Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Syrian Civil War/Archive 45) (bot |
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== RfC == |
== RfC == |
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Should the Israeli flag be included in the Main belligerent section? [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 21:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC) |
Should the Israeli flag be included in the Main belligerent section? [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 21:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' the Israeli flag, [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 21:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC) |
*'''Include''' the Israeli flag, [[User:Huldra|Huldra]] ([[User talk:Huldra|talk]]) 21:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC) |
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Provided evidence of the support of the Turkish military forces (for artillery fire large caliber) and the purchase oil off the terrorists.)
Provided evidence of the support of the Turkish military forces (for artillery fire large caliber) and the purchase oil off the terrorists.)
Jump up ^ https://russian.rt.com/article/145541 Jump up ^ http://lifenews.ru/news/182947 Jump up ^ http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/1579521/video/
References
The map shouldn't show sparsely populated deserts as under control of any of the belligerents
Deserts make up most of the land in Eastern and South Eastern Syria. No armed group can control deserts, there's simply nothing there to control. Perhaps there's a fortress here and there, or a town by a river, and these could be marked as under control of whoever controls, but the area around them shouldn't. Tahrir al-Sham should be colored blue and sparsely populated deserts white.
Belligerents and Foreign involvement sections
Do we really need a section for foreign involvement when a lot of the foreign parties are already described in the Belligerents section (e.g. Russia, Iran, US-led coalition)? I think the Foreign Involvement section should be merged into the Belligerents section.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:03, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
- I agree - let's make foreign involvement into sub-topic of the belligerents section and tweak it down to minimum.GreyShark (dibra) 13:27, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
DoneGreyShark (dibra) 17:55, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
RfC
Should the Israeli flag be included in the Main belligerent section? Huldra (talk) 21:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Include the Israeli flag, Huldra (talk) 21:05, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Isreal is not a belligerent. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:13, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. At the current, published, involvement level it is just the "usual" meddling/play that occurs between wars. Israel is definitely less involved than Turkey - even pre 2016 Turkey (Turkey more or less from the get go was heavily supporting Turkmen and Islamist forces, including movement and supply on Turkish soil). The current involvement level may barely be classified as support. This may change very quickly, but it has not yet. It is also less involved in supply than Saudi and Qatari material support for the Sunni forces, and they are not listed.Icewhiz (talk) 04:14, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose.this gets brought up every few months, it gets rejected and nothing has changed. Israel treats wounded fighters and as per their standard operating procedure long before the SCW bombs weapons headed to Lebenon they spot in Syria. None of that makes them a belligerent in the syrian civil war. Legacypac (talk) 09:51, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. Israel is not a belligerent in the current Syrian Civil war.Davidbena (talk) 15:53, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support - Israel supports Syrian rebels financially and medically while attacking pro-government forces every other week, these are indisputable facts. But it may be a good idea to wait for opinions for editors who are not either Israeli or Arabs (uninvolved). The votes so far are pretty predictable. FunkMonk (talk) 15:56, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support is different than direct involvement. Declared support is medical, RS speculation (probably true) is logistics, intel, and some material. However material support by other actors in the region has been much more significant. Fire is also far from every other week (during major rebel offensives - perhaps - for most of the past 2 years - no). The major Israeli air-force / long-range rocket attacks - are less than 10 throughout the entire conflict - and are supposedly limited to Hezbollah conveys carrying advanced arms to Lebanon. Beyond that - it is sporadic low-intensity fire - the Israeli military claims mortar/artillery rounds landed in Israel (and I will note that skeptic observers, in Israel as well, suspect some of these are fired "by request" by the Rebels into Israel to elicit a response - but it is confirmed by RS that at least several of these are true in the sense that rounds landed in Israel (who fired - more complex with the mess in Syria)) - and then fires back with artillery/rockets taking out 1-2 positions. This fire is limited to the area close border zone, and on a "hot" day is limited to a few events - and usually doesn't occur. To put things in perspective - in 2006 Lebanon War the IDF fired some 160,000 artillery rounds and 1,800 MLRS rounds. Throughout the entire 6 year Syrian civil war the IDF fired less than 100 short range rounds (some Spike (missile) NLOS, some others), and performed less than 10 long range strikes. I don't think this is an Israeli editor POV issue - it is really a question of what consists of involvement. The current level of fire - is one the level of low intensity border skirmishes - not even close to what the IDF would do if engaged "officially".Icewhiz (talk) 16:18, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- As mentioned above - Israel has provided Humanitarian aid during the Syrian Civil War to areas on Syrian territories held by moderate rebel factions; this has included medicals, food, fuel (for water pumps). A recent overview of the situation on the Golan Heights is well described by this assessment of al-Tamimi.GreyShark (dibra) 16:50, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- FunkMonk's insinuation that my opinion should be disgarded is incorrect. I'm not Israeli or Arab and have never even visited either Syria or Israel. many countries have provided humanitarian aid to Syria, but we don't list them as belligerents. Israel is not shy about going to War. If they wanted to insert themselves in the SCW they would be kicking Syrian/ISIL or someone's ass. Legacypac (talk) 20:00, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- As mentioned above - Israel has provided Humanitarian aid during the Syrian Civil War to areas on Syrian territories held by moderate rebel factions; this has included medicals, food, fuel (for water pumps). A recent overview of the situation on the Golan Heights is well described by this assessment of al-Tamimi.GreyShark (dibra) 16:50, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - as mentioned above by Legacypac and Icewhiz, Israeli engagement in the Syrian War is humanitarian support, sporadic but minor border incidents (against Ba'athist troops, FSA and ISIL alike) and possible harassment of Hezbollah on Lebanese and Syrian territories as part of Iran-Israel proxy conflict. In first case - humanitarian support is not belligerency, in the second case this is too insignificant to justify listing of Israel as belligerent per WP:NOTABLE and WP:FALSEBALANCE and in third case this is largely denied by Israel and in fact mainly denied by Ba'athist Syria and Hezbollah (except several cases) which is not sufficient per WP:VERIFIABILITY. This discussion is by the way following a similar one at talk:Foreign involvement in the Syrian Civil War and numerous more archived at talk:Syrian Civil War/Israel.GreyShark (dibra) 16:50, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Comment - I would also like to draw attention to the fact that more than a year ago someone created Israeli involvement in the Syrian Civil War by synthesis of humanitarian aid + sporadic border incidents + unverified incidents involving Hezbollah to make it look like there is an organized campaign of Israelis to systematically "attack" the Ba'athist regime and its allies on all fronts. If there would be no consensus to list Israel in the infobox, hence the article Israeli involvement in the Syrian Civil War should be deleted.GreyShark (dibra) 17:00, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. As per above comments. BobFromBrockley (talk) 20:35, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support. Israel has been proven many times to support the rebels. They even support rebels with airstrikes. [1][2][3][4] Sgisright (talk) 01:08, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Link 1 is a user generated place to collect links. Not a Reliable Source and proves nothing.
- Link 2 is the WSJ article. Giving a big of cash to make friends with the armed men right across the border is just good sense.
- Link 3 is an opinion piece that nicely lays out the facts but jumps to a POV conclusion. It also says China should be listed with Iran amd Russia.
- Link 4 key sentence "Israel allegedly attacked the Syrian Arab Army after a shell landed in the occupied Golan Heights." ie Israel responded to an attack on land they have long controlled. Zero to do with SCW. Legacypac (talk) 11:07, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose (Summoned by bot)The level of involvment of Israel is not enough to get to belligerent status. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 12:14, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Support. The discussion is not related to the "Belligerents" graph immediately (I suppose), but to "support". Overwhelming verifiable evidence to justify inclusion of Israel. Also, as i have noted before, Israel is at war with Syria in the most formal legal sense since 1973, or even before.Axxxion (talk) 15:39, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Providing support does not a combatant make. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
Sources for the Israeli involvement RfC
In order not to clutter the RfC, I will start adding sources here, which indicate the Israeli involvement. Please feel free to add other sources. Huldra (talk) 21:26, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
- https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-gives-secret-aid-to-syrian-rebels-1497813430 Unfortunately behind a pay wall
- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-giving-secret-aid-syrian-rebels-bashar-al-assad-golah-heights-hezbollah-fursan-al-joulan-a7797151.html
- http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/New-UN-report-reveals-collaboration-between-Israel-and-Syrian-rebels-383926 About the UN reports
- http://www.timesofisrael.com/two-israeli-druze-plead-guilty-in-killing-of-wounded-syrian-fighter/ Israeli Druse kill Syrian fighter, who had come to Israel for treatment.
- Those sources are describing various levels of humanitarian aid. A better academic source for this is al-Tamimi.GreyShark (dibra) 18:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- "The groups use the cash to pay fighters and buy ammunition" (quote from the Independent article)...that is cash from Israel to rebel fighter groups. Just when did ammunition become "humanitarian aid"? Huldra (talk) 22:23, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- First off, these 2 sources (WSJ (and Independent's coverage of it) interviews with rebels, and JPOST UN's report (which really only brings up contacts and unspecified supplies) don't establish a fact - but speculate (well-founded speculation, and speculation I (and many others) believe - but still speculation)).... But more importantly - providing ammunition, intel, cash, material support, etc - does not make one into a a main belligerent. We more or less classify belligerents on Wikipedia (and elsewhere) - based on who is doing the shooting (and how much). A belligerent would have troops in the ground, air, or sea acting in a significant capacity - this is not what is alleged here. Even the supply alleged is fairly low (even though there is less well founded, but quite probable, speculation that it is greater than alleged (based on interviews) by WSJ - it still would be low). As you may see in Yom Kippur War (US and USSR not listed as belligerents - despite massive air-lifts supplying weapon systems and ammunition to Israel and Syria respectively). Using a true proxy force (and in this case - it seems more like liaising/supporting - but not actual control) - usually will not raise one to a belligerent. If you paint your own forces with other colors and give them other uniforms - and sent them in - e.g. Black September (Syrian troops as PLA) or Bay of Pigs Invasion (CIA, US Air force, etc. - which is more borderline in terms of classification) - then, if there is consensus that is the case (which often takes years to emerge - though if contested (as it was in War in Donbass) - it might be listed on-wiki as probable for quite some time) - then you'd be listed as a belligerent. In short - giving ammo, weapon systems, food, cash, etc. - does not raise one to belligerent status. If it did - we'd have to list a whole bunch of other states in the Syrian civil war and elsewhere.Icewhiz (talk) 06:20, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- Huldra, the whole quote is "Israel may be funding up to four other rebel groups which have Western backing. The groups use the cash to pay fighters and buy ammunition.". So, maybe Israel is funding and maybe the rebels are using - those are clearly speculations per WP:RSCONTEXT and WP:RSOPINION (same arguments as alleged North Korean involvement in Syrian War). What we do know with higher level of certainty is that Israelis provide certain humanitarian supplies to specific "moderate rebel" groups and to the pro-Asad Druze village of al-Hader [5] (via Druze community of Western Golan) in order to relieve local populations and they do treat wounded Syrians. I do not see such actions to become "solid" argument for "Israeli involvement", though in case border incidents do intensify to a point that Israelis invade into Syrian territories (whether held by Ba'ath, rebels, Nusra or ISIL) - this would be a valid point.GreyShark (dibra) 06:37, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- GreyShark, why not cite the start of the independent article, which says "The Israeli authorities have provided significant amounts of cash, food, fuel and medical supplies to Sunni rebels fighting against Bashar al-Assad’s government, the Wall Street Journal reported on Monday, citing "half a dozen rebels and three people familiar with Israel's thinking."" and "A special Israeli army unit was created to oversee the costly aid operation, the WSJ reported, which gives Fursan al-Joulan - Knights of the Golan - an estimated $5,000 (£3,900) a month. The group of around 400 fighters receives no direct support from Western rebel backers, and is not affiliated with the Free Syrian Army, the official rebel umbrella organisation."
- So according to that, it Israel is for sure funding one armed opposition group, and might be funding 4 others.
- Also, have you forgotten this? http://www.timesofisrael.com/two-israeli-druze-plead-guilty-in-killing-of-wounded-syrian-fighter/ Israeli Druse have attacked and killed Syrian fighters who had come to Israel for treatment. Those Syrian fighters had a rather unsavoury reputation, including killing Druse women and children in Syria,
- Also, AFAIK, Israel is still nominally at war with Syria. If you believe that Israel only has a "humanitarian mission" in Syria, then I have a very nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. You might also want to meet my good friend, the Nigerian Prince X, who needs your help to get some millions out of Nigeria? Huldra (talk) 23:19, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
- I have no idea what do you mean by "I have a very nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. You might also want to meet my good friend, the Nigerian Prince X, who needs your help to get some millions out of Nigeria?". Clearly you are off-topic.GreyShark (dibra) 12:10, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- "The groups use the cash to pay fighters and buy ammunition" (quote from the Independent article)...that is cash from Israel to rebel fighter groups. Just when did ammunition become "humanitarian aid"? Huldra (talk) 22:23, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
- Seriously? The actions of some Druze villagers does not make the State of Israel a combatant. Legacypac (talk) 10:30, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Did you read the source? The Druze villagers attacked because the people were Syrian fighters. Do you seriously think they would have attacked...sending themselves to Israeli jails for years...if they hadn't known that the wounded men in the Israeli ambulances were Syrian fighters? If you do, then I still have a very nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell! Huldra (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- Druze villagers lynching severely wounded Sunni fighters who were transferred by military ambulance to hospital - that is not a sign of involvement - that is humanitarian assistance (which angered Druze in the Golan and the Galilee (there was a failed lynching in the Galilee) - as the Sunnis were pressuring Hadar). I'll note that other RS (including I believe WSJ) have indicated that Israeli is also providing some assistance to Hadar (the Druze village on the Syrian side of the line) recently. All groups mentioned by WSJ are fairly small and local.Icewhiz (talk) 11:16, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, it does not "indicated that Israeli is also providing some assistance", it clearly says "The Israeli authorities have provided significant amounts of cash, food, fuel and medical supplies to Sunni rebels fighting against Bashar al-Assad’s government." Why, oh why is it that suddenly people are not able to read English anymore? Huldra (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- I am able to read English. And I actually follow just about every media (and I'll not also less reputable, though often informative, social media), in English, Arabic, and Hebrew report on Syria, as part of my day job. The support indicated by WSJ is a very small cash contribution and some supplies. Less reputable sources (though I will note I am inclined to believe them) indicate a bit more. However this is far from belligerent status, which would entail at the very least significant Israeli fire at Syria. Most Israelis woild not have a problem in intervening in Syria if there were a clear gain from it, but this simply has not happend. All there is is a fairly low level of support, very minor cross border fire, and once in a blue moon an airstrike.Icewhiz (talk) 04:02, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- To be clear the WSJ article (which relays information from interviews with half a dozen alleged rebel fighters - so interesting, but not a statement of fact) has a claim by a rebel leader that his small village group is receiving 5,000$ a month from Israel. This isn't even peanuts - it is crumbs. The Fursan al-Julan group has 400 fighters (per WSJ), and the four other groups referenced by WSJ have per WSJ 400 more fighters (so 800 total) - which is a very-very small local Syrian organization. This is not a level of significant support, and it is definitely not something that places Israel as a belligerent.Icewhiz (talk) 05:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- I would imagine that in a war torn country, goods would at least as useful, or more useful, than money. So even if 5,000$ a month is a tiny sum (I agree), that only leaves significant amounts of food, fuel and medical supplies ..to quote the article. Not to mention the airstrikes (some mention below), which I assume do not come for free, Huldra (talk) 23:47, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Significant to whom..... To Israel not. To the small amount of villagers remaining in war torn Syria (in the Syrian Golan which was sparse to begin with), where an ethnic cleansing campaign is undergoing against Sunnies, it is probably most significant (as stated by sources). It is even of some military significance - as the Syrian regime has been attempting to starve out some of these Sunni settlements (and has succeeded elsewhere). However - supplying food, or even arms, is support at most - and does not make one a belligerent. The airstrikes against Hezbollah conveys are a separate matter - and Israel has carried out airstrikes in Syria in the past, not during war time - e.g. Ain es Saheb airstrike or the 1960s water project bombings - and these are allegedly directed at targets not related to the war (arms buildup of Hezbollah). The current level of alleged support does not even raise to significant supports - all the credible RSes are alleging less than peanuts - crumbs. And even claims in non-RS do not rise so much beyond this (perhaps a covert involvement, but covert - is covert - not formal). Had Israel been formally involved - there would be a much more significant firing of projectiles - e.g. see the mass of fire in the various Gaza wars/operations or Lebanon 2006.Icewhiz (talk) 05:34, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- They might be insignificant to Israel, but they are clearly significant to the rebels! And there are lots more sources covering the Israeli involvement than say, the Dutch, or the Norwegian involvement. Still these two countries are listed as "Main belligerents", while Israel is not, LOL! Its articles like this which make Wikipedia appear like a joke..Huldra (talk) 23:37, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Significant only to minor Sunni very local rebel groups in the Syrian Golan adjacent to Israeli turf - and not the main rebel groups in more populated areas (e.g. eastern Damascus and elsewhere). The Dutch have comitted an F-16 squadron - which is quite a bit of firepower - for daily operations over Iraq and Syria (mainly vs. Islamic State) - this is quite a bit more firepower than Israel has used.Icewhiz (talk) 18:54, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
- They might be insignificant to Israel, but they are clearly significant to the rebels! And there are lots more sources covering the Israeli involvement than say, the Dutch, or the Norwegian involvement. Still these two countries are listed as "Main belligerents", while Israel is not, LOL! Its articles like this which make Wikipedia appear like a joke..Huldra (talk) 23:37, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- Significant to whom..... To Israel not. To the small amount of villagers remaining in war torn Syria (in the Syrian Golan which was sparse to begin with), where an ethnic cleansing campaign is undergoing against Sunnies, it is probably most significant (as stated by sources). It is even of some military significance - as the Syrian regime has been attempting to starve out some of these Sunni settlements (and has succeeded elsewhere). However - supplying food, or even arms, is support at most - and does not make one a belligerent. The airstrikes against Hezbollah conveys are a separate matter - and Israel has carried out airstrikes in Syria in the past, not during war time - e.g. Ain es Saheb airstrike or the 1960s water project bombings - and these are allegedly directed at targets not related to the war (arms buildup of Hezbollah). The current level of alleged support does not even raise to significant supports - all the credible RSes are alleging less than peanuts - crumbs. And even claims in non-RS do not rise so much beyond this (perhaps a covert involvement, but covert - is covert - not formal). Had Israel been formally involved - there would be a much more significant firing of projectiles - e.g. see the mass of fire in the various Gaza wars/operations or Lebanon 2006.Icewhiz (talk) 05:34, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
- I would imagine that in a war torn country, goods would at least as useful, or more useful, than money. So even if 5,000$ a month is a tiny sum (I agree), that only leaves significant amounts of food, fuel and medical supplies ..to quote the article. Not to mention the airstrikes (some mention below), which I assume do not come for free, Huldra (talk) 23:47, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- To be clear the WSJ article (which relays information from interviews with half a dozen alleged rebel fighters - so interesting, but not a statement of fact) has a claim by a rebel leader that his small village group is receiving 5,000$ a month from Israel. This isn't even peanuts - it is crumbs. The Fursan al-Julan group has 400 fighters (per WSJ), and the four other groups referenced by WSJ have per WSJ 400 more fighters (so 800 total) - which is a very-very small local Syrian organization. This is not a level of significant support, and it is definitely not something that places Israel as a belligerent.Icewhiz (talk) 05:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- I am able to read English. And I actually follow just about every media (and I'll not also less reputable, though often informative, social media), in English, Arabic, and Hebrew report on Syria, as part of my day job. The support indicated by WSJ is a very small cash contribution and some supplies. Less reputable sources (though I will note I am inclined to believe them) indicate a bit more. However this is far from belligerent status, which would entail at the very least significant Israeli fire at Syria. Most Israelis woild not have a problem in intervening in Syria if there were a clear gain from it, but this simply has not happend. All there is is a fairly low level of support, very minor cross border fire, and once in a blue moon an airstrike.Icewhiz (talk) 04:02, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, it does not "indicated that Israeli is also providing some assistance", it clearly says "The Israeli authorities have provided significant amounts of cash, food, fuel and medical supplies to Sunni rebels fighting against Bashar al-Assad’s government." Why, oh why is it that suddenly people are not able to read English anymore? Huldra (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- See also: [6][7][8][9][10]. GABgab 23:05, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
- This is clearly referring to the Iran-Israel proxy conflict during the Syrian War. Most of the alleged incidents are not directly linked with Israel, but are suggested to be so. With 8 Air Force fleets operating in the skyes of Syria, it is a very long shot to claim which bombing was done by Israelis, while tens of thousands of airstrikes are performed by Ba'athist SAA, US, Russia, Turkey, and to a lesser degree others, like Jordan, UK, UAE, Saudia.GreyShark (dibra) 12:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
- Those sources are describing various levels of humanitarian aid. A better academic source for this is al-Tamimi.GreyShark (dibra) 18:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC)