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::::This far AndyTheGrump's description is largely correct too. But it leaves out that I happened to know that Groceryheist is an accomplished postdoc researcher with several peer-reviewed academic publications about Wikipedia and other wikis (which VM should be aware of by now), and that he had already contributed a good review to "Recent research" before. Both are honestly more important in this regard that someone's edit count in 2022. (And for the avoidance of doubt, beyond what Groceryheist had said there on February 10, I didn't know anything about his stance about the paper, Poland, antisemitism or any other related topics when I made that invitation.) |
::::This far AndyTheGrump's description is largely correct too. But it leaves out that I happened to know that Groceryheist is an accomplished postdoc researcher with several peer-reviewed academic publications about Wikipedia and other wikis (which VM should be aware of by now), and that he had already contributed a good review to "Recent research" before. Both are honestly more important in this regard that someone's edit count in 2022. (And for the avoidance of doubt, beyond what Groceryheist had said there on February 10, I didn't know anything about his stance about the paper, Poland, antisemitism or any other related topics when I made that invitation.) |
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::::This response is yet another example of what another editor has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom&diff=prev&oldid=1143415475 called your (Volunteer Marek's) "distraction tactic"]: When being called out on one of your many distortions and unsubstantiated accusations, you simply ignore that and try to deflect by bringing up different claims. Others then again have to spend time debunking your new claims or pointing out that they lack evidence. In this case, in the comment you are replying to, I had debunked one of your distortions of fact in detail, and asked you to provide evidence for another accusation. You ignore both (perhaps because you have no good answer to either) and instead pivot to "just asking questions" about the reviewer choice and scolding him for not having highlighted some particular example. In case you haven't noticed, this review is a high-level overview. It also gives no room to any of G&K's many concrete examples of what they see as problematic in your and Piotrus' actions - even though that might have persuaded quite a few of those readers who haven't read the paper that there is a there there. Regards, [[User:HaeB|HaeB]] ([[User talk:HaeB|talk]]) 05:27, 12 March 2023 (UTC) |
::::This response is yet another example of what another editor has [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom&diff=prev&oldid=1143415475 called your (Volunteer Marek's) "distraction tactic"]: When being called out on one of your many distortions and unsubstantiated accusations, you simply ignore that and try to deflect by bringing up different claims. Others then again have to spend time debunking your new claims or pointing out that they lack evidence. In this case, in the comment you are replying to, I had debunked one of your distortions of fact in detail, and asked you to provide evidence for another accusation. You ignore both (perhaps because you have no good answer to either) and instead pivot to "just asking questions" about the reviewer choice and scolding him for not having highlighted some particular example. In case you haven't noticed, this review is a high-level overview. It also gives no room to any of G&K's many concrete examples of what they see as problematic in your and Piotrus' actions - even though that might have persuaded quite a few of those readers who haven't read the paper that there is a there there. Regards, [[User:HaeB|HaeB]] ([[User talk:HaeB|talk]]) 05:27, 12 March 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::The editor you are citing about these "distraction tactics" is involved up to their ears in this whole mess. It's like quoting Eric Trump to support Donald. I have not made "many distortions and unsubstantiated accusations" and since you're now saying this in your own voice, you really need to watch [[WP:ASPERSIONS]] and personal attacks, especially since you appear to love to lecture others about this. You have not "debunked" anything, you just started Wikilawyering about whether the words "added" and "introduced" meant the same thing or something like that (it was so inane and pointless that I'm probably not even remembering it correctly). And "distraction tactics"? HaeB, there's absolutely nothing here that is stopping you from addressing my main point rather than CHOOSING to respond to a parenthetical (literally) side comment of mine. YOU are the one who decided to write three paragraphs about your choice of GroceryHeist. I'm not making you do it. YOU chose to do it. And then you have the nerve to accuse ME of using "distracting tactics".<small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:Volunteer Marek|<span style="color:orange;background:blue;font-family:sans-serif;">''' Volunteer Marek '''</span>]]</span></small> 05:50, 12 March 2023 (UTC) |
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===Google scholar discussion=== |
===Google scholar discussion=== |
Revision as of 05:50, 12 March 2023
Discuss this story
<edits violating 500/30 policy (and others) removed>
- Related discussion, for the interested: Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom#Recent_research Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:33, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Another: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2023-03-09/Recent_research Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:13, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
<edits violating 500/30 policy (and others) removed>
Richard C. Lukas
It is worth noting that Richard C. Lukas' book The Forgotten Holocaust, along with another of his works, is part of the "Background Information" reading list provided on the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM) website.
It is described on that site as follows: An account of the systematic persecution of the Polish nation and its residents by the German forces. Features endnotes, a bibliography, appendices including lists of Poles killed for assisting Jews, primary source documents, and an index.
I respectfully disagree with the review author's opinion that a work recommended on the USHMM website should not be suitable for citation in Wikipedia. --Andreas JN466 11:52, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure those are recommendations so much as a bibliography of books in their collection about the topic. It's in a section of the website called "Bibliographies" and the page you linked says (emphasis in the original) "The following bibliography was compiled to guide readers to selected materials on Poles during the Holocaust that are in the Library’s collection." Levivich (talk) 13:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- What they are trying to say there is that the bibliography is not exhaustive: "The following bibliography was compiled to guide readers to selected materials on Poles during the Holocaust that are in the Library’s collection. It is not meant to be exhaustive."
- They also say that the listed items are "selected materials", i.e. selected from the titles they have in their library. So the book was not included just because they have a copy of it but because the curator of the list thought it was appropriate to include it and guide visitors of their library to it (hence the alphanumeric codes following the titles, which are call numbers for the Museum's Library). Andreas JN466 13:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Ewa Kurek is also on that list. She's the one that said COVID was an attempt to replace Western culture with Jewish culture. I don't think that is a list of "recommended" works. Levivich (talk) 14:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- They have one 1997 work of hers in their list, written well before she went off the deep end. Andreas JN466 16:56, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I would be careful with reading too much into what it means that a specific book was listed on a particular website. "Selected" may not necessarily mean "we had a ton of books, read them all, and these are the ones we recommend". It may just mean "these are the ones we had" or "these are the ones we got to", and the one-sentence summary is both generic and detailed at the same time. I've written those things, I've made indexes and annotated bibliographies, and I would not read recommendations in them, unless that's specifically mentioned. Drmies (talk) 18:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, Lukas' book is also included in the Further Reading and Additional Sources appendix of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum book "Nazi Ideology and the Holocaust".
- In that appendix, there are only five books listed for the topic area of "Polish and Soviet civilians, and Soviet prisoners of war". Lukas is the author of two of them. (And yes, Kurek's 1997 work "Your Life Is Worth Mine: How Polish Nuns Saved Hundreds of Jewish Children in German-Occupied Poland, 1939–1945" is also listed in the Appendix, for the topic area "The Destruction of European Jewry", notwithstanding her more recent views.)
- We can't use the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum as a gold standard source throughout Wikipedia's Holocaust coverage and at the same time maintain that they are casually recommending fringe sources that do not deserve to be cited in Wikipedia.
- (On citation numbers see also [1].) Andreas JN466 19:15, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Why do you think they're "recommending" a work just because it's listed in a bibliography? That is not a reasonable inference. Levivich (talk) 19:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- When a book by the USHMM that covers a topic of such national and international importance and appears to have been quite carefully curated lists just five books as Further Reading and Additional Sources for a subtopic (in itself vast) like "Polish and Soviet civilians, and Soviet prisoners of war", why would anyone think that they are just listing random books, including two that are shite? I would say that is not a reasonable assumption.
- By the way, I meant to reply to you earlier on that other point we were discussing in the Newsroom ... I had written quite a lot and then found the discussion had been archived. To cut a long story short: you were right; while the USHMM site covers Nazi victims in general, their use of the term Holocaust on the site applies to Jewish victims only. Apologies and regards. Andreas JN466 19:36, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Why do you think they're "recommending" a work just because it's listed in a bibliography? That is not a reasonable inference. Levivich (talk) 19:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I would be careful with reading too much into what it means that a specific book was listed on a particular website. "Selected" may not necessarily mean "we had a ton of books, read them all, and these are the ones we recommend". It may just mean "these are the ones we had" or "these are the ones we got to", and the one-sentence summary is both generic and detailed at the same time. I've written those things, I've made indexes and annotated bibliographies, and I would not read recommendations in them, unless that's specifically mentioned. Drmies (talk) 18:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- They have one 1997 work of hers in their list, written well before she went off the deep end. Andreas JN466 16:56, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Ewa Kurek is also on that list. She's the one that said COVID was an attempt to replace Western culture with Jewish culture. I don't think that is a list of "recommended" works. Levivich (talk) 14:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- For the record, Andreas already raised this point in the pre-publication discussion, which interested readers can peruse to understand why the reviewer decided to still keep the remark about the book in light of other evidence. Regards, HaeB (talk) 18:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
For the record
Since Groceryheist's review of Grabowski and Klein's "Wikipedia's Intentional Distortion of the Holocaust" has been featured *despite* objections from multiple uninvolved editors (other than me), and *despite* the fact that these editors pointed out both stylistic and factual errors in the review, I do feel the need to say that
- The review not only repeats the falsehoods and misrepresentations in the Grabowski and Klein paper, taking statements from abusive banned editor User:Icewhiz at face value
- it also misrepresents the paper itself
- it uses unprofessional, gushing language
- it misrepresents my own response and objections to the paper.
- it does this by focusing on a minor and really inconsequetial potential error in the paper - number of citations for Richard Lukas (btw, Groceryheist, Klein's "updated table" link doesn't work) - while blatantly ignoring my more substantive criticisms. I don't really care whether the authors get the number of citations Lukas has correctly. What I care about is that they print (repeating Icewhiz) several outright falsehoods about my edits. By focusing on a minor tangent, Groceryheist is misleading the reader into thinking that this was the main critique offered by my (and others' response). "Misleading" here is a polite way of putting it.
- the review uses emotive language and rhetorical manipulation ("defensive responses") to further prejudice the reader
- the review pretends that a criticism of the paper is that it ignores my (and others) OTHER contributions to Wikipedia, but I don't think anyone actually brought that up. My edits in this particular topic area can stand on their own, without me having to invoke work I've done elsewhere. Groceryheist is misleading the reader into thinking that I'm making excuses ("but look at my other edits"). I'm not. I'm saying, 100% clearly, that the paper makes false claims about me and my edits *in this topic area*. This is an indirect insinuation by Groceryheist that I have a guilty conscience and I don't appreciate this kind of manipulation by the review author. Of course this will be discussed and debated in the upcoming ArbCom case.
- it appears to willfully and purposefully omit the key piece of context here, which is the role that User:Icewhiz played in this topic area and possibly in the development of this paper (it seems the authors interviewed Icewhiz, as well as a few other editors but failed to acknowledge or release the interviews, posting only "select" interviews). The context is indeed important, as almost half the Grabowski and Klein paper is just a rehash (paraphrase really) of the "evidence" Icewhiz posted in the 2019 Arbitration Case in which I was involved. Other parts are based on Icewhiz's WP:AE reports from 2018-2019. This is a very serious omission, which again, misleads the reader, particularly since Icewhiz was banned for extreme abuse and harassment of other Wikipedians, something the authors themselves take pains to downplay, while simultanously calling him a "defender of historical accuracy"
- the publication of this review violated Wikipedia policy on WP:CONSENSUS and the point has been raised - why do the Signpost insiders get to ignore output from the general community and operate as if it was not part of Wikipedia? This isn't just the responsibility of the author of the review but also the editor who made a "super veto" decision to run with it.
Volunteer Marek 15:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Especially as part of a publication where the Editor in Chief of the Signpost wasn't available, including a divisive article that got put up a day before the deadline, instead of holding it to next issue at the minimum, was irresponsible. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.2% of all FPs. Currently celebrating his 600th FP! 18:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- The review draft was posted on the day of the writing deadline (March 4), which we have always been communicating to "Recent research" reviewers and Signpost contributors in general for this very purpose. (Also, it had been publicly decided on February 10 already that Groceryheist would contribute this review for this issue - despite Volunteer Marek trying to make us believe back then that even a link to the paper would put us in violation of policy - and we announced the upcoming review in last issue's "In the media".) Either way, publication actually happened not on March 5 but on March 9 due to other reasons, and as Bri pointed out elsewhere, in the days inbetween March 4 and March 9 the review saw more pre-publication scrutiny and discussion than any Signpost story in recent memory. So it is entirely unclear why you claim that it should have been held up for even more discussion.
- The Signpost's writing deadline has been set one day ahead of the publishing deadline for many years (Template:Signpost/Deadline. If you feel that this is "irresponsible" and should be changed, please start a discussion. But do not post misleading claims about the Signpost's process here. Regards, HaeB (talk) 19:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I suppose it is too late to add those responsible for publishing this hit-piece to the ArbCom case? It definitely isn't too late to start asking why Signpost exists, if it is going to be used as a platform to preempt ArbCom decisions. Wikipedia's coverage of the Holocaust is a significant matter, and Wikipedia absolutely must consider itself fair game for external criticism, but this fawning piece of uncritical regurgitation of content demonstrably derived from a globally-blocked former contributor is a disgrace to Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think it's important to say here that criticizing the Signpost for the publication of one article or even two articles during an active ArbCom case is probably a bad precedent to set. The signpost is as close to an independent press as Wikipedia has (with Wikipediocracy serving as its resident tabloid), and independence of that press is pretty important. I think I can agree that publishing this was an unwise decision, but I cannot agree that it should be a disallowed one. We also should not set a precedent to place a "gag order" on the Signpost during ArbCom cases. Since these are some of the most important things that happen on WIkipedia from an admin perspective. It's an important part of editor-facing news, and ignoring it would also be a pretty glaring hole in coverage. A good and functioning press will, from time to time, post something we disagree with. Doesn't make it a bad thing that must be extinguished. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 20:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Signpost is absolutely not 'independent' and it is ridiculous to present it as such. External criticism of Wikipedia is essential, and should be welcomed. Actual external criticism, not Wikipedia contributors role-playing journalists in order to present one side regarding a highly controversial topic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:50, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- User:Groceryheist [2] is not role-playing journalist. He has a PhD and has published multiple peer-reviewed works about Wikipedia (among other topics). He's not role-playing, this is in his professional wheelhouse (as I understand it). And I don't think we welcome criticism by welcoming critics to an arbcom case. Levivich (talk) 21:00, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- The Signpost piece wasn't peer reviewed. I sincerely hope it wouldn't get past one. And when someone with a PhD Writes on Wikipedia, they do so on the same terms as anyone else. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:14, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- G&K was peer-reviewed but that doesn't stop you from calling it poor scholarship, etc. So peer review isn't really the thing that persuades you. Levivich (talk) 21:15, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- That's right, I called it poor scholarship. Because it is. I try (no doubt not always successfully) to make such assessment on the quality of the material itself, rather than on the basis of whichever PoV it is promoting. If the basis for my evaluation was my own PoV, untainted by the obvious fact that G&K was derived from Icewhizz's partisan toxicity and endless bullshit, I'd probably agree with a general suggestion that Wikipedia's coverage of the Holocaust in Poland has been tainted by (amongst other things) Polish nationalist politics. Coverage of the Holocaust is difficult, anywhere. On Wikipedia, with all its inbuilt structural flaws, even more so. Poor scholarship isn't going to fix that. Good scholarship, from people willing to engage in deeper research than regurgitating Icewhizz, just might help, a little. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:56, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- G&K was peer-reviewed but that doesn't stop you from calling it poor scholarship, etc. So peer review isn't really the thing that persuades you. Levivich (talk) 21:15, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- The Signpost piece wasn't peer reviewed. I sincerely hope it wouldn't get past one. And when someone with a PhD Writes on Wikipedia, they do so on the same terms as anyone else. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:14, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- User:Groceryheist [2] is not role-playing journalist. He has a PhD and has published multiple peer-reviewed works about Wikipedia (among other topics). He's not role-playing, this is in his professional wheelhouse (as I understand it). And I don't think we welcome criticism by welcoming critics to an arbcom case. Levivich (talk) 21:00, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Signpost is absolutely not 'independent' and it is ridiculous to present it as such. External criticism of Wikipedia is essential, and should be welcomed. Actual external criticism, not Wikipedia contributors role-playing journalists in order to present one side regarding a highly controversial topic. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:50, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think it's important to say here that criticizing the Signpost for the publication of one article or even two articles during an active ArbCom case is probably a bad precedent to set. The signpost is as close to an independent press as Wikipedia has (with Wikipediocracy serving as its resident tabloid), and independence of that press is pretty important. I think I can agree that publishing this was an unwise decision, but I cannot agree that it should be a disallowed one. We also should not set a precedent to place a "gag order" on the Signpost during ArbCom cases. Since these are some of the most important things that happen on WIkipedia from an admin perspective. It's an important part of editor-facing news, and ignoring it would also be a pretty glaring hole in coverage. A good and functioning press will, from time to time, post something we disagree with. Doesn't make it a bad thing that must be extinguished. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 20:10, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Publishing this was an extremely poor decision. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- For what is my opinion worth here ... I also agree, it was an unwise decision to post this extremely flawed review. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:30, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- To focus on just one distortion of facts here:
- Volunteer Marek claims that Groceryheist's review
misrepresents my own response and objections to the paper [...] by focusing on a minor and really inconsequetial potential error in the paper - number of citations for Richard Lukas
: Actually that part of the review is about both Piotrus' and Volunteer Marek's response pieces. Whatever VM may think about the Google Scholar citations count issue, Piotrus devotes over 600 words to it, also arguing that it affects way more data than just thenumber of citations for Richard Lukas
. Based on his writeup, I think it's also safe to say that Piotrus does not share VM's assessment that this was aa minor and really inconsequetial potential error
in the paper. (As mentioned in the review, it may in the end not have been an error because Google Scholar changed their citation counting methods since Grabowksi and Klein retrieved their numbers back in August 2022. But the discrepancy to the current counts is large and Piotrus was correct in pointing that out.) What's more, this citations analysis was one of the few quantitative arguments in this humanities paper (it's an interesting way to analyze potential bias, by the way, which I think could warrant a closer look to see if it could somehow made into a tool for use by Wikipedians; but I digress). So Groceryheist as a researcher with several peer-reviewed publications about Wikipedia that feature extensive quantitative analysis was very well disposed to examine this particular issue in his review. Yet this choice ends up as fodder for yet another of Volunteer Marek's wild accusations. btw, Groceryheist, Klein's "updated table" link doesn't work
- thanks for pointing that out (the link was mangled during copyediting), I fixed it.*despite* the fact that these editors pointed out both stylistic and factual errors in the review
- Groceryheist listened to and addressed a lot of input in the run-up to publication. Which specific stylistic and factual errors pointed out by editors other than yourself remain in the current, published version?- Regards, HaeB (talk) 21:04, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- That's the thing HaeB. You - and GroceryHeist (who apparently made only 8 edits all of last year and 3 this year before this article came out - why exactly did you ask THEM to write the review?) keep focusing on this very minor "Lukas citations" issue but you willfully and - it looks like - purposefully ignore much more substantial rebuttals and criticisms of G&K. Like for example the fact that Grabowski and Klein, again, following Icewhiz, accuse Piotrus of attempting to "discredit (Anthony) Polonsky" when in fact Piotrus shows pretty conclusively that that's simply false. Yes, your (and GroceryHeist's) combined attempts to both pretend like you "presented the other side" and at the same time completely ignore and omit what this other side said appears to be problematic, manipulative and unethical. Volunteer Marek 17:08, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- There seems to me to be a key point here. HaeB writes above that "...it had been publicly decided on February 10 already that Groceryheist would contribute this review for this issue...". [3] From the evidence publicly available, all that seems to have happened was that Groceryheist stated that he had read the article, and HaeB then asked Groceryheist to write a review. If this was the sum total of the way the decision was arrived at, 'publicly decided' seems to mean nothing more than 'unilaterally decided by HaeB, in public'. Is this the way Signpost normally operates? Handing the megaphone to whoever you fancy, without any clear explanation as to why they have been chosen, even while the topic is under intense discussion? How is this even remotely compatible with acting as "a balanced and impartial news source" [4] AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:41, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
why exactly did you ask THEM to write the review?
- why, of course because he was the most polonophobic reviewer I could find, the perfect tool for my dastardly plan to smear the great Polish nation! No. What happened was simply that on February 10, right after someone else had posted on the Signpost suggestions page saying that the Signpost should cover this paper, Groceryheist weighed in there saying that he had already read it - so I reacted there by sayingWe'll definitely aim to cover it in some form in "Recent research" as with all Wikipedia-focused research papers from such academic journals (Groceryheist you would be welcome to contribute a review)
. I'm surprised that you - Volunteer Marek - don't appear to be aware of this, considering that you 1) went through the trouble of inspecting Groceryheist's recent edits when writing your comment, and 2) you had repeatedly commented in that February 10 discussion yourself (among other things trying to convince us that merely linking to the paper would be a severe policy violation, a stance that has not been adopted by the community by the way, to put it mildly).- This far AndyTheGrump's description is largely correct too. But it leaves out that I happened to know that Groceryheist is an accomplished postdoc researcher with several peer-reviewed academic publications about Wikipedia and other wikis (which VM should be aware of by now), and that he had already contributed a good review to "Recent research" before. Both are honestly more important in this regard that someone's edit count in 2022. (And for the avoidance of doubt, beyond what Groceryheist had said there on February 10, I didn't know anything about his stance about the paper, Poland, antisemitism or any other related topics when I made that invitation.)
- This response is yet another example of what another editor has called your (Volunteer Marek's) "distraction tactic": When being called out on one of your many distortions and unsubstantiated accusations, you simply ignore that and try to deflect by bringing up different claims. Others then again have to spend time debunking your new claims or pointing out that they lack evidence. In this case, in the comment you are replying to, I had debunked one of your distortions of fact in detail, and asked you to provide evidence for another accusation. You ignore both (perhaps because you have no good answer to either) and instead pivot to "just asking questions" about the reviewer choice and scolding him for not having highlighted some particular example. In case you haven't noticed, this review is a high-level overview. It also gives no room to any of G&K's many concrete examples of what they see as problematic in your and Piotrus' actions - even though that might have persuaded quite a few of those readers who haven't read the paper that there is a there there. Regards, HaeB (talk) 05:27, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- The editor you are citing about these "distraction tactics" is involved up to their ears in this whole mess. It's like quoting Eric Trump to support Donald. I have not made "many distortions and unsubstantiated accusations" and since you're now saying this in your own voice, you really need to watch WP:ASPERSIONS and personal attacks, especially since you appear to love to lecture others about this. You have not "debunked" anything, you just started Wikilawyering about whether the words "added" and "introduced" meant the same thing or something like that (it was so inane and pointless that I'm probably not even remembering it correctly). And "distraction tactics"? HaeB, there's absolutely nothing here that is stopping you from addressing my main point rather than CHOOSING to respond to a parenthetical (literally) side comment of mine. YOU are the one who decided to write three paragraphs about your choice of GroceryHeist. I'm not making you do it. YOU chose to do it. And then you have the nerve to accuse ME of using "distracting tactics". Volunteer Marek 05:50, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- That's the thing HaeB. You - and GroceryHeist (who apparently made only 8 edits all of last year and 3 this year before this article came out - why exactly did you ask THEM to write the review?) keep focusing on this very minor "Lukas citations" issue but you willfully and - it looks like - purposefully ignore much more substantial rebuttals and criticisms of G&K. Like for example the fact that Grabowski and Klein, again, following Icewhiz, accuse Piotrus of attempting to "discredit (Anthony) Polonsky" when in fact Piotrus shows pretty conclusively that that's simply false. Yes, your (and GroceryHeist's) combined attempts to both pretend like you "presented the other side" and at the same time completely ignore and omit what this other side said appears to be problematic, manipulative and unethical. Volunteer Marek 17:08, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
Google scholar discussion
- Since I keep being mentioned here, I'll just note, for those who are interested, that "Piotrus devotes over 600 words to it" here, section 20. Miscount of Lukas is not the only problem with that, although I do agree with the authors that some scholars may be overcited compared to others. I am still working on that section (recounting data myself, etc.). Btw,
Google Scholar changed their citation counting methods
- citation/clarification needed? I'd love to learn how Google Scholar counts things, exactly, and how did it change? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:30, 10 March 2023 (UTC)- I wouldn't say precisely that Google Scholar "changed their counting methods" only that the numbers changed. They can change for all sorts of reasons, perhaps the index expanded? Or Google fixed a parsing bug that affected Lukas more than other authors? Google Scholar isn't very public about their methods, to my understanding. Groceryheist (talk) 05:42, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- (ec) Thanks for the convenience link. (Btw, have you considered subsection headings for those 27 points? Might make it easier to navigate and link to.)
- Regarding a change in Google Scholar's citation count methods, note that I mentioned that with a "may" - it's just one possibility. But comparing the August 2022 and March 2023 columns in Klein's updated table (OK, OK, this time I'll pull the convenience link from the review for us: [5]), it seems pretty probable that this was a systemic change - it is clear that the citation counts drastically increased for all seven authors in their analysis:
- Since I keep being mentioned here, I'll just note, for those who are interested, that "Piotrus devotes over 600 words to it" here, section 20. Miscount of Lukas is not the only problem with that, although I do agree with the authors that some scholars may be overcited compared to others. I am still working on that section (recounting data myself, etc.). Btw,
Google Scholar citation count, August 2022 Google Scholar citation count, March 2023 Richard Lukas 108 652 Marek Jan Chodakiewicz 322 403 Doris Bergen 1161 1844 Samuel Kassow 834 1326 Zvi Gitelman 2367 3690 Deborah Dwork 1362 1887 Nechama Tec 644 1398
- (By the way, did I misremember this or had you also checked the authors' numbers for other authors than Lukas? If not, then it would honestly have been a bit quick to jump to conclusions that this discrepancy is evidence of bias against Lukas.)
- PS: In the aforementioned email thread yesterday where Klein had reached to Groceryheist to address his criticism of this issue in the draft review (which he looped me into), we also pointed out that their counting method was not well documented, as you surely have noticed yourself (they mentioned using Advanced Search in Google Scholar but not how). She has since fixed that too. We also pointed out that it would be good to provide the citation counts for the individual publications of each author (before summing them up), as well as screenshots to document the raw search results at the time they were retrieved.
- Regards, HaeB (talk) 05:54, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- @HaeB I did check the authors' numbers for other authors than Lukas. I don't think the error in their initial data was intentional, it seems to me more of a copy paste error (108 is the number you still get from this query for Chodakiewicz - coincidence?). It would be best if they provided a link to query or queries used; although those can change over time so screenshots are ideal (but also a major PITA to record/keep/share). I actually recorded Gitelman's number as 3689 last weekend - seems he gained a citation since :) Their current numbers appear to be roughly correct when I compare them to mine (I use a bit different methodology). Setting aside the undercounting of Lukas (which does affect their Chart 3 a bit...), and the unaddressed issues, from methodological to technical, such as
- 1) their way of counting citations on Wikipedia - all undercounted too, as I note in my response (point 20, I'll consider adding subheadings to them, good idea), since insource:"Doris Bergen " =/= insource:" Bergen Doris", plus
- 2) the authors count not the total number of citations to these authors but just the number of Wikipedia articles those scholars are mentioned in - stress, mentioned, that doesn't even mean they are cited in them... our insource search sucks, btw)
- 3) Why compare these particular authors and not others?
- 4) How to account for GScholar weakness in counting non-English publications and citations?
- 5) Who added those citations? (User:Jayen466 already did a quick check and found out that it doesn't appear to be me of VM: [6])
- 6) Perhaps most fundamental, something I am just starting to look at - are citations to Lukas or Chodakiewicz used to support a particular ("Holocaust distorting") narrative? I mean, the first citation to Chodakiewicz (arguably, a much more controversial scholar than Lukas) I checked, following [7] which lead me to History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland#cite_ref-179 is used to... debunk an antisemitic stereotype (
Other historians have indicated that the level of Jewish collaboration could well have been less than suggested
). It's ironic, really, all things considered. The second cite to him (in the same article) is used to source a number of Jewish casualties, perhaps controversial (lower range?), ideally likely replaced by a more respected scholar, but the sentence it is referencing to is just terrible anyway, peppered with citations needed for other numbers - click and weep (History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland#cite_ref-Chodakiewicz-212_257-0). Perhaps this entire sentence should be deleted. Use 3 in Article 2 is just a list of his book in further reading in Invasion of Poland. Use 4 at Occupation_of_Poland_(1939–1945)#cite_ref-Chodakiewicz_146-0 seems to have nothing to with Polish-Jewish history. Use 5 at History_of_Poland#cite_ref-The_Warsaw_Rising_1944:_Perception_and_Reality_337-0 is also not related to Polish-Jewish history. Use 6 is the same as Use 4 I think, copypasted sentence, not related to PJH (Gulag#cite_ref-Chodakiewicz_70-0). Uses 7-8 (two citations in the article) is, again, not related to PJH (Home_Army#cite_ref-Chod_142-0). Use 8 (Vistula#cite_ref-chodakiewicz_43-0), again, just generic military history. Use 9, ditto (History_of_Poland_(1939–1945)#cite_ref-Chodakiewicz_96-0, History_of_Poland_(1939–1945)#cite_ref-Chod_120-0). Uses 10 plus few more in Article 9 (he is cited 8 times in that article I think), again, not PJH but about Soviet partisans in Poland (Soviet_partisans#cite_note-MJC-76 and several others). Article 10 has two citations to him, Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation#cite_ref-Chodakiewicz-Between_51-0 (mentions Jews but is an uncontroversial way I think?The Einsatzgruppen were also responsible for the indiscriminate murder of Jews and Poles during the 1941 German invasion of the Soviet Union
) and the second citation is once again not related to PJH (Nazi_crimes_against_the_Polish_nation#cite_ref-120). This is just 10 out of 100+ articles he is used for, but I think this demonstrates a major fallacy in the assumption by the authors, that such sources are used to advance some "Holocaust distorting" narrative. Here I just showed that out of 10 articles he is cited for, only in one article he is used in the context of PJH, and even there it's not obvious he is used to support some claims of the "Polish heroic/nationalistic narrative" (maybe the second use there would qualify?). So in summary, while G. and K. may be right that Chodakiewicz, for example, is overcited on Wikipedia, they should prove first that he is usually cited in ways that advance the "Holocaust distorting" narrative. As I show above, it is likely this key assumption is not met, and if this is the case, well... this entire argument that said narrative is actually "winning" starts looking a bit dubious. - Instead, a number of alternative hypothesis should be considered. For example, H1: Polish military(?) history is covered on Wikipedia better than some other topics, so there will be more citations to scholars writing about this topic than to scholars in another random field (ex. general Holocaust history). H2: The number of citations to particular scholar is correlated more to his works availability in Google Books and open access and such rather than to the narrative they are associated with (FUTON bias?). This is just from some quick brainstorming. A proper research piece should discuss all of the above in the limitations section - a section that doesn't exist in that essay (nor does it have a methodology section...). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:42, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
This is as I said a relatively minor point in the overall scheme of things, but I do feel compelled to point out that Zvi Gitelman's main area is the History of Jews in Russia and Soviet Union so it's not surprising that's he's not cited much in Wikipedia's articles on Holocaust in Poland. If he's undercited in the topic area Holocaust in Soviet Union then that should be raised with whoever is working on that. I have no idea why Grabowski and Klein decided to throw him in there, maybe to "inflate" the numbers or, since at least one of them is writing outside their area of expertise, due to ignorance. BTW, Gitelman's work on the Jewish Labor Bund is really good and I recommend this book he edited The Emergence Of Modern Jewish Politics: Bundism And Zionism In Eastern Europe (particularly his article) for anyone who wants to fix the under-cited-on-Wikipedia situation. Volunteer Marek 17:22, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
- From the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum's website [8] (my bolding):
For his J.B. and Maurice C. Shapiro Senior Scholar-in-Residence Fellowship [at the Holocaust Museum, in 2005-2006], Professor Gitelman conducted research on “East European and Soviet Jewry before and during World War Two.” [...] While in residence at the Museum, Professor Gitelman gave an evening lecture on “Why They Killed Their Neighbors: The Myth of ‘Judeo-Bolshevism’ and Holocaust-Era Pogroms in Eastern Europe.”
- Those research topics seem pretty relevant in the context of Grabowski and Klein's paper. Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:11, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
@HaeB: So can I write and publish a rebuttal or not? And don't tell me "submissions is that way". I'm not going to waste my time writing something just to have the rug pulled out from me by you (which I think under circumstances is a legitimate concern on my part). People can of course discuss and debate whatever I write but given that you just published what is basically a hit piece against strong consensus, I'd expect some leeway here. Volunteer Marek 20:06, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- We're entering WP:ICANTHEARYOU territory. As I already told you here, that decision is not up to me, and will depend on the content. And while I still stand by my earlier suggestion
I think it could be a good idea for the Signpost to offer [Piotrus and Volunteer Marek] (and/or other editors covered) to write a response, to be considered for publication as an opinion article
(which you tried to misrepresent later, one of your many distortions of facts in that pre-publication discussion), I will also point out that since I floated that idea on February 10, the Signpost (Andreas) has already prominently featured your and Piotrus' objections in the last Signpost issue's "In the media", as discussed above. Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:26, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Removal of comments from this talk page
@Piotrus and Volunteer Marek: Regarding your deletions of comments from this talk page here, here and [9]:
I appreciate the concern and your disagreement with these harsh criticisms of the "Distortion of the Holocaust" review (speaking as the editor of this Signpost section who supported its publication despite strenuous objections from some people). But WP:TPO sets a pretty high bar for deletion of comments and I think that as long as it doesn't reach the level of WP:NPA, we can deal with criticisms like that we are spreading "lies of Grabowski" or furthering "histeria [sic] introduced by Icewhiz and his Jewish friends", however factually wrong they may be.
And seeing that this review might be attracting considerable critical attention from a non-Wikimedian Polish audience, I would not like us/the Signpost/Wikipedia being accused of censorship, especially given that Volunteer Marek's cryptic rationale "500/30 policy" will not likely be intelligible to many. Regards, HaeB (talk) 15:51, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- WP:TPO is irrelevant here as the relevant policy is this Arbitration Commitee Motion [10]. This has been explained several times already.
- Oh and NOW you're going to start paying attention to Wikipedia policies like NPA and TPO, *after* you violated policy by going through with the review in opposition to WP:CONSENSUS which is a policy? Please explain - which Wikipedia policies actually apply and which don't apply to the Signpost? Or is it that the policies only apply to some editors and not others? Volunteer Marek 15:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- And there's nothing "cryptic" about my rationale. I provided the link. Several times. Also, these accounts have already been blocked [11] [12] etc. Volunteer Marek 15:57, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek
Oh and NOW you're going to start paying attention to Wikipedia policies like NPA and TPO
- not sure what you think is inconsistent here compared to the pre-publication discussion, where no comments were removed, also none of your own 50 (even though you falsely accused Grabowski and Klein of lying there, for example), and civility was a in fact a topic of discussion there including by myself (such as when I called you out on your mocking dismissal of a past ArbCom sanction against you regarding incivility, in an attempt to nudge you toward a more constructive discussion style in that debate). - And no, the Signpost didn't violate any policy with the publication of this review. WP:CONSENSUS does not mean "the Signpost must not publish views about a peer-reviewed academic paper that do not align with my own opinion about it" (besides, we already prominently featured your own view in the last Signpost, and Groceryheist again acknowledges it in his review).
- Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:31, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Not interested in going through previous arguments again, but no, you didn't show that I "falsely" did anything - you just engaged in playing semantic word games as a way of justifying your own decision to run this very bad review.
- "As the old lawyer's line says, if the facts are on your side, pound the facts; if the law is on your side, pound the law; if neither are on your side, pound the table. I'd add: and demand “civility.” " - Paul Krugman. Your own responses in those discussion were a constant barrage of taunting and sniping at me so there's your "incivility" right there.
WP:CONSENSUS does not mean "the Signpost must not publish ...
Nobody said that's what CONSENSUS means. CONSENSUS does mean that when there's a whole bunch of uninvolved editors telling you "this is really bad, don't publish it", you respect their opinion rather than ignore it or try to WP:WIKILAWYER it away. Was there or was there not significant opposition to the publication of this review? If this had gone to WP:RfC, which it really should have but I guess it's too late now, how do you think it would've been closed?besides, we already prominently featured your own view in the last Signpost
Um, this "prominently featured" was a single sentence " Volunteer Marek, another editor named in the essay, has also published a multi-part response in English on his Substack." in a 600 word essay (for the record I'm not blaming Andreas since that wasn't the purpose of his essay). "Prominently"? You're saying this in all seriousness? Volunteer Marek 16:43, 9 March 2023 (UTC)Um, this "prominently featured" was a single sentence
- The very headline of that story wasWikipedians rebut paper alleging "intentional distortion" of Holocaust history
("Wikipedians" referring to Piotrus and yourself), so yes, I call that "prominently".- Regards, HaeB (talk) 17:01, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Do you think that headline reflected the content of the piece accurately? Volunteer Marek 17:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't write this headline and I have in fact some concerns about, given that the "rebut" vs. "alleging" wording seemed biased against G&K / in favor of you and Piotrus (see the conversation between Andreas and myself in the pre-publication discussion, right above "Arbitary break 2").
- But anyway, what is your point here? That the headline is not a prominent part of a Signpost article? That this headline contains factual inaccuracies? (Which?) Regards, HaeB (talk) 04:32, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
- Do you think that headline reflected the content of the piece accurately? Volunteer Marek 17:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- And regarding
And there's nothing "cryptic" about my rationale. I provided the link. Several times
- uh, actually only after I made that comment. - And in any case, the note that readers now see on top this talk page (
<edits violating 500/30 policy (and others) removed>
) is without any link and unintelligible to anyone except those editors most familiar with the community's internal controversies about the content area that is the topic of the first review in this issue and the corresponding ArbCom ruling. - Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:53, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek
- PS: I see that since [13], Piotrus has since had the sockpuppeting allegation confirmed for one of the commenters (Wierch Wisełka), so yes, that comment should be removed under policy. Still, even there, the link it provided is informative about what kind of pushback Grabowski, Klein and Wikipedia are receiving from certain corners. Regards, HaeB (talk) 16:03, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- I just blocked another one, and revdeleted a comment. HaeB, I see no positive value in leaving that kind of material on the page or even in the history. Drmies (talk) 16:07, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- That's kind of the rhetorical trick here though, isn't? "Some bad people criticize X, therefore all people who criticize X are bad, so we can just dismiss all criticism out of hand". Based on this common fallacy. Volunteer Marek 16:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- The next Signpost could have an article about this talkpage. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Heh, yes. Also, basic economics teaches us that monopolies are usually inefficient and incompetent. Unfortunately costs of entry are very high so doubt that will change anytime soon. Volunteer Marek 16:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- The costs of entry to compete with the Signpost are very high? How much do they charge you to create a new page on Wikipedia? Levivich (talk) 18:27, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, see more basic economics: Opportunity cost. Most of which is "time". You really think that just throwing up an alternative to the Signpost would be simple and easy? Volunteer Marek 18:37, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- The costs of entry to compete with the Signpost are very high? How much do they charge you to create a new page on Wikipedia? Levivich (talk) 18:27, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Heh, yes. Also, basic economics teaches us that monopolies are usually inefficient and incompetent. Unfortunately costs of entry are very high so doubt that will change anytime soon. Volunteer Marek 16:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- The next Signpost could have an article about this talkpage. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Ramblings about "Jewish lies" are not legitimate criticism. Removing trolling and disruption, which this unquestionably is, is explicitly allowed by TPO; you don't need to prove block evasion for that. --Blablubbs (talk) 16:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- These edits were specifically fair game to remove. I have to question whether it was wise for Marek to be the one to do so, but an uninvolved editor could do so without issue. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Absolutely agree those comments were very evident SOAPBOXing from SPAs. I think if I were VM, I would have waited for others to remove them given my own involvement, but I think the removals were correct. I also do not think VM's removal should be sanctioned or met with any admin actions. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 20:04, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- These edits were specifically fair game to remove. I have to question whether it was wise for Marek to be the one to do so, but an uninvolved editor could do so without issue. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
- Full transparency, I was told about this article by someone offsite, but I don't believe commenting here is canvassing. Complaints such as
histeria [sic] introduced by Icewhiz and his Jewish friends
are a straightforward violation of WP:NPA since they implicitly target all Jewish people by being anti-semitic. It's possible to say the G&K article as being full of lies without taking one's comments to an anti-semitic place. Volunteer Marek's comment did an excellent job of criticizing the article without resorting to antisemitic canards. Chess (talk) (please use{{reply to|Chess}}
on reply) 21:03, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
ECP applied
Per WP:APLECP, extended confirmed protection has been applied to this page. This action as been logged at [14]. --Jayron32 16:58, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
The chronology on Wikipedia suggests that a progenitor/related concern was first acknowledged through a list of arbitration committee findings in 2009 (with indicators of the source issues and concerns going back to 2005). The current arbitration "revisits" and references a prior arbitration that occurred in 2021. "I know you are but what am I" or "My facts are more correct that your facts" does not negate the process and governance concerns which remained open and thus unaddressed for 13-19 years. I think the current arbitration committee might want to look back to 2009 and prior. Flibbertigibbets (talk) 01:41, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
A more trivial question
I don't intend to join in the intensely substantive discussion among my more informed colleagues, but is this sentence possibly missing a word or two? "Many Poles believe elements of the distortion narrative which Poland's current government has taken legal and administrative steps (e.g., creating monuments for apocryphal Poles who rescued Jews) to popularize." Jim.henderson (talk) 00:43, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- The "which" should be a "that" in the current current sentence structure so as to be grammatically correct. Moving the parenthetical part to after "to popularize" would also improve clarity. — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 05:28, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
Zooming out
- I would tag the review of the Grabowski article with an npov tag if I could, for multiple reasons starting with the claim that it "shows" anything. It *claims* many things, or "says", if my proposed edit itself seems nnpov. I was working on the Vichy France section of Collaboration with the Axis powers when I became aware of the Grabowski article. I've since reviewed the entire article several times and found quite a number of problems that were by no means limited to Poland, including an egregious error of fact and a distortion of responsibility in France, a complete absence of sourcing in multiple sections, and several copyvios, in Greece and Estonia and the lede section. I approached Poland with some trepidation given the circumstances. I found that some of what Grabowski said about the article was quite true and remained uncorrected. My focus has been on correcting problems, not responsibility for the problems, but the look that I did take at the history indicated that edits that I knew to be questionable were mostly carried out by IPs. The exception was in the Channel Islands. Sample size may have been a problem here; I have not yet read the entire history of the collaboration article, and only read about five months of edits from several years ago. Nonetheless I am very much unconvinced that there was "intentional" distortion by the parties. Also, I have previously pointed out that Grabowski mocks Piotrus for saying that a source was reliable, but does not appear to understand the term of art as it is used in Wikipedia. It is entirely possible to my mind that the problem with that assessment was Wikipedia's misconceptions about print sources, which have always seemed a kind of snobbery to me. I do agree with the assessment that polite distortions of the truth seem to prevail in wiki proceedings over attempts to defend it that also express irritation. This is a serious systemic flaw, and yes yes, what is truth, said jesting Pilate, who did not await an answer. And yet, we are an encyclopedia, or trying to be. Nobody likes Cassandra, but I am going to say it anyway: we should beware of easy answers and simplistic accusation. Elinruby (talk) 00:09, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
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