86.10.231.219 (talk) →Removed unhelpful section: Justification sought for deletions |
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{{User|Ombudsman}} reverted the removal with an edit summary that does not address my concerns: "''rv: wholesale deletion unmerited, given that vaccines & epidemiology are inextricably intertwined; the Cochrane whitewash exemplifies extreme measures used to quash informed debate''"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Epidemiology&diff=36395723&oldid=36390573]. Vaccines and epidemiology are indeed intertwined, and epidemiology confirms that vaccines work (see the smallpox eradication by the WHO). The use of terms like "Cochrane whitewash" exactly confirms my point that this subject is much too volatile to be used as an "example" of how epidemiology cannot confirm or disprove etiology, only suggest association. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]] | [[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 21:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC) |
{{User|Ombudsman}} reverted the removal with an edit summary that does not address my concerns: "''rv: wholesale deletion unmerited, given that vaccines & epidemiology are inextricably intertwined; the Cochrane whitewash exemplifies extreme measures used to quash informed debate''"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Epidemiology&diff=36395723&oldid=36390573]. Vaccines and epidemiology are indeed intertwined, and epidemiology confirms that vaccines work (see the smallpox eradication by the WHO). The use of terms like "Cochrane whitewash" exactly confirms my point that this subject is much too volatile to be used as an "example" of how epidemiology cannot confirm or disprove etiology, only suggest association. [[User:Jfdwolff|JFW]] | [[User_talk:Jfdwolff|<small>T@lk</small>]] 21:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC) |
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:There are very good reasons for including in "Epidemiology as a causal inference" this recent example of epidemiology applied to an issue which, as you say, is considered to be resolved by it:- |
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:#Epidemiology can be used in the process of establishing a causal association but it cannot be used to establish the contrary proposition that there is no causal association at all or in any particular clinical case; |
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:#the example in point is one where epidemiology is being used to make the claim it proves there is no causal association; |
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:#no clinical evidence has been considered, as exemplified by the Cochrane review and that appears contrary to the application of the Bradford Hill criteria when assessing epidemiological evidence. |
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:#this particular example provokes the issue of the power of a study to detect an incidence which some papers claim is as low as 14 in 10,000 (although the confidence interval ran from 8 to 40 in 10,000 in that particular paper) and others like the US AAP and CDC say is 1 in 166; |
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:#it is topical, up-to-date and many readers are likely to have heard of it. |
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:Accordingly, this issue that you say is resolved and for which you say there is no dispute among epidemiologists, is a very good example indeed to exemplify several facets of epidemiology. |
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:It would be appropriate to give explicit reasons why you feel any particular example is "very unhelpful". You hold the view that epidemiology proves the MMR issue is resolved. It cannot therefore be considered a "running case" and the term "running case" is not appropriate because all scientific types of enquiry are "running cases", including all unproven theories and that accounts for a great deal of science. |
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:The "serving as a magnet" reason for any minority or mainstream view is not appropriate because Wikipedia has procedures for ensuring dialogue and reasoned discussion such that anyone who comes forward with an POV view must justify it and Wikipedia NPOV policy ensures that majority and minority views must be equally represented. The same applies to the view you are putting forward, especially where you engage in wholesale deletions. |
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:It is also confusing as progress was being made with User DavidReuben on identifying specific issues with a view to improving this Wiki Epid page. It is a shame you could not wait for dialogue to identify and then resolve any issues. Accordingly, you really do need to identify the issues and engage in dialogue before engaging is such widespread deletion. |
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:I have no doubt that a suitable compromise for all reasonable views would have prevailed in due course. Accordingly, deletion was, it would seem premature and, I hope you do not mind too much my saying, highly POV in all the circumstances. |
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:It is not a good answer to accuse people you do not agree with of being and "anti-this" or "anti-that" and, in my respectful opinion, is not a good or appropriate reason for wholesale deletion or indeed any significant deletion and certainly not before the matter has been fully discussed and the issues identified and argued. Here we really do need those issues identified and argued and you have now been asked very politely several times to identify those issues. [[User:86.10.231.219|86.10.231.219]] 22:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:28, 23 January 2006
What does Michael Savage have to do with Epidemiology? --Claudine 06:21, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I've discovered the connection. A previous version of the Michael Savage article said that in addition to being an American radio talk-show host, he was a noted epidemiologist. However, there's no longer anything about epidemiology in the Michael Savage article, so I'm going to remove the link because I don't think it's a useful resource for people seeking more information on epidemiology. --AaronW 00:45, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
By way of example, it is often cited that epidemiology has proven there is no link between MMR vaccine and regressive autism. For the United States, this would require a large randomized controlled trial...
This is dangerous nonsense. Science can never prove a proposition, only disprove propositions by empirical observation. The tone is highly NPOV and casts doubt on a major public health programme, with serious potential consequences. Blaise 20:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
- Please see below for response to this and the next comment. 81.111.172.198 22:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
MMR Vaccine and autism NPOV (Tagged for NPOV)
I'm tagging this until it is changed to meet NPOV standards.
This is the last paragraph of Epidemiology as Casual Inference section, while it could be a good example, the way it is written is slightly POV as you can see for yourself:
- By way of example, it is often cited that epidemiology has proven there is no link between MMR vaccine and regressive autism. For the United States, this would require a large randomized controlled trial, powered to detect the reported incidence of 1:160. Such a trial would establish that vaccines are (or are not) the cause of regressive Autistic Spectrum Disorders. The trial would need to be randomized ideally into three arms--a control group that receives no vaccinations, another group on the full US Centers for Disease Control immunization schedule, and a third that gets only the MMR vaccine. However, such a study has never be done and currently seems unlikely it ever will be. Accordingly, the matter would have to be established by other means, like cohort studies (where, for example, unvaccinated Amish children could serve as the control group) and/or adverse drug reaction challenge-dechallenge-rechallenge case reports.
I don't have a position on the MMR Vaccine controversey, as I don't know that much about it, but I do know that this paragraph clearly is implying that there are people who hold the position that there is no link between MMR vaccine and regressive autism and that those people are wrong. It seems to me to be clearly POV. The example serves as a good example, but I think it should be reworded so as not to be taking sides in the controversey. --Brentt 08:32, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
QUESTION Re: ==MMR Vaccine and autism NPOV (Tagged for NPOV)==
QUESTION TO Brentt RE: comments of 08:32, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Which particular words appear to stand out as making this POV?
The words "it is often cited that epidemiology has proven there is no link between MMR vaccine and regressive autism" is a statement of fact.
What this passage appears to be saying is that, yes, these people could be wrong but it is also saying they could be right. It is also saying no one will actually know from the epidemiology alone until a sufficiently powered study is carried out and no such study has been.
That does not seem POV. That seems to be factual and is illustrating the problems inherent in the use of epidemiology. It seems a topical illustration.
See http://www.jpands.org/vol10no3/miller.pdf for an explanation of some of these issues.
25 Oct 2005 at 12:21 BST
AN ADDITION:- There also seems to be conflict between Brentt who says this is slightly POV and Blaise 20:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC) who says it is "highly NPOV" claiming that "it is often cited that epidemiology has proven there is no link between MMR vaccine and regressive autism" is dangerous nonsense. 25/10/05 19:17 BST
- I think Blaise meant it is "highly POV". But anyways the problem is that it is misrepresenting the pro-MMR Vaccine side. The issue is not whether a link has been proven or disproven, in this respect the paragraph is factual: it has not been proven one way or another. The issue is whether it would be more costly, in terms of human suffering, to stop vaccination based on a possible link--considering the likely results of NOT vaccinating even if one assumes there is a link. The way the paragraph is written makes the proponents of MMR Vaccine look much more simplistic than they are. Sure, there is probably SOME people who say that the link has been "proven", but thats not really whats at issue.
- (Note: When replying to a comment it makes a talk page much easier to read, and it is customary to indent--i.e. "thread"--your reply under the comment you are replying to instead of starting a whole new section. To thread, in front of each paragraph put a "::" if its a reply to a original comment or ":::" if its a reply to a reply or "::::" if its a reply to a reply of a reply etc. Also please sign your comments and replys, wiki will automatically generate your signature wherever you place four tildes [this thingy:'~'] )--Brentt 06:27, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Thank you for the explanation. Clarity and incisiveness is needed here. The topic of this page is epidemiology. The point of this illustration is that epidemiology can never establish the issue one way or the other in individual cases, which is why if the issue is to be put to bed with finality, other evidence needs consideration.
- What I think you are saying is that even if a small number do suffer adverse reactions, it is worth the risk. That is really something to be exercised on a different page because it is the risk/benefit calculation of the MMR vaccination. Perhaps a link could be established on this page to a Wiki page setting out the risks against the benefits.
- Please also see "Causality Assessment of Suspected Adverse Drug Reactions" setting out advice to healthcare professionals on the assessment - http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Profs/adverse/causality.htm. This sets out how adverse reactions are assessed. Epidemiology is not mentioned because it is not relevant to that assessment in individual cases. Epidemiology deals with the prevalence in populations.
- To assess whether any number of cases do or do not exist, impartial independent clinical assessments are necessary, taken together with all other forms of evidence.
- If those assessments were carried out and absolutely no causal connection were established that would put an end to the matter.
- If those assessments were carried out and a causal link established officially, would parents have their children vaccinated and what would the relative risks be for vaccination against natural disease? If the risks of not having MMR against the benefits of having it are clear, then surely there would be no problem for parents? Isn't it then a 'no brainer' decision to vaccinate?
- Assuming the epidemiology indicates the relative risk is too small to be revealed by epidemiology, the critics say it is not fair to parents who believe their child has been damaged by the vaccine to fail to carry through with the further investigations and just leave the matter at epidemiology, with its inherent uncertainty.
- Why leave the matter uncertain? Why not follow through. Would that not deal with the matter completely?
- However, those issues are for a different page. This example is explaining some of the limitations of epidemiology using a topical example people can relate to. 81.111.172.198 20:01, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
- I propose to remove the POV tag from this section in no sooner than 72 hours. There appears to be cross-over of issues and the points being made suggesting this section is POV are really to do with other issues. 81.111.172.198 13:05, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Causal inference section.... I have a problem with it.
I don't know who wrote the original article here on Wiki, but I do agree that it seems as if this section has been written with an inherent hidden agenda.
To start with, giving the example of gravity vs. smoking and lung cancer is merely an illustration of the difference between a deterministic vs. a stochastic model. Taking the first google hit on a search yields the following explanation of the difference between stochastic and deterministic models: http://www.bio.vu.nl/thb/course/tb/tb/node28.html I'm not clear as to whether the comparison of the smoking-cancer association to gravity-balls falling downward is either necessary or appropriate in an article about epidemiology. If the point, however, is that only deterministic models are causal, and that stochastic models can not be, then there is a problem here.
The idea that causality can only be assessed through randomized clinical trials (RCTs) is complete and utter rubbish. No one conducted an RCT to establish the irrefutable association between smoking and lung cancer (and Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disorder, and a myriad of cardiovascular diseases). There is an entire literature available on the utility and necessity for observational study and their invaluable contributions to science.
~Felinity, Epidemiologist at large.
- You are quite right that RCTs may be great for treatments but are rubbish for causality. Multivariate analysis is a crude tool to suggest pathogenetic links, but the actual causality is in translational science. Here, the mechanism of epidemiologically indentified risk factors is applied to animal models, cell cultures or DNA. The proof from these studies confirms the veracity of the epidemiological link, or disproves it (in which the epidemiological link may have been caused by a confounder). JFW | T@lk 23:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Epidemiology as causal inference
This section is growing more and more into a piece of POV about the MMR vaccine. This is undesirable in what is supposed to be an article giving a general overview of epidemiology, not a lengthy critique of its particular applications. I would strongly recommend a resolved epidemiological issue to be taken as an example of how epidemiological findings don't always indicate cause inference and vice versa. Given that the MMR discussion is still raging heavily, this is really a very poor example as "the jury is still out". JFW | T@lk 23:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
- Which bits do you consider POV? Consideration can be given to your concerns and changes made to improve the item, if that is necessary?
- As for length and topic, I will consider if there are better locations for the discussion of Cochrane which can then be cross-referred back to this page. Do you have any suggestions of suitable locations? How about MMR vaccine?
- You are most welcome to the view that the example is not a good one and that you seek a "resolved" issue. However, that is what makes this a good example of the use of epidemiology to make a causal inference. The MMR discussion is considered to be resolved by many and resolved by use of the 5 epidemiology papers covered by the Cochrane meta-analysis. That analysis regrettably appears flawed itself for the factual reasons noted. 86.10.231.219 00:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
No, it's the anti-MMR crowd (such as the scientifically uninformed Melanie Phillips) who say that the analysis is flawed. There is little disagreement amongst epidemiologists that there is no link between MMR and autism. This section should be retitled "political pressure and epidemiology" or "social impact of epidemiology". Given the emotions surrounding the issue, it is actually a poor choice as the subject of this paragraph. Look at the issue of fibre and colon cancer. Fibre-rich foods decrease colon cancer, yet when adjusted for fibre content it is not the fibre that decreases the risk (JAMA 2006). Yet thousands of people eat raw fibre and think they are reducing the colon cancer risk. Now that is an example of "causal inference" proved wrong by more detailed studies, not your MMR/autism link which exists only in the minds of those who disapprove of the scientific process as a whole and will disagree with any paper that disproves this link. JFW | T@lk 16:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- This is a good example of ad hominem attack. It does not address the issues but makes personal attacks. It also diverts from the issues by diving off at tangents. The factual points made about errors in the Cochrane review, for example, are not addressed once. 86.10.231.219 18:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
The anti-vaccinationists are very good at personal attacks, so I'll be returning fire with fire. I didn't attack you, so why are you responding to me anyway? Why don't you stick to the issues are tell me exactly which points you are referring to? JFW | T@lk 18:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- This is all very confusing. What specific text on the Wiki Epid page are you concerned about. I cannot tell you what the issues are because you started this section on the talk page. If you do not know what the issues are that you are concerned about, I cannot reasonably be expected to be able to help you with that. Very confusing indeed. 86.10.231.219 19:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
The section I'm referring to is in the title of this thread, and your feigned ignorance does not help the discussion. At present, the "critcism of the Cochrane study" is unsourced and not a good case study on epidemiology as a whole. If it belongs anywhere, it should be in MMR vaccine with an adequate source to whoever first enunciated these criticisms.
But you have not answered a point I made to you: why are you taking offense at comments not made to you? JFW | T@lk 19:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- What are the issues in the Wiki page you want to address? The rest is not relevant to developing an encyclopedia page and is confusing. "Taking offense", "feigned ignorance" (which presumes bad faith) and suchlike is most confusing. It does not seem to take matters forward. I do hope you are not trying to provoke some kind of argument. Whilst I am sure it cannot really be the case, if it were, some might interpret it as trying to provoke a reaction so that you can accuse someone of breaking Wikipedia rules? Perhaps it might be better if you confirmed that is not the case so as to ensure no one reading your comments above gets an impression you do not intend. 86.10.231.219 21:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm only trying to get you to stick to the point: why are you not providing a cite for the "criticism" of the Cochrane study? To give methodological criticism of a peer-reviewed study on Wikipedia is original research and unverifiable if a source for this criticism is not given. JFW | T@lk 21:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
MMR stuff
Very little that has been written here on MMR is actaully useful WRT Epidemiology. --Midgley 01:23, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
- See below re relevance. There also seem to be some substantial reversions and edits without any attempt at dialogue. It also comes very close on the heels of the exchange here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mumps#Midgeley_Vandalism regarding editing practices on a talk page. Perhaps just a coincidence? 86.10.231.219 05:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
- No, Dr Midgley has an interest in epidemiology and does not like to see it misrepresented by certain elements. JFW | T@lk 16:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- And what does Dr Midgeley say in answer? This is the second example of questionable editing practices in almost as many days. 86.10.231.219 18:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- Before you sink into your familiar spiral of accusations, what edit do you find "questionable"? In what sense is he more questionable than you? JFW | T@lk 18:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- I agree it is helpful to avoid having accusation following accusation, so perhaps it would be better to address the issues. What issues specifically do you have regarding this Wiki page? 86.10.231.219 21:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- Will you now withdraw your comment that Midgley's has "questionable editing practices"? JFW | T@lk 21:44, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Suggest remove (almost) all reference to MMR issue (perhaps a small footnote at end as example of how epidemiologcal information is disputed, but first should be discussion of what it is, how it works & its history). The majority opinion (medical & health departments) is that MMR is totally unrelated to autism (accepting that there can never be proof of any negative) and thus the detractors of MMR are seen as the minority. Aside for any viewpoint on MMR itself, all may agree the media/social implications of the debate is interesting and worthy of commentary within WP. However discussion about MMR within this article is an awful example of what Epidemiology is, being a series of comments dismissing a sequence of articles accepted by others. The MMR debate has/is/will continue in the article about MMR itself, but is inappropriate within this article as it does nothing to explain what Epidemiology is or by positive example how it seeks to answer questions. If, as the anti-vaccination view point believe, there is disagreement about how epidemiology works or used to make perceived incorrect conclusions, then this should be mentioned at the end of the article as the minority viewpoint, rather than occupying a large section in the middle of the article before the epidemiology is explained. David Ruben Talk 03:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
- Difficult to achieve. As a medical doctor, you will appreciate that Cochrane is a meta-analysis of epidemiology papers so an excellent example of what can go wrong with epidemiology in relation to making causal inferences. The material deleted by User Dr Midgeley set out errors in the Cochrane paper specifically bearing on the issue of causal inference and thereby demonstrating what can go wrong. The material deleted was not viewpoint but verifiable fact and the errors can be checked independently. Perhaps it might be appropriate to include references to the six epidemiology papers Cochrane cited together with the Cochrane paper reference to enable that to be done. A prior editor introduced the Cochrane paper to the page. It is familiar, topical and something easy for readers to relate to. This editor is also not an "anti-vaccinationist". All proven effective safe treatments have their place in the risk benefit equation.
- As for majority and minority views, the NPOV policy is clear that all POVs need to be reflected, including minority ones. However, verifiable fact is not view and providing the references would enable the reader to make their own minds up, as Wikipedia's NPOV policy specifically states. Further, relegating differing viewpoints to the end of a page instead of putting them in contrast to what might be claimed to be "the majority" view fails to ensure balance or to ensure all viewpoint are appropriately reflected. It is a common approach adopted on Wikipedia by some POV warriors and others to ensure one POV (their preferred one) prevails over others. 86.10.231.219 05:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
- User Dr Midgeley appears to have very strongly held POVs on these kinds of issues but he does need to accept there are other POVs and Wikipedia policy requires all to be reflected.
- A wonderful example of a POV edit by him is "By way of example, MMR detractors have not been able to provide epidemiologic evidence of a link between MMR vaccine and regressive autism." Not only is this widening the issues beyond what this page is dealing with, he knows
- the "MMR detractors" are parents of children claimed to be harmed by MMR and who have to care for those children and a number of professionals around the world none of whom are in a position to fund readily the studies necessary;
- studies of the kind needed are beyond the funds of a relatively small number of parents on limited means and are normally carried out at the behest of governmental authorities;
- the UK authorities withdrew funds for necessary studies;
- The comment is also irrelevant to the page. In contrast, he deleted a comment adding balance which was "medical and governmental authorities have not funded the appropriate kinds of epidemiological studies needed to refute the link". In this way he ends up introducing irrelevant misleading information, removing balance and damaging the page and Wikipedia's reputation with it. This is similar behaviour to that found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mumps#Midgeley_Vandalism where question had to be asked whether exactly the same behaviour was deliberate. User Dr Midgeley has failed to answer the question on that talk page. Is there much doubt about intention here? But let me not judge. But it would seem he needs to answer the question now. 86.10.231.219 05:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
- Ok I accept that the counter points of alternative POVs need to be mentioned at the point where a majority POV has been stated. However I still would urge:
- That any discussion on the epidemiology surrounding MMR and whether it does or does not make a case for vaccination should be after Epidemiology has been fully defined. One can't critise a subject matter in a general encyclodia until one has defined the subject for the benefit of a reader who has no idea what that subject is. So perhaps mention after the description and the histoty of how its methodology developed.
- To illustrate what Epidemiology is, there should be an uncontested example where epidemiology has provided useful insights. (MMR is a 'bad' example not because epidemiology is not being cited by both sides, but that the interpretation is so contested that a full discussion of the arguments here in this article detracts from the main focus of the article to explain what Epidemiology is).
- Then, having given the reader enough to understand of what the aim of Epidemniology is, one can highlight methodology problems or where interesting disputes have arisen. I agree the issues surrounding MMR are a recent notable example of this - I just question the location within the article that it occurs (lower down, accepting not "at the bottom") and the length devoted to this (rather than a short NPOV outline of the issues raised by both POVs and a redirect for the main discussion to the MMR article itself) David Ruben Talk 02:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the sensible and considered dialogue. I will return to this when there is a moment after dealing with some other matters. This page could benefit from use of references to one of the online medical journal guides to epidemiology. I will get the references if you think that is helpful. One as I recall is certainly set at an introductory level and that may also assist in cutting things down and simplifying for readers at this level. 86.10.231.219 18:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be some ad hominem attacking going on here. It lacks any close relationship to reality. For instance
"A wonderful example of a POV edit by him is "By way of example, MMR detractors have not been able to provide epidemiologic evidence of a link between MMR vaccine and regressive autism." Not only is this widening the issues beyond what this page is dealing with, he knows"
Isn't by me.Midgley 16:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC) Shall we talk about Epidemiology, not try to use every page of the encyclopedia to assert that immunisation is bad, please.Midgley 16:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- Good idea. Why not answer the points made? The above is diversionary.
- Ad hominem is an attack on the person instead of dealing with the issues. The quote you cite (incompletely) above is from a specific example of POV editing. POV editing is one of the issues.
- You deleted NPOV text and adopted this text as your own by substituting it in your very own edit. If you do not agree with its POV, then you should not have adopted it and substituted it for the prior NPOV text.
- "It isn't by me" is little different to claiming "I didn't do it, sir" or "Its not my fault, headmaster" and is not within the range of appropriate responses;
- No one has said immunisation is bad here except you. 86.10.231.219 18:17, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Removed unhelpful section
I have removed the MMR vaccine as an example[1]. Old version is in the diff. As I have explained above, giving a "running case" as an example is very unhelpful. There are other examples about causal inference that could serve as better illustrations.
Another reason I removed the section is that it serves as a magnet for anti-vaccinationists, who have already caused NPOV disputes on numerous pages. Shall we let this article return to its usual calm? JFW | T@lk 19:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- Support; there's no reason for the "MMR controversy" to be in this article. It needs a concrete example, similar to those in the "history" section. Leaving out MMR will also help keep a NPOV. --CDN99 20:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Ombudsman (talk · contribs) reverted the removal with an edit summary that does not address my concerns: "rv: wholesale deletion unmerited, given that vaccines & epidemiology are inextricably intertwined; the Cochrane whitewash exemplifies extreme measures used to quash informed debate"[2]. Vaccines and epidemiology are indeed intertwined, and epidemiology confirms that vaccines work (see the smallpox eradication by the WHO). The use of terms like "Cochrane whitewash" exactly confirms my point that this subject is much too volatile to be used as an "example" of how epidemiology cannot confirm or disprove etiology, only suggest association. JFW | T@lk 21:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
- There are very good reasons for including in "Epidemiology as a causal inference" this recent example of epidemiology applied to an issue which, as you say, is considered to be resolved by it:-
- Epidemiology can be used in the process of establishing a causal association but it cannot be used to establish the contrary proposition that there is no causal association at all or in any particular clinical case;
- the example in point is one where epidemiology is being used to make the claim it proves there is no causal association;
- no clinical evidence has been considered, as exemplified by the Cochrane review and that appears contrary to the application of the Bradford Hill criteria when assessing epidemiological evidence.
- this particular example provokes the issue of the power of a study to detect an incidence which some papers claim is as low as 14 in 10,000 (although the confidence interval ran from 8 to 40 in 10,000 in that particular paper) and others like the US AAP and CDC say is 1 in 166;
- it is topical, up-to-date and many readers are likely to have heard of it.
- Accordingly, this issue that you say is resolved and for which you say there is no dispute among epidemiologists, is a very good example indeed to exemplify several facets of epidemiology.
- It would be appropriate to give explicit reasons why you feel any particular example is "very unhelpful". You hold the view that epidemiology proves the MMR issue is resolved. It cannot therefore be considered a "running case" and the term "running case" is not appropriate because all scientific types of enquiry are "running cases", including all unproven theories and that accounts for a great deal of science.
- The "serving as a magnet" reason for any minority or mainstream view is not appropriate because Wikipedia has procedures for ensuring dialogue and reasoned discussion such that anyone who comes forward with an POV view must justify it and Wikipedia NPOV policy ensures that majority and minority views must be equally represented. The same applies to the view you are putting forward, especially where you engage in wholesale deletions.
- It is also confusing as progress was being made with User DavidReuben on identifying specific issues with a view to improving this Wiki Epid page. It is a shame you could not wait for dialogue to identify and then resolve any issues. Accordingly, you really do need to identify the issues and engage in dialogue before engaging is such widespread deletion.
- I have no doubt that a suitable compromise for all reasonable views would have prevailed in due course. Accordingly, deletion was, it would seem premature and, I hope you do not mind too much my saying, highly POV in all the circumstances.
- It is not a good answer to accuse people you do not agree with of being and "anti-this" or "anti-that" and, in my respectful opinion, is not a good or appropriate reason for wholesale deletion or indeed any significant deletion and certainly not before the matter has been fully discussed and the issues identified and argued. Here we really do need those issues identified and argued and you have now been asked very politely several times to identify those issues. 86.10.231.219 22:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)