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Periodic table
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview Some authors think group 3 contains Sc, Y, La, and Ac (short: the La form); others Sc, Y, Lu, and Lr (the Lu form); and some give a compromise form where all 30 lanthanides and actinides are put under yttrium (the * form). WP currently shows La as a default. This has been argued about for a while this year. On WP, all significant options in reliable sources must be considered. But putting 3 different periodic table templates everywhere is awkward. University textbooks from the 2010s gives percentages of 48% La, 18% Lu, 33% *, Google shows 2/3 majority for * and equal 1/6 for La and Lu, and most articles arguing about the issue (since 1921) conclude in favour of Lu. Complicating matters is that we currently show both 18 column (e.g. I believe this impasse can be resolved by appealing to the relevant organisation: the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC). They currently show a compromise form of * under Y on their website, although they do not endorse it. In the 2005 Red Book this is the only form presented, in 18 column. In the 1990 form the same 18 column form appear, but also a 32 column form is presented which shows Lu under Y instead. IUPAC currently has a project looking at this since 2015, but we have no information about when they'll be done, and we need something in the meantime. The chair of this project (Eric Scerri) called this 1988 statement in a IUPAC report an endorsement of the Lu form.
There is some unclarity, because despite talking about Lu under Y, justifying it with sources and from properties of the elements, and explaining how to contract the form to 18 column by taking about La-Yb and Ac-No, the arrangement referred to in the Weinheim table is * under Y. However, Scerri is on the current IUPAC project and calls it an endorsement of Lu under Y, and it is very possible that he has access to some documents we do not that leads him to this conclusion. As such, either Lu under Y or * under Y would seem acceptable for 18-column tables. For 32-column tables, such as the one in
I would prefer #3 for some other reasons (mostly because that is what most articles in the literature focusing on this issue support, and it avoids contradicting ourselves when it comes to explaining the Madelung rule; the latter would especially improve the periodic table article when it explains chemical periodicity), but in the interest of compromise and getting back to something more productive I am more than happy to support #1 or #2. Of course, when the current IUPAC project makes a decision, we can relook at it. In previous discussions the majority of users involved either supported changing WP to default Lu on this or other bases (me, DA, CR, Dreigorich, Officer781, YBG) or, even if they opposed Lu, seem at least fine with the * compromise (Michael D. Turnbull and Graeme Bartlett). As mentioned above I would be fine with any of the three options above. Sandbh has so far been unwilling to compromise on anything but the La form. I was directed at WP:ANI to bring the issue here. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? More perspectives and building towards a consensus. Summary of dispute by SandbhPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I don’t understand why we are here. Our Periodic table article shows La in Group 3. This is the most popular form of table in the literature. A few members of our small WP:ELEMENTS project would like to change the table so that Group 3 has Lu in it. I don’t. An rfc was called by Double sharp. It was withdrawn by him the next day after being strongly opposed by a member of WP:CHEMISTRY and myself (I described the rfc as illegitimate). Like all people who contribute to Wikipedia talk pages, I express my opinions. Sometimes others agree; sometimes they don’t. So it goes. Now then, why are we here? Sandbh (talk) 10:58, 4 August 2020 (UTC) Objection: @Robert McClenon and Double sharp: I object to Double sharp's multiple (biased and out of context) postings in this forum, as he seeks to successively refine his arguments. Sandbh (talk) 08:06, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Acknowledgement: I thank other contributors here for their concise and interesting perspectives. Sandbh (talk) 08:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC) IUPAC: Noting the calibre of the folk on the IUPAC Group 3 Project (including Scerri, Jensen, Lavelle, Restrepo, Ball) I will very likely accept their recommendation, whether La or Lu. I understand Double sharp will do this too, although he has said he will grumble about an La outcome. Sandbh (talk) 08:24, 7 August 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Droog AndreyPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I'm sure that was a sad mistake to change Sc-Y-Lu-Lr to Sc-Y-La-Ac here on WP. The periodic table is not a chart to describe elements, but a system where they are naturally organized. The literature that focus on the point confirms that Sc-Y-La-Ac was just a historical misunderstanding. Double sharp is honestly trying to fix the consequences of his own fault. He collated a heavy lot of primary and secondary sources and presented a deep and transparent analysis of the problem. His approach looks elegant since it is based on consistence, verifiability and logic. The key points of disagreement with Sandbh are explained here. As a chemist and high-school chemistry teacher, I strongly support Double sharp's position here. Droog Andrey (talk) 15:43, 5 August 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by YBGPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by ComplexRationalPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by R8RPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The discussion is about whether the periodic table used in English Wikipedia should change its composition or not. There are different proposals in the scientific community what element group 3 of the periodic table should be made of. None of them is right or wrong; it's more about more or less fit for purpose, and the purpose can vary. It appears most chemists don't really care whether it is one way or another; this is a rather niche dispute in itself, though it is sometimes seen as a part of a larger important topic. Most editors, including myself, have a preference for the -Lu-Lr layout. Sandbh has a preference for the -La-Ac layout. However, he also notes that most sources also use this format. I think this is the decisive argument for the English Wikipedia. This could be countered if this version was wrong but as I said, there is no right or wrong here; it boils down to preference of what you want to emphasize. This problem has been discussed in enormous length at WT:ELEM. Like Sandbh, I see no strong case for a change in the English Wikipedia. One potential turning point in the future may be a decision by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) to recommend a specific composition of group 3; IUPAC is often seen as the ultimate body governing chemical nomenclature. IUPAC is currently tackling the problem. I am not sure whether we should automatically accept whatever they propose but their recommendation will certainly have a great value in a future discussion.--R8R (talk) 05:38, 6 August 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by ДрейгоричPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The periodic table as it is usually presented has eighteen columns, or groups, numbered from left to right. The composition of the third of these groups, or Group 3, is the subject of intense debate. Directly below yttrium (Y), the thirty-ninth element, which elements should be slotted in? Lanthanum and actinium below (the La form)? Or lutetium and lawrencium (the Lu form)? The periodic table has been drawn both ways over the decades and the issue is still unresolved to this day. IUPAC has no position on the issue at present (they draw it as a * table with 30 elements removed from the main table and not 28, The discussion, primarily on the talk page of WP:ELEM (I will not even attempt to summarize it as it was spread out over the course of seven months and multiple archives!), led to overwhelming support of the Lu form ( As for me, I'm one of the Summary of dispute by Michael D. TurnbullPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I was unaware of the Group 3 dispute either in the chemistry literature or on Wikipedia until late July this year, when Sandbh raised a question on a page I was watching, WT:WikiProject Chemistry and subsequently Double sharp commented at length in that thread. I then read some of their extensive discussion at WT:ELEM and responded by saying I thought it was "Enough already!". My analysis was "that you both think that you are discussing the periodic table whereas in fact you are each discussing a periodic table: unfortunately not the same one! Your only focus should be "how can we improve the periodic table article?" (on Wikipedia there is only one)". In fact, the participants all agree that the periodic table article should discuss the various historic forms of the periodic table and the Group 3 debate, using reliable sources, in a WP:NPOV way and I think this is already done well. The problem is that Wikipedia has to settle on a single consistent version of the table for its various templates, such as Summary of dispute by Graeme BartlettPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by DePiepPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Officer781Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I am part of team Lu, Lr to be included into Group 3. To be honest I understand that this is controversial and that is precisely why there is an IUPAC committee drawn up to decide on this. The key question in this I feel is which elements use their f-orbitals in bonding. La and Ac, with their f-orbitals being empty, would probably be more likely to use them in bonding (be it in molecules, the pure metal, semiconductor compounds, etc) than Lu, Lr since the latter have full f-orbitals (but these orbitals would also have to be sufficiently lowered in energy; compare the situation with zinc, cadmium and mercury with their core-like d-orbitals. I'm not sure if Lu, Lr use their f-orbitals, someone can help to clarify this). I agree that Lu, Lr should nonetheless still be considered Lanthanides and Actinides (which span 15 elements each and also includes Lanthanum and Actinium). I am actually an experimental materials scientist so I am not very informed about the pure chemistry stuff pertaining to this. Other than the main argument above I defer to Eric Scerri.--Officer781 (talk) 14:30, 5 August 2020 (UTC) Periodic table discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First, this dispute appears to have eleven editors. As such, it is really better suited for a Request for Comments than for moderated discussion. I haven't yet read why the RFC that was advanced briefly was then closed. Perhaps, after I read the background discussion in more detail, I might be able to help formulate the RFC properly. Second, it isn't obvious to me why the issue has generated so much controversy, when any chemist should know that which form of the table is used is a matter of convention, and if all of the forms are described, that is what an encyclopedia should do, but that is only my opinion. (Some things in the physical sciences are matters of conventional representation, including how you list the elements.) Third, I have collapsed much of the above for two reasons. It is far too long to be informative, and besides it comments on contributors rather than on content. Fourth, is there a reason why an RFC is not appropriate? Fifth, is there a reason why it makes a difference which form is used? Sixth, do you want help with an RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:58, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Impartial comment: Thank you User:Дрейгорич. For the record, I did not interpret the RFC as an ad hominen attack. Sandbh (talk) 08:00, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
1. The "dispute"/difference of opinion has been discussed or raised in WP:ELEMENTS (four separate occasions IIRC); the Periodic table talk page; an RFC (not by me); WP:ANI (twice; not by me); and now here. 2. There is no controversy in the literature. In a 2020 Nature article on "The periodic table and the physics that drives it", the authors note that, "Fuzzy concepts like chemical similarity often lead to unnecessary disputes concerning the PTE." This is one of those disputes. You are on message, in my opinion, when you said any chemist should know that which form of the table is used is a matter of convention. Scerri, who is chair of the IUPAC project looking at Group 3, said effectively the same thing: "We should accept that a degree of convention must be used in selecting a periodic table that can be presented as perhaps the best possible table that combines objective factors as well as interest dependence." In 100 years there have been, say, 20 authors who suggested Lu should go in Group 3 rather than Lu. Jensen had a red hot go in 1983 by gathering together many of the previous arguments. His effort did not gain traction. Scerri referred to Jensen's argument as being too selective. 3. Thank you. 4. There is no reason why an rfc would be inappropriate if the relevant WP policies are observed including WP:NPOV; WP:VERIFY; WP:NOR and WP:CIVIL 5. Yes, we have to choose a form to show in the lead of our periodic table article, and in its main body. As an encyclopedia, we show the form that is most popular in the literature. We discuss the other variants in the main body of the article, and we go into a lot more detail in the Group 3 article. 6. I personally see no need for an RFC. --- Sandbh (talk) 02:42, 5 August 2020 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: Here's my take. I responded above, but here's a more thorough answer. 1. Answered above. It was done a bit too hastily and a bit in an ad hominem manner. 2. There should be a neutral option for describing the position of, e.g. neon in the periodic table as Double sharp put it, or more controversially, something like lutetium. When referencing the periodic table, we don't need to draw out multiple forms each time unnecessarily. 3. Yes. 4. I would not be against a second attempt at a more neutrally-worded RFC. 5. I explained above in 2. This is a surprisingly controversial issue among chemists. 6. I'd be open to getting some help in formulating an RFC. ― Дрейгорич / Dreigorich Talk 12:20, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
Because I have real-life commitments, and because it is increasingly clear that the issues between myself and Sandbh are impossible to resolve: I withdraw the request for dispute resolution and the proposition for a new RFC. Although I still believe that the change I propose would be a good one, and I still absolutely disagree with Sandbh's views and interpretations, I think it is not worth arguing when it just makes me unhappy and will take time away from things I would much rather be doing. So, I apologised to Sandbh on his talk page for going overboard again, and I leave the project instead. This should be resolved unless others want to follow up. Double sharp (talk) 14:15, 7 August 2020 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: Although the guy who bought it up decided to withdraw it due to real-life commitments, I'd still like for us to continue and hopefully get the situation resolved between all of us. ― Дрейгорич / Dreigorich Talk 14:36, 7 August 2020 (UTC) Third or So Statement by VolunteerI don't think that I am moderating so much as trying to wrap this up. However, read the usual rules. Comment on content, not contributors. Be civil and concise. Do the remaining editors want an RFC? If so, we will have an RFC. Otherwise, we will close this discussion. Third or So Statements by EditorsComment: @Дрейгорич: What did you have in mind? As I see it where we seem to be going is to retain the status quo—noting each of us may have differing views on the Group 3 question (which is fine)—and await the outcome of the IUPAC Group 3 project's deliberations. Sandbh (talk) 03:42, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
I feel there is no dispute. The current situation is an outcome of prolonged discussions at WP:ELEMENTS over many years, predating your involvement, Дрейгорич and Michael. Double sharp and I have the deepest knowledge of all the issues, including the history of the form of periodic table appearing on WP. I understand R8R followed our discussions closely. Your involvement is welcome, however. Let us recall the table appearing on the IUAPC site is neither endorsed nor recommended by them. The PTs appearing on the Royal Society of Chemistry site and the German Chemical Society site are the La form. Double sharp sought to change the current situation. There was an RFC. It was withdrawn the next day. Double sharp was considering another RFC. He has now said he will not proceed with it. The IUPAC Group 3 project will make a report. I have a feeling there will not be that long to wait. Double sharp has withdrawn from WP:ELEMENTS. R8R commented above, "Like Sandbh, I see no strong case for a change in the English Wikipedia." I don't always agree with R8R but I respect, what seems to me, his always well-considered contributions. As a relatively long-standing member of WP:ELEMENTS I've made (perhaps more than) my share of WP:BOLD suggestions for change; some get up; some don't. Scerri recently (2020) acknowledged the La form is the most popular. He is the chair of the IUPAC group 3 project. That said, he personally supports Lu, most importantly noting he distinguishes between his role as the project chair, and his personal views. At this time, I see no imminent need nor sufficient merit in changing the form of PT currently shown in the lead and main body of the our periodic table article. Sandbh (talk) 05:52, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
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Greek-Turkish relations
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview I'd like to add a sentence with reliable sources, however it reverted several times by three users becausee of POV and unreliable sources, even I wrote a neutral sentence. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Greek-Turkish_relations#Add_a_new_sentence User talk:SilentResident#About the revert on Greek-Turkish relations User talk:Khirurg#About revert in Greece-Turkey relations How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Help from a third person. It will helpful for the discussion, I think. Summary of dispute by Dr.K.Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by SilentResidentPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by KhirurgPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Greek-Turkish relations discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Chiropractic
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview There are a few editors on the page that seem to be against the article maintaining a neutral position. These editors seem to be pushing words such as "pseudoscience" into the lede as fact rather than opinion. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? It appears that an edit war is underway, and it would be helpful to have outside input. I stumbled on this page and found it to have a biased point of view. I attempted to clarify some wording to make it more balanced without removing the controversy, but at least one editor is determined to undo any of my attempts Summary of dispute by Roxy the dogPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Chiropractic discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Benjaminfreyart. You opened a discussion like 10 minutes ago. You are the one edit warring. In any event, this is way too early to open a dispute resolution procedure. --McSly (talk) 16:43, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
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Laura Loomer
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview Laura Loomer is a congressional candidate and public figure. Currently her picture is a YouTube screenshot. I have attempted to suggest an edit with several different photos that would be more appropriate for someone of prominence. But all my requests have been denied by the admin @GorillaWarfare. She claims it is impossible for Wikipedia to find a better picture to use than a blurry screenshot. She said my assertion otherwise was only because I "didn't like the photo." I contend that she is not impartial in the matter, and am requesting oversight on what should be an easy edit. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Laura_Loomer How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Please find a better photo for Ms. Loomer. I find it unbelievable that Wikipedia cannot find anything better than a YouTube screenshot for a congressional candidate. Summary of dispute by GorillaWarfareGoing to keep it short, since there's really not much of a "dispute" here. SamMontana is unfamiliar with Wikipedia's policies around freely-licensed images and fair use, and I have done my best to describe said policies to them at Talk:Laura Loomer#Semi-protected edit request on 20 August 2020. Per the conversation I see at User talk:SamMontana#Laura Loomer, it appears that the user understands that I have simply been explaining long-standing policy, and so the issue appears to be that the user disagrees with the policy. That is not an issue for dispute resolution. As for the assertion that I am not impartial because I said that they don't like the photo, I don't understand that complaint. What I said was, Laura Loomer discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Miss Teen International
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview There is a dispute over control of the edits on the Miss Teen International page on Wikipedia. The beauty pageant, which was initially held for more than 20 years in Costa Rica, ceased to be held and two new contests with the same name emerged in Latin America and Asia. However someone from India placed a protection to prevent Wikipedia users editing about Ecuador-based contest, I requested a consensus to edit the page dividing it regionally without any response so far. The international competition held in Ecuador has a valid trademark registration in Ecuador under the Andean Community of Nations - CAN laws, after the resolution issued by the Secretary of Intellectual Rights SENADI https://www.derechosintelectuales.gob.ec/ Intellectual Property Authority of Ecuador . According to Intellectual Property laws at the international level, the ownership of a trademark is territorial. In other words, a trademark registered in a certain country does not enjoy exclusivity over another, each country have theirs own laws of Intellectual Property. In the Miss Teen International page who edited it mentions: In 2016, Enrique González sold the Miss Teen International franchise to Indian businessman Nikhil Anand, we have proceeded to investigate said information discovering that it is totally false. Enrique Gonzalez former beauty pageant organizer afirmed that he never sold your rights. The user Aayat1998 who are making reversions seem to be heavily involved in the beauty pageant held in India and I believe there may be some bias. I however not made these claims in the talk page as I am willing to discuss with them in good faith the basis of their rejections of my content addition. I need the help of an administrator to edit the page of said contest regionally, since the contest that has been held in Ecuador since 2014, is legitimate, has a trademark registration that can be tested in the Dispute resolution noticeboard I attached evidence in the discussion section of the Miss Teen International page on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia, which must continue to offer verified, serious and impartial information.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Miss_Teen_International How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I have not removed any content from this page, I am only trying to assist in adding information and keeping the point of view neutral. I appreciate in advance that a consensus is reached taking in account the intellectual property laws.
Summary of dispute by Aayat1998Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by RodrigomoreiraPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Operation Blue_Star
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview I have added information with citations from verifiable sources into a few different sections. The edits that I make keep being reverted. I have attempted to talk to the user who is making the reversions on the talk page. The editor will first remove the content, they will only explain why they made the change after I ask in the talk page. The editor has engaged in a cycle where he will make an assertion, remove the content, I will addres the assertion and why its not sufficient, and then the editor will make up a new assertion and remove the content. Furthermore, I do not believe that the editor is acting in good faith. Although the editor seems to consistently have an issue with a specific source, they will remove all of the content even if there are multiple sources for a single sentence. The editor removes all information that I have added, even in those sections where their multiple assertions are not addressed or relevant. There is no discussion or explanation of the removal of content. My edits have also been reverted on August 19, 2020 by a new user. Both the users who are making reversions seem to be heavily involved in editing Indian wikipedia pages and I believe there may be some bias. I however not made these claims in the talk page as I am willing to discuss with them in good faith the basis of their rejections of my content addition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Operation_Blue_Star#June_1 How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I have not removed any content from this page, I am only trying to assist in adding information and keeping the point of view neutral. The entire article is littered with questionably sourced content but the editors do not seem to have an issue with information that is tilted towards the Indian government. I would like there to be a clarification that content should not be removed to promote a bias, there should be discussion of edits. Operation Blue_Star discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Ideological bias_on_Wikipedia
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview I added a description about new claims of bias on Aug 14, 2020 [4]. These changes were built upon by another user, Mukt, but were promptly reverted by Tayi_Arajakate without starting any discussion. I started a new thread on the Talk page to discuss this issue. While users questioned about the objectivity of the claims, a consensus was reached that we could describe these claims of bias. No further comments were added to the talk page. Earlier today I proceeded to add the relevant content but was hit by multiple reverts again by Tayi_Arajakate. It is only after these reverts some comments were added by Aquillion which I have sufficiently responded to. The content in question is well within the scope of discussion of the article and must be added to the page. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Ideological_bias_on_Wikipedia#Anti-Hindu_and_Anti-India_bias How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Please help resolve whether this claim of bias be discussed or not. Summary of dispute by Tayi_ArajakatePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by MuktPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by AquillionPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Ideological bias_on_Wikipedia discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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List of My Hero Academia characters
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Basic descriptions of each character have been persistently removed by Serial Number 54129 for “being WP:SYNTH and WP:OR”, despite all of the content being directly stated by the material itself, attempts to remove what little original research actually existed have been ignored, and the content being allowed per MOS:PLOT. Additionally, one character, a subsection header, and some sourced plot details have also been removed without explanation, and no attempt has been made to explain the removal of anything besides falsely claiming that it is original research. Another thing to note is that the content was removed again despite ongoing discussion on this section and on the talk page. In the article talk page in particular, there are explanations as to why the content is not original research by stating which episodes several statements come from.Unnamed anon (talk) 03:26, 26 August 2020 (UTC) How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:List of My Hero Academia characters#Sourcing for plot. Administrators DESiegel and GorillaWarfare have both participated in the discussion, and have both been of massive help, but even despite the discussion that the material itself is considered a source, and that the material is not original research, Serial Number 54129 still went for the mass removal route, without contributing to the discussion afterwards beyond an edit summary that again falsely claimed the info as original research and included an aspersion. I would also like to add that this edit war has been going on since January, and from comments from Tutelary and Lullabying, they believe that complete removal of short descriptions of each character is not necessary. Despite this, Serial Number 54129 has still persistently went for the route of mass removal without discussing why when said removals are contested, instead waiting for about a month to remove the content again, seemingly to avoid breaking the 3-revert rule. Unnamed anon (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2020 (UTC) How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Give an explanation on whether or not the content being warred back and forth constitutes as original research, and give suggestions for if and when Serial Number 54129 decides to contribute to the article talk page. Unnamed anon (talk) 03:26, 26 August 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Serial Number 54129 The essay WP:BRD does not outweigh the requirements of our most core content policies, WP:V.Despite what UA claims, they miscite GorillaWarfare, who actually told themAlthough you are claiming that User:Serial Number 54129 has refused to discuss, the article talk page history tells a different story. I note they do not cite Drmies at all, who has already told them that the material they wished to include was is fancruft, unbefitting of an encyclopedia.The removal of material (the removal of content was a justifiable edit) was supported by another admin, Xezbeth, whom QA had previously canvassed for support ([5]).As Ad Orientem notes, it is not the case here that anyone is blanking large sections of well sourced material from a long stable article/list, apparently for the sole reason that it did not interest him.There is, ultimately, a litany of experienced editors telling this editor the same thing: that extractions of plot details presented in Wikipedia's voice is synthesis of sources, and that, per WP:V, all material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable: this is the bottom line, immutable, inescapable and non-negotiable. Thus, UA, is consensus formed, albeit one which you disagree with to the point of edit warring.UA, if you ping me again you will find yourself at another noticeboard for harassment (five pings plus two message alerts in less than 12 hours is wholly inappropriate).I pity the volunteer who (tries to) deal with this case: as you have now got a flavor of UA's debating style, vis-à-vis walls of text, misrepresenting of others' positions and generally sloppy understanding of policy. (And that's notwithstanding the aspersions of trolling and forum shopping (Arbcom now—unbelievable!)) Cheers, ——Serial 02:45, 26 August 2020 (UTC) Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
List of My Hero Academia characters discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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The Fat Controller
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview User:Horseradishy insists that narrators (in this case, Ringo Starr and later Michael Angelis) should not be included as voice actors in the infobox of a TV show character, namely The Fat Controller. His rationale of "Narrators are not relevant to voice acting a specific character" makes no sense to me, nor has he provided any WikiProject guideline on this when asked repeatedly. Instead, all he can come up with is the Thomas Wikia, which is of no relevance to WP. In the TV show (Thomas & Friends, seasons 1–3), Starr and Angelis served as both the narrator and voice of all characters. Therefore, I believe they should be listed under "voiced by" in the Fat Controller's infobox. {{Infobox character}} ("Name of the individuals who voiced the character") makes no mention of omitting narrators. It's self-explanatory—that would be Starr and Angelis. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? User talk:Horseradishy#The Fat Controller / voiced by – discussion (largely one-sided) at User:Horseradishy's talk page. I am doubtful of the prospect of a more productive discussion occurring at the article talk page; he should be taking an initiative as well as me, rather than responding through edit summaries. How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Convince User:Horseradishy to either show me a WikiProject guideline which says not to include narrators as voice actors, or to back off and let my content stick. Summary of dispute by HorseradishyPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The Fat Controller discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Armorial of Europe
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview As discussed on the talk page for the article, an issue has been raised with the quality and neutrality of the article which included rather biased opinions about heraldic practices as well as imaginary versions of some of the national coats of arms used in the article. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Armorial_of_Europe#Quality_of_this_article How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? More opinions on the article's content might hopefully resolve the issue. Summary of dispute by Ping 693I first asked Ssolbergj not to change the article, nicely at first and then not so nicely. He claimed to me that it's okay to edit since it falls under the "Bold Edit" rules. However, he overhauled this without any prior discussion or approval, and as shown on that article's talk page, it was felt that the extra shields were redundant. My patience was especially thin to begin with as he has a long history of doing this; he overhauled the page on heraldry, again without any prior discussion or approval, and his version was quite frankly less informative. In my view, he's proven to be a frequent problem user who needs to be reigned in. Ping 693 (talk) 17:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by SsolbergjPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by XwejnusgozoThe dispute arose since the article included depictions of versions of coats of arms which are not in regular use, plus the fact that the article did not (and still doesn't) contain a single source. My involvement in this dispute was limited to a comment on the talk page in which I agreed with previous comments made by other editors, and the addition of "unsourced" and "neutrality" tags to the article. --Xwejnusgozo (talk) 09:48, 25 August 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by A.D.HopePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Armorial of Europe discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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The King: Eternal Monarch
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview The dispute is with User:Lizzydarcy2008, who is a fan, repeated removal of any well-source sentences stating that the series received low TV viewership. Though it is against Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section (The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies.), they want to keep the top section as a promotional only-positive paragraph, including irrelevant sentence about the production company "beating the market consensus" and "reached a record; non-captive revenue skyrocketed 646% YoY", and remove any mention of bad ratings and criticism the series received, claiming it is a "smear campaign" and that Wikipedia is a "tabloid article" for mentioning bad ratings. The editor keeps using original research and stating opinions as fact by repeating, "The TV industry in South Korea has conceded that, because of Netflix, local viewership is not anymore a key metric, so even the Ratings section may be obsolete." I tried to explain that pages should have Neutral point of view and also compromised by editing the sentences + wording many times to make it as neutral as possible after reading wikipedia:Criticism and wikipedia:CLAIM but the editor still has an issue understanding. I explained more here, also you could see in the page's history how the user is biased and removes facts they don't like. I’m trying to solve it peacefully here, but not sure if this is a case of conflict of interest, Disruption-only account, or Single-purpose account as this sleeper account did not contribute to Wikipedia for years and now only removes any criticism on the page in question and add puffery. Also, it could be sockpuppetry because one admin already caught 26 other sock puppets on the same page having the same positive-only no negative edits. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 20:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC) How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:The_King:_Eternal_Monarch#Proposed_updates_to_second_paragraph_of_page How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Explain to User:Lizzydarcy2008 that Wikipedia should not be censored and used for Advertising, marketing or public relations, and should have a Neutral point of view. Also provide feedback to help make the page as neutral as possible. Summary of dispute by Lizzydarcy2008This page skews negatively and I have been trying to make it neutral. It currently looks like Wikipedia cannot help taunting this series. Most kdramas have one paragraph before the Table of Contents. Other kdramas have second paragraphs highlighting their notable achievements. The second paragraph of this drama contains stones detractors love to throw at it - high production costs and lower-than-expected ratings. This drama has borne the brunt of the surge of popularity of Netflix in South Korea. While it was airing, nobody could fully understand why the ratings were lower than expected. Only when the same thing happened to kdramas that aired later in the year did local TV industry realize what had happened. As streaming services became more popular in South Korea, Nielsen ratings have become inadequate in measuring a kdrama’s performance. One thing to note, the Nielsen ratings of this drama are solid, not low. The reason they are said to be lower-than-expected is because of high expectations due to the big production budget and the popularity of the writer, director and actors. But since the ratings have been explained by the Netflix effect, the high production budget has become a non-issue. The stunning profit report of the production company has also justified it. Yet detractors of this drama keep pointing out its high production budget and lower-than-expected ratings. Knowing these, anybody with a sense of justice would see why highlighting the high production budget and lower-than-expected ratings in the second paragraph of the page is ignorant, unfair, malicious and deceptive. The production budget is already mentioned at the right side of the page as well as in the Production section. The ratings are in the Ratings section. Why cherry-pick them outside those sections? It is bad enough that the Ratings section contains inaccurate representation of the drama’s performance. Regarding the allegations about me being an obsessed fan and a sockpuppet, it seems, like this drama, I have to endure taunting and a smear campaign. But outing my IP address, after I forgot, one time, to log in before editing a Talk page, is going too far. It’s time to ask, does this drama have an obsessed detractor? There is more information in “Proposed updates to second paragraph of page” in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_King:_Eternal_Monarch##.Lizzydarcy2008 (talk) 04:16, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
The King: Eternal Monarch discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First Statement by ModeratorI will try to moderate this dispute. I don't know anything about the subject matter except that it appears to be a Korean TV series, and I expect that the participants will provide any background information that is needed. Read and follow the rules. If you are not sure about the rules, do not guess that something is permitted. It probably isn't. The rules are quite restrictive, and are meant to be restrictive. Comment on content, not contributors. That means do not talk about the other editors. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article, not to improve the other editors. Be civil and concise. I will stress being concise, because in most recent disputes the inability or unwillingness of the editors to follow very strict word limits has made it difficult for an outsider to know exactly what the issues are. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. I will ask the questions. If you aren't willing to let me ask the questions, you can go back to discussing the case yourselves, but we know that did not resolve the matter. Now, what the editors may do is to provide a statement consisting of up to three paragraphs, each paragraph of no more than 100 words, each paragraph stating an issue that you want changed or left as it is in the article. Detailed explanations, if in order, can wait until another round. Overly long statements will be collapsed. Back-and-forth discussion will be collapsed. Each editor should provide a statement of not more than three short paragraphs, saying what you want changed (or left unchanged). Robert McClenon (talk) 21:53, 19 August 2020 (UTC) First Statements by EditorsCherryPie94's response@Robert McClenon: Currently on the series's lead section, we have one sentence about the low TV ratings, which is preceded by positive statements. However, Lizzydarcy2008 argues that any negative statements have to be removed and that we have to keep only positive statements on the lead section. Lizzydarcy2008 also wants to add that the the production company "beating the market consensus" and "reached a record; non-captive revenue skyrocketed 646% YoY", which are not even related to the series, and they demand that we remove mention of the budget in the lead section claiming it is a negative statement that should not be there. Personally, I see that the current lead section summaries the article perfectly and needs no changes, but Lizzydarcy2008 keeps edit warring, so we need your help. On the reception section, Lizzydarcy2008 wants to remove well-sources statements (I can get over 20+ articles about it) explaining the ratings (started good, but went down). They also flipped the section's paragraphs structure to keep the criticism first, followed by the series's basic reception info, and then the praise (previously it was series's basic reception info --> praise --> criticism), saying that it shows that the series "prevailed" at the end. The section now is very unorganized to be honest, see the previous version and compare. I think the basic info such as the ratings and series's achievements should come first as that is the most important in that section. Edit: forgot to mention they also want to add that the series was ranked #1 on the daily Netflix charts in XXX countries by using flixpetrol or articles that uses flixpetrol data (deemed unreliable by Wikipedia; flixpetrol disclaimer Ranking points do not represent the actual numbers of viewings. other users also removing those number). I told them that other Netflix originals, Money Heist and Dark, are more popular per flixpetrol data but they don't use such numbers on Wikipedia as it is insignificant, unreliable, and the numbers keep changing daily on flixpetrol (this series was #25, then #19, then #9, and now #12). I already fixed a lot of issues that caused the page not to be neutral, such as wording, by editing the sentences and changing words to neutral words per [[wikipedia:CLAIM] many times. Also after reading wikipedia:Criticism, I further improved it by changing the sub-section title from "Controversy" to "Historical inaccuracy and broadcast warnings" (read discussion here), but that led to more edit warring. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 11:38, 20 August 2020 (UTC) Lizzydarcy2008's response@Robert McClenon: This page is currently negative because we are repeating negative points about the drama. I am not suggesting we remove the negative points. I am suggesting we avoid repeating them. I have been removing the repetitions. The ratings are already in the Ratings section yet we mention them three times more. Other kdramas don't mention them outside the Ratings section. Take, for example, kdrama “Melting Me Softly”. It has much lower ratings than this drama. Yet its ratings are only mentioned in the Ratings section. The production costs are mentioned three times in this page. Most kdramas don’t mention production costs at all. Those that do mention production costs put them at the summary section at the right side of the page. Take, for example, kdrama “Arthdal Chronicles”. It incurred higher production costs, yet they are only mentioned at the right side of the page. I have explained in my dispute summary why the high production costs and ratings are misleading in the first place. And yet we keep repeating them. This repetition not only makes the page negative, it also makes it sloppy. Not all kdramas have second paragraphs before the Table of Contents. Those that do, list their achievements in this paragraph. Examples are kdramas “Crash Landing On You” and “Mr. Sunshine”. Yet, we are repeating negative points that are already mentioned in other parts of the page in the second paragraph of this drama. My suggested text for the second paragraph (please see last suggestion in Talk page of drama) follows that of other kdramas - a straightforward enumeration of achievements. Regarding the title “Historical Inaccuracy and Broadcast Warnings”, “Inaccuracy” is against wp:CSECTION rule not to have titles with negative connotation. Lizzydarcy2008 (talk) 05:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC) Second Statement by ModeratorI see three areas of dispute. The first is the first paragraph of the lede section. The second is whether there should be a second paragraph in the lede section. The third has to do with the Reception section. I am asking whether that is an accurate breakdown of the issues. About the first paragraph of the lede section, does the issue have to do with non-neutral language? My third-party opinion is that the language in the first paragraph of the lede is non-neutral, but we will discuss. What is the issue about the Reception section? Do not refer to the other editor by name. We are not here to discuss editors, but to improve the article. I see references to kdrama. Does that mean Korean drama? Is that a genre that we have an article about? Are kdramas a distinctive aspect of the popular culture of South Korea? If not, but if it makes a difference to the dispute, can someone write a draft providing any general information about the distinctive features of kdrama? I am aware that I am asking you to restate very briefly matters that you may have already stated at length. I have a few reasons for wanting you to make very concise statements. If this moderation fails, we will resolve this with a Request for Comments, which will ask outside editors to state their opinions. You will need to be concise if you are trying to persuade outside editors in an RFC. Have the areas of disagreement been accurately summarized? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 21 August 2020 (UTC) Second Statements by EditorsCherryPie94Yes, those are mainly the three issues causing the dispute. I will reply to each point first: Lizzydarcy2008As far as I know, the second paragraph of the lede section is the first area of dispute. It violates the rule about this section maintaining a neutral point of view. It mentions negative information like high production budget, lower-than-expected ratings and criticisms. It also includes the term “hit” which is discouraged per MOS:INTRO. I don’t have objections to removing this paragraph altogether. The second area of dispute is the Reception section. First, the rating numbers that are already listed in the Ratings section are repeated in the Reception section. Second, the structure currently has a chronological order to have a narrative flow. The order is based on the dates of the references. Third, an article about the international success of the drama was rejected because it allegedly cited Flixpatrol as reference. The reference is a magazine published by the Korean Foundation for International Culture Exchange. The third area of dispute is the section name “Historical Inaccuracies” that has negative connotation, violating wp:CSECTION. Kdramas are featured in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_drama. They are TV series made in South Korea. They used to be mainly watched through domestic or cable TV channels. The surge of popularity of streaming services like Netflix while The King Eternal Monarch was airing exposed the inadequacy of Nielsen ratings in measuring the success of kdramas in the streaming age. That is, the Ratings section of this page is highly misleading. The drama is an international success but the Ratings section which only includes domestic TV viewership numbers does not show this. Lizzydarcy2008 (talk) 08:14, 22 August 2020 (UTC) Third Statement by ModeratorI would like each editor to list a few points as to what they want to do to improve the article. It is important to be specific about what you are asking, because we might have to resolve this with a Request for Comments, and vaguely worded RFCs are a mess, but RFCs with specific wording usually result in a yes or no consensus. My objective is to get proposed wording changes for any specific paragraphs that anyone thinks need to be reworded. Correction: I mistakenly said that I thought the first paragraph of the lede section was non-neutral. Is there any issue about the first paragraph of the lede section? Please identify any such issue as Point 1. As Point 2, will each editor please state whether their first choice about the second paragraph of the lede is to delete it, leave it as is, or rework it. Also indicate the second choice. If you want to rework it, you may provide a draft of the paragraph, but be concise about any discussion of a draft. As Point 3, you may propose a revised wording of the Reception section. As Point 4, you may make any brief suggestions about the Historical Inaccuracies, if you want anything changed. As Point 5, name any other points that you want discussed in more detail. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:53, 22 August 2020 (UTC) Third Statements by EditorsCherryPie941. I see no issue with it. Lizzydarcy20081. The only issue I see with the first paragraph is that the South Korea OTT provider Wavve which is mentioned in subsequent sections should also be introduced here like SBS and Netflix. My suggestion is to add the following: The series was also shown over the South Korean streaming service, Wavve. 2. I have no objection to removing the second paragraph. Most kdramas I checked have no second paragraph. However, if one is needed, please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lizzydarcy2008/sandbox#Second_Paragraph for my suggested text. 3. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lizzydarcy2008/sandbox#Reception for my suggested text for the Reception section. Note how much cleaner the first sentence is by not repeating the rating numbers that are already listed in the Ratings section. 4. I put Historical Inaccuracy as a sub-section under Reception section and renamed it Cultural Disputes. Since this is a fantasy drama, a section about "historical inaccuracies" does not make sense (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_King:_Eternal_Monarch#Historical_inaccuracy). "Cultural Disputes" might also sound incongruous in a fantasy drama since the writer can make up any culture she wants for her fantasy world, however, it is not as nonsensical as "historical inaccuracy". In addition, the word "inaccuracy" has a negative connotation that is discouraged for section names. I also put the advisory warnings as a separate sub-section under Reception. 5. This page skews negatively mainly because negative points are being mentioned three or four times. Compare this page with those of other kdramas and you will see the stark negativity of this page. That several edit wars had erupted over this page could mean several editors have noticed such negativity and have tried to correct the situation. Contrary to what detractors might think, editors are trying to keep this page fair to heed their sense of justice, not because they are promoters of this series. I want to make sure Wikipedia is not being used as a tool for a smear campaign against this series, just as I had been smeared with allegations of being an obsessed fan and a sock-puppet, not to mention getting a notice of edit warring discussion while I am in the middle of this dispute resolution discussion. It seems harassment of other editors, not just of this drama is the name of the game here. I would also like to talk about the use of Flixpatrol data as reference in Wikipedia. Is this the right forum to discuss this? Lizzydarcy2008 (talk) 08:21, 23 August 2020 (UTC) Fourth Statement by ModeratorWait a minute! Did User:CherryPie94 just write: "I have nothing else, just wish for edit warring to stop and for us to go back and contribute like normal without text being removed continuously."? Has Cherrypie been editing the article? What edit-warring are they asking to stop? Did you read the instructions that said not to edit the article? Do I need to revert the article to the last edit made by a non-party? Please explain. I will make a fifth statement later today, which may resume the discussion or may fail the discussion. I expected that you would actually read the rules. Maybe I need to wave them at you or something. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:35, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Fourth Statements by EditorsCherryPie941. On the 15th, I changed the sub-section title per WP:CSECTION, which was not part of the dispute to follow, and was prior to your moderation (you came of the 19th August). But that caused edit warring that we tried to disuses separately but it did not work, and I reported it here after being reverted 3 times for no reason Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive414#User: Lizzydarcy2008 reported by User:CherryPie94 (Result: ).
3. As you can see, I did not touch anything related to the dispute and I'm sorry, I really did not see Wikipedia:DRN Rule A as the noticeboard did not seem to link it. You can revert my changes if you want, but they are unrelated to the dispute and other people worked on them too (just make sure other people's work is not gone). Lizzydarcy2008@Robert McClenon: After filing this dispute resolution discussion, User:CherryPie94 updated the title of the section "Controversy" to "Historical Inaccuracies...". We edit-warred, with me undoing her changes and she undoing my changes three times, though on different days so did not violate 3RR. She made 27 other changes from the time this dispute resolution discussion was filed. She also filed an edit-warring discussion against me as well as a sock-puppetry investigation on me, outing my IP address, requiring me to have my IP address updated with my ISP. Surely there is a rule against harassment of other editors? Lizzydarcy2008 (talk)
Fifth Statement by ModeratorDRN Rule A isn't mentioned in the noticeboard header because it is an optional rule that many moderators use most of the time. There is also DRN Rule B, which permits back-and-forth discussion. If the moderator says to read the rules, it means to read the rules. Apparently I need to be more forceful in telling editors to read the rules and what the rules are. The purpose of discussion here is to improve the article, which means we should focus on the article, not on conduct. We will have a Request for Comments on whether to keep the second paragraph of the lede. We will have a Request for Comments on which of two versions of the Reception section. There are rules against harassment and against sockpuppetry. If anyone thinks that there has been harassment, they may report it at WP:ANI. That will close this discussion. Are there any other issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Fifth Statements by EditorsLizzydarcy2008What happened to the Ratings section of this page? Another change had just been made that I've just noticed now. Most kdramas that have rating data have a Ratings section. May we put this section back to be consistent with other kdramas? In the newly updated page, what used to be Ratings section had been put under Reception and renamed to Viewership with new pieces of information that are even incomplete. What is 1.76? In millions? After all my explanations about ratings, this smacks of malice and spitefulness. May I revert these changes? Contrary to what is being alleged, the edits I've made to this page are not to add puffery, but to neutralize the negativity of the page. All positive remarks are backed by sources. Note, there are no references to Flixpatrol. Information about the drama's commercial performance is based off Hallyu Issue magazine of the Korean Foundation for International Culture Exchange (KOFICE). Another thing pointed out was my suggestion to talk about the production company "beating the market consensus" and "reached a record; non-captive revenue skyrocketed 646% YoY". That was to neutralize the discussion about the production budget in the second paragraph. My final suggestion for the second paragraph was to remove mention of the production budget at all since it is already mentioned in two other sections of the page. It appears that mentioning negative points three or more times is allowed yet positive remarks are called puffery? I never suggested we remove negative points. All I've been trying to do is to stop ramming them down readers' throats by repeating them several times, especially since they are misleading in the first place. With the popularity of streaming services like Netflix, TV industry insiders in South Korea have realized that Nielsen ratings are not anymore accurate reflection of a kdrama's performance.[1] [2] Yet currently, we are ramming the Nielsen ratings down readers' throats six times in this page. Even worse-performing kdramas have not been treated this horribly. Note, these ratings are not low - they are solid, though detractors of this drama keep insisting they are low. And now Wikipedia has been made party to this injustice. Regarding the second paragraph, if there is going to be one, I have suggested this text https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lizzydarcy2008/sandbox#Second_Paragraph which is consistent with the second paragraph of other kdramas, e.g. Crash Landing On You and Mr. Sunshine, that list the kdramas' notable achievements. Regarding the "Historical Inaccuracy" section title, considering the length of the discussion about it in the Talk page of the topic, the allegation that the change was "reverted 3 times FOR NO REASON" is untrue. The problem is that my explanations about my edits to this page have fallen on deaf ears. May I summarize, for the nth time: Please compare this page with those of other kdramas. The negativity and sloppiness of this page should be obvious to any unbiased reader who has read encyclopedias. Those who firmly believe Wikipedia should not be used as a tool for smear campaign should be indignant at the repetition of negative points. Just like this drama, my name had been dragged through the mud, having been repeatedly accused of being an obsessed fan, of adding unsourced puffery, as well as of advocacy and sockpuppetry, probably to harass or intimidate me or to sully my credibility. All I have been trying to do was to preserve Wikipedia's integrity. But I will not file for harassment as I try not to be consumed by malice and spite. All I hope is that whoever comments on the proposed changes would read my explanations with open minds and decide fairly. What is the certainty of the impartiality of those who are going to give comments? Lizzydarcy2008 (talk) 08:31, 25 August 2020 (UTC) CherryPie94Thanks for all your work and sorry if I violating any rules in regard to the Dispute resolution noticeboard. Can we have the link to the Request for Comments on both the second paragraph of the lead and the reception section? CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 15:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
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Principal component analysis
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview We cannot reach a consensus on the content of the introductory paragraph How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Please see my comments in the article history and on the talk page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Principal_component_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Principal_component_analysis&action=history How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Editors who are mathematicians with a background in linear algebra may be able to resolve this dispute. I am new to WP and do not know many editors. Summary of dispute by DicklyonNote: I also appealed for help already at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Statistics. But wikiprojects tend to be in a coma, so I don't expect much. User:AP295 is a new editor who has edited almost nothing but this article. He thinks a major rewrite his way, starting with the lead paragraph, will turn it from a "travesty" into something pretty good. He doesn't have the experience of writing leads, or of collaborating with editors who push back on him. So it's hard going. I jumped in to help when pinged, and tried to incorporate his preferred approach a bit in the lead, but he has taken a nothing-but-revert approach (until I gave him a 3RR warning today). Dicklyon (talk) 22:53, 22 August 2020 (UTC) Looking back over his edits, I think the article was in much better shape before AP295's first edit in March 2020. Dicklyon (talk) 17:20, 23 August 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by GufosowaA while back, I noticed that the PCA article had a substandard entry paragraph and tried to make the lead more encyclopedic. I think it had a bad lead because 1) the lead introduces trivial concepts that have their own pages in Wikipedia, 2) The lead focuses on the methodology (how) as if an engineering textbook rather than the definition (what) as an encyclopedia should do. Everyone agrees that the article does not have a standard lead. However, AP295 puts a barrier on the attempts to fix it. The user reverted all the attempts (1(reason) 2 3 4 5) by opposing small details (single keyword) which he could simply modify. --Gufosowa (talk) 11:57, 23 August 2020 (UTC) Principal component analysis discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer's Note Filing editor has not notified users on their talk page- although they seem to be aware.Nightenbelle (talk) 14:46, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
Dicklyon and I have come to a compromise on the talk page. Unless Gufosowa has any complaints this can probably be closed. AP295 (talk) 14:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
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Who We Are and How We Got Here
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview I've tried to add a brief synopsis of what the book says in Chapter 11, which is quite controversial. But the fact that the book says it is not controversial, but indisputable. Most recently Snowded has reverted me with only very terse and conclusory comments. My talk comments have all been based on policy and guidelines, except for one instance where I cited to an essay. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Who We Are and How we Got Here How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Well, I'm hoping that you will can guide Snowded in particular, back to the guidelines, which I feel are pretty clear. I'm hoping to at least elicit a full response from him, rather than just a terse restatement of a position that I feel is wrong. Summary of dispute by Chiswick ChapPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Doug WellerPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by SnowdedIf the editor diosagrees with a clear consensus of others on the page then an RfC is the correct way forward. No idea why I am being singled out in particular. -----Snowded TALK 21:36, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Who We Are and How We Got Here discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Dimple Kapadia
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview There has been an ongoing debate about the religion of Kapadia's parents. It started on the article's FAC and never resolved. The sources are quite clear, saying her father comes from a Khoja family who embraced Hinduism while still following some of the tradition, but another user is unsure whether it makes sense, saying once it is "not based in any reality that I am aware of". Based strictly on the sources, the current version reads as: "Chunibhai was from a wealthy Ismaili Khoja family, whose members had reportedly 'embraced Hinduism' while still regarding Agha Khan as their religious mentor; Bitti was an Ismaili, too, and similarly followed Aga Khan." Shahid • Talk2me 16:31, 31 August 2020 (UTC) How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Just opine on whether the current version is acceptable in view of the sources provided. Kindly offer an alternative if it is not. Shahid • Talk2me 16:31, 31 August 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by ShahidI believe in verifiability, not truth. The sources found include:
As for her mother, Dimple's daughter Twinkle Khanna was interviewed twice ([6][7]) where it's said that her maternal grandmother (Dimple's mother) was an Ismaili. I was actually initially opposed to mentioning her parents' religion at all, because no source provides this information from the horse's mouth, but insistence on the part of the user on the FAC (including a threat that unless religion was mentioned, they would oppose the nomination) encouraged me to look for something. And I did. But the facts as they appear in sources were not to their liking. The user's main claim was that it doesn't really make sense that an Ismalili Khoja family would embrace Hinduism. I personally don't know, I think anything can happen, and I believe following the sources is the best way to go. WP:OR is the worst pitfall Wikipedians might stumble into, and despite being explained how Wikipedia works, the user kept detailing why it's not plausible ("not based in any reality that I am aware", as they put it), in complete violation of the policy. The nomination was opposed by them on this ground, and the entire FAC turned into a mess as the user started coming by every once in a while with random comments (most of which also went along the same lines - a lot of personal judgement and OR), addressing other reviewers and persuading them to oppose the nomination. The closing coordinator archived the nomination and let the user know the disruption they caused. I could have just adjusted this line according to the user's belief in the first place to spare it all, but I'd never do it - I follow sources and not personal agendas. I believe in Wikipedia, its policy and guidelines, verifiability should guide us all and not likelihood, as it is perceived in the eyes of random users that think that if they are not aware of something, it does exist. Shahid • Talk2me 16:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Fowler&fowlerPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I haven't been a part of a dispute resolution discussion in more than ten years. I am an academic. For the first eight years of my career, I taught both undergraduates and graduate students, and thereafter only graduate students, many of whom have graduate students of their own now. I have not divulged this to tip the scales of this resolution in my favor, but to give a sense of the limitations of time, and of self-possessed endurance, I can bring to such discussions (which "RL" is inadequate to explain). The problem as I see it is not whether a source was considered reliable by the Wikipedians that happened to be present for a discussion—it may well have been—but whether that alone make the content plausible. Judgments about plausibility require a feeling for the methodology of arguments (hypotheses, evidence, warrants, and conclusions) and for the use of such arguments in a field of inquiry. To a student, I can very well say, "Please read chapters X and Y of Wayne Booth and others' The Craft of Research and chapters blank and blank of Barbara D. Metcalf and Thomas R. Metcalf's A Concise History of Modern India and the student will go away to learn and later to discuss. There is never any sense of a dispute. My interlocutor and I got off the wrong foot in the last FAC, and perhaps that has rendered him sensitive to criticism from me. My recent Procedural note: Per the instructions at the top, the text above constitutes: CHARACTERS 1947 WORDS 336 SENTENCES 18. My interlocutor's text has: CHARACTERS 3075 WORDS 434 SENTENCES 23. He has added text twice, once on August 31, and again on September 3, altering his previous post and adding new text after I had made my post. (See here.) There is no indication of the two posts, no signature after the addition. Moreover, he neglected to inform me about this DRN discussion either before or after he proposed it here, either on the article talk page or on the user talk page. Had he done so before, I would have told him that I would not be a party to it. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:54, 3 September 2020 (UTC) Dimple Kapadia discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Jai Shri Ram
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview Dear admins, According to MOS:LEAD the lead should be neutral. If you just go through the format of lead you could see that it is clearly mentioned how the lead should be descriptive and neutral. Takbir being used by the infamous terrorist group as a war cry is not mentioned in its Lead. Please note that I am not writing it because I want it but because this is a particular format should be followed by your editors too. You people are human too and can have biases (No offense). I have seen one admin here is an atheist, I hope he does not have something personal against Hindus just because of conservative BJP party. One thing I want to state clearly is that I have no problem with criticizing the use in an appropriate column such as Takbir but the description should be neutral without the last lines. Thank you. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MelbourneStar#Removal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jai_Shri_Ram#MOS_Clearly_states_that_the_introduction_should_be_nuetral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Newslinger#Removal_of_my_Edit How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? First, you could please make the initiative by acknowledging the editors to follow the format of the lead which is set out by Wikipedia. It would be appreciated to put out the use of Jai Shri Ram as war cry on a particular column and not in the description, not only this hurts the value of the sentiments but also totally tear out the neutral approach that is set out by Wikipedia. Please look into it, thank you. Summary of dispute by MelbourneStar☆Parassharma1 hadn't notified me about this DRN discussion, but nevertheless: to understand MOS:LEAD as only a puffery summary of the article without mentioning significant (even negative) aspects of said article, is to wholly misunderstand MOS:LEAD. The lead, especially the phrase "war cry", is backed by consensus which Parassharma1 should be well aware of. The latter editor has consistently refused to get the point and simply doesn't like what they read, resorting to comparing this article -- to an unrelated one. This has resulted in an IPA topic ban, which they have violated repeatedly. Once Parassharma1 returns, I would encourage them that they drop the stick and conform with their topic ban. Regards, —MelbourneStar☆talk 03:59, 22 August 2020 (UTC) Jai Shri Ram discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
I've blocked the filer for a week for violating their IPA topic ban. Doug Weller talk 20:04, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
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Richard Stallman
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview We have been disputing which version of a section is better in order to be included in an article. By “better”, I mean more "encyclopedic" or "neutral" or "clearer", etc. This began as a NPOV-related dispute, but since both versions have undergone major changes, the dispute is now less about bias, and more about tenuous wording\style preferences. (both versions are ok in my opinion, but one is a little nicer to read). For context: the section deals with controversial statements made by a computer scientist. Let's call them Version "A" and Version "B". Version A can be found HERE. Version B can be found HERE. To make things easier, I'll put both of them, side-by-side in the collapsable table below:
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? talk page discussion here Two uninvolved editors defined version A as being "carefully written" and "better readable and comprehensible"; Lazer-kitty claims that version A has "noticeable NPOV issues" but refuses to provide proof, when I asked them to explain those NPOV issues, they replied: "I actually do not respond well to people making demands of me" How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Right now we need to select the overall more appropriate version to serve as the base text (or starting point) for future developments. (It has been suggested, by an uninvolved editor, that we should somehow mix aspects of both versions, merging their qualities. We probably are going to work on that after the base text is defined) Summary of dispute by Lazer-kittyI will not be participating in this discussion beyond writing this comment. The ANI that Daveout references fizzled out because he seemed to agree to take a break from editing the article and discussing it with me. If he sticks to that then there is no dispute between us and nothing to be resolved. When he says above that Richard Stallman discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
hmmm. thought i closed this discussion....Clone commando sev (talk) 23:32, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
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