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:I agree with you about suggestions 3 and 4, and I think that on closer inspection you'll see that saying it was "British-controlled" is too general (controlled how? Occupied? Part of the UK? A dependency? Colony?) when there was a specific term for it called the "British Mandate". That's where the civil war happened and I'm pretty sure that's what most RS use. Perhaps talknic can provide a reliable source calling it "British-controlled". [[User:No More Mr Nice Guy|No More Mr Nice Guy]] ([[User talk:No More Mr Nice Guy|talk]]) 17:23, 3 July 2012 (UTC) |
:I agree with you about suggestions 3 and 4, and I think that on closer inspection you'll see that saying it was "British-controlled" is too general (controlled how? Occupied? Part of the UK? A dependency? Colony?) when there was a specific term for it called the "British Mandate". That's where the civil war happened and I'm pretty sure that's what most RS use. Perhaps talknic can provide a reliable source calling it "British-controlled". [[User:No More Mr Nice Guy|No More Mr Nice Guy]] ([[User talk:No More Mr Nice Guy|talk]]) 17:23, 3 July 2012 (UTC) |
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::That's not true. All the actors anticipated far in advance of May 1948 that there would be a war if and when the state of Israel was declared. Ben-Gurion knew that as inevitable, and is on record as saying as much. This is a terribly complex matter, juridically and descriptively. Jordan, for example, wasn't recognized as a '''state''' at all by the United Nations, yet we summarily call it one here. It was not technically bound by any UN resolution. Glubb sent envoys to the Haganah weeks before the new war for clarification on what boundaries precisely would a future Israel consider its proper territorial boundaries. Would they stick to the partition borders, or did they consider all of Palestine their territorial objective? The Haganah gave no clear reply: that's up to the politicians, we just carry out orders, etc.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 17:38, 3 July 2012 (UTC) |
::That's not true. All the actors anticipated far in advance of May 1948 that there would be a war if and when the state of Israel was declared. Ben-Gurion knew that as inevitable, and is on record as saying as much. This is a terribly complex matter, juridically and descriptively. Jordan, for example, wasn't recognized as a '''state''' at all by the United Nations, yet we summarily call it one here. It was not technically bound by any UN resolution. Glubb sent envoys to the Haganah weeks before the new war for clarification on what boundaries precisely would a future Israel consider its proper territorial boundaries. Would they stick to the partition borders, or did they consider all of Palestine their territorial objective? The Haganah gave no clear reply: that's up to the politicians, we just carry out orders, etc.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 17:38, 3 July 2012 (UTC) |
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:::But for the Egyptian/Syrian/Iraqi/Jordanian/Lebanese intervention/invasion, the war would have remained localized. So the proposal for paragraph two is not just misleading, its actually wrong. At the very least, it's constitutes a fringe theory that is not accepted by mainstream scholarship and is rejected by most historians.--[[User:Jiujitsuguy|Jiujitsuguy]] ([[User talk:Jiujitsuguy|talk]]) 17:53, 3 July 2012 (UTC) |
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Intervention by Arab League countries
Because of various edits, this section contains material elsewhere in the article.
- Paragraph 1 is in the next section (though not verbatim).
- Paragraph 2, 4 and 5 are in the section The Arab League as a whole (though 2 not verbatim).
- Paragraph 3 is nowhere else but needs to go into the section, The Arab League as a whole.
I shall move paragraph 3 into the section The Arab League as a whole. I shall then delete the section, Intervention by Arab League countries. Trahelliven (talk) 00:59, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Foreign volunteers
This war was mainly between :
- 4 armies of the Arab League (Egypt, Transjordan, Irak, Syria)
and
- Israel
No other official army participated to this war. (For what concerns Lebanon, it was recently established by historian Yoav Gelber). The distinction has to be made between there armies and volunteers. Else, we should add Britain for both side and the USA and France for the Israeli side. That would be a biased pov. Exactly as it is a biased pov to state to list all the Arab states in the list of combattants 81.247.71.163 (talk) 07:05, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
:Not true. For example, Saudi Arabia sent a contingent of 800[1]–1,200[2][3] men. If the Saudi government sent them, they weren't "volunteers".--Jabotito48 (talk) 12:00, 28 May 2012 (UTC)''(sock of indef-blocked user)
- Nor Gelber p.55 or Morris p.205 writes that these were sent by the Saudi governement.
- More Gelber points out that they were "tribesmen" and Morris points out that these forces joined Arabs armies (and so were not part of the main 4 ones he refer to in the same page) : "The invading forces consisted, on 15 May, of about 20,000 combat troops : some 5500 Egyptians [...], 4500 to 6500 Arab Legionnaires, 2750 from Syria [...], and 2700 from Iraq [...]. He reminds also that Lebanese forces never enter or try to invade Palestine, which is used by Morris and Gelber.
- Instead of foreign volunteers, we can also write irregulars.
- 81.247.71.163 (talk) 13:17, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Lebanon
Lebanon didn't participate to the war. See eg : Benny Morris, '1948. A History of the First Arab-Israeli War', p.258 :
- "But at the last moment, Lebanon (...) opted out of the invasion. On 14 May President (...) and his army chief of staff, (...), decided against Lebanese participation; (...) [The] commander of the army's First Regiment (battalion), designated to cross into Israel, apparently refused to march. The Lebanese parliament, after bitter debate, ratified the decision the same day."
That should be taken into account in the caption. 81.247.97.117 (talk) 18:32, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
- They attack and occupied al-Malikiya in June (Morris p. 257). So they did enter Palestine, although in a very limited way and not on May 15. --Frederico1234 (talk) 19:08, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
- I checked on googlebook Morris 2004 p.257 and it is not mentionned (?). I doublecheck later today.
- Anyway, I am sure Gelber mentions somewhere these attacks but they were not the fact of official Lebanese soldiers. ALA was redeployed before 15 May north of Galilee to replace Lebanese army that had defected in order to protect Syrian flank. They attacked from North. Lebanese goverment and high rank officeers had declined the attack (see above). It is true that Christian officeers localy didn't prevent some of their Muslim soldiers to 'leave' their unit to join the ALA in these attacks but Lebanese forces didn't participate (as pointed out just here above) and the exact number is not known. What is sure is that the ALA counted several thousands soldiers. I think Gelber explains that given uniforms were all the same, Palmach soldiers concluded wrongly these were Lebanese soldiers given the attack came from Lebanon but they were from the Arab Liberation Army. I will check and provide the source if we agree that we will not epilogate weeks on this and just comply with what latest and more reliable 2nd sources state : "4 Arab States invaded Palestine". I think we should solve that caption issues once for all. What happens with all these reverts is a childish attitude. 91.180.65.140 (talk) 07:53, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- Oops. The Morris book I referred to was the "1948" book, not the "Birth of..." book. Sorry for the confusion. --Frederico1234 (talk) 09:04, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Frederico,
- Thank you for the information. I was not aware (or I had forgotten) this event on June 5.
- Here is what I referred to (Yoav Gelber, Palestine 1948, p.139) : "Confuding the ALA remnants in Galilee with Syrian and Lebanese regular troops, the 'Haganah' referred to all of them as "regular Arab army". On May 15, Yiftah brigade reported a fierce battle with invading Lebanese troops at Malkiya. These were, however, local combatants and remains of Shishakli's Yarmuk battalion. (...) The military's Christian commanders refused to involve the army in the battle, but allowed Muslim soldiers to join the ALA and the Syrian army. Only 300 troopers chose to take advantage of this opportunity."
- I hope that this convinces everybody and that we can come back to the former caption.
- 81.247.87.96 (talk) 05:14, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Oops. The Morris book I referred to was the "1948" book, not the "Birth of..." book. Sorry for the confusion. --Frederico1234 (talk) 09:04, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
David Markus and Glubb Pacha were Foreign volunteers of US and British nationality. If we don't use US and British flags for them because, as an editor pointed this out, they didn't represent USA and British, they we should remove the flags of Lebanon, Saudi-Arabi, Pakistan etc because these volunteers didn't represent these countries either. What do you think about this ? 81.247.97.117 (talk) 18:32, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
- i agree we should also remove those flags.Dalai lama ding dong (talk) 20:57, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
:False. A token force of 1,000 was committed by Lebanon to the invasion. It crossed into the northern Galilee and was repulsed by Israeli forces. Israel then invaded and occupied southern Lebanon until the end of the war.[4] Saudi Arabia sent a contingent of 800[5]–1,200[6][7] men, therefore they were not "volunteers".--8HGasma (talk) 23:43, 10 June 2012 (UTC) (sock of indef-blocked user)
- That is exactly what the sock of Jabotito48 wrote here above : ":Not true. For example, Saudi Arabia sent a contingent of 800[1]–1,200[2][3] men. If the Saudi government sent them, they weren't "volunteers".--Jabotito48 (talk) 12:00, 28 May 2012 (UTC)(sock of indef-blocked user)" and I explained to him why he was wrong here above too. 81.247.176.216 (talk) 17:00, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- Personnaly, I would prefer that we keep all the flags and that we precise what was the nationality of Markus and Glubb Pacha. Without the agreement of their respective governments, all these people could not have participated. It is not a detail that David Markus had the highest rank in the IDF at the time whereas he had not the Israeli nationality and it is the same for Glubb Pacha. This information is provided by the historians when they refer to the events.
- @ 8HGasma : You just copied/pasted what is in the article without reading. Nor Lebanon or Saudi Arabia sent forces. These were volunteers from Beduin tribes. I will provide the source but this becomes childish : historian refer to the 4 armies that invaded Palestine (some of the 5 but Morris and Gelber recently indicated it was a mistake and that Lebanon didn't participate to the war - see above). 91.180.65.140 (talk) 07:44, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- Referring here above to the fact that the Lebanese troops who fought in the war were volunteers and were not sent by their government and that they didn't represent this, we have to :
- whether put the flag of Lebanon but also the flag of the US next to Markus and Britain next to Glubb
- remove all flags.
- It is a relevant information that can be found in all history books on the '48 war that Markus was US citizen, Glubb British and Lebanese volunteers, Lebanese.
- 81.247.87.96 (talk) 05:18, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Referring here above to the fact that the Lebanese troops who fought in the war were volunteers and were not sent by their government and that they didn't represent this, we have to :
Conclusion
Unless other minds are given, I will modify the caption as follows :
- indicate there were 4 Arab armies (without Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and even less Yemen)
- add the US flag and the UK flag for Markus and Glubb.
91.180.64.65 (talk) 06:22, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Is there any comment ? Pluto2012 (talk) 07:15, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think there's a difference between Glubb and Marcus. Glubb was working for the British as well as the Jordanians. As far as I can remember, Marcus wasn't working for the US government. They knew he was there, but he wasn't working for them, IIRC. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:25, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- Glubb was not working for the British. He was on the pay roll of the Jordanian army and was fidel to Abdallah. This is pointed out by Benny Morris in his book about him : The Road to Jerusalem.
- And even if Glubb was collaborating with the British, it is relevant to state that they were foreigners. The participation of volunteers is well known (as well British in Jordanian army as Mahal for Israeli).
- More, if we focus on Marcus : his status is exactly the same as the one of the other volunteers of the Yemen, Lebanon, Soudan etc.
- If we put a flag for Yemen (which is anecdotical) we should put a flag for Marcus and Glubb who were key actors of the war.
- By the way, I don't see a problem with these flags. Pluto2012 (talk) 08:18, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- To be honest, I think putting a flag next to individuals who were not representing the governments of the countries those flags belong to is ridiculous. The flags belong to countries and should be used if the country itself was somehow involved, not if people from those countries acting as individuals were. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:14, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- Agree with NMMNG. Marcus acted in a private capacity and did not represent the United States. The United States was not a combatant. By contrast, There are reliable sources that attest to Lebanese, Saudi and Yemen participation and not in an insubstantial way. Also, these governments expressed views (at least openly) that were consistent with the general militarist Arab position.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 22:55, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- Whatever the choice, it has to be consistent.
- If Marcus and Glubb are not referred by their nationality but by the side for which they fought, we have to remove the flags referring to Lebanon and all other countries and put a Palestinian flag or the ALA flag. There are as many reliable sources on the topic that remind that Marcus was US citizen, Glubb British citizen and that Arab volunteers came from the whole Arab world.
- Pluto2012 (talk) 07:42, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think the criterion for including a flag should be involvement of a government. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 08:27, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
- Agree with NMMNG. Marcus acted in a private capacity and did not represent the United States. The United States was not a combatant. By contrast, There are reliable sources that attest to Lebanese, Saudi and Yemen participation and not in an insubstantial way. Also, these governments expressed views (at least openly) that were consistent with the general militarist Arab position.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 22:55, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- To be honest, I think putting a flag next to individuals who were not representing the governments of the countries those flags belong to is ridiculous. The flags belong to countries and should be used if the country itself was somehow involved, not if people from those countries acting as individuals were. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:14, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think there's a difference between Glubb and Marcus. Glubb was working for the British as well as the Jordanians. As far as I can remember, Marcus wasn't working for the US government. They knew he was there, but he wasn't working for them, IIRC. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:25, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- Is there any comment ? Pluto2012 (talk) 07:15, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
I think the cases of Glubb and Marcus are quite different from that of Lebanon. WRT Lebanon, we have reliable sources, historians, that state that Lebanon sent a force of several hundred or perhaps a thousand troops. Lebanon was also a member of the Arab league that rejected the partition plan and declared its intention to use force to prevent its implementation. In such a scenario, even if it later chose to create plausible deniability by "only" arming Lebanese "volunteers", and allowing them to use Lebanese soil as traning and staging areas for an invasion, this qualifies as Lebanese actions - as historians note. It is similar to the undeniable involvement of the US in the Bay of Pigs invasion. Eat memory (talk) 12:25, 21 June 2012 (UTC) In further support of what I wrote above, it is instructive to look at what another academic source says: "the Arab League's Arab Liberation Army (ALA)... operated from or near Lebanese territory with the official or tacit support of the Lebanese government" [1] Eat memory (talk) 12:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
- With the same reasonning, you can add Soviet Union on the Israeli side given Stalin ordered no to respect the UN umbargo and to supply Israel with heavy weapons and ammunitions after having pronounced for the Partition.
- Pluto2012 (talk) 09:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Spyflight
The spyflight source, which is the primary one with regards to the Anglo-Israeli dogfights, notes that there have been rumors, though unconfirmed, that RAF pilots from the squadron that lost 5 planes and 2 pilots to the IAF privately took their revenge by shooting down any Israeli planes they encountered, including transports. I put it in twice, and each time I later found it gone. I would like to know why it isn't suitable to put it in there, as it's too late for me to dig up an explanation (if there ever was one) in the history.--RM (Be my friend) 03:30, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- http://spyflight.co.uk seems to be the personal project of one person who is not named there. I don't see how it satisfies WP:RS, in fact it seems to me rather clear that it doesn't. Can you offer an argument why we should accept it as a source? Zerotalk 02:06, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Multiple and ongoing issues littering the Lede.
NOTE FOR ALL at bottom of the whole talknic (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
The opening paragraph:
- The 1948 Arab–Israeli War, known to Israelis as the War of Independence (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות or מלחמת הקוממיות, Milkhemet Ha'atzma'ut or Milkhemet Hakomemmiyut or Hebrew: מלחמת השחרור, Milkhemet Hashikhrur literally "war of liberation")13—was fought between the State of Israel and a military coalition of Arab states and Palestinian Arab forces. It was the first in a series of wars in the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict.
Contains only numerous Israeli/Hebrew names for the war, in contravention of NPOV. Suggest this be addressed, there are at least six other parties.
- Caught my eye too. How is it called in Arabic? Or, more to the point, why is Arabic omitted? -DePiep (talk) 23:18, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
- Suggestion 01: // The 1948 Arab–Israeli War, known to Israelis as the War of Independence (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות or מלחמת הקוממיות, Milkhemet Ha'atzma'ut or Milkhemet Hakomemmiyut or Hebrew: מלחמת השחרור, Milkhemet Hashikhrur literally "war of liberation")13. The war was known to the Arabs/Palestinians by different names according to the relevant time frame in the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The 1948 war was fought between the State of Israel and a military coalition of Arab states and Palestinian Arab forces. It was the first in a series of wars in the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict.// talknic (talk) 21:47, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- Suggestion 01: // The 1948 Arab–Israeli War, known to Israelis as the War of Independence (Hebrew: מלחמת העצמאות or מלחמת הקוממיות, Milkhemet Ha'atzma'ut or Milkhemet Hakomemmiyut or Hebrew: מלחמת השחרור, Milkhemet Hashikhrur literally "war of liberation")13. The war was known to the Arabs/Palestinians by different names according to the relevant time frame in the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The 1948 war was fought between the State of Israel and a military coalition of Arab states and Palestinian Arab forces. It was the first in a series of wars in the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict.// talknic (talk) 21:47, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- Caught my eye too. How is it called in Arabic? Or, more to the point, why is Arabic omitted? -DePiep (talk) 23:18, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Comment. The point on the lack of corresponding Arabic names is very well taken, and requires adjustment. In a note on terminology, Reuven Firestone writes:-
'To Jews, the Jewish.Arab war of 1947-1948 is the War of Independence (milchemet ha'atzma'ut). To Arabs, and especially Palestinians, it is the nakba or calamity. I therefore refrain from assigning names to wars. . I refer to the wars between the State of Israel and its Arab and Palestinian neighbors according to their dates: 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1982.' Reuven Firestone,Holy War in Judaism: The Fall and Rise of a Controversial Idea, Oxford University Press, 2012 p.10
This is eminently alert to sensitivities on both sides. Nota bene that one of the terms cited here,Milkhemet Ha'atzma'ut is said by Firestone, who ought to know, to refer not, as the lead says, to the specific 1948 war, but to the preceding civil war and the May 15 onwards 1948 war. If that is so, then we are using a term that has a far more extended meaning in hebrew than the sense we give it restrictively here. Secondly, we need both nakba and the contemporary terms used predominantly in the Arabic-language press as per WP:NPOV balance. Nishidani (talk) 17:11, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- There was an RfC about including Nakba which failed. May I once again suggest you read the archives? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:39, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- Correction: The RfC was about bolding "Nakba". The term is already in the lead per consensus reached around the same time as the RfC. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:52, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the alternative proposed, however, esp. since it is somewhat vague and diffuse.
Second paragraph 1)
The war was preceded by a period of civil war in the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine between Jewish Yishuv forces and Palestinian Arab forces in response to the UN Partition Plan.
A) The correct and only English title for the mandate was the ["Mandate for Palestine"]. "for" being the operative word.
B) It clouds the issue to say "the territory of the British Mandate" or the "the territory of the Mandate for Palestine". It could be taken to include TransJordan. The civil war did not extent to TransJordan nor was it a part of '47 partition. The civil war took place in Palestine
Suggestion: //The war was preceded by a period of civil war from November 1947 till May 14th 1948 in British controlled Palestine, where Jewish Yishuv forces and Palestinian Arabs clashed in response to the UN Partition Plan.//
- The above issue was Resolved: See discussion below Line 139 NMMNG has since reverted [2] a statement reached by agreement between two editors - Restored by Dalai lama ding dong (concensus of three)talknic (talk) 08:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- The above issue was Resolved: See discussion below Line 139 NMMNG has since reverted [2] a statement reached by agreement between two editors - Restored by Dalai lama ding dong (concensus of three)talknic (talk) 08:17, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Second paragraph 2)
- An alliance of Arab States intervened on the Palestinian side, turning the civil war into a war between sovereign states.14
As is, it infers the Arab States "turned the civil war". The source does not say 'who' turned the war into a war between sovereign states. It says this : "A war between Israel and the Arab States broke out immediately, and the Arab armies invaded Palestine. This clash continued the civil war that started after the UN resolution on partition, but differed from its predecessor in being a confrontation between sovereign states employing regular armies." To reflect the source more accurately:
Suggestion: //An alliance of Arab States intervened on the Palestinian side and the preceding civil war turned into a war between sovereign states.[3] //
Second paragraph 3)
- The fighting took place mostly on the former territory of the British Mandate and for a short time also in the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon.15
Not supported by the source and it is quite misleading. "the former territory of the British Mandate" could include Jordanian territory and what became Israeli territory. The UNSC resolutions and Armistice Agreements of the time call for peace in "Palestine", not Israel, not Jordan, not "the former territory of the British Mandate". The Armistice Agreements do not contain the word Mandate at all!
Secondary sources citing the Armistice Agreements, cease fires, Peace treaties should accurately reflect those documents. to be RS
Two entities existed after Israel was declared May 15th 1948. Palestine and Israel, delineated from Israel by Israel in statements to the UNSC by the Provisional Govt of Israel May 22nd 1848 and; called "Palestine" by the UNSC.
Suggestion: //The fighting took place mostly in Palestine [4] and for a short time also in the Sinai Peninsula and southern Lebanon. //
Second paragraph 4)
- The war concluded with the 1949 Armistice Agreements, which established Armistice Demarcation Lines between Israeli and Arab military forces, commonly known as the Green Line.
A) The Green line is actually from the ceasefire agreement Nov 30 1948 prior to the Armistice Agreements of 1949. The Armistice's and cease fire specifically did not change any borders, futhermore they were all between existing states. Palestine has never had an Armistice Agreement or Peace Treaty with Israel.
B) As mentioned above: None of the Armistice Agreements have the word/s "Mandate" or "former" or "territory of" or "British Mandate"! They name both "Israel" AND "Palestine"
Suggestion: //The war concluded with the 1949 Armistice Agreements, which established Armistice Demarcation Lines between Israeli and Arab military forces in Palestine. A cease fire line of 30th Nov 1948 became commonly known as the Green Line. [5]//
- Articles should accurately reflect their sources. The sources must accurately reflect the documents they cite to be RS.
Suggest these points be addressed with RS Secondary Sources talknic (talk) 16:38, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Pre-Delineated Discussion
- On first look, none of these changes seem particularly controversial. I think you need a hyphen in British-controlled Palestine (I'm not completely sure if controlled in this case is an adjective, in which case you'd use a hyphen or the past form of a verb, in which case you wouldn't). I don't agree with your wording in paragraph 2 - it is clear that the Arab states' decision to intervene was the immediate cause of the war entering a new phase. I would insert the word Mandatory before Palestine in your suggestion in 3 to disambiguate the multiple uses of the term Palestine.GabrielF (talk) 18:33, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- GabrielF - OK hypenated British-controlled Second Paragraph 1 //The war was preceded by a period of civil war from November 1947 till May 14th 1948 in British-controlled Palestine, where Jewish Yishuv forces and Palestinian Arabs clashed in response to the UN Partition Plan.// Done!.
- Second Paragraph 2 - A new phase began the moment the Israeli Declaration became effective "at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time" [6]. With Jewish forces already outside of Israel, by default the civil war immediately became a war between the State of Israel and the non-self-governing territory of Palestine.
- Another new phase when the Arab states invaded "Palestine". (The Independent State of Israel was no longer in or a part of Palestine [7]). The current source says "continued the civil war that started after the UN resolution on partition, but differed from its predecessor in being a confrontation between sovereign states employing regular armies" The "war" differed from the "civil war".
- Second Paragraph 3 "insert the word Mandatory before Palestine in your suggestion in 3 to disambiguate the multiple uses of the term Palestine"
- Why? There was no Mandatory as of May 14, 1948, on the day in which the British Mandate over a Palestine expired.
- The Provisional Israeli Government acknowledged the delineation of Israel from Palestine in it's statements to the UNSC May 22nd 1848. The continual use of "the territory of" "Mandatory Palestine"/"British Mandate"/"British Mandate of/for Palestine" is fog, requiring readers to go elsewhere to try to ascertain what it means, only to find more fog talknic (talk) 09:13, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree with all the suggestions above, most of which were discussed at length before talknic got topic banned, and failed to gain consensus. Coming back over and over with the same stuff is just tendentious. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 05:10, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks Talknic, very good work and well-reasoned proposals. I hope Pluto2012 notes them and comments. He is the outstanding wiki editor on this period, and anything he says is usually spot on. I can't myself see anything objectionable here.Nishidani (talk) 22:07, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- Is Zero an acceptable editor? He was one of the people who supported "former territory of the British Mandate". Check the archives. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:33, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
- NMMNG -- Zero? The agreeing editors thus far are talknic, Gabriel, Nishidani, Dalai lama ding dong. I believe that's 4:1 consensus on Second paragraph 1)
- None of the Armistice Agreements ending the fighting have the word/s "Mandate" or "former" or "territory of" or "British Mandate"! They name both "Israel" AND "Palestine". Weasel words have no place here. Please undo your revert, or I will ... thx talknic (talk) 22:10, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
- The comment about Zero was to Nishidani. I hope he reads the archives and sees the previous, what, 5 times you tried to make some of these changes?
- If in a few days there's a consensus to change the text you can do so. In the meanwhile I suggest you read WP:BRD. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 01:15, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- NMMNG -- Perhaps if you had the courtesy to address your comments.. thx. [[User:Zero0000|Zero]? or Pluto2012? BTW It is irrelevant how many times one attempts to bring about changes while the existing dialogue in articles appears to be flawed. The notion of being an editor is to remove flaws by working towards agreement. Arguing facts, not personalities. Not making misrepresentations and; without ignoring questions
- Meanwhile, I suggest you read WP:BRD yourself, an essay BTW, which never the less says: "BRD is not a policy. This means it is not a process that you can require other editors to follow. "
- "If in a few days there's a consensus to change the text you can do so" Oh? Is this yours "I added a source for the PP not being implemented." without the same consensus you demand here? talknic (talk) 14:12, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with NMMNG. I don't see Talknc's suggestions as an improvement. In fact, some of his suggested modifications are somewhat misleading, as pointed out by GabrielF. I would oppose these changes.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 14:19, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- Talknic's gone to some considerable trouble to examine minutely an old area of controversy. He presented to us several points, and his proposed emendations. To just reply and say, I don't like this stuff, is not helping him, nor the page. If there are criticisms based on the same grasp of the issues he shows, please be forthcoming with them. I myself have suggested one of our resident experts review it, since I don't trust my own judgement on such complex historical issues. But they strike me as serious, well-formulated proposals,-unless I am mistaken Gabriel also had the courtesy of suggesting they merited attention, -and are in the works. You just don't vote them away or refer vaguely to past discussions. That is not collegial.Nishidani (talk) 15:08, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- Could we discuss them one at a time though. I thought most looked OK but would like to see other comments. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:16, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- Nish, When the same person brings the same issues to the same talk page over and over and over again, do you really expect other editors to reply at length with the same arguments? Take a look at the archives before you call something not collegial. You'll see several editors addressed these points multiple times. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:40, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- NMMNG --- The issues remain. Please address them talknic (talk) 16:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- NMMNG. I can't see in the archives where point 1 is adequately addressed, for starters. But, sure, I'm a complete fuckwit when it comes to searching wikipedia, and may have missed something. GabrielF and Gatoclass both see merit on at least one point he's raised, and so, rather than just waving it away (it's tempting: we all get tired of these things), along with the rest, I think we should take each on its merits. By all means, ignore the rest if you think it's resolved, or naysay. Nishidani (talk) 17:25, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- How many times do you expect me to address the same issues? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:29, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- NMMNG --- I don't 'expect' you to do anything. You're here of your own accord. There are a number of new issues raised and new supporting evidence provided. As I explained here This again? wasn't and the points I gave to show it was not "This again?" you completely ignored talknic (talk) 17:50, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- NMMNG --- The issues remain. Please address them talknic (talk) 16:14, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- Is Zero an acceptable editor? He was one of the people who supported "former territory of the British Mandate". Check the archives. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:33, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
NOTE FOR ALL - Sorry I should have seen this coming. I have now delineated each issue. Where possible we could move some discussion to it's appropriate place? Yes? No? talknic (talk) 16:44, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure about suggestion 1, I would have to examine that more closely. I support suggestion 2 as an example of neutral phrasing. Suggestions 3 and 4 I am not keen on, as a large chunk of "Palestine" had already been recognized internationally as the new state of Israel by this time; also it implies the existence of a state called Palestine, which as we know has still not come into existence. Gatoclass (talk) 17:00, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree about suggestion 2. The war did not turn into an international conflict on its own. Had the Arab states not intervened, this would not have happened. So the intervention of the Arab states is what turned it into an international conflict.
- I agree with you about suggestions 3 and 4, and I think that on closer inspection you'll see that saying it was "British-controlled" is too general (controlled how? Occupied? Part of the UK? A dependency? Colony?) when there was a specific term for it called the "British Mandate". That's where the civil war happened and I'm pretty sure that's what most RS use. Perhaps talknic can provide a reliable source calling it "British-controlled". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:23, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- That's not true. All the actors anticipated far in advance of May 1948 that there would be a war if and when the state of Israel was declared. Ben-Gurion knew that as inevitable, and is on record as saying as much. This is a terribly complex matter, juridically and descriptively. Jordan, for example, wasn't recognized as a state at all by the United Nations, yet we summarily call it one here. It was not technically bound by any UN resolution. Glubb sent envoys to the Haganah weeks before the new war for clarification on what boundaries precisely would a future Israel consider its proper territorial boundaries. Would they stick to the partition borders, or did they consider all of Palestine their territorial objective? The Haganah gave no clear reply: that's up to the politicians, we just carry out orders, etc.Nishidani (talk) 17:38, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- But for the Egyptian/Syrian/Iraqi/Jordanian/Lebanese intervention/invasion, the war would have remained localized. So the proposal for paragraph two is not just misleading, its actually wrong. At the very least, it's constitutes a fringe theory that is not accepted by mainstream scholarship and is rejected by most historians.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 17:53, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- That's not true. All the actors anticipated far in advance of May 1948 that there would be a war if and when the state of Israel was declared. Ben-Gurion knew that as inevitable, and is on record as saying as much. This is a terribly complex matter, juridically and descriptively. Jordan, for example, wasn't recognized as a state at all by the United Nations, yet we summarily call it one here. It was not technically bound by any UN resolution. Glubb sent envoys to the Haganah weeks before the new war for clarification on what boundaries precisely would a future Israel consider its proper territorial boundaries. Would they stick to the partition borders, or did they consider all of Palestine their territorial objective? The Haganah gave no clear reply: that's up to the politicians, we just carry out orders, etc.Nishidani (talk) 17:38, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
- ^ Gelber, p.55
- ^ Uthman Hasan Salih, DAWR AL-MAMLAKA AL-`ARABIYYA AL-SA`UDIYYA FI HARB FILASIN 1367H/1948 (The role of Saudi Arabia in the Palestine war of 1948), Revue d'Histoire Maghrébine [Tunisia] 1986 13(43–44): 201–221. ISSN: 0330-8987.
- ^ Morris, 2008, p. 205. Morris cites British diplomatic communications.
- ^ Rogan & Shlaim, 2001, p. 8.
- ^ Gelber, p.55
- ^ Uthman Hasan Salih, DAWR AL-MAMLAKA AL-`ARABIYYA AL-SA`UDIYYA FI HARB FILASIN 1367H/1948 (The role of Saudi Arabia in the Palestine war of 1948), Revue d'Histoire Maghrébine [Tunisia] 1986 13(43–44): 201–221. ISSN: 0330-8987.
- ^ Morris, 2008, p. 205. Morris cites British diplomatic communications.