doesn't encapsulate how these therapies claim to do XYZ. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:18, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- 'cept once you read it there is no evidence base of substance. Claims is OK. Or how about "Lack of Validation" ? Fainites barley 22:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- I share Casliber's concerns about the Diagnosis and attachment disorder section. It seems to be a general discussion of the problems in classifying attachment disorders in DSM-IV-TR and ICD-10 and their diagnostic categories (Disinhibited attachment disorder, Reactive attachment disorder) and is irrelevant to this article, as is the description of "four attachment styles ascertained and used within developmental attachment research." The section implies that "mainstream" research and practice is confusing and contradictory, thereby offering a rationale for nonstandard classification and treatment. I also agree that attachment therapy is clearly a fringe/pseudoscience practice. Why is "symptoms" is quotes? It seems to suggest that the word is being used incorrectly in the diagnostic manuals
- I agree that Claims is better than Proponents claims to evidence base. —Mattisse (Talk) 16:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Suggestions from Mattisse
- Write the Diagnosis and attachment disorder section in a manner similar to the section on Diagnosis lists and questionnaires. In this section you seem concentrate only on the methods used by Attachment therapy, without unnecessary links to mainstream articles. You do not introduce at this point Measuring attachment in children and do not compare/critique these mainstream measures. There are no links under the section heading to main articles.
- Linking to mainstream articles must be done only with care and thought as to the consequences. For example, in the section discussed by Casliber, Diagnosis and attachment disorder you have listed under the section heading as main articles: Attachment disorder and Reactive attachment disorder. You have wikilinked each of these a second time in the section itself. ICD-10 and DSM-IV-TR twice. Remember, this whole article is on a pseudoscience.
- You say Advocates for Children in Therapy "give a list of therapies they state are attachment therapies and a list of additional therapies used by attachment therapists which they consider to be unvalidate." Perhaps the rest of the article could expand on this.
- Oh blimey they list about 10 assorted therapies ranging from EDMR to NLP to Feldenkrais to neurofeedback. Everyone a minefield. How about linking to the list and then people can look them up if they want. They probably all have articles on Wiki but whether they're any good or not I don't know. Fainites barley 22:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- But isn't this what the article is about? I am confused now as to the subject of this article. —Mattisse (Talk) 17:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- This article is about attachment therapy - not EMDR etc etc etc. I'm confused now as to what you want in. Do you want the list of what ACT say are unvalidated therapies in the article? Or just a link? I don't see how this article can go into each unvalidated therapy in any depth. Also - we could list them all but would you want them linked to all the articles on these unvalidated therapies on Wiki? I can certainly do that. Fainites barley 17:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Hold on a second. Fainite - is the list you're talking about the "list of therapies they state are attachment therapies" or the "list of additional therapies used by attachment therapists which they consider to be unvalidate"? Mattisse - how about you? Also to Fainite, what's the difference between these two lists (the quick and dirty version, please)? If we're talking about the second list, I see no reason to list these therapies - just because some Acupressure practitioners also practice Breema doesn't mean that breema should be discussed in the acupressure article. However, if we're talking about the first list, anything that ACT calls "attachment therapies" should be listed in the article, since the article is called "Attachment therapy". Make sense? Dana boomer (talk) 20:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ah I'm with you now. Sorry. There is a a list of "attachment therapies". These are attachment therapy by another name. The practitioners keep on changing the name of what critics say is essentially the same therapy most commonly known as "attachment therapy". I have included in the article a list of the alternative names the Taskforce give but did not include the entire list ACT give. It ranges from the original Z-process of Zaslow, through rage-reduction and holding time right up to dyadic developmental psychotherapy. The other list is a list of adjnctive therapies used by some attachment therapists which ACT say are unvaklidated. I can easily include the list of "attachment therapies by another name" - except at the moment as of yesterday, for some reason my computer is not accessing the ACT links. I e-mailed one of ACT about this but they say its working. Is anybody else having a problem with ACT links? Fainites barley 21:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- No problem with the links and I've added the list in the notes. Fainites barley 20:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ah I'm with you now. Sorry. There is a a list of "attachment therapies". These are attachment therapy by another name. The practitioners keep on changing the name of what critics say is essentially the same therapy most commonly known as "attachment therapy". I have included in the article a list of the alternative names the Taskforce give but did not include the entire list ACT give. It ranges from the original Z-process of Zaslow, through rage-reduction and holding time right up to dyadic developmental psychotherapy. The other list is a list of adjnctive therapies used by some attachment therapists which ACT say are unvaklidated. I can easily include the list of "attachment therapies by another name" - except at the moment as of yesterday, for some reason my computer is not accessing the ACT links. I e-mailed one of ACT about this but they say its working. Is anybody else having a problem with ACT links? Fainites barley 21:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Hold on a second. Fainite - is the list you're talking about the "list of therapies they state are attachment therapies" or the "list of additional therapies used by attachment therapists which they consider to be unvalidate"? Mattisse - how about you? Also to Fainite, what's the difference between these two lists (the quick and dirty version, please)? If we're talking about the second list, I see no reason to list these therapies - just because some Acupressure practitioners also practice Breema doesn't mean that breema should be discussed in the acupressure article. However, if we're talking about the first list, anything that ACT calls "attachment therapies" should be listed in the article, since the article is called "Attachment therapy". Make sense? Dana boomer (talk) 20:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- This article is about attachment therapy - not EMDR etc etc etc. I'm confused now as to what you want in. Do you want the list of what ACT say are unvalidated therapies in the article? Or just a link? I don't see how this article can go into each unvalidated therapy in any depth. Also - we could list them all but would you want them linked to all the articles on these unvalidated therapies on Wiki? I can certainly do that. Fainites barley 17:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- But isn't this what the article is about? I am confused now as to the subject of this article. —Mattisse (Talk) 17:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Oh blimey they list about 10 assorted therapies ranging from EDMR to NLP to Feldenkrais to neurofeedback. Everyone a minefield. How about linking to the list and then people can look them up if they want. They probably all have articles on Wiki but whether they're any good or not I don't know. Fainites barley 22:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- You wrote the article Attachment-based therapy (children). The section in the article, Differentiation from attachment therapy seems a more succinct and accurate description.
- Everything in that paragraph is already in this article in various places I think. Where did you have in mind putting it? Fainites barley 22:42, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- I was just noting that you wrote a clear, succinct description there, whereas this article has balloon up. On October 21, the article was 86,595 bytes and the explanation was not as clear to me as your simple summary in the other article. —Mattisse (Talk) 23:53, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- Everything in that paragraph is already in this article in various places I think. Where did you have in mind putting it? Fainites barley 22:42, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Comments from Mattisse
- Your comments above are over my head. I am just becoming more confused about what the article is about. I do not know about "EMDR etc etc etc." This discussion is only confusing me more, as my knowledge base is mainstream and I do not know what should go in this article about a pseudoscience. Casliber said, "I think Matisse is right to be extremely wary of how mainstream science material can and may be interpreted in this article." Maybe you could get some input from other editors. Ask Casliber if he would provide some more input as he has expressed discomfort about some issues. Has this article been to peer review? The article definitely needs fresh eyes, input from others who are knowledgeable about mainstream medical issues and how they should be presented in an article about pseudoscience but who are not so involved in the topic of this article. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Casliber is still involved.[5]Fainites barley 13:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Having reduced the mainstream material considerably I have now put it in two sections - both headed in a way that make it clear these are contrasting mainstream methods/diagnosis/classifications. Hopefully this will enable the reader to be absolutely clear about the basic but essential differences between attachment therapy claims and beliefs and the mainstream. One is here [6] and the other is here [7]. I am also adding the ACT list of "attachment therapy by another name" as proposed above. As it is a very long list I've put it in the notes as a quote.Fainites barley 14:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I have removed the Quackwatch refs. I can remove the Skeptic Report article material. It provides a few added historical details about the roots of AT, and where and by who it was practised in the early days. I asked at the Sources noticeboard here. If the consensus is to remove I can do that easily. Fainites barley 21:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Comment Mattisse, do you still have things that you would like to see Fainites working on? If you don't, this review can probably be closed as a keep, but I didn't want to do this without making sure you were satisfied. I think that Fainites has done a good job in responding to your comments, and the changes have been beneficial to the article. Let me know your thoughts. Dana boomer (talk) 14:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment - I stand by my comments above. My specific complaints:
- This article needs vetting by editors knowledgeable in the field. I recommend a peer review at the very least.
- This is an extremely long article, even by FAC standards (72 kB of readable prose when FAC informal cutoff is 50 kB), that is about a pseudoscience. That is almost twice as long as the article on Attachment theory (43 kB of readable prose).
- Is it appropriate to have such an extensive article on a pseudoscience, when all the material that is not on the pseudoscience itself is repeated in the many articles on attachment, attachment theory etc. on Wikipedia?
- This is a pseudoscience that had been discredited - my impression is that it is not widely used now anyway. What are the statistics as to its current use in 2008? How recent was the last "dead child"?
- I think the entire article should be whittled down to a focused description on the pseudoscience itself. For example, since it is a pseudoscience, is an extensive treatment of its "Historical roots" necessary, when in the end we are talking about a pseudoscience? The length and depth and repetition in the article are unnecessary and inappropriate, in my opinion.
- The article should start out by explaining that this therapy is considered a pseudoscience and explain why.
- I would really like to hear the opinions of more editors. I am uncomfortable that such a weighty article's content is being determined by two editors, the article's sole editor (with over 900 edits) and one GA reviewer who admits not being expert in the field. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)