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:*:Editors are advised to read the past discussions before commenting. Northern Epirus is, and I quote the article: {{tquote|is a term used mostly by [[Greeks]] to refer to those '''parts of the historical region of [[Epirus]], in the western [[Balkans]], which today are part of [[Albania]].'''}}. If Albania invaded and took over Filiates, Konitsa and Zagori, they would also become "Northern Epirus". A [[Pontic Greeks|Pontic Greek]] is still a Pontic Greek no matter if the Pontus region is controlled by Russia, Turkey or Greece. A [[Griko people|Griko]] would still be a Griko even if Calabria is a part of Italy, Spain or Independent. Same goes for [[Sfakians]], [[Maniots]], [[Greek Cypriots|Cypriotes]] and the like. "Northern Epirote" is simply a political/nationalist term used by irredentist circles. |
:*:Editors are advised to read the past discussions before commenting. Northern Epirus is, and I quote the article: {{tquote|is a term used mostly by [[Greeks]] to refer to those '''parts of the historical region of [[Epirus]], in the western [[Balkans]], which today are part of [[Albania]].'''}}. If Albania invaded and took over Filiates, Konitsa and Zagori, they would also become "Northern Epirus". A [[Pontic Greeks|Pontic Greek]] is still a Pontic Greek no matter if the Pontus region is controlled by Russia, Turkey or Greece. A [[Griko people|Griko]] would still be a Griko even if Calabria is a part of Italy, Spain or Independent. Same goes for [[Sfakians]], [[Maniots]], [[Greek Cypriots|Cypriotes]] and the like. "Northern Epirote" is simply a political/nationalist term used by irredentist circles. |
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:*:Also I will advise you to read [[Wikipedia:Civility|WP:CIVIL]]. Statements such as: . ''The attempts by Albanian editors here to dismiss the inevitable comparison to the [[Cham Albanians]] are '''risible''' at best''." can be seen as a [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|personal attack]]. Discussion should continue without ethnonational labeling of other editors. [[User:Alltan|Alltan]] ([[User talk:Alltan|talk]]) 20:06, 20 August 2022 (UTC) |
:*:Also I will advise you to read [[Wikipedia:Civility|WP:CIVIL]]. Statements such as: . ''The attempts by Albanian editors here to dismiss the inevitable comparison to the [[Cham Albanians]] are '''risible''' at best''." can be seen as a [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|personal attack]]. Discussion should continue without ethnonational labeling of other editors. [[User:Alltan|Alltan]] ([[User talk:Alltan|talk]]) 20:06, 20 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:*::I am fully aware of the Albanian perspective, and the keen desire of Albanian nationalists to erase the identity of the Northern Epirotes. Your claim that it is "simply a political/nationalist term used by irredentist circles" is patently false. It is by far the most common term used by Greeks of diverse political persuasions to describe the minority in question. Contrast that with "Chameria", which is invariably used in the context of Albanian irredentist claims against Greece. [[User:ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ|<font color="silver"><font face="Gabriola">•<small>ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ</small>•</font></font>]] 20:45, 20 August 2022 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:45, 20 August 2022
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This page should be deleted
"Northern Epirus" is a recent political concept. This page has no foundation in reality as most of these people never identified themselves as "Northern Epirotes". The page should be deleted and most of these people be simply referred to as Greeks. I will wait for other opinions. Çerçok (talk) 22:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
- I think the template should be renamed into "Greeks in Albania", that would allow most of the stuff to remain in it. Northern Epirus indeed concerns a much smaller time frame. Otherwise, most of the figures mentioned will have to be removed, except for Dule, Bollano, Zografos and the like.Alltan (talk) 22:13, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
- Under this rationale Chameria category should be limited to the period that the Camlik kaza existed as a administrative unit. There was no official usage of the term earlier and nearly 90% of the content will be vanished.Alexikoua (talk) 19:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Chameria is an ethnolinguistic region just like Zagori, Pogon, Himara etc. Chameria is not the Albanian equivalent of Northern Epirus. There is a Cham Albanian dialect, not a Northern Epirote dialect. There were families named Çami much before the era of nationalism started. On the other hand Northern Epirus is first mentioned after the era of nationalism had already started. The Albanian equivalent of Northern Epirus is the concept of "Albanian lands in Greece" ("trevat shqiptare në Greqi") which includes Chameria, Ioannina, Konitsa, Florina, Kastoria and in some cases Arta and Grevena too. That Albanian equivalent is present in schoolbooks, nationalist narratives etc.Alltan (talk) 20:31, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- I would say I agree with everything if these weren't simple facts that are not subject to agreements or disagreements. The Albanian nationalist narratives have remained present in some schoolbooks and publications, while Greek nationalist narratives have also overwhelmed Wikipedia, to the point falsifying history. I believe there needs to be a vote on the deletion of this page. Çerçok (talk) 22:28, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Çerçok, feel free to nominate the page for deletion. "Northern Epirotes" is the same as having a category called "Greater Albanians" or "Iliridans" for Albanians in North Macedonia - it just doesn't make any sense. Either the category should be renamed to Greeks in Albania or it should be deleted entirely. Botushali (talk) 03:29, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- I feel you are completely wrong, Chams is the Albanian equivalent to Northern Epirotes, Greater Albanian is the Albanian equivalent for the Greater Idea, no Northern Epirus which is a historical region. Historical terms in their modern use can also include irredentist connotations, the concept of Chamuria/Northern Epirus should be dealt together in order to secure neutrality.Alexikoua (talk) 20:22, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Its a nationalist irredentist term concocted in the 19th century to claim the area for Greece. It has a long history of being used as used such. Its last refuge is amongst nationalist Greeks and organisations like Golden Dawn and by some chauvinist individuals who keep it alive in online spaces. Hey, @Alexikoua:, on Chameria the Greek state used the term (as Tsamouria) itself for the area throughout the interwar period. Don't make dodgy claims for false cherry picked equivalences. This category violates WP:NPOV and is long overdue for its removal as its got WP:NATIONALIST all over it. To quote academic Lambros Baltsiotis (footnote 20.[1]) who keeps it short and simple: "Under the term Northern Epirus is recognized, in Greek irredentist, nationalistic bibliography and public discourse, the area of today’s Albania that includes Korçë, Gjirokastër and Himarë."Resnjari (talk) 22:37, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- Please see WP:FALSEBALANCE. The notion of Northern Epirus is strictly a political concept because it's borders are literally defined by the amount of territory Albania owns in Epirus. If Albania for whatever reason ceded Dropull and Finiq, those territories would by definition stop being a part of Northern Epirus. Alltan (talk) 21:35, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Botushali I have not nominated any categories for deletion and I am not sure I now the correct way. Since you agree, maybe you can nominate it, and I will participate in the discussion. Çerçok (talk) 22:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Çerçok I am not sure whether or not to nominate it for deletion just yet - rather, I might propose it be renamed to "Greeks in Albania" if most people are in agreement. Either way, the current title needs to go - it's simply not the same as Chameria in multiple aspects. Botushali (talk) 03:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with that. Çerçok (talk) 06:58, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Çerçok I am not sure whether or not to nominate it for deletion just yet - rather, I might propose it be renamed to "Greeks in Albania" if most people are in agreement. Either way, the current title needs to go - it's simply not the same as Chameria in multiple aspects. Botushali (talk) 03:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
- I feel you are completely wrong, Chams is the Albanian equivalent to Northern Epirotes, Greater Albanian is the Albanian equivalent for the Greater Idea, no Northern Epirus which is a historical region. Historical terms in their modern use can also include irredentist connotations, the concept of Chamuria/Northern Epirus should be dealt together in order to secure neutrality.Alexikoua (talk) 20:22, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Chameria is an ethnolinguistic region just like Zagori, Pogon, Himara etc. Chameria is not the Albanian equivalent of Northern Epirus. There is a Cham Albanian dialect, not a Northern Epirote dialect. There were families named Çami much before the era of nationalism started. On the other hand Northern Epirus is first mentioned after the era of nationalism had already started. The Albanian equivalent of Northern Epirus is the concept of "Albanian lands in Greece" ("trevat shqiptare në Greqi") which includes Chameria, Ioannina, Konitsa, Florina, Kastoria and in some cases Arta and Grevena too. That Albanian equivalent is present in schoolbooks, nationalist narratives etc.Alltan (talk) 20:31, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Under this rationale Chameria category should be limited to the period that the Camlik kaza existed as a administrative unit. There was no official usage of the term earlier and nearly 90% of the content will be vanished.Alexikoua (talk) 19:48, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose Northern Epirotes have a strong and distinctive identity, notwithstanding persistent Albanian attempts to erase it—as demonstrated on this very page. They are not merely "Epirotes", as they are distinguished by their often traumatic experience of life under Albanian rule in the modern era. Nor are they identical to "Greeks in Albania", since many have migrated to Greece and elsewhere but retain their identity as Northern Epirotes even beyond the first generation. In this respect, they are akin to other Greek subgroups from territories outside the Greek state, e.g. the Μικρασιάτες (Mikrasiátes) or Asia Minor Greeks, whose distinctive identity persists a century after their expulsion from Anatolia. Furthermore, many of those included in this category lived long before Albania had even been conceived as a nation-state. The attempts by Albanian editors here to dismiss the inevitable comparison to the Cham Albanians are risible at best; the term "Chameria" is hardly an innocuous "ethnolinguistic" term, given its strongly irredentist connotations in modern Albanian usage. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 18:50, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Editors are advised to read the past discussions before commenting. Northern Epirus is, and I quote the article:
is a term used mostly by Greeks to refer to those parts of the historical region of Epirus, in the western Balkans, which today are part of Albania.
. If Albania invaded and took over Filiates, Konitsa and Zagori, they would also become "Northern Epirus". A Pontic Greek is still a Pontic Greek no matter if the Pontus region is controlled by Russia, Turkey or Greece. A Griko would still be a Griko even if Calabria is a part of Italy, Spain or Independent. Same goes for Sfakians, Maniots, Cypriotes and the like. "Northern Epirote" is simply a political/nationalist term used by irredentist circles. - Also I will advise you to read WP:CIVIL. Statements such as: . The attempts by Albanian editors here to dismiss the inevitable comparison to the Cham Albanians are risible at best." can be seen as a personal attack. Discussion should continue without ethnonational labeling of other editors. Alltan (talk) 20:06, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- I am fully aware of the Albanian perspective, and the keen desire of Albanian nationalists to erase the identity of the Northern Epirotes. Your claim that it is "simply a political/nationalist term used by irredentist circles" is patently false. It is by far the most common term used by Greeks of diverse political persuasions to describe the minority in question. Contrast that with "Chameria", which is invariably used in the context of Albanian irredentist claims against Greece. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 20:45, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Editors are advised to read the past discussions before commenting. Northern Epirus is, and I quote the article:
- Oppose Northern Epirotes have a strong and distinctive identity, notwithstanding persistent Albanian attempts to erase it—as demonstrated on this very page. They are not merely "Epirotes", as they are distinguished by their often traumatic experience of life under Albanian rule in the modern era. Nor are they identical to "Greeks in Albania", since many have migrated to Greece and elsewhere but retain their identity as Northern Epirotes even beyond the first generation. In this respect, they are akin to other Greek subgroups from territories outside the Greek state, e.g. the Μικρασιάτες (Mikrasiátes) or Asia Minor Greeks, whose distinctive identity persists a century after their expulsion from Anatolia. Furthermore, many of those included in this category lived long before Albania had even been conceived as a nation-state. The attempts by Albanian editors here to dismiss the inevitable comparison to the Cham Albanians are risible at best; the term "Chameria" is hardly an innocuous "ethnolinguistic" term, given its strongly irredentist connotations in modern Albanian usage. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 18:50, 20 August 2022 (UTC)