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Dinosaurs belongs on others, I fixed it and you guys leave it alone! <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:TsWade2|TsWade2]] ([[User talk:TsWade2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TsWade2|contribs]]) 16:58, 10 June 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
Dinosaurs belongs on others, I fixed it and you guys leave it alone! <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:TsWade2|TsWade2]] ([[User talk:TsWade2|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TsWade2|contribs]]) 16:58, 10 June 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
Revision as of 16:26, 5 August 2009
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- Wikipedia's talk pages are not meant to be discussions for fans, but only of the articles directly. See Wikipedia:Talk_page -- Dtgm 14:33, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Archives: 1
Academy Award Definition of a Feature is being longer than 40 minutes
So an animated feature is an animated film at least 41 minutes in length. The rules for the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature say that only features at least 70 minutes long can compete here. However, an animated film 60 minutes in length is still a feature, as it is not classified as a short film. I will remove the superscript 5 above each film for this reason. All of the Disney animated features are classified as features by AMPAS, it's just that some of them are not long enough features to compete in Best Animated Feature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.233.145.220 (talk) 14:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Why was 'The Wild' removed?
'The Wild' was funded and distributed by Disney. Disney provided creative support and owns the copyright. Why is it no longer listed in this article? I can understand movies that were merely distributed by Disney, like 'Tom & Jerry: The Movie', 'Vanguard' or 'Spirited Away' not being listed here, but 'The Wild' does not fit into that category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.101.76.131 (talk) 22:15, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
- Disney may have provided some minor financial support, but it was not created at all by Disney, but by another studio. That itself shows it is not a Disney movie. 74.225.104.241 (talk) 03:16, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- This may be ths case, but The Wild is listed as the disneys 45th Animated classic, and as such it should be added to the list. Also it throws of everything else as the actual number compared to those in the list then differ by 1 (Chicken little should be number 46). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.32.9 (talk) 13:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- Glad to see you bringing up an item from almost two years ago. Please see the bottom of this page for a link to a current discussion where you can raise your point. As it stands now, The Wild was not produced by Disney, just released. Therefore it would not be included on the primary listing. See also the link to the official Disney Animation site, that does not include The Wild either. SpikeJones (talk) 15:01, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
- I was bringing the point up because I have only just noticed it. As for a current discussion could you please direct me to it more spcifically I can't find it. Unless its just that the subject has not been brought up in a year. I wish to discuss this further because I believe your logic is flawed in that you assume because dinosaur appears on an internet list somewhere else it must be a classic. The disney studios list says nothing about them being classics, from what I can tell it is merly a list of films produced by them. The classiscs are films that actually state that they are classics such as the wild, disneys 45th animated classic, chicken little, disneys 46th animated classic. Dinosaur however does not say this, it is merly titles as "Pictures Presents". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.32.9 (talk) 08:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- The discussion that is currently taking place is listed in the current final item on this page, related to disney film cleanup: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disney/Animated Film Article Cleanup. Any points you raise regarding the term "classics" is best suited for that discussion. I also strongly urge you to register for a WP username and to use that whenever you post. SpikeJones (talk) 12:38, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- The confusion probably stems from Disney in some countries, like norway (see http://www.disney.no/disneydvds/disneycastle/ ) lists The WIld as 46th classic, but does not have Dinosaur in it. 88.90.215.141 (talk) 15:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
New Reason to move Dinosaur to the first list?
I just wondered what people thought about this list on Walt Disney Animation Studios new website (http://www.disneyanimation.com/aboutus/history.html). They consider Dinosaur to be part of the same canon as Snow White etc... Fitting in nicely between Fantasia 2000 and The Emperor's New Groove. So might this be reason enough to reconsider the lists? Personally I see no harm in re-evaluating the lists here... —Preceding unsigned comment added by SWatsi (talk • contribs) 12:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
- I believe that this change should occur, since on the new official website it includes the film, Dinosaur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.251.86.195 (talk) 18:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Someone added Dinosaur...
Dinosaur is not part of the canon. It threw off the whole list. Can someone remove it? 216.180.216.207 (talk) 06:17, 10 August 2008 (UTC)Neal
Please read the section above. I did try to start a conversation about this before someone changed it, but someone got to it pretty quickly. The new official website for Disney Animation Studios counts Dinosaur as part of their canon. So now I think it should be reassessed. SWatsi (talk) 10:54, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I did see you posted that AFTER I made my post. Heh. Well, I agree with you. That list is 100% the canon we all knew with the addition of Dinosaur so that means Disney decided to add it. They once said the canon was dead and all future animated movies stood on their own, but it's obvious if they added it to the list they must still follow some sort of defined outline of Disney Animated films. Dinosaur should remain on that list. I hadn't seen the website or your post before I made mine. Sorry! 216.180.216.207 (talk) 13:31, 10 August 2008 (UTC)Neal
- Ta. Well I still think there might be some against this, I don't know if it offsets any numbering of the films, so I was hesitant to change it straight away. I don't blame anyone for questioning this, because this is the first thing I looked at when I saw the list on their website...
SWatsi (talk) 16:43, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
- Well, someone removed it again. I have a feeling this will be a long-running battle. People who devoutly follow the old canon before Disney stopped 'numbering' films will argue that Dinosaur should not be there and the Disney Animation site means nothing. It doesn't make it canon, it just means WDFA produced it. People who like Dinosaur, believe in the more the merrier or think that the new site should be followed will want it on the canon. Others who don't care will argue it should not be there because that will only segue people wanting 'The Wild' added, etc. I believe it should be added. 216.180.216.207 (talk) 21:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)Neal
- Note: I went to the web site of Disney animation studios and wanted to find a way to contact them by e-mail and ask why they consider Dinosaur part of the canon, but unfortunately I found no way to do so. Georgia guy (talk) 14:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
- Well, someone removed it again. I have a feeling this will be a long-running battle. People who devoutly follow the old canon before Disney stopped 'numbering' films will argue that Dinosaur should not be there and the Disney Animation site means nothing. It doesn't make it canon, it just means WDFA produced it. People who like Dinosaur, believe in the more the merrier or think that the new site should be followed will want it on the canon. Others who don't care will argue it should not be there because that will only segue people wanting 'The Wild' added, etc. I believe it should be added. 216.180.216.207 (talk) 21:51, 10 August 2008 (UTC)Neal
- Well, they still do consider a part of the canon whether we know why or not so it needs to stay on the list. 216.180.216.207 (talk) 15:40, 14 September 2008 (UTC)Neal
- Disney has Dinosaur listed on their animation site as canon. Citation provided on page should quell naysayers. SpikeJones (talk) 02:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
- I do not believe this. This is not right. I have emailed Dave Smith, founder of the Disney archives. I am on a good talking basis with him, and I have asked him to clear up this matter. It will be resolved in the next couple days, and I will let y'all know. Thanks. SofaKing381222 (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2009 (PST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.52.102.68 (talk)
- As a reminder, unless it is something that is available in a citable format, any communication you receive could be considered WP:OR and not acceptable for overturning existing cited information. SpikeJones (talk) 14:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
For those who care, the topic has sprung up yet again, over on Template:Disney_theatrical_animated_features. SpikeJones (talk) 16:30, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- For the last time, Dinosaur is not an animation canon. This is a big lie! I'm sorry, but I don't believe it. This is the corecct order:
38 Fantasia 2000(2000) 39 The Emporer's New Groove(2000) 40 Atlantis: The Lost Empire(2001) 41 Lilo & Stitch(2002) 42 Treasure Planet(2002) 43 Brother Bear(2003) 44 Home On the Range(2004) 45 Chicken Little(2005) 46 Meet the Robinsons(2007) 47 Bolt 48 The Princess & the Frog 49 Rapunzel 50 Winnie The Pooh 51 King of the Elves 52 Jump in the Dot!
Dinosaurs belongs on others, I fixed it and you guys leave it alone! —Preceding unsigned comment added by TsWade2 (talk • contribs) 16:58, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Definition of "Canon"
Looking at the wikilinked page here for "canon" (film canon), the definition stated is Film canon is the limited group of movies that serve as the measuring stick for the highest quality in the genre of film.. "canon", by itself, is for a body of works considered genuine or official within a fictional universe, such as the "Star Wars universe". I think we can all agree that there is no singular Disney film "universe" that the "canon" term would apply to, so we are left with the "film canon" usage. We could go in 2 different angles with this: (a) that the Disney Animated Canon was a specific historical set of identified films that are a subset of all films worked on by WDFA/WDAS, with no additional films being added to the list; or (b) that the Disney Animated Canon is simply a complete list of all films worked on by WDFA/WDAS. As stated earlier, Disney's stance is that there no longer is a "Disney Film Canon" as it appears they are going by the "b" definition shown here. Thoughts? SpikeJones (talk) 15:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
- Agree Canon for random titles of movies are bit bold statement here. DoctorHver (talk) 14:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Studio Ghibli
Can we put the Disney release dates against the those films as well? They were all released by others before their first Disney release so it's not quite accurate and consistant with other films on this page. SWatsi (talk) 17:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- The header of that table is currently incorrect anyway. For purposes of this page (in the English WP), the date should be release date in english-speaking countries. Would doing that fix your question? SpikeJones (talk) 18:33, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Are you saying the date's should be the first Disney theatrical release? That would make more sense for the purpose of the article. Or the very first English-language release? But yes it doesn't make sense to me to list a non-Disney release date on a specific Disney page. For example the UK release date for Valiant isn't listed because it wasn't released by Disney in the UK. Even though that was the first release. I imagine the same for Pokemon too.
Thinking about it. Not sure but not all of those were released theatrically - at least by Disney - but rather on DVD? I've looked on the pages for Nausicaa and Totoro and they suggest only Disney DVD. Obviously at somepoint they started to be released to the cinemas. Can anyone confirm\correct on this? SWatsi (talk) 20:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)- The dates should be the first theatrical release date by Disney, as this is a "disney" page. Ideally, release dates in english-speaking countries. More ideally, the dates listed here MUST match the same dates listed on each linked film's page. For example, Pom Poko's page does not list a release date at all, most likely because it was not released theatrically in an english-language country (a requirement for release dates in English WP, per film MOS). Digging deeper, the film was released by Disney on DVD in english countries only. However, it was released theatrically by Disney in France... which would not qualify as an english-language release. It would on FR.WIKIPEDIA.ORG, however. Me thinks this entire page needs to be reviewed and revamped. (it should be noted that on the Disney Theatrical Releases page, there are entries/footnotes for films that were released theatrically overseas... so those may need to come off that list specifically to meet the same criteria put out here. SpikeJones (talk) 03:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- I've removed all entries that haven't had a theatrical release by Disney, or where the release date can't be traced back. Can anyone confirm if Laputa had a theatrical release AFTER the deal with Disney (not the first US release without Disney). I think this is right. SWatsi (talk) 17:32, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- The dates should be the first theatrical release date by Disney, as this is a "disney" page. Ideally, release dates in english-speaking countries. More ideally, the dates listed here MUST match the same dates listed on each linked film's page. For example, Pom Poko's page does not list a release date at all, most likely because it was not released theatrically in an english-language country (a requirement for release dates in English WP, per film MOS). Digging deeper, the film was released by Disney on DVD in english countries only. However, it was released theatrically by Disney in France... which would not qualify as an english-language release. It would on FR.WIKIPEDIA.ORG, however. Me thinks this entire page needs to be reviewed and revamped. (it should be noted that on the Disney Theatrical Releases page, there are entries/footnotes for films that were released theatrically overseas... so those may need to come off that list specifically to meet the same criteria put out here. SpikeJones (talk) 03:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- Are you saying the date's should be the first Disney theatrical release? That would make more sense for the purpose of the article. Or the very first English-language release? But yes it doesn't make sense to me to list a non-Disney release date on a specific Disney page. For example the UK release date for Valiant isn't listed because it wasn't released by Disney in the UK. Even though that was the first release. I imagine the same for Pokemon too.
Shouldn't this film also be included? Ddcc 02:11, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Tinker Bell
Re: this edit, I'm not sure Tinker Bell should be in the list. It was only released to theaters in four limited countries; it was primarily a direct-to-DVD feature. Powers T 19:28, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Tink was a DtV production, and was shown at the El Capitan as pre-DVD marketing. Not released to theaters, and not tracked by any box-office consolidated reporting. In other words, did not generate any theatrical ticket sales. This would be similar to someone renting out a theater and showing the DVD on the big screen ie still a DVD. SpikeJones (talk) 19:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- IMDb indicates it was released to theaters in four countries, so it must have generated some theatrical ticket sales. =) Powers T 20:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Tinker Bell was released (albeit very limited) in the United States. True, it was only at El Capitan Theatre ; however, it was released for over two weeks. To state "only" as a DVD promition is not accurate. It was also released in other continries in the theaters. It counts just as much as Bambi II or Brave Little Toaster. If these are included, this movie should also be included. 20:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jvsett (talk • contribs)
- Box Office Mojo doesn't show ticket sales for Tink, nor does IMDB. IMDB specifically says it was a DVD release. IMDB shows box office info for Bambi2 (albeit in non-english-speaking countries, which brings up the question of including non-english theatrical releases in English wikipedia, a question that has arisen earlier on this very topic). While you may feel very strongly in your own personal convictions over whether a particular film should be on these lists, you are now treading on topics that have already been covered and previously settled through consensus and liable to be reverted much more quickly than some of the other organizational edits you have made. SpikeJones (talk) 20:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please do not revert to personal attacks. If we are going to use Box Office Mojo / IMDB as examples, neither shows any box office information regarding Brave Little Toaster; please see here and here. It is clear that Tinker Bell was release in at least one theater in the United States. Why would it be relevant if it was a promotional event, which I have not seen a source for that statement. Indeed, the fact that ran for two weeks (and not just a single night / day) and charged full price admission of $9 (per contempary newsgroup as shown here), that seems to conteract the promotional event arguement. In any event, IMBD also shows that it was released in theaters in in at least four country. You state there is a counsensus, this does not appear to be a the case; , my quick review of the discussions on this page, and the discussion pages on Template talk:Disney theatrical animated features or Talk:Tinker Bell (film) do not show a discussion on this matter. If I have missed it, please point to same. In short, by the heading of this page, which states that this page is "a list of theatrical animated feature films produced and/or released by Walt Disney Productions/The Walt Disney Company" (whith qulifications regarding United States / domestic / or "promotional") Tinker Bell qualifies for inclusion on both this list and the templete.Jvsett (talk) 21:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- What personal attacks? Anyway, I never mentioned BLT, nor have I adjusted that particular edit. There are any number of TV or DtV programs that had pay-per-views at theaters; they still don't qualify as theatrical releases. If you would like examples, I'm sure I (or others) can dig them up for you given enough time. Regardless of the outcome of this discussion, I know we can agree on one thing - that the following WP pages MUST all match and present the exact same info: Category:Disney animated features canon, List of Disney theatrical animated features, Walt Disney Animated Classics (which should be renamed to "List of", considering how dramatically the page has changed from what it was before), List of Disney feature films and one or two others whose names escape me currently. Also, my recommendation is that the WDAC page be merged into the primary List of DAF page since one is a subset of the other and doesn't present any information that isn't already on the main page. SpikeJones (talk) 23:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- The releases in another country are irrelevant for this list, as "theatrical release" in this context is purely for the home country. For the limited releases here, let's note first that forum postings are not a reliable source. For Tinker Bell specifically, the seemingly simple question/answer is, what does Disney itself call it? If Disney hasn't declared one way or the other, I'm inclined to say leave Tinker Bell out and fix the lead to note that this is for films with a general theatrical release, not a limited one. Otherwise, it should be allowed in, with a footnote noting that it was a very limited release.-- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- According the Disney A to Z supplement, the film "had an initial release in theaters in Argentina on September 11, 2008, and an exclusive theatrical release at the El Capitan Theater in Hollywood for two weeks beginning September 19, 2008." See page 47 here. Furthermore, at Page 67 its included in the Feature Films as the 593rd film released by Disney (or one if its subsidiaries). Based on this description, Tinker Bell should be included on this list and the template, et al. Jvsett (talk) 02:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- The releases in another country are irrelevant for this list, as "theatrical release" in this context is purely for the home country. For the limited releases here, let's note first that forum postings are not a reliable source. For Tinker Bell specifically, the seemingly simple question/answer is, what does Disney itself call it? If Disney hasn't declared one way or the other, I'm inclined to say leave Tinker Bell out and fix the lead to note that this is for films with a general theatrical release, not a limited one. Otherwise, it should be allowed in, with a footnote noting that it was a very limited release.-- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- What personal attacks? Anyway, I never mentioned BLT, nor have I adjusted that particular edit. There are any number of TV or DtV programs that had pay-per-views at theaters; they still don't qualify as theatrical releases. If you would like examples, I'm sure I (or others) can dig them up for you given enough time. Regardless of the outcome of this discussion, I know we can agree on one thing - that the following WP pages MUST all match and present the exact same info: Category:Disney animated features canon, List of Disney theatrical animated features, Walt Disney Animated Classics (which should be renamed to "List of", considering how dramatically the page has changed from what it was before), List of Disney feature films and one or two others whose names escape me currently. Also, my recommendation is that the WDAC page be merged into the primary List of DAF page since one is a subset of the other and doesn't present any information that isn't already on the main page. SpikeJones (talk) 23:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Tinker Bell was released (albeit very limited) in the United States. True, it was only at El Capitan Theatre ; however, it was released for over two weeks. To state "only" as a DVD promition is not accurate. It was also released in other continries in the theaters. It counts just as much as Bambi II or Brave Little Toaster. If these are included, this movie should also be included. 20:39, 26 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jvsett (talk • contribs)
- IMDb indicates it was released to theaters in four countries, so it must have generated some theatrical ticket sales. =) Powers T 20:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Regarding your statement "it was released in Argentina", keep in mind that this is the English Wikipedia. The posting of film release dates, per FILM:MOS, are restricted to only English-speaking countries. This would eliminate listing Tink's Argentinian release on this page or elsewhere in en.wikipedia.org. SpikeJones (talk) 02:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't have the 2006 edition of Disney A to Z so I can't tell -- does Dave Smith's official feature film list include the direct-to-video features? Powers T 13:29, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Under the Supplement (at page 85), it is not inlcuded in the list of direct-to-video features. Jvsett (talk) 14:21, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- That's pretty strong evidence. Dave Smith should be considered an extremely reliable source on this topic. I admit I don't quite understand the reasoning, but for consistency perhaps Tinker Bell should be on the list. Powers T 14:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- "Direct-to-video" it's not an opinion, it's not subject of interpretations, it has a clear meaning. Dave Smith is wrong again (or maybe he has some reason to not include Tinker Bell under the DTV section that he did not explain anywhere yet). --Elikrotupos (talk) 08:35, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- That's pretty strong evidence. Dave Smith should be considered an extremely reliable source on this topic. I admit I don't quite understand the reasoning, but for consistency perhaps Tinker Bell should be on the list. Powers T 14:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- Under the Supplement (at page 85), it is not inlcuded in the list of direct-to-video features. Jvsett (talk) 14:21, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Referencing \ Citing Upcoming Films?
Should all upcoming\indevelopment films be provided with references? Asking because I've noticed King of the Elves removed a couple of times mentioning no references. I'm adding a reference to prove it from List of Walt Disney Pictures feature films, which references WDAS and Pixar films through to 2012. Don't know if this is necessary so please add or remove the ref as required. Ta. SWatsi (talk) 23:43, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Of course we need references. How else can anyone verify the information we place in this article? Powers T 01:56, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- Just saying, its not had references for a long time, if at all, that's all. At the time I was wondering why King of the Elves which has existed on these lists for some time was removed, whereas other films in a similar position had been left on??
- Nether-the-less I have added that reference, and was actually hoping to prompt others to do so for other films. A yes would've sufficed as well :) SWatsi (talk) 09:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well the main reason I didn't remove the other movies is because their articles all have extensive references. It's technically not enough, but it would be ridiculous for me to do so. The King of the Elves article had no reliable sources at the time. Powers T 14:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- KotE is announced in an official press release, linked from both the official websites of Disney and Philip K. Dick. The film is in early pre-production, but it's not a rumor. --Elikrotupos (talk) 08:40, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well the main reason I didn't remove the other movies is because their articles all have extensive references. It's technically not enough, but it would be ridiculous for me to do so. The King of the Elves article had no reliable sources at the time. Powers T 14:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
untitled pooh project
Bringing this reference over from The Tigger Movie in case it is related..[1]SpikeJones (talk) 13:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- No, it's not the same film. As much as I was hoping for "The Tigger Movie 2" - it turned out the Kenny Loggins project was "My Friends Tigger, Pooh and a Musical Too" - the CGI animated finale to the TV Show "My Friends Tigger & Pooh". Not anywhere near an animated classic, just a TV show capper. This film, however, will be animated in the U.S., overseen by John Lasseter, and be traditionally animated. That's why it would appear that it should be in the canon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.180.216.207 (talk) 15:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's canon!
New Mickey Mouse and Winnie the Pooh Initiatives
Mickey Mouse and Winnie the Pooh remain among the company’s key character franchises; for a broad cross-section of consumers, these two classic characters boast a deep emotional connection and an unrivaled affinity like no other. In support of this, DCP has developed comprehensive plans to propel the growth of these classic character properties and keep them “top of mind” across demographics.
Beginning with Winnie the Pooh, DCP and Walt Disney Animation Studios today announced a new theatrical film planned for spring 2011, making it Pooh’s first theatrical release in six years since Pooh’s Heffalump Movie in 2005. DCP will focus merchandise strategy on moms of infants and toddlers, with a secondary focus on women. Other Disney businesses, including Disney Publishing, are developing Pooh content for a new generation of consumers that will further drive the growth potential of this classic character.
Said by Disney themselves:
https://licensing.disney.com/Home/display.jsp?contentId=dcp_home_pressroom_pressreleases_dcp_home_pr_us_licensing_show_general_060109&forPrint=false&language=en&preview=false&imageShow=0&pressRoom=US&translationOf=null®ion=0&ccPK=dcp_home_pressroom_press_room_all_US&first=0&last=0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.180.216.207 (talk) 19:29, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- No, it's not canon (a word that isn't used anymore, anyway). Even if you want to take the press release at face value, there is no indication that the Pooh film will be produced by WDAS... especially as it uses the Heffalump film in the same paragraph. As for the Kenny Loggins project, do you have a citation that shows that is what he was working on when he specifically said "film"?SpikeJones (talk) 03:10, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Many Disney forum-users and hobbyists still use that word. I believe a recent Disney press release for a DVD re-release of one of their classics used the word, as well.
- How can the wording be anymore clear?:
- "Beginning with Winnie the Pooh, DCP and Walt Disney Animation Studios today announced a new theatrical film planned for spring 2011, making it Pooh's first theatrical release in six years since Pooh's Heffalump Movie in 2005."
- They say Walt Disney Animation Studios is making THIS film. Yes, they bring up Pooh's Heffalump Movie but don't say WDAS made that one. They just say WDAS is making THIS one. That is clear as day.
- And clearly they know the difference between the Heffalump studio and WDAS because later when discussing the TinkerBell films they call the studio Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment. So they do differentiate between the two studios. Not a mistake on their part.
- Finally, it is obvious Loggins was referring to My Friends Tigger, Pooh and a Musical Too. He says he's working on a 'new Tigger movie' - well, this certainly qualifies. Tigger plays prominently and his name is a headliner. This was the next (and besides this new 2011 Pooh project, only) Pooh film to release. The DVD had a montage of Loggins performing the song "Underneath the Same Sky" to scenes from the movie. That would seem to fit. Plus, if a new theatrical Pooh film is coming, than there won't be a new DTV anytime soon. Just like because "The Princess and the Frog" is coming, they stopped 'Disney Princess Enchanted Tales' - any new Pooh DTV will be stopped to avoid weakening the impact of the theatrical film. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.180.216.207 (talk) 06:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Disney stopped using "canon" a few moons ago. Whether "fans and hobbyists" use the term is irrelevant if the company has stopped using it. If you know of a press release that states "canon", please provide a link (a recent google search of go.com did not return *any* results when this topic came up elsewhere the other day). Your statement about weakening the impact of the theatrical film with a DTV release is conjecture at this point. "The Tigger Movie" is considered a Pooh film, so you are also making a guess as to what the "untitled Pooh project" is going to be about. You are also associating the Princess/Frog movie as the reason for the Enchanted Tales videos to be stopped, which is also conjecture. Please remember that you can't publish your own opinion of events in WP or provide your own original research as to cause and effect. SpikeJones (talk) 12:01, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, and as to using press release info to predict future events (as you insist that WDAS is making the film and therefore qualifies as being listed in the aforementioned "canon"), remember that Disney also issued press releases about "American Dog" and "Disney's America", two projects that either never came to fruition or were dramatically changed in concept/execution from the original announcement. WP is not a crystal ball. SpikeJones (talk) 12:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not trying to fight with you, just so you know - if any of this seems to be getting unfriendly. My statement about DTVs weakening theatrical films isn't really conjecture. I do not care to do all the digging to find the quotes right now, but Lasseter said it in an interview (calling the previous administration 'stupid suits'), I believe it was said in "Dream On, Silly Dreamer", and multiple articles at Disney news sites like BlueSkyDisney and Jim Hill Media say the same thing. I did not originate those words, I'm echoing them. Also, I'm not 'publishing' conjecture if I'm talking to you about it personally here.
I'm just passionate about Disney animation and love to help spread news of it. I'm not trying to be an ignorant fan or troll. I love to get the word out about upcoming projects which is why I want to work at one of Disney's advertising departments. It seems to me to be clear what the DCP press release was saying - that WDAS is behind this. Perhaps I AM misinterpreting it, in which case, I am sorry. I am currently trying to contact Disney to find out. Mac McLean did not know, he can only speak for the home video premieres and did not seem to know anything about this project. Unfortunately, Nidia Tatalovich, head of corporate communications for DCP is out of her office until Sunday. I only got an auto-reply email from her. I'm doing what I can to sort this out. Do you know of any Disney contacts?
Finally, your last argument is moot. At this point, with 80% animated, The Princess and the Frog will be released. There is no guarantee that Rapunzel or King of the Elves will be. They could go through development hell and never see the light of day. So they really shouldn't be already on the canon, either, as they are only announced at this point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.180.216.207 (talk) 16:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- JHM and BSD are both wonderfully well-written by nice people, but 99.9% of the time do NOT qualify as valid sources for WP as they are self-published blogs that do not reveal their sources. WP is an encyclopedia, so no matter how passionate you are about the topic, you MUST have valid, factual sources to back up your edits. You cannot interpret what is said in any way. "Untitled Pooh Movie" could be a Tigger film, a Rabbit film, or a Gopher film. It might be produced by DisneyToon, might be by WDAS, could be outsourced entirely to a third-party like the hand-drawn portions of Enchanted were. But we can't say anything more about it until more information has been released. My last point is not moot, as American Dog was well into production when it got yanked and reworked. Emperor's New Groove went through massive changes from drama to comedy and a name change from its original press release to final product. Press release info does and can change. Read the new book "The Art of Walt Disney World" for dozens of examples of proposed and announced projects that never came to pass. Yes, many of us Disney-oriented editors here on WP have plenty of inside Disney contacts. But information obtained from our friendships with those people cannot be posted either, as the info must appear in an unbiased, 3rd party source - otherwise the info will be removed as being WP:OR. There's nothing wrong with enthusiasm, but WP is not a personal blog where you can post things without proper backing. And a small hint if you do end up working for a Disney advertising department: the confidentiality agreement you sign will probably prohibit you from discussing any project publically until it has been announced through proper/official channels anyway. (and if you are serious about contributing to WP, sign up for a username; you may gain a little goodwill that way) SpikeJones (talk) 17:54, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- A) I do have an account, but since the cache on my computer doesn't work right, I get logged out every time I leave (the 'stay logged in for 30 days' choice doesn't work), so I'm too lazy to sign in each time I visit.
- B) You must have misunderstood why your point is moot. You are allowing "Rapunzel" and "King of the Elves" to stay added, correct? Yet, you were trying to say announced projects should not be added in case currently unforeseen circumstances preclude the film from coming to fruition. If that is a qualifying factor for what should be on this list, than the list should currently end at "BOLT". Only once a film is in theaters should it be added because only then has a film truly been 'released'.
- C) The articles I was referring to exist circa 2006/2007 and consist of official comments from Disney employees, not unidentified sources. That'd make them official. I simply don't care to dig through 3 years-worth of archives right now.
- D) You sound like a stuck-up elitist right now. Yes, you're trying to preserve the integrity of this article, I understand, but that doesn't mean you should berate those who attempt to assist you. I am not making this a personal blog. DCP said the film was being announced in-conjunction with Walt Disney Animation Studios. They later say the fifth TinkerBell film is being made by Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment. That shows they know the difference between the two studios. I did not come on here and say "At UltimateDisney forum a member claiming to work for WDAS said a new Pooh film is coming in 2011! I'm adding it because I don't think he is lying!" - that is a blog post. That is speculation. What DCP said seems crystal clear to me. I fail to understand why you are so against it. I may turn out to be wrong, but why would DCP issue a press release with misinformation?
- E) This whole article is in bad shape, anyways. It is missing various DisneyToon films and could use more explanation about the history of the list.
- F) I know very well of American Dog and Kingdom of the Sun.
- G) Finally, I am not a naive little boy. I know that working at DCP or a similar Disney-related branch would not give me the right to blather any news as I saw fit. However, in an instance such as this, I could encourage the company to better clarify the details of their press releases. I could have gotten them to say without a shadow of a doubt X studio is animating this film which means either yes, it is a Disney animated Classic or no, it is not. No, I can't just blurt anything but I can work to ensure what news is released is released in a clearer, more understandable fashion.
- I'm willing to help clean up this article, if you don't act with such snobbery.
NealP (talk) 19:01, 3 June 2009 (UTC)NealP
- Thank you for the "kingdom" correction to my above typo. What you are interpreting as berating/snobbery is the requirement for all WP articles that edits adhere to WP policy. You didn't indicate that you were familiar with citation or WP:OR policies. If you don't care to sift through years of paperwork to find content to make a valid edit, then how can you also profess to want to properly improve what is currently here? If you would like to improve the article, join in the already existing conversation regarding what should or shouldn't be listed above. KotE, PatF, Rap have been documented beyond their original press releases to the point where they can confidently be included in the WDAS section. "Untitled Pooh Project" is so vague as to not even warrant this level of discussion or comparison to those other, more well documented films *at this time*. Your enthusiasm is appreciated, surely, and matches well with the enthusiasm other editors have. But as an encyclopedia, editing rules need to be adhered to, and as such, raw enthusiasm needs to be reined in. SpikeJones (talk) 19:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Are not the Tinkerbell movies "released by" Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment, because it is a Home Entertainment movie, not because they made the film. That division is for the release of DVD and Blu-Ray isn't it??
- Also after Lasseter and Catmull were brought into Disney Animation, it has been mentioned that DisneyToon Studios has been brought under the Animation Studios banner itself. This is mentioned in the DisneyToon article and is referenced[[1]].
- It does sound suspect, I would assume as of now it is a WDAS film, but the way it is written, and from the variety article, it may still be a DisneyToon Movie. Anyone agree that Disney's setup is getting confusing? SWatsi (talk) 19:39, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree, the Disney corporation is not quite clear on what goes where. The sources are up to interpretation. My reading on the article, and the other sources, is the new Pooh film would be coming form DisneyToon Studios. This passage makes it sound like its connected to Pooh's Heffalump Movie: "As for Pooh, the movie's planned release for spring 2011 will come six years after "Pooh's Heffalump Movie" was largely panned by critics while earning just $18 million at the domestic boxoffice." [2] Historically, the only Pooh projects that were released by WDAS were the five shorts from 1966 through 1983, and along with the film The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh. The first animated television show was made in Australia by the television department. The others produced by Walt Disney Television I believe all recent Pooh films (made in theater or Direct to Video) have come form the Disney Toon Studios [3] or Walt Disney Studios in general (see Piglet's Big Movie [4] and The Tigger Movie [5], which is made by Disney TV). The video spin-offs of My Friends Tigger & Pooh appear to be from Walt Disney Television. Finally, the Walt Disney Animation Studios' website (which can be found here) does not yet list it as a feature project for WDAS. So while it appears to verifiable that a new Pooh film is coming out from both industry source (such as the Disney Consumer Produces press release) and third party sources (The Hollywood Reporter), I would was say the preponderance of evidence is that it is DisneyToon film. So I would suggest that the film either be moved to that section or "Other animated films released by Disney" section until more sources clear the matter up. Jvsett (talk) 07:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- The Winnie the Pooh 2011 film should not be on the classics list until we have our certainty. As long as any doubt remains, it should not be included. NealP (talk) 18:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)NealP
Starting a re-vamp
- I am going to begin working to better explain the various lists here, as well as eliminate the other list of WDAS classics and the other list of DTVs, making this the only home for them. I will not do any OR and will only write what is factual. If I neglect to include proper citations, it's not because it is OR. It is because I must have not realized a citation was necessary. Please don't delete the text but rather add the propr citation.
- I want to clean this page up and make it all right.
NealP (talk) 20:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)NealP
- Here's how I can see the updated page working:
- Do not make it strictly theatrical. Thanks to DisneyToon, there are as many straight-to-video animated films as there are theatrical. So, the term 'theatrical' is too limiting.
- Right now, we force users to go to other pages to find any non-theatrical Disney animation films. Let's remove the term 'theatrical' and consolidate it all here.
- Disney is no longer a one trick animation pony. Once upon a time, only (what is now) WDAS made animated films under the Disney name. Now that Disney practically owns Pixar and has a similar deal with ImageMovers Digital, as well as exclusive distribution rights to Studio Ghibli, we should include WDAS as being the main animation studio, yes, but now one among several.
- We list each studio (Pixar, WDAS, ImageMovers, Ghibli) and explain their relationship to Disney as a parent company (films co-produced by, merely distributed, etc.)
- We include all the films then. For DisneyToon, we need to explain the types of films - compilations of TV series, or TV series-based films, etc.
- We only include feature-length films. If Disney bends the rules and calls them theatrical, we must, too (like Saludos Amigos), otherwise we follow the Acadmey's 70-minute (or is it 75-minute?) rule.
- We will also fix the featurettes page and shorts page in the same way and make sure they are connected at the hip to this page.
- But as it stands, this page makes it sound like WDAS is it except for some other non-WDAS films. Nowadays, WDAS is really just one among many and should be treated as such by not saying "non-WDAS films" but rather treat it as "other Disney animation".
NealP (talk) 20:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)NealP
- I would support a revamp of the lists, this is something that I (and others I think) have thought about. It's an interesting time to propose this though..
- Some points on this, I'm not sure its wise to mix the theatrical and home-video releases together, this is most important for DisneyToons as you mentioned, but also Studio Ghibli (have Disney released any of their films on DVD but not at cinema? - Disney don't distribute those in the UK so I can't say, but it seems that they have from previous conversations.
- You mention the Classics list. If that list is discontinued then the Pixar lists should also be considered. - i.e. is it wise to have two seperate lists of the PIXAR FILMS.
- Good luck. SWatsi (talk) 20:43, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry forgot. I have some suggestions which might work to solve a few problems.. hopefully SWatsi (talk) 20:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- There's no issue with limiting this to "theatrical". By extending to DTV or television productions, this page would become so large that it would be split out to the subparts anyway. And there already are pages for "list of DTV" and "list of TV" productions anyway. Be sure to look there as well as part of your cleanup. If you need help finding those links, speak up. Remember that this is the "english" wikipedia, which means that we don't talk about films released theatrically in non-english countries if they were only released on video here. (and some may object to your phrasing of "practically owning pixar", when they "fully" do. Perhaps your intent was to use a different example as you wrote that?). As I suggested earlier this week, it might be a good split to have this page be "theatrical animation distributed by Disney" with the in-page breakdown being by film producer (WDAS, Pixar, Ghibli, Other). Some may want to include films that contained partial animation by said producers (Enhachanted, Pete's Dragon) SpikeJones (talk) 20:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree; let's keep this just theatrical releases and leave the DTV releases for another page. Powers T 21:12, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I favor an 'all or none' approach. I do not like how currently we only list 11 DisneyToon films merely because they were in theaters and force users to follow a link to the remaining features. I say either don't include any of the films of DT Studio, or put them all here. We can not forget these 11 DTVs were still intended as striaght-to-video and only got theatrical releases because they were of a higher quality. They really aren't special to that line of films.
- How do all of you feel about this? To me, it's bothersome seeing only a partial list of one companies films here and the rest of the list elsewhere. Since every WDAS, Pixar, and Imagemovers Digital film will be or have been released theatrically, DisneyToon feels like a strange outlier.
NealP (talk) 21:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)NealP
- You have to treat it factually, and don't judge content based on what you feel is a slight. There is a page dedicated to DisneyToon Studios just like there is a page dedicated to Pixar. This is a page for "theatrical" releases, and if Toy Story 2 had been a DTV as originally intended, it would not be included in the Pixar section. See List of Disney direct-to-video films as well (which reminds me, we need to pull "canon" off that page too). SpikeJones (talk) 21:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I don't understand what the point of this page is. It really isn't a hub so much as a repeat of information on other pages. The fact is all Pixar, ImageMovers, and WDAS films are/will be theatrical. So why have a page for all their films one place, and repeat that info here? This whole article seems to be a repeat and unnecessary. There should be a page for Disney's theatrical animated classics, a page for pixar's films, a page for disney shorts, a page for disney featurettes, page for pixar shorts, page for disneytoons, page for ghibli, and finally page for imagemovers. Most of those already have separate individual pages. To echo the information on this article doesn't seem useful. Could someone explain the usefullness of having this article, plus those articls? If this served as a home or hub, maybe, but this is just another article with the same info.
NealP (talk) 22:41, 3 June 2009 (UTC)NealP
- "Waiter, have you tasted the soup? Taste the soup!" Now you get the problem. Unfortunately, deleting this page will require a strong argument of reasoning when you submit it for AfD. There will be many people who will agree with this stance, but an equal number who will oppose it, leaving you right back to the issue at hand. If you are going to go down the AfD route, then figure out what page(s) are the appropriate places for the info on this page and then move that content over. Eventually, you'll be left with a disamb page which should be adequate for point people elsewhere. SpikeJones (talk) 01:39, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Other animated films released by Disney
Does anyone notice these are all projects that tie back to Tim Burton/Henry Selick? Any way we could use that connection to re-title it. Such as "Tim Burton Animation Projects" or something along those lines? Because calling them "Other animated films released by Disney" sounds a lot like "other animated films distributed but not produced by Disney". Either the first list is re-titled or the first list combines with the second.
And Alice in Wonderland the Tim Burton version is predominantly live-action. I don't think it really has a place on this page. That'd be like adding The Secret of the Magic Gourd just because it features a CGI character throughout. NealP (talk) 18:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)NealP
- Please see above conversation regarding a project to discuss page changes. SpikeJones (talk) 19:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
More Pooh
Well, the film is officially a classic and being done by WDAS. If you can trust me after all this, than feel free to add it back to the list. If not, then I won't mind. Etiher way, here is my proof - take it or leave it - I got a response from Disney and posted it at my blog:
http://alwaysanimated.blogspot.com/
NealP (talk) 21:14, 4 June 2009 (UTC)NealP
- Again, while your enthusiasm is appreciated, we can't take a posting that you have made on your blog as a valid WP:CITE. This would be similar to Joe Blow posting on their site that "the next Pooh film will be drawn as stick figures" and then referencing it as a "new stick-figure pooh film" in WP. We will have to continue to wait for an unbiased, unaffiliated source to be presented. SpikeJones (talk) 21:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- I expected as much. While I don't quite know how Heidi Trotta, official spokeswoman for Disney, is biased - you can do as you wish. She asked me to distribute this news around, so that is what I am doing. Furthermore, I do not have time to help here any further this summer. You can revert back from any changes I've made. I won't be around to know. NealP (talk) 22:16, 4 June 2009 (UTC)NealP
- It;s not that Heidi Trotta is biased, but rather it is the blog post. Blogs are not seen as reliable because anyone can write anything claiming to be official word. As you know not everyone is truthful on the internet. If this were someone elses blog, with comments from another person it would be the same debate.
- SWatsi (talk) 23:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- And it's an original research. Anyway there's an official press release saying explicitly that the new Pooh is produced by WDAS: here, saying: "Beginning with Winnie the Pooh, DCP and Walt Disney Animation Studios today announced a new theatrical film planned for spring 2011". I think it's a reliable sources. It's a bit ambiguous, but now we know the truth, so there's no reason not to use it. --Elikrotupos (talk) 09:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Discussion Regarding Disney Film List Clean-Up
For discussions regarding the over-arching clean-up of the various Disney animated film lists, please see this WikiProjects page: Wikipedia:WikiProject Disney/Animated Film Article Cleanup. Please add any discussion regarding same there for the time being. Thank you. Jvsett (talk) 04:43, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- ^ Bob Kostanczuk (2008-10-03). "From 'Pooh' to 'Danger Zone,' Kenny Loggins has kept 'Footloose'". Post-Tribune. Retrieved 2008-10-14.
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