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::::For instance, his collaboration with notable writers is a key aspect of his career and the bio. His work with Arthur Miller is mentioned six times and with Tennessee Williams, nine times. A photo showing them together in a pose of friendship fits well for sections relating to that, where none of others would. They may be "free," but that's all, as they do ''not'' relate to the commentary. One of the negative results of such deletions, IMO, is that we have countless biographies of actors, ie. [[Robert De Niro]], whose career goes back to the 1960s, but all we have (with one new exception) are tabloid-like recent public event candids, which merely fill space and do not support ''any'' of the text. This is totally backwards, IMO, and more care should be taken before deleting supporting images. Hope you can agree. --[[User:Light show|Light show]] ([[User talk:Light show|talk]]) 18:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC) |
::::For instance, his collaboration with notable writers is a key aspect of his career and the bio. His work with Arthur Miller is mentioned six times and with Tennessee Williams, nine times. A photo showing them together in a pose of friendship fits well for sections relating to that, where none of others would. They may be "free," but that's all, as they do ''not'' relate to the commentary. One of the negative results of such deletions, IMO, is that we have countless biographies of actors, ie. [[Robert De Niro]], whose career goes back to the 1960s, but all we have (with one new exception) are tabloid-like recent public event candids, which merely fill space and do not support ''any'' of the text. This is totally backwards, IMO, and more care should be taken before deleting supporting images. Hope you can agree. --[[User:Light show|Light show]] ([[User talk:Light show|talk]]) 18:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::Taking a look at the photo of them together is completely replaceable with text. There is nothing beyond "that they where friends" being displayed in the pic. This qualifies as replaceable with text under NFCC. Yes your images make things look pretty but fail [[WP:NFCC]] 1,3 & 8. If you disagree [[WP:NFCR]] is the third door on your left. [[User:Werieth|Werieth]] ([[User talk:Werieth|talk]]) 18:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 18:58, 3 September 2013
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![]() | Theatre C‑class High‑importance | |||||||||
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Pronunciation
Do we really need (pronounced rEEly nEEd) 'pronounced EEL-ya ka-ZAHN' at the beginning of this article? In precisely that fashion? Ask yourself if EB (pronounced EE-BEE) would ever do that. You know they wouldn't.
Hungarian
On the Sept. 28 page Kazan is listed as beeing hungarian-born. In this article he is considered a greek borh in Istanbul(Turkey). What about that?
He was definitely a Greek born in Istanbul, although at the time it was still called Constantinople. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.174.119 (talk) 05:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- He was born in Kayseri, not in Istanbul. And the last time Istanbul officially called Constantinople was 1829. You are just drooling. --85.101.169.14 (talk) 00:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Is anyone familiar with the full list of people who stood up and those who sat for Kazan's Lifetime Achievement Oscar?
So far this is what I know:
Actors/Actresses that gave standing ovation: Warren Beatty Goldie Hawn Helen Hunt Lynn Redgrave Kurt Russell Meryl Streep
Actors/Actresses who sat and clapped: Jim Carrey Steven Speilberg
Actors/Actresses who sat and did not clap: Ed Harris Nick Nolte Mare Winningham Amy Madigan
I don't know a lot about the man, but just because some one sits during an award ceremony doesn't necessarly mean they are making some sort of statement. There are a lot of times that I don't clap in a room ful of people who are clapping because "What the point" My two cents anywaySmith03 22:55, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)
This is too precious for words. You admit you don't know a lot about the man. That should immediately disqualify you from commenting here and you know it. You can't type too good either. That's another minus. But in this case to not know anything about him is to not know either how much people hated him and hated what he had done. I consider your remarks arrogant, misleading, dangerous, stupid, and inappropriate for this discussion. Do some research and come back with a little more modesty. Your comment is amongst the dumbest I've ever seen here and that's really saying something.
Well, typically at the Oscars people give standing ovations for Lifetime Achievement Awards, and people definately were making a statement by not standing and clapping.
And you're definately making severa statements with 'definately'.
>>They sat for a reason. He named names. His actions had repercussions. His actions ruined careers and lives.
[Comment removed as vandalism and dangerously inappropriate.]
The reference to John Steinbeck seems either out of place or wrong, as "The Grapes of Wrath" was written well before the Red Scare. Should this be some other book?
Nonsense. You drool. Do the research. Check the Elinor Roosevelt connection. Do the research.
Removed reference to John Wayne and Ronald Reagan, they testified in the first round of hearings where 'friendly' witnesses were called, and did not name names.
That's a whitewash if I ever saw one. Whose side are you on anyway?
Pronunciation
This has recently been changed to something that does not agree with either the "Mickey Mouse" phonetics previously given, or the Greek orthography. In other words the pronunciation has been changed rather than just converted to IPA. I don't know for a fact how Kazan (or most people) pronounced his name, but we urgently need some kind of confirmation that his name was indeed pronounced (eschewing IPA for the non-linguists) "EEL-ee-a" rather than "el-EE-ya". Otherwise it would seem safest to to remove the edit. Flapdragon 18:30, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I knew the man and he pronounced it EE-LEE-ah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.174.119 (talk) 05:35, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Inadequate Citation
The citation of a right wing blog quoting a reuters article is not adequate as a reliable source for information. There needs to be a link to the original reuters article in this entry, or the passage about a kazan critic wishing that he be shot onstage should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tsg946 (talk • contribs) 2006-12-28.
Need to improve the references on this article
Kazan is one of the top American film directors of the 20th Century, and aside from his substantial artistic contributions he is noteworthy for the controversy of his ‘naming names’ and refusing to apologize for it. The Wikipedia article on Kazan, however, leaves much to be desired and I tagged it with refimprove. The article now has only four footnotes, of which one seems to be a science-fiction site in Finland and another is the right-wing organization Media Research Center (which bills itself as "The Leader in Documenting, Exposing and Neutralizing Liberal Media Bias"). I realize it's a lot of work to cite everything to one or another of the biographies written about him, but at least let's start with the obituaries of Kazan that were published in mainstream newspapers and serious film journals. There are some other articles listed at the end of this blog entry by Orrin Judd (though of course the blog entry itself is not a good source). Currently the section of the article on his HUAC testimony is not entirely balanced: it has been written to cast Kazan in the best possible light. For example I don't understand why that section of the article needs a list of “some others who named names”. But aside from that controversy, the article is very sparse on Kazan's contributions to American film; it names some of his films and mentions that he ’elicited remarkable performances’ but doesn’t explain how Kazan’s films led an overarching change in the style of American film acting in pictures released by major studios. For example, the style of acting in 1970s films like Taxi Driver, Dog Day Afternoon, and Saturday Night Fever is completely unlike the theatrical acting style in most American films up to the 1950s, but those 1970s films are direct descendants of Kazan movies like On the Waterfront and A Face in the Crowd. --Cinematical 08:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Biased
This is highly biased towards Kazan. He certainly ruined a lot of careers and lives. Justifying his actions, he made "On the Waterfron" which I belive did not merit so many Oscars. To talk about the dangers or communism or fascism, I would just like to point out that Maccarthyism was no less dangerous.Shovon 13:22, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
- McCarthyism, unlike Stalinism, had no gulags. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.174.119 (talk) 05:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I have to agree- the degree of pro-Kazan bias in this article makes it laughable to try to call it biographical; it's a P.R. profile at best, although honestly it's barely suited for "Brady's Bits" in Parade Magazine. It's repugnant, this article is grossly inaccurate, and Kazan was a coward, a traitor and worst of all a liar.66.167.50.127 (talk) 17:46, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Get off your soapboxes, you two. You call the article biased and yet clearly YOU are the ones who are biased. Pot, kettle, black. Bowdlerized (talk) 11:12, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
the Polish massacres of World War II
What does this sentence mean? Is this referring to Soviet/German massacres in Poland or Massacres carried out by Poles? Could this be reworded and/or include an example to make it clear? - Jniech —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jniech (talk • contribs) 09:11, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
- Everything I have read on the web supports these were massacres in Poland rather than Polish massacres. However the only clear statement supporting this is properly not a relievable source “Besides, Kazan felt his testimony in front of HUAC was entirely consistent with his liberal beliefs. He had become disillusioned with Communism, and was aware of the Soviet Union's record during Stalin's Purges, as well as the massacres in Poland during World War II. He also had first-hand experience of the Party's methods during his Theatre Group days.
- Unless someone objects I plan to change it to 'the massacres in Poland during World War II'Jniech (talk) 13:01, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
THAT was ridiculous. And ill conceived.
Daniel, your bias is showing. R.E.:
(cur) (last) 06:12, 12 October 2008 Daniel (Talk | contribs) (19,591 bytes) (Undid revision 244607250 by 66.167.50.127 (talk) This is WP:OR and a WP:BLP violation to boot.)
If a sentence describing those who did not acknowledge Kazan is WP:OR and thus you deleted it, how can a sentence listing those who supposedly did acknowledge Kazan be acceptable and thus left in place by you to be frozen in place? I grant WP:OR status and agree with it, but this entire article is a mish-mash of un-cited statements and WP:OR!
Given that I stipulate WP:OR it should be moot to bring this up (since the entire subject should be going away), but I know nothing in that puff piece is going to change so: RED FLAG: There are factual errors in the (supposed) list of Kazan's supporters; people listed in this article as supporting Kazan are in fact on the record denying it.
Yes, I'm saying it: You have reverted edits and frozen an article citing WP:OR and WP:BLP and in the process have endorsed and perpetuated instances of WP:OR and WP:BLP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.60.245 (talk) 07:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
HUAC Section needs cites
Because this section deals with a sensitive area of American history, along with the film industry, it is critical that allegations about people's involvement be supported with accurate sources. Whoever wrote this should have listed their sources. A Google search for Kazan points to this article first, with this section taking up the bulk of it. IMO, because he was among our greatest American directors, he deserves our best efforts to present a fair, truthful, and balanced biography.
If no one can provide any, I might move this section to this discussion area pending citations. Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 08:52, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Moved here pending sources.Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 06:34, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
HUAC controversy
Kazan's later career was marked by his testimony before the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) during the postwar "Red Scare", in which he "named names."
Kazan had briefly been a member of the Communist Party in his youth, when working as part of a theater troupe, the Group Theater, in the 1930s. At the time, the Group Theater included several theater professionals who had Communist or other left-wing sympathies. A committed Socialist, Kazan felt betrayed by Stalin's atrocities and the ideological rigidity of Communists in general. He was personally offended when Party functionaries tried to intervene in the artistic decisions of his theater group.
At first, although Kazan agreed to testify before HUAC, and readily admitted his former membership in the Communist Party, he refused to name others who had been members. But Kazan felt increasing pressure from Hollywood studio management to cooperate with the Committee and provided the names of former Party members or those connected with Party activities, in order to preserve his career.
He knew that the names were already known to the Committee, since HUAC had already obtained copies of Communist Party membership archives, and that his testimony would be used primarily to increase media attention. After a delay, during which he asked for and received permission to release the names of former members of the Party, he was recalled to testify, and at the second examination Kazan provided testimony to the Committee.
The 'naming of names' by some in Hollywood was used as a tactic by HUAC to validate the Committee's actions and galvanize reaction against those who were merely friends or relations of the accused. One of those named as being a Party member was the wife of noted actor John Garfield, with whom Kazan had worked in the Group Theatre troupe, and who was being investigated by HUAC. HUAC failed to uncover any evidence of Communist Party membership by Garfield himself, but Garfield was nonetheless subpoenaed.
As Kazan later explained, he felt that it was in the best interest of the country and his own liberal beliefs to cooperate with HUAC's anti-communist efforts in order to counter Communists in Hollywood who were co-opting the liberal agenda. Kazan felt no allegiance to Communism, and had been disillusioned by the Soviet Union's brutal record of murder and repression during Stalin's Purges, and massacres in Poland during World War II. He still resented the Party's attempt to force their agenda on him during his theatre group days. American playwrights Lillian Hellman and Arthur Miller publicly and bitterly disagreed with Kazan's reasoning. Though Kazan testified to HUAC under threat of ostracism and blacklisting by the Hollywood studios, he was in turn shunned and ostracized by many of his former friends. Always a confirmed liberal and progressive, even socialist in his political outlook, Kazan now found himself hated by the left, yet mistrusted by many on the right.
Some have perceived elements of Kazan's own reaction to his critics in the film On the Waterfront, in which the protagonist courageously agrees to testify against his former mentor, a corrupt dockland union boss. Miller in his turn responded with the play A View from the Bridge, also set among dock-workers, in which his main character informs on two illegal immigrants based on ignoble, self-serving motivations.
Protection should be expired, but isn't
The edit log for this says the protection "expires 06:12, 12 January 2009", but it's the 14th and the article is still semiprotected. 87.113.118.98 (talk) 21:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- Nevermind, I must have been looking at a cached version of the page. 87.113.118.98 (talk) 21:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Moved: The life of a Greek-American
The section was moved here pending sources due to its controversial nature. If reinserted with sources, I think it should be balanced with other detailed book backgrounds which would need to be added with it so it isn't the only book with this kind of detailed description. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 03:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
- The life of a Greek-American
- In 1967, Kazan published The Arrangement, a novel about Evangelos Arness, an emotionally-battered middle-aged Greek-American living a double life in California as both an advertising executive, under the name 'Eddie Andreson', and a serious, muckraking magazine writer under the name 'Evans Arness'. The character's 'arrangement' of his life takes a huge toll on him, eventually leading him to a suicide attempt and a nervous breakdown. Critics saw parallels to Kazan's own life, including that the character had briefly been a member of the Communist Party prior to World War II, the character's Anatolian Greek background and the anglicisation of his birth name. Kazan disclaimed any autobiographical elements and stated that the novel was a work of fiction, nothing more or less. It served as the basis for his 1969 film of the same name.
House testimony needs balance in article
It's obviously relevant to his bio that his testimony be included. However, it looks silly to have almost twice the amount of text devoted to this topic, which took up a few hours of his "private" life, as opposed to his directing career to which he devoted forty years. I suggest we either develop his career section a lot more or abbreviate his HUAC testimony in order to keep the article balanced. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 03:51, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
Ethnicity in lead
I usually go with xxx-born American whatever, but he was born in Turkey or the Ottaman empire? His ethnicy seems to be covered in full below.--Tom 15:22, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Istanbul / Kayseri
All other site is writing Istanbul ([ http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001415/ http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001415/]), the reference only says born in "Istanbul (according to some sources Kayseri)" [1]... Enough strong is it to support the article's statement? Thanks --Beyond silence 22:34, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Tony Awards
I believe the Tony Awards are incorrect as stated. See: http://www.broadwayworld.com/tonyawardssearch.cfm
I'm a bit computer-challenged here with the link. You may have to type in "Elia Kazan" in the search box to get his awards. Sorry.
Marc Riddell -- Michael David (talk) 17:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Kayseri again
Some new user just changed the birthplace ol Elia Kazan (again - see entry "3 May 2009") from Istanbul to Kayseri, at least in the esperanto, german and english wikipedias. In the spanish text, from september 9-th this "new" birthplace is mentioned - written by an anonymous user of the net connetion "212.174.145.126". Outside wikipedia all sources I found state the birthplace Istanbul=Constantinople, only his father seems to have family roots in Kayseri. Maybe all external sources are wrong, but then it would be necessary to prove the statement that the birthplace Kayseri is right.
Translated from Esperanto: Iu novulo ĵus ŝanĝis la naskiĝlokon de Elia Kazan de Istanbulo al Kayseri, almenaŭ en la esperanta, germana kaj angla vikipedioj. En la hispana jam ekde la 7-a de septembro estas tiu "nova" naskiĝloko - enskribita fare de anonimulo de la retkonekto "212.174.145.126". Ekster vikipedio ĉiuj de mi konsultitaj fontoj indikas la naskiĝlokon Istanbulo=Konstantinopolo, nur la patro ŝajne origine devenis el Kayseri. Eble ĉiuj eksteraj fontoj eraras, sed tiam necesus pruvi ke la aserto pri naskiĝo en Kayseri ĝustas.
I'll revert the change.
ThomasPusch 19:42, 29. Apr 2010 (UTC)
Expanded material
I added some more details about his career, so feel free to check for any errors or general problems. I expect there are many. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 02:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
File:Kazan-Brando-MarieSaint-Waterfront.jpg Nominated for Deletion
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An image used in this article, File:Kazan-Brando-MarieSaint-Waterfront.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests August 2011
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
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Family vs. ancestors
Webster's dictionary defines "ancestor" as "one from whom a person is descended and who is usually more remote in the line of descent than a grandparent."
Some material relating to his father, his father's family, and Kazan's grandmother, was removed as being about his "ancestors." In a biography, discussing one's family seems relevant, especially as it became a source for his and his family's emigration, along with being the source material for his favorite film. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 20:55, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Incomplete - The Man Was a Best-Selling Author and It's Barely Mentioned!
He said he got more satisfaction out of writing his novels. This is woefully incomplete if it ignores that aspect of his life, giving his work as novelist one sentence. The Arragement spent 42 weeks on the NY Times best-seller list Top 10, 25 weeks at #1.Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 02:03, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Shirtless?!
OK, dumb question -- why is the DIRECTOR in that "Splendor" photo shirtless when all his actors are (well) dressed?! What POSSIBLE scenario triggered that?! 66.105.218.19 (talk) 06:42, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Contradictory info about friendship with Arthur Miller
In one section, the article says that Kazan's testimony with the HUAC cost him his friendship with Arthur Miller. But later on, there is a quote from Miller saying, basically, that he understands that Kazan has to do what he has to do and he holds no ill will against him. So, which is accurate? Did these HUAC testimony cause him to lose Miller's friendship or did Miller support him? 63.143.213.245 (talk) 20:45, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
Non-free images
All of the non-free images, used to support the commentary, were removed with the rationale that they were removing "excessive non-free" images. However, none of the remaining images are non-free, therefore the claim of removing "excess" is without basis. I will restore the images, removed en masse, and request discussion of specific images rather than netting and deleting them all. The article body is nearly 9,000 words long, and certainly some non-free supporting images should be allowed. --Light show (talk) 17:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thats not how non-free media usage works. Why do you think that the other files are non-free (they are marked as free) Werieth (talk) 17:24, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- Not sure what you mean. Simply saying that's not how things work, doesn't help much, since it explains nothing and is not any kind of required and requested rationale. The images were used to support the commentary, were uploaded and selected for that purpose, and carefully edited to the article. All of that takes time. It would be be more fitting to not allow any editor to stop by and willy-nilly delete supporting images without explaining or discussing. The articles are supposed to be a collaboration effort, and undoing others' edits with a button-click without making an effort to explain is not a collaboration, IMO. --Light show (talk) 17:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- Images must meet WP:NFCC. Given the large number of freely licensed images there isnt a need for the non-free images. See #1 of NFCC. Werieth (talk) 18:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- That sounds like a personal opinion, not supported by NFCC #1 guidelines on the use of non-free images. None of the "free" images directly support the critical commentary, as the deleted non-free images do, and would not replace those specific images. The free images may relate to other aspects of the article, but the non-free images directly supported the text where used and improved their encyclopedic purpose of the article.
- Images must meet WP:NFCC. Given the large number of freely licensed images there isnt a need for the non-free images. See #1 of NFCC. Werieth (talk) 18:15, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- Not sure what you mean. Simply saying that's not how things work, doesn't help much, since it explains nothing and is not any kind of required and requested rationale. The images were used to support the commentary, were uploaded and selected for that purpose, and carefully edited to the article. All of that takes time. It would be be more fitting to not allow any editor to stop by and willy-nilly delete supporting images without explaining or discussing. The articles are supposed to be a collaboration effort, and undoing others' edits with a button-click without making an effort to explain is not a collaboration, IMO. --Light show (talk) 17:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- For instance, his collaboration with notable writers is a key aspect of his career and the bio. His work with Arthur Miller is mentioned six times and with Tennessee Williams, nine times. A photo showing them together in a pose of friendship fits well for sections relating to that, where none of others would. They may be "free," but that's all, as they do not relate to the commentary. One of the negative results of such deletions, IMO, is that we have countless biographies of actors, ie. Robert De Niro, whose career goes back to the 1960s, but all we have (with one new exception) are tabloid-like recent public event candids, which merely fill space and do not support any of the text. This is totally backwards, IMO, and more care should be taken before deleting supporting images. Hope you can agree. --Light show (talk) 18:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- Taking a look at the photo of them together is completely replaceable with text. There is nothing beyond "that they where friends" being displayed in the pic. This qualifies as replaceable with text under NFCC. Yes your images make things look pretty but fail WP:NFCC 1,3 & 8. If you disagree WP:NFCR is the third door on your left. Werieth (talk) 18:58, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- For instance, his collaboration with notable writers is a key aspect of his career and the bio. His work with Arthur Miller is mentioned six times and with Tennessee Williams, nine times. A photo showing them together in a pose of friendship fits well for sections relating to that, where none of others would. They may be "free," but that's all, as they do not relate to the commentary. One of the negative results of such deletions, IMO, is that we have countless biographies of actors, ie. Robert De Niro, whose career goes back to the 1960s, but all we have (with one new exception) are tabloid-like recent public event candids, which merely fill space and do not support any of the text. This is totally backwards, IMO, and more care should be taken before deleting supporting images. Hope you can agree. --Light show (talk) 18:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)