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I removed the paragraph added by Jeffpw. I don't think I've ever read so much nonsense. The paragraphs were overflowing with factual inaccuracies. Nice try. [[User:Korismo|Korismo]] ([[User talk:Korismo|talk]]) 05:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
I removed the paragraph added by Jeffpw. I don't think I've ever read so much nonsense. The paragraphs were overflowing with factual inaccuracies. Nice try. [[User:Korismo|Korismo]] ([[User talk:Korismo|talk]]) 05:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:Korismo, I'm reverting your edit. Until you can *prove* what facts are "nonsense" or "factually inaccurate" - specifically and with references - please leave the article alone. Alternatively, try adding '''constructive criticism''' of the article or its content rather than editors. Thanks! -- <span style="background-color: #EECCFF;">[[User:SatyrTN|SatyrTN]]<span style="font-size: smaller;"> ([[User talk:SatyrTN|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/SatyrTN|contribs]])</span></span> 06:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
:Korismo, I'm reverting your edit. Until you can *prove* what facts are "nonsense" or "factually inaccurate" - specifically and with references - please leave the article alone. Alternatively, try adding '''constructive criticism''' of the article or its content rather than editors. Thanks! -- <span style="background-color: #EECCFF;">[[User:SatyrTN|SatyrTN]]<span style="font-size: smaller;"> ([[User talk:SatyrTN|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/SatyrTN|contribs]])</span></span> 06:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:: SatyrTN, that isn't how it works. The burden of proof is on you and you know it. You can't make claims like, |
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:: Throughout his life James had relationships, platonic, romantic and sexual, with both women and men. Though he adopted a severe stance towards sodomy using English law, he was later denounced as a hypocrite for this in an unpublished manuscript by [[Jeremy Bentham]]. |
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:: I'm not going to stand for the lies you and the LGBT keep inserting. Find the sources you claim exist, or you'll be subject to continued reverts. And by the way, reverting your violations of the sourcing rule is not subject to WP:RR. I spent all last night reading the rules, so don't even try to threaten with that rubbish. [[User:Korismo|Korismo]] ([[User talk:Korismo|talk]]) 07:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Was James, King of Great Britain and Ireland?
There's a dispute at List of English monarchs, concerning this matter. Was James, King of Great Britain and Ireland or was he King of England, Scotland and Ireland? GoodDay 23:17, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
religion
As a layman from Holland, not at all up to date about the history of Great Britain, but after watching Helen Mirren's excellent performance as Queen Elisabeth I, I was wondering about the religion of King James of Scotland. His mother was a catholic and decapitated for it (to make a long story short), but how about James? The story here says he was born a catholic, but then it becomes vague. If he still was a catholic, how could he be accepted as king of England? Perhaps this matter needs some elaboration. From the main story and the discussion I gather that James may have been instrumental in bringing the churches of England and Scotland closer together, so creating the Anglican church? - Marco Bleeker www.ecocam.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.182.143.145 (talk) 00:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- Marco, Mary Queen of Scots was not executed for her Catholicism, but for her alleged role in a conspiracy against Elizabeth I, her cousin. James was brought up and educated in the reformed Church of Scotland, whose basic doctrine was Calvinism, though the form of Church government veered between Presbyterianism and Epicopacy during his lifetime. Even when they shared the same model of church government the Church of Scotland and the Church of England were quite distinct entities. There was never a British national church. James was not a Catholic and never practiced as one. There was nothing in law, though, to prevent a Catholic becoming King of England at this time. James' grandson and namesake James VII and II succeeded to the throne in 1685, his Catholicism notwithstanding. It was not until the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and the subsequent Act of Settlement of 1701 that Catholics were banned from the succession. Clio the Muse 02:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Protected
I've protected the page for 4 days in response to an edit war. Please use the talk page to hash out the dispute. If you reach consensus before the 4 days are up, you can list the page on WP:RFPP and request early un-protection. MastCell Talk 22:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Why not James I of Great Britain
It's been suggested at a discussion at List of English monarchs, that James I/VI was King of Great Britain and Ireland NOT King of England, Scotland and Ireland. Which is it? GoodDay 01:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- This question also relates to James' Stuart successors. GoodDay 01:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- He only united the two kingdoms in a personal union - legally they remained totally separate until the Acts of Union 1707. Johnbod 02:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- I thought so. Thanks for the reassurance John. GoodDay 13:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- He only united the two kingdoms in a personal union - legally they remained totally separate until the Acts of Union 1707. Johnbod 02:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Help with content
I'm new to this discussion and would like some help. Can anyone tell me where I might find proof that King James I was a homosexual? I'm looking for anything that actually speaks to the sexual relations of this man.
I haven't made up my mind, but what I have read seems to indicate that he had loving relationships with men and nothing more. If there is any direct evidence to this notion could someone please tell me where I might find this. Thank you.
67.185.246.212 07:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Since my last post, I've done a little more research and have found that King James I was not openly homosexual. There doesn't appear to be even so much of a hint on his part to having been sexual with men. All that I can find are brief mentions of his love for other men, which he called favorites. King James I did openly profess to be a Christian and frequently referenced biblical concepts. One such concept is the love for other men. In this case, the expression implies "Philia" or "Brotherly Love", it does not necessary imply eros or "sexual love". To assume that love between men implies sexual contact assumes too much.
The reference cited in this article are taken from books having the soul purpose of promoting the gay, lesbian, and tragender lifestyle. These sources are not reliable as source material and do not make up a body of historical evidence.
Anyone can write and book, insert there own opinion, and publish gossip as fact. If someone can find a reliable reference, by all means insert the reference. If not, the section on Homosexuality should be removed. 67.185.246.212 23:29, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi 67.185. James had male favourites, that much we know. The evidence does not allow us to say more. In other words, to say anything beyond that is to enter the realm of the unknown and the unknowable; it is pure speculation. No serious historian would be rash enough, in the total absence of documentary support, to claim that James was a practicing homosexual and expect to remain a serious historian. We proceed by by the sources, and only by the sources; and by this I mean primary sources. Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent. Clio the Muse 23:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- It seems a definition of sexuality is in question. One doesn't need to have sexual relations to have a sexual preference, though such preference would then be more evident. Several of the cited references are without a "sole purpose of promoting a ... lifestyle", though they don't appear to have Internet URLs. By the way, there was no overt reference to 'homosexuality' until a subheading was added by Marcus22 on November 11. —Adavidb 14:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
- In her excellent new book on the English Civil War, Diane Purkiss (Fellow and Tutor at Keble College, Oxford), explicitly states that James had a male lover. (See reference I've added in the text). I don't see any reason to either a. doubt this or b. suggest that she has reason to promote gay lifestyles. I think that this - along with many previous suggestions of the same - justify the inclusion of the subheading. Marcus22 19:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
- I have to agree, the "unverifiable" section on Homosexuality should be removed. While these anecdotes are somewhat amusing, Marcus22 is providing tabloid scholarship to article of great importance. Korismo 23:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
- Pardon me? Tabloid scholarship? Unverifiable? Diane Purkiss is an Oxford don. Do you have a personal grudge against her or something? Please go away and read WP:CIVIL. Marcus22 11:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Here, for those who cannot access the book, is the exact passage: "King James wrote textbooks to edify his children, but was less enthusiastic about spending time with them. He preferred his male companions, especially his lover and favourite George Villiers Duke of Buckingham". (I've never read a tabloid with the word 'edify' in it. Have you?) Marcus22 11:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- Marcus22, please calm down; you seem a little too impassioned. I fail to see why you should invoke Wikipedia civility policy over Korismo's perfectly reasonable statement about tabloid scholarship. I can and I have accessed this book, including the page reference in question. It makes no difference to me who Diane Purkiss is; she could be the Queen of Sheba for all that matters. As far as this particular history is concerned it contains not a single footnote or citation; not one. I dare say a lot of her statements could be supported if one were to work through the sources she calls on. But there is nothing, nothing at all, to differentiate between statements supported by evidence and pure speculation. It is, her academic credentials notwithstanding, bad history to allow fact and guesswork to proceed hand-in-hand, one might say, by failing to distinguish between one and the other. Until I see evidence-and I mean evidence from original and contemporary sources-I would have to say there is absolutely no reason to accept Purkiss' claim that Buckingham was James' lover, a direct and unqualified contention that, so far as I am aware, no other historian has ever made. Let me stress that it is for me a matter of no particular importance, or prejudice, what James' sexual preferences were. What I am concerned about is the possibility that speculation and conjecture are in the process of being turned into fact. This would seem to me to be a fairly apt description of the techniques involved in 'tabloid scholarship'. Please, please, allow yourself to look beyond the credentials; look always for the substance. That, and that only, is the route to good scholarship...and to good history. Clio the Muse 12:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've rarely read such blather. For a start, please do not patronise me with 'calm down' or lectures about history or what constitues a reliable source. I have merely added a sub-heading and a source to justify it. Then I find people accusing me of using tabloid journalism as a source. That's rather ill-mannered in my book. (Hence the reference to Civil). But, be all that as it may, I'll keep this brief: the way Wikipedia works is that we - as editors - provide sources to justify the content of an article. If or when any of you can provide a reliable 3rd party source which states that James did NOT have homosexual relations with Buckinhgam and others - then we may have something to debate. In the meantime, as I HAVE provided a reliable 3rd party source, he did have homosexual relations, the claim and the sub-heading remain. pip pip! Marcus22 12:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for that perfect insight into your personality. We clearly have nothing more to say to one another. I would, however, ask the rest of the community to take note of my remarks, and on that basis I would suggest that the heading in question is changed to an altogether more neutral, and acceptable, term, one consistent with the evidence as it stands. Clio the Muse 12:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- Please keep comments on content not other editors. Did you have a suggestion for a heading change? Maybe that's the best place to start. Benjiboi 13:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, Benjiboi. My response was determined by the slightly hysterical edge to Marcus22's remarks, not helped, perhaps, but the admittedly patronising tone I adopted above.
- Anyway, this is taking us too far from the point I was making, and which he has been unable or unwilling to grasp, which is to do with the nature and acceptability of evidence. Now, if you want to see how this kind of subject might be handled in an altogether more objective and detached manner I would refer you to the page on Frederick the Great, specifically the section headed 'Sexuality', which lays out the position in a crisp and matter of fact fashion, without leading the reader to a predetermined conclusion, though in Frederick's case the position with regard to homosexuality is altogether more convincing than with James.
- Historians are as fallible, as prone to value judgements, as any other human being. Just imagine a philosopher or a scientist insisting that a statement was true simply because, say, Wittgenstein or Einstein said it was true. Is that not a pure appeal to authority and nothing but authority? It matters not if Purkiss, or Ashley, or any authority say that James was a practicing homosexual. What matters is can they prove this; is there any substance to what they allege? Substance would be provided by contemporary documents; by diaries; by letters; by confessions; by eye-witness accounts. Otherwise it is just a matter of personal opinion, a false deduction based on James' preference for male company. What else can it be in the absence of evidence?
- Please forgive me; I have no wish to belabour this point unnecessarily, but I have lived for the past few years with the nature and acceptability of historical evidence, of the reliability of sources, both primary and secondary. I have tried to make a point here with regard to this; I have failed. As it stands James is a homosexual; not a suspected homosexual, but a practicing one with 'male lovers' simply because Wikipedia says so on the basis of pure conjecture. I've made my point; it's for others to draw their own conclusions. I think it best now if I take this page off my watch list. With best wishes. Clio the Muse 23:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- OK. I have added that. Thanks for the suggestion! Marcus22 15:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- For those of you who are not aware of other Historians making the claim that James I was homosexual, here are some other sources :- Maurice Ashley ; ‘The English Civil War’ ; p. 21 Thames & Hudson 1974 « ... it began after the accession of King Charles I to the throne at the age of twenty-five in 1625. Though his homosexual father had broken down physically and mentally in the last year of his reign... ». Marcus22 13:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- Since it seems to be a point of controversy I suggest adding that reference into the text so other's who are vetting the information have as much information of the subject as possible. Benjiboi 14:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- I have read the various arguments here, and I think there is some serious wordsmithing being done by Marcus22. Assuming someone is homosexual because they have close male friends is absolutely absurd. Are all Italians homosexual because they embrace each other with a kiss when meeting?
- I would agree with removing the entire section regarding so-called "homosexual" behavior. The implications here are absolutely absurd, without substance, and as previous people have stated -- completely unverifiable. DSuchet 03:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Actually I would side with Clio the Muse's suggestion of looking at how the subject was handled elsewhere first and see if we can learn from that. All matters of a person's homosexuality have historically been erased, suppressed and otherwise been mitigated for various reasons not the least of which is basic homopbobia which simply is a fear of something different but historically and still today people are killed for. We need to look through the filters of historical references and hopefully find some experts on the subject and see if there is a consensus. It doesn't serve anyone well to write inaccuracies and as we are probably all aware the English language has a lot to offer in word choices so finding a way to express all the concerns is possible and multiple viewpoints can easily be entertained. As Marcus22 has pointed out providing references that state that the subject of the article could not be considered gay (modern terminology) would help balance the assertions that he isn't. Benjiboi 03:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Marcus22, I have read the WP:Civility and can't see anything that I've done wrong. So, why don't you try reading it. What, decent is not allowed? Korismo 04:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- My thoughts:
Wow, I didn't think my original question would generate so much debate. For anyone new to the discussion, please read the original question/comments above (67.185.246.212).
Now to the topic at hand. The claims that James VI/I was a homosexual are based on what -- a few supposed observations, basically heresay and speculation? So why don't we examine these statements and see what we find.
1. Quote, "Buckingham became good friends with James’s wife Anne, she addressed him in affectionate letters begging him to be "always true" to her husband."
- Does anyone know a wife who would both approve and openly encourage her husband's homosexual infidelity? There is a great deal of historical evidence, i.e. letters by Ann, and this "character" does not fit with the evidence.
2. Quote, "The King was blunt and unashamed in his avowal of love for Buckingham, saying "Christ had his John, and I my George". This, referring to the young disciple John, and his Lord and mentor, Jesus Christ."
- John was called the favorite of Jesus. He was never called the lover of Jesus. They were NOT, I repeat NOT in a homosexual relationship. Homosexuality was absolutely forbidden by Mosaic law, which Jesus said he fulfilled.
Reference: Leviticus 20:13, If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.
3. Quote, "Throughout his life [105] James I had relationships with his male courtiers,[106] beginning with his older relative Esmé Stewart, 1st Duke of Lennox. The two became extremely close and it was said by an English observer that "from the time he was 14 years old and no more, that is, when the Lord Stuart came into Scotland… even then he began… to clasp some one in the embraces of his great love, above all others" and that James became "in such love with him as in the open sight of the people oftentimes he will clasp him about the neck with his arms and kiss him".
If you understood the history of England, you would understand that the people of this period were what we today call hyper-religious. Keeping this in mind, it should be mentioned that the Kings of England were not above the law. For example, King Charles I was beheaded by the parliment because he defied their rule and incited a civil war.
So the idea that James I was openly embracing, grabbing and passionately kissing a man in public is not in keeping with the history we have about the time.
All in all, I think the case is pretty flimsy at best. Moreover, gossip concealed under the guise of fact, really has the hint of an agenda. I would argue the entire section be removed from the article. - ICarriere 05:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Historians (sourced, see above) have said that James had homosexual relations. They have seen the primary sources and they have come to that conclusion. Like it or not (and certain religious elements do not - which is what this debate is really about) until sources are provided which state otherwise, ie; that James did NOT have such relations, there is nothing to debate. Wikipedia works on sources, not religious prejudice. Marcus22 11:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Let's not presume the motivations of others are religious-based or whatever their motivations. Even if they state "I'm such-and-such religion and we believe in X" we still need to simply address the content concerns and leave their belief structure for them to sort out. Let's agree to disagree on why someone edits and simply treat all as acting in good faith until they demonstrate otherwise. Marcus22 does have a valid concern that others editors have objected to the content for various reasons but not conflicting sources seem to have presented themselves. Do they exist? Does anyone thinks they do or know where to look or who to ask? Has anyone tried the wikipedia reference desk? They love a challenge! Benjiboi 12:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Why not try the archives of this talk page. See here for example. The editor who brought this article (back) up to featured status takes the same position as Clio, and that is good enough for me. I am tempted to reverted back to the article that attained featured status. Diane Purkiss's approach can be seen here:
It is plain that Purkiss's book is not meant to be serious academic history by any stretch of the term. Carcharoth 13:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)"In her introduction, couched rather queasily as an "An Epistle to the Gentle Reader", Purkiss lays out her stall. She wants, she says, to try to write the kind of history that Carlyle and Macaulay wrote in the 19th century, one grounded in "a drama of character" in which individual human beings, rather than abstract economic and political forces, make things happen. It's the kind of approach that has long seemed irredeemably amateur to academic historians, not to mention politically suspect (the people whose actions can still be recovered from 300 years ago tend to come from the top drawer). But Purkiss, an Oxford don writing from the heart of the intellectual establishment, is determined "to seduce the academy into taking this human approach back"."[1]
- Why not try the archives of this talk page. See here for example. The editor who brought this article (back) up to featured status takes the same position as Clio, and that is good enough for me. I am tempted to reverted back to the article that attained featured status. Diane Purkiss's approach can be seen here:
- In my opinion, the article should cover this issue in a sentence or two, giving the three positions that different historians have adopted: that he was actively homosexual, that he was not homosexual, and that we don't know. This used to be expressed in the article by the following note (which had a great deal of thought and reading behind it), which was removed at some time: Throughout his life James had close relationships with male courtiers, which has caused debate among historians about their nature: "The evidence of his correspondence and contemporary accounts have led some historians to conclude that the king was homosexual or bisexual. In fact, the issue is murky." Bucholz, p 208; In Basilikon Doron, James lists sodomy among crimes "ye are bound in conscience never to forgive". Sharpe, p 171; "The same pattern repeated itself with these men [Carr and Villiers] as had earlier been the case with Esmé Stuart. The evidence suggests that both had a physical liaison with their sovereign". Barroll and Cerasano (ed), p 239. See also main article: Personal relationships of James I of England.
- Beyond that, I don't think there is any need to go, since the general books I have read on James deal with the matter either briefly or not at all. Certainly I have never seen one with a chapter titled "Homosexuality". For the record, my opinion is that we do not and cannot know whether he was a practising homosexual or not.qp10qp 15:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. Johnbod 16:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Curiouser and curiouser. Some want to dismiss Purkiss as a tabloid Historian - or words to that effect. When in fact she's an Oxford don. Others want to claim that her book, because aimed at the general reader, is not serious history. What an odd claim to make. By the same strange logic, Bertrand Russell's 'The Problems of Philosophy' would be dismissed as not serious Philosophy. (It, too, is aimed at the general reader). And yet no-one in their right mind would dismiss Russell's book in such a manner.
Others have said that no other Historians make such a reference; and yet another book I quickly picked off the shelf (Maurice Ashleys) made the very same assertion. As, I might add, does another book, Downing and Millman, Civil War (albeit in less pronounced terms; p.29 "the King in his later years became besotted with (the Duke of Buckingham)". Besotted? How many of you who oppose this entry have ever been 'besotted' with another man?
Yet others claim that 'No wife would approve of her husband's homsexuality'. (I apologise if I have not quoted that exactly). This to me shows naivety in the extreme. Some wives, such as Rosemary West, approved of a good deal more in their husbands! You might look into it.
Finally, where are the sources which state that James was most definitely NOT homosexual. I have provided three now which say that he was. If we wish a debate, let's base it on sources. Not on opinions. Marcus22 22:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Oh yes, and I should add, this sentence "Throughout his youth, James was praised for his chastity, since he showed little interest in women; and after the loss of Lennox, he continued to prefer male company", referenced to yet another source (Croft), was already in the article. I did not add it. But, clearly, Purkiss is not the only Historian to hold the view that James preferred men. There are many Historians who think it. Marcus22 23:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- No, actually, that's careful wording. It doesn't justify the full section we now have that asserts unequivocally that he was a practising homosexual (which, by the way, contains serious factual inaccuracies, since Carr never threatened to expose a homosexual relationship with the king). There is nothing unusual about historians saying that James was homosexual; ignore anyone who tells you that there is (I hope the discussion has moved on from there). However, there's more to it than that, because there are also historians who say that we do not know and who argue that the case for his being an active homosexual is murky. There is also a surprising number of historians who do not mention the matter, presumably because they do not consider whether someone was gay or not to be a big deal.qp10qp 00:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- The trouble here is that Marcus is asking the wrong question. Asking "Was James homosexual?" will get you an answer of either "we don't know" or "the question makes no sense". What we should be asking is how we can help the reader understand what England was like in those days, over 400 years ago, and what sort of person James was. Helping the reader understand those times on their terms, not in terms of our concepts and ideas. At the moment, the "homosexuality" section reads like a story-within-a-story, and severely detracts from the article. Unless it can be drastically improved, I'm going to revert to what we had before, which did a much better job of balancing and reflecting the sources. Carcharoth 00:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Goodness, people, Purkiss isn't a good source because she's writing a book about the English civil war. We should look at what biographers of James say, not passing comments. john k 16:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thank-you for pointing that out. I had forgotten that. Indeed, the book is about the Civil War, not about James. Still, the more troubling point is that it is a "narrative history", not one that rigorously writes from primary sources and carries out careful analysis, but one that tries to extract the 'story' from the 'history'. My quote above (from a review) makes this clear. A previus comment pointed out a lack of references in the book itself. In other words, despite the pedigree of the author, not reliable wnough for Wikipedia. -- Carcharoth (talk) 16:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- The fact that somebody is writing a narrative ought not, on its own, make them not a reliable source. History does not have to be dry and boring to be good. I have no idea about this specific book, but that's a bad place to be starting out from. But we ought to have a simple rule that "broad statements made in passing are not reliable" - our sources about James's sexuality should explicitly discuss it and the evidence surrounding it. -- john k (talk) 17:05, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Removal of Claim
I have removed the section on homosexuality. I would like to encourage everyone to discuss the matter further, but I think we've reached a consensus of opinion.
If anyone wishes to provide additional evidence/research on this issue, please discuss prior to reposting the material on the main page. Thank you. - ICarriere 02:39, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, we don't seem to have consensus on the matter. I for one would approve of the version cited by qp10qp above over removing the material entirely. The article Personal relationships of James I of England has several references for several purported lovers. Can we at least agree to include the version that says there are questions about his sexuality? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks SatyrTN, but you are incorrect. Prior to Marcus22, there was no section on homosexuality. You are also incorrect about the primary sources. The article created on 03/07 cites the same references as provided by Marcus22.
- If James IV/I was a homosexual and there is verifiable evidence, then bring that forward. I believe there would be a place for this information if it were well document and could be validated.
- As is, we can only speculate about his sexuality. And speculation on a person's sexuality is both inappropriate and unreasonable. Moreover, such specualation does not merit it's placement in the article. - ICarriere 03:45, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- I strongly oppose removing the content so I don't see where you've gaged consensus either. Please restore the deleted content immediately until actual consensus has been reached. Benjiboi 03:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks Benjiboi, but the reason I removed it is that we have 5 people for removing the content with 3 for keeping the content. I removed the content until reliable sources can be provided.
- When you consider the controversial nature of this content, it should have never been placed prior to discussion. So we start with a clean slate and work forward. If there is evidence/research that can be provided, please post that here. I look forward to working with you on the issue. Thank you - ICarriere 03:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- ICarriere, you're totally reading WP:V wrong. You know very well that James I never said he was gay (a primary source). There are some secondary sources that you've dismissed out of hand without explaining why you think they're not reliable. So, to stick to the point at hand, could you explain why you don't believe each of these is reliable?
- Maurice Ashley ; ‘The English Civil War’ ; p. 21 Thames & Hudson 1974 ISBN 0500820023
- Aldrich, Robert (2001). Who's Who in Gay and Lesbian History: From Antiquity to World War II. Routledge. pp. pp.226–227. ISBN 0415159822. Retrieved 2007-10-23.
{{cite book}}
:|pages=
has extra text (help); Unknown parameter|coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (help) - H. Montgomery Hyde, The Love That Dared not Speak its Name; pp. 44 and 143
- Bergeron, David Moore, King James and Letters of Homoerotic Desire, University of Iowa Press, ISBN 1587292726
- Robert Bucholz, Newton Key (2004). Early Modern England, 1485-1714: A Narrative History. Blackwell Publishing. ISBN 0631213937.
- At the very least, WP:OR demands that reliably sourced information should be included in the article, not dismissed or hidden. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- ICarriere, you're totally reading WP:V wrong. You know very well that James I never said he was gay (a primary source). There are some secondary sources that you've dismissed out of hand without explaining why you think they're not reliable. So, to stick to the point at hand, could you explain why you don't believe each of these is reliable?
- I'm dying here. You are saying ICarriere misread WP:V If she misread it, then you didn't even read it buddy.
From the policy,
Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Sources should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources. All articles must adhere to Wikipedia's neutrality policy, fairly representing all majority and significant-minority viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in rough proportion to the prominence of each view.[4]
And SatyrTN, stop trying to force your agenda on the world! Korismo 05:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Korismo, please, I'm not trying to force an agenda, I'm trying to make a better encyclopedia - just like you. You're saying it's an extraordinary claim to state that scholars debate James' sexuality? Because that's all I think is required here - I'm not saying we should put pink triangles all over the article, I'm just saying we shouldn't hide the fact that his sexuality has been discussed by authoritative scholars. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 16:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- I am somewhat dismayed that a section of this article, which was referenced using reliable, verifiable sources has been arbitrarily removed from the article without there even being a single reference quoted to bring the facts into question. The quote from Jimmy Wales is clearly irrelevant, since the information that has been removed is quite clearly not random speculation. Given that wikipedia is built upon the principle of using reliable, verifiable references, I believe that the deliberate removal of a significant portion of the article based on an arguement that appears to be I don't believe it, or perhaps I don't want to believe it is entirely inappropriate and the section should be returned to the article. If or when other reliable, verifiable references can be found that contradict those that are already available in the removed content, then and only then is there a case for revising this section to reflect the contradiction between references. --AliceJMarkham 06:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- In response to some claims above, I believe only one portion of the deleted section had a 'citation needed' tag. Also, though Marcus22 added a 'Homosexuality' section header on November 11 and two source citations thereafter, he was not a contributor of the section's text. —Adavidb 07:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- With all due respect, and in agreement with Marcus22, SatyrTN, Benjiboi, and AliceJMarkham, there is no consensus, nor was there consensus, to remove the Homosexuality section. Consensus is not a vote (and even if it was, 5 to 3 is hardly consensus, assuming the count was correct) and the section should not have been removed. There are certainly changes that could make it better (as for any article), including maybe changing the section heading to something more neutral. The section was sourced and I have additional sources.
- 1. Louis Crompton. Homosexuality & Civilization. Boston: Belknap/Harvard University Press, 2003. Not only is this from one of the most respected university presses, it won an award sponsored by the Foundation for the Scientific Study of Sexuality. Compton devotes a whole section on the homosexuality of James I within the chapter on 16th & 17th century England. He said: "Amorous involvements with handsome male favorites were a recurring pattern in James's life." [Page 382] Talking about the Duke of Lennox: "James was devastated by the loss of the man who had been his family, friend, lover, and mentor..." [Page 384]. Compton sources his book, and there is more in that section on the subject of James's sexuality.
- 2. Michael B. Young. King James and the History of Homosexuality. New York: New York University Press, 2000. Another academic press book on the subject. It's true that historians have tended to be careful about discussing the homosexuality of James I, however, Young has established "beyond any reasonable doubt that James I was actively involved in sexual relations with his young clients." The review goes on to say that this can't be proven to a legal certainty [which WP is not required to do], but that the evidence is convincing.[2] I don't have the time right now to read his book, but I will. The review is promising.
- 3. For your reading pleasure, see here.
- 4. There are other potential sources, but I've run out of time, but I think that there was—and certainly is now—enough sources to show that the section should have been improved and additionally sourced, rather than deleted. BTW, there are now five editors that argue against deletion, and Adavidb pointed out that only one sentence was fact tagged.
- Please restore it. — Becksguy 13:19, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- I've restored the Homosexuality subsection and expect that unless a consensus is come to, that it be left alone except to expand it. Trying to cover up his homosexuality won't be tolerated, of course. -- ALLSTAR ECHO 13:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- It's not about trying to "cover it up". It is about due balance. Read the rest of the article. Having an entire section on James's relationships is unbalancing what was a good featured article. Read WP:DUE. Read what I've said below in "restoring original footnote". Extra material should go in Personal relationships of James I of England. Carcharoth 15:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Hopefully this edit will help resolve this. I've created a section titled "Personal relationships", moved most of the existing material to Talk:Personal relationships of James I of England and left a summary behind, based on my work at that article (mainly bringing in Anne and others for balance). The current "favourites" section should be left alone, as that is a well-written section on the politics of the court and James's favourites, not his personal relationships. Carcharoth 15:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- The section was out of proportion to the rest of the article, giving the impression that whether he was homosexual or not is an important issue for a general article. It isn't. The material was added without consensus: an anon came along, added it (pasted it from the relationships article), and said something like "I think this should be in the article; someone make it fit, please". To justify this extra section, it isn't enough to say, "Look, here is another historian who says he was a homosexual", and it isn't enough to say that this question merits sections in books about gay history. No one who knows the books would deny that some historians have said that James was gay, so it is perfectly OK to acknowledge that in the article. The question is, what proportion of the general history books about James is given over to this issue? From my reading, the answer ranges from very little to none—I've never seen a whole chapter on it (which in my opinion would be the equivalent of one of our sections) in any biography of James. The great thing about Wikipedia is that one can make a separate article on specialist matters, and we so have one on James's relationships. qp10qp 16:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it make most sense to discuss the issue in the context of individual discussions of James's favorites, and particularly of Buckingham? Obviously, James's relationship with Buckingham, whatever its precise nature may have been, is an important part of his life, and an important part of English history, and ought to be discussed in the article. In context of discussing that relationship, it would make some sense to mention the issues of sexuality. The same could be done with respect to Lennox and Somerset. I agree with qp10qp that the sexuality discussion ought to be short, at least in this article. I cannot agree with those who think that all discussion of sexuality should be removed from the article. john k 16:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- And please add my name to the lis6t of those who think the text should not have been expunged. The issue of his sexuality is notable, sourced, and not given undue weight in the article. Am I the only one seeing ownership issues here? Far from "pushing an agenda", I think those arguing for the material's insertion see other's pushing a heterosexual normative agenda here (and elsewhere on Wikipedia, too). And by the way, I reinserted the text. Jeffpw 16:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- And I've changed it back again. To quote my two edit summaries: "Favourites - split off section and rename and replace with summary from main article - text that was replaced is at Talk:Personal relationships of James I of England" and "restore my previous edit - this is about keeping the article balanced, not about his sexuality - summary here, main article at Personal relationships of James I of England - see talk page" Please talk about this, instead of throwing around accusations such as "well-intentioned but ill-conceived attempt to make the King heterosexual" - moving material to a subpage and leaving a summary behind is not an "attempt to make the King heterosexual". Read what I left behind: "James's personal relationships included relationships with his male courtiers and his marriage to Anne of Denmark". That is not saying he was heterosexual. What it is saying is "Here is a short paragraph on this. For more, see this." Standard way to approach a subtopic. See WP:SUMMARY and WP:NPOV and WP:DUE for more. -- Carcharoth (talk) 16:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- "Personal relations" is a completely weaselly, worthless phrase as a summary. How about "intimate personal relationships"? This seems indisputably true, and is a lot more informative than "personal relationships". Didn't he have personal relationships with Robert Cecil and the Earl of Morton and the Earl of Northampton? It might also be worth saying something to the effect that "the precise nature of James's relationship with his male favorites has been a subject of some debate." -- john k (talk) 16:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- And I've changed it back again. To quote my two edit summaries: "Favourites - split off section and rename and replace with summary from main article - text that was replaced is at Talk:Personal relationships of James I of England" and "restore my previous edit - this is about keeping the article balanced, not about his sexuality - summary here, main article at Personal relationships of James I of England - see talk page" Please talk about this, instead of throwing around accusations such as "well-intentioned but ill-conceived attempt to make the King heterosexual" - moving material to a subpage and leaving a summary behind is not an "attempt to make the King heterosexual". Read what I left behind: "James's personal relationships included relationships with his male courtiers and his marriage to Anne of Denmark". That is not saying he was heterosexual. What it is saying is "Here is a short paragraph on this. For more, see this." Standard way to approach a subtopic. See WP:SUMMARY and WP:NPOV and WP:DUE for more. -- Carcharoth (talk) 16:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- And please add my name to the lis6t of those who think the text should not have been expunged. The issue of his sexuality is notable, sourced, and not given undue weight in the article. Am I the only one seeing ownership issues here? Far from "pushing an agenda", I think those arguing for the material's insertion see other's pushing a heterosexual normative agenda here (and elsewhere on Wikipedia, too). And by the way, I reinserted the text. Jeffpw 16:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it make most sense to discuss the issue in the context of individual discussions of James's favorites, and particularly of Buckingham? Obviously, James's relationship with Buckingham, whatever its precise nature may have been, is an important part of his life, and an important part of English history, and ought to be discussed in the article. In context of discussing that relationship, it would make some sense to mention the issues of sexuality. The same could be done with respect to Lennox and Somerset. I agree with qp10qp that the sexuality discussion ought to be short, at least in this article. I cannot agree with those who think that all discussion of sexuality should be removed from the article. john k 16:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- This was all once done properly, John (see the footnote that Carcharoth has just added back). The article has deteriorated. Weaselly things are certainly creeping in. The minute we accept that this article needs a section on "personal relationships" or "homosexuality" we move away from good history: I don't see those sorts of chapter headings in the general books. (Nice to see you here, by the way; I feared you had left us for Citizendium.) -- qp10qp (talk) 17:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Nah, I've been gone due to lack of internet access, since I was abroad for a while. I've done a bit on Citizendium, but mostly it seems like it's reinventing the wheel. Whatever the (very serious in many respects) problems with wikipedia, it's really the only game in town. The footnote is, indeed, a perfectly good discussion of the issue. I'd personally prefer that included in the article itself, but there's really no need for more here. The personal relationships section is ridiculous. "James had personal relationships with various people?" No kidding. Most of us do. If there is to be a separate article, we should quit with the weaseling. It should be called "Sexuality of James I", and should address the issue straight on - there has certainly been enough written on the subject to warrant an article, and that's what the article is about, aside from a brief discussion of James's relationship with his children - it is not about his "personal relationships," but largely about whether he was homosexual or not. john k (talk) 07:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- This was all once done properly, John (see the footnote that Carcharoth has just added back). The article has deteriorated. Weaselly things are certainly creeping in. The minute we accept that this article needs a section on "personal relationships" or "homosexuality" we move away from good history: I don't see those sorts of chapter headings in the general books. (Nice to see you here, by the way; I feared you had left us for Citizendium.) -- qp10qp (talk) 17:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the summary of a section that is spun off supposed to summarize what is in the spin off article? This summary doesn't do that at all. What I see here is what happened to the Abraham Lincoln and James Buchanan bios, where editors were not allowed to add anything remotely relating to homosexuality and were forced to make separate articles on the subject. Sorry, but I still see WP:OWN going on, as well as an aggressive, heterocentric agenda. I won't revert you (though I wouldn't bank on the text staying in its current form for long), but I strongly disagree with how this section has been handled. -- Jeffpw (talk) 17:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- I think the consensus is that mention of homosexuality is not a problem. What is a problem for me, at least, is mentioning it one-sidedly and at too great a length.-- qp10qp (talk) 17:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
(indent reset) So the solution is to expunge it from the article completely and not even mention it in the summary of the article to which it has been relegated? It seems like some here do, indeed, consider his sexuality to be troublesome. And I don't think the material was one-sided, in that the article also discusses his relationships with women; nor do I consider the mention too long, considering the length of the total article. -- Jeffpw (talk) 17:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- It was one-sided in that it said that James had male lovers. The counter-argument that the case is not proven was not presented. It was too long in the sense that the biographies do not give equivalent space to the question. The equivalent space for this article would be a line or two. The issue is covered in the restored note on the matter (note 26 at the moment).-- qp10qp (talk) 17:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- I must not be reading your post correctly. Are you actually saying that a footnote is the appropriate amount of coverage for this article, when the question of his homosexuality (or bisexuality) has been discussed in multiple books? -- Jeffpw (talk) 17:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- It doesn't have to be in a footnote; with rewording it can be placed in the main text, if so wished. But yes, this amount of coverage is the correct amount. The biographies either say nothing about homosexuality at all or very little.-- qp10qp (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- There are currently four paragraphs about his homosexuality (roughly 7% of the article). After reading through it, I could see cutting it down a bit, as long as the pertinent info (and sources) are kept. And I should mention that the biographies may say nothing about homosexuality for censorship and/or homophobic reasons more than anything. History is sometimes a bit straight :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 23:18, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Four paragraphs and 7% is far too much. We only have a paragraph on how he became King in England. Only a paragraph on the Gunpowder plot. Only a paragraph on religious challenges. All three of those examples are important enough to have "see also" daughter articles expanding on the topic, and are without question far more relevant than the issue of his sexuality. There is absolutely no justification for having four overly long paragraphs on James's sexuality and the history of his relationships. A daughter article already exists: Personal relationships of James I of England. No-one, amidst the slow-moving edit war going on here, has bothered to address these points, except me - and I was revert with claims that I was trying to suppress the information. I am only trying to strike the right balance here. It may be hard for some people to accept, but not everyone comes to Wikipedia expecting to find extensive writings about sexuality and personal relationships in the main article about a historical figure. That might be what some people are interested in - I too find it interesting - but this article is not the place to go into detail about it. This article should be a general overview, and should deal with the important history. (see Plan moving forward below) Carcharoth (talk) 23:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Just my 2 cents, but I like the article as is. I don't think any changes need to be made. Seems like something that should exist in a daughter article, not in the main. DSuchet (talk) 23:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Plan moving forward
I suggest the following: (a) One paragraph on the topic and a link to Personal relationships of James I of England; (b) Not focusing on homosexuality, but more on his relationships and his sexuality as a whole and mentioning both sides of the argument (the 'footnote' being brought into the main text might be a good start). The minutiae of the arguments over sources should then take place at Talk:Personal relationships of James I of England. Would this be acceptable to everyone? After three days, if there are no objections to the above plan, I will implement it. Carcharoth (talk) 23:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Just my 2 cents, but I like the article as is. I don't think any changes need to be made. Seems like something that should exist in a daughter article, not in the main. DSuchet (talk) 23:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Carcharoth, I hope you don't mind me splitting your comments out, but I wanted to make sure people see it and can comment on it directly. I think it sounds like a good plan and support implementing it. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 23:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Not at all. Thanks for splitting this proposal out into its own section. Carcharoth (talk) 00:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not down with this plan at all and feel the article should be left as it were, except to expand it. I have no qualms saying that any attempts to remove the homosexual depth, will be met with reverts. Thanks. -- ALLSTAR ECHO 00:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- That is called edit warring:
Instead of edit warring, are you prepared to work with the other editors of this article to ensure that all significant views are documented proportionately? Do you have any reasons why you want to expand the section on homosexuality, instead of replacing it with a balanced and sourced assessment of the historical evidence? Carcharoth (talk) 00:54, 17 November 2007 (UTC)"Edit warring occurs when individual editors or groups of editors repeatedly revert content edits to a page or subject area. Such hostile behavior is prohibited, and considered a breach of Wikiquette. Since it is an attempt to win a content dispute through brute force, edit warring undermines the consensus-building process that underlies the ideal wiki collaborative spirit. Wikipedia works best when people with opposing opinions work together to find common ground. Neutral point of view advises that all significant views can and should be documented proportionally. An edit war is the opposite of this, with two sides each fighting to make their version the only one."
- That is called edit warring:
- SatyrTN, If you want to remove split, then why not carry the opinions of the previous conversation with it. Since you didn't I have copied DSuchet's comment over on your behalf. I'm sure you want mind SatyrTN.
- As to my opinion, I don't belive the LGBT Activists have any leg to stand on. As such, none of you have the right to dictate the direction of this article. First, you haven't brought reliable sources to the table. Second, you are asking for something that is a passing mention in the scope of history to have the weight of centuries. - ICarriere (talk) 01:10, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- ICarriere, you continue to repeat that no reliable sources have been brought forward, but I have yet to see a response to my request above for you to show why the sources that have been brought forward should be considered unreliable. Could you reply to that, please? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- And what has been done to this article is called rape. Just because you're an admin doesn't mean your way is right and final. The fact is, a disservice is being done to this article by the gross and shameful attempts at minimizing the homosexual content. You all realized that we simply won't accept it being totally removed so then you go on to "allowing" a few sentences and a link to somewhere else. That is un-acceptable. It's content censorship. It's vandalism. It's childish. It's obvious homophobia trying to be veiled based off some bullshit argument about being weighty. Sickening. -- ALLSTAR ECHO 01:07, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- With all due respect, ASE, the current article (or even the one proposed that has a little less about James' sexuality and relationships) is far more than it was a few months ago when *ALL* the sexuality content was banished to a separate article. Carcharoth is right about "fair and balanced", though that phrase almost makes me gag. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:11, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- Rape? Rape is what you both are trying to do to this article. Take your agenda somewhere else. It's not wanted, not needed and certainly not helpful. Korismo (talk) 01:17, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- Me with an agenda? No, that would be you and others who are hell bent on minimizing the content. And I don't recall asking what was wanted but thanks for the extra info. -- ALLSTAR ECHO 01:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- Rape? Rape is what you both are trying to do to this article. Take your agenda somewhere else. It's not wanted, not needed and certainly not helpful. Korismo (talk) 01:17, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- That's really helpful and directly about the content of the article. Thanks for sharing, Korismo. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- Whatever we do can we make sure we use the word homosexual (with whatever qualifiers are required) and not have all the coy pussyfooting around. It's not the 1950s. Artw (talk) 02:24, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- Now why would you be in favor of that Artw? Can you say A-G-E-N-D-A? Why don't you provide proof that he was a homosexual and then we can add that. Short of that you have no argument and only an agenda. Korismo (talk) 03:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- I would be in favour of that since if we are going to mention the theories and supoositions that King James was a homosexual then we should not use weasel words, as per WP:WEASEL. Please remember to assume good faith and be WP:CIVIL. Artw (talk) 04:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yep, I've already read it. Why don't you try giving it a read buddy. Korismo (talk) 04:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- I really have to say that the revert war going on here is childish and should stop. Several editors on both sides are approaching WP:3R but achieving nothing. Likewise, some of the behaviour here on the talk page is not productive. As long as a reasonable discussion occurs here and a consensus version is achieved in a reasonable period, I don't really think that it matters whether we start by adding the section back in then cutting it down, or by starting without the section and building it again using some text extracted from page history. The end result will be the same.
- The sooner a serious effort at building that consensus version starts, the sooner everybody will be roughly equally unhappy with the result, and the sooner we all can move on to more productive editing elsewhere. I generally agree with user:Carcharoth's proposal, but would suggest that mention of relationships and his sexual orientation would be a more reasonable compromise than the suggested relationships and his sexuality. It provides a subtle clue to what one might expect to find in the other article, and does so in a hook-like manner. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 04:39, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you, Alice. That was my problem with the article summation as originally written. As I understand it, if content is spun off, the summation should clearly state what the reader can find in the other article. As it had been written, the reader had no indication that James had sexual liaisons with men as well as women. That is when I started seeing a heterocentric agenda at work. If we can all agree that the paragraph in question clearly state this fact (Ideally in the subject heading), then I would support the content split. Jeffpw (talk) 08:48, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- In response to something said above, may I say that the issue of homosexuality has always been addressed in the article and the word "homosexual" has always been in it. The issue is about whether there should be a lot more about it or not. I have not taken part in a revert war myself, because I believe in discussion and trying to prove one's case through argument and evidence.
- I fully sympathise with the point of view of people who feel that the place of homosexuals in history should not be airbrushed over. But please beware of taking the opinion of homophobes as your source for believing that James was a practising homosexual. He was called this essentially by his enemies and those of Lennox and co. When he was a boy in Scotland, it was the English, and other enemies of Lennox, who cast aspersions on the nature of James's closeness to Lennox (who was his relation). Later in England, we have gossipy sources for the rumour. But the history of his homosexuality really set in during the English Civil War and the Commonwealth, when a series of histories were written tracing what was seen as the corruption and debauchery of the Stuarts to James. These histories are known to be biased and unreliable and were written by those with a Puritan and anti-monarchy agenda. I would just suggest that those who buy this tradition unreservedly pause to consider the biased and homophobic nature of these sources.
- Of course, homosexuality wasn't the only accusation. James was called many more things, such as a witch, a Papist, a murderer (Ruthven, Overbury), and a lecher. Personal descriptions of him allude to his smelliness, his scruffiness, and that he dribbled because his tongue was too big for his mouth. We should treat all such evidence with caution, taking into account the sources.
- Another line of scholarship about James's homosexuality comes from scholars who have interpreted certain letters or statements of James to be homosexual in nature. This is certainly very interesting, but in my opinion it is a specialist area of study and is difficult to fit comfortably into a general article. The reason is that one would have to balance it with the counter-arguments, that the passages should not be interpreted as homosexual, and this would take up too much room in the article, in my opinion.
- To those who bridle at what they see as weasel terms, like "male favourites", "preferred the company of men", and "close male friendships", I would argue that this wording is neutral. It allows the reader to either take it at face value or to read it as implying homosexuality. In fact, this type of wording is common in the general history books because, in the absence of proof that he was homosexual, it is as far as one can go, based on the evidence. And when one mentions that some scholars believe he was gay, one must simultaneously mention that others believe the case has not been proved—this is our obligation according to Wikipedia policy.
- The question of significance also comes into it, in my opinion: if James were indeed secretly a practising homosexual, would it have made any difference to his policies as king? We know that his closeness to his male favourites did affect his policies, since three of them rose to powerful positions. If he had slept with them, though, would anything be different? This was an exceptionally God-fearing and emotional man who condemned the practice of sodomy with horror in his religious writings; if, despite this, he was secretly sleeping with men, what would be the difference to history? My own opinion, which is worth nothing, of course, is that he was a homosexual or bisexual who did not sleep with other men owing to strong religious beliefs (this would explain his affection towards men). But we have to stick with what we know, even if we sense that we don't know enough. qp10qp (talk) 11:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Restoring original footnote
The footnote that qp10qp refers to above was accidentally removed by User:Smackbot with this edit on 7th September. I've notified the bot owner on the bot talk page, and I've restored the footnote. Hopefully this will adequately cover the issue. Note that the footnote was written by qp10qp, who wrote most of the article as it now stands when it passed featured article review back in April of this year. In my opinion, that is enough to cover the issue here. Wider coverage should go in Personal relationships of James I of England. Only summaries are needed here, and that is provided by the footnote I just restored, and the section titled "Favourites". Carcharoth 12:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- I would also agree with your new edits. We have a new person to the discussion who took it upon himself/herself to reverse your edits -- so I've restored the edit you made. I also added the correction that qp10qp added shortly after Allstarecho. -- Korismo (talk) 18:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- This one is good. I like the addition of the footnote. Plus, this restores us to the featured article status. I think this should be an acceptible solution for all parties. -- DSuchet (talk) 19:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't believe any compromise is needed. The Wikipedians who have made these incredible claims are not historians and can not provide reliable sources. Moreover, they refuse to be reasonable about the issue. I will support the new changes made by Carcharoth, but I don't like the idea of a footnote compromise. - -- ICarriere (talk) 19:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, in this case, I would argue slightly in the opposite direction: the homosexuality material was poorly sourced in the sense that the books were marginally about the subject or taken from inferior sources or awkward sources (King James, by Bergeron, for example, is subtitled "A Novel"). However, it is no trouble to source more effectively the opinion that James was a practising homosexual. But there is no such thing as a reliable primary source for his homosexuality (for example, take the English report about James and Lennox). There are no facts about James's homosexuality to state, only interpretations of documents and incidents. The latter are, however, admissable to a historical article to show the range of analysis.-- qp10qp (talk) 19:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Qp10qp, I know you are a historian and I respect your opinion on the subject. But what is to prevent the LGBT activists from adding a section or footnoot on homosexuality to every biography on Wikipedia? After all, people can speculate about the sexuality of others as much as they want, yet it doesn't make it true. Moreover, there is no reason that we should entertain every fanciful notion that people have by giving it reference in the article. As Clio the Muse said, "We proceed by by the sources, and only by the sources; and by this I mean primary sources. Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent." - -- ICarriere (talk) 20:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, we may use secondary sources too, and those may contain scholarly opinions that we are entitled to report. However, in an article like this, that sort of reference should be kept very brief, I think—as it is in the biographies and general histories. It's the specialist books that go into detail and into idiosyncratic theorising; and this isn't a specialist article.-- qp10qp (talk) 20:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Surely most historical figures don't have nearly the amount written about their sexuality that James has had. I will note also that here at wikipedia we proceed, in fact, not by the primary sources, but by the secondary sources. Secondary sources on James tend not to focus much on the issue, but it has certainly been written about and debated. I tend to agree with Qp10qp, broadly. john k (talk) 07:09, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Not An Acceptible Solution
I removed the paragraph added by Jeffpw. I don't think I've ever read so much nonsense. The paragraphs were overflowing with factual inaccuracies. Nice try. Korismo (talk) 05:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- Korismo, I'm reverting your edit. Until you can *prove* what facts are "nonsense" or "factually inaccurate" - specifically and with references - please leave the article alone. Alternatively, try adding constructive criticism of the article or its content rather than editors. Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 06:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- SatyrTN, that isn't how it works. The burden of proof is on you and you know it. You can't make claims like,
- Throughout his life James had relationships, platonic, romantic and sexual, with both women and men. Though he adopted a severe stance towards sodomy using English law, he was later denounced as a hypocrite for this in an unpublished manuscript by Jeremy Bentham.
- I'm not going to stand for the lies you and the LGBT keep inserting. Find the sources you claim exist, or you'll be subject to continued reverts. And by the way, reverting your violations of the sourcing rule is not subject to WP:RR. I spent all last night reading the rules, so don't even try to threaten with that rubbish. Korismo (talk) 07:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)