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: Have you read the Wikipedia policy on [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability]]? The 'What counts as a reliable source' section says that 'Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy'. Do you have any evidence that the PLC site meets any of these criteria? [[User:NotFromUtrecht|NotFromUtrecht]] ([[User talk:NotFromUtrecht|talk]]) 16:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC) |
: Have you read the Wikipedia policy on [[Wikipedia:Verifiability|verifiability]]? The 'What counts as a reliable source' section says that 'Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy'. Do you have any evidence that the PLC site meets any of these criteria? [[User:NotFromUtrecht|NotFromUtrecht]] ([[User talk:NotFromUtrecht|talk]]) 16:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC) |
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Do you have evidence that the PLC does not meet the criteria? If so please bring it here. Otherwise please desist from deleting bona fide edits that contain links. The poll happened, to call it into question is to call the well known lobby group liars. Are you prepared to do that? |
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==Request information on women travelling to places other than the UK== |
==Request information on women travelling to places other than the UK== |
Revision as of 16:44, 3 March 2012
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opinion polls
I restored an edit that removed an opinion poll conducted by RedC. They are a reputable polling company. The poll was commissioned, as most polls are, by an outside organization, in this case a political lobbying group. I suggest that the on-line poll that is just above it be considered for removal. Online polls are notoriously unreliable and do not have the same standards when it comes to sample. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liamfoley (talk • contribs) 08:47, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Some editors insist on removing polls commissioned by the Pro Life Campaign. While they are indeed a lobby group the poll in question was conducted by RedC, a reputable polling company. To say that the Pro Life Campaign website is not reliable is to suggest that they are lying is tantamount to saying that they are deliberately misleading, even lying. Now, I would ask is Wikipedia, are they prepared to stand by a remark like that? Since when are secondary sources considered more reliable than primary ones? Other polls in the same section are accepted despite question marks surrounding them, e.g. an online poll commissioned by the Irish Examiner, online polls are hardly representative of the population at large and do not have the random element that other polls have. Another survey conducted by the Royal College of Surgeons is also included. While the college is known for it's teaching I don't think its quiet the same as RedC. I'm very suspicious of edits that censor legitimate polls conducted by reputable polling companies on behalf of well known lobby groups. Liamfoley (talk) 21:17, 29 February 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liamfoley (talk • contribs) 21:09, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
- Prove that Red C conducted the poll. They don't say they conducted it and reliable sources don't say they conducted it. PLC is not a reliable source for claims about what other organizations have done. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Te PLC is a perfectly reliable source. It is a reputable lobby group. The reference on their page is evidence, the lack of a response from RedC can also constitute evidence. If the PLC were making a false claim RedC would have asked them to remove the poll and/or taken legal action. The web page has been up for a year and RecC haven't objected. As I said before simply not liking a result is not reason enough to remove an entry with a reference. Liamfoley (talk) 08:44, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I look forward to hearing the results of your lawyer's claim that you have the right to publish already-copyrighted material because the owners didn't complain quickly enough, or that it's perfectly legitimate to claim that Barack Obama co-wrote a book with you if only you publish it without asking first and he doesn't lodge a complaint. But seriously, no, it doesn't work that way. Red C has an archive of all the polls they've conducted; do you think that Red C decided not to archive this one because they didn't think I'd like the results? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:04, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Te PLC is a perfectly reliable source. It is a reputable lobby group. The reference on their page is evidence, the lack of a response from RedC can also constitute evidence. If the PLC were making a false claim RedC would have asked them to remove the poll and/or taken legal action. The web page has been up for a year and RecC haven't objected. As I said before simply not liking a result is not reason enough to remove an entry with a reference. Liamfoley (talk) 08:44, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Sarcasm truly is the lowest form of wit. If you can't discuss this with some basic manners then you should consider stepping back. You have no proof that the poll never took place and the story on the Pro Life Campaign website is reliable. The RedC archive is not an archive of all their polls. Archives by their nature don't store everything. The Pro Life Campaign are a reputable body, just because you don't like their position does not mean they are unreliable or lying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liamfoley (talk • contribs) 14:08, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- Have you read the Wikipedia policy on verifiability? The 'What counts as a reliable source' section says that 'Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy'. Do you have any evidence that the PLC site meets any of these criteria? NotFromUtrecht (talk) 16:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Do you have evidence that the PLC does not meet the criteria? If so please bring it here. Otherwise please desist from deleting bona fide edits that contain links. The poll happened, to call it into question is to call the well known lobby group liars. Are you prepared to do that?
Request information on women travelling to places other than the UK
Is there any information available on whether Irish women travel to countries other than the UK for abortions? It always seems to be assumed that they go there. Also, the sharp growth in the immigrant population in the last few years must mean that many immigrant women are returning to their countries for abortions. Any info on this? --Dub8lad1 00:35, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
- I wasn't able to find any information. I don't think the assumption is made that all women go to the UK for an abortion. If you do feel like it suggests that women only go to the UK for their abortions then may I suggest that where the estimates for those travelling to the UK for abortions are given that you add something along the lines of, "No estimates have been found for women travelling to countries other than the UK for an abortion." I think this is about the only sentence you could validly add until you found some figures - anything else (even if it is a fair assumption) is just an assumption. Jgillett 12:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Update
Removed this phrase: "other than, whatever about the practicalities, in theory most Irish voters believe that a 'fetus' has a right to life equal to that of the pregnant woman [citation needed], so excluding the option of choosing abortion, except in the limited grounds decided upon judicially in the 'X Case' judgment, which the Irish people in referenda have refused to narrow when offered that option." as unsubstantiated and nonsensical. Also, more information would be nice on the C and D cases - I'm too close to this to provide an unbiased opinion. Supersheep 16:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Possible Typo
The article states that there was a motion that read “That this Assembly opposes the introduction of the proposed guidelines n the termination of pregnancy in Northern Ireland; believes that the guidelines are flawed; and calls on the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safelty to abandon any attempt to make abortion more widely available in Northern Ireland.” I believe that 'n' should be 'in', however I am hesitant to make this "correction" because it is within a quote and so there may be a chance that the typographical error was actually in the statement. If someone knows where to read the contents of the motion and could figure this out, it would great. --Credema (talk) 07:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
YOu are right, its a typo. I corrected it. The motion can be seen in Hansard. Eodon
Clarification?
The article currently reads "except whenever the mother is in danger from continuing the pregnancy.". Does this mean life or health, an if health, what definition of health? ✏✎✍✌✉✈✇✆✃✄Ⓠ‽ (talk) 21:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC) ~~Abortion and National Health~~ Is abortion in the UK covered by National Health? If so, it probably means Irishwomen going from the Republic to England would have to pay for the abortion themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.156.43.8 (talk) 13:36, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Polling by Pro Life Campaign
I removed a bit that was not supported by a reliable source:
A February 2011 Pro Life Campaign/RedC poll found that 68% support constitutional protection for the unborn (the existing situation), 26% oppose it and 5% don’t know or have no opinion. It was a quota controlled sample of 1,025 people aged 18+ and was conducted between 8th – 10th February.
- Pro Life Campaign "Sizeable majority supports legal protection of unborn child"
At the Red C page listing archived polls, the supposed Pro Life poll is not listed. I doubt that Red C carried out this poll. Binksternet (talk) 15:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Discussed above (non-chronological order), and I agree. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
According to the notional citation, Dr Berry Kiely of Pro Life Campaign relayed this poll information to the Irish press on 16 February 2011. At about the same time the previous year, Kiely told the press the same basic story, but she substituted Millward Brown Lansdowne as the polling agency. Here's a graphic representation of the early 2010 results. The PLC graphic is ridiculous in that its second pie chart contradicts the first, with falsely inflated numbers of 'yes' respondents manufactured from 'I don't know' respondents, but even then with wrong maths results. Who is in charge at PLC?
The reported poll question itself, the same question supposedly asked in 2010 and 2011, is highly skewed toward producing a positive response. It tricks the responder to agree with "the continuation of the existing practice" though the question is actually about whether the constitution should be changed. A far greater negative response would be obtained by asking whether the constitution should be changed in such-and-such a manner.
Just like Red C, Millard Brown Lansdowne do not list the PLC poll in their archives. I seriously question whether the poll was conducted at all. Veteran pollsters would immediately see the skewed and leading poll question as unsuitable. I believe Kiely is fabricating her results and fudging her maths. Binksternet (talk) 15:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Agree. The claim is from a self-serving, self-promoting, self-published advocacy site with no reputation for fact checking, and the fact that it can't be verified by referring to Red C's listings casts grave doubts on the veracity of the claim, especially in light of the situation with Millward Brown Lansdowne, which likewise could not be verified. Since the claim involves a third party, it cannot be included in any WP article. Even brief mention with in-line citation is a gross violation of policy. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 12:12, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Illegal abortion in Ireland
Does anyone know of any good sources documenting the rate of illegal abortions occuring within Ireland? Research on sub-Saharan African countries has shown that abortion rates are not significantly lower in countries where abortion is illegal... but in Ireland there is the 'abortion tourism' factor owing to links with the UK. Pretty much the only reliable source I've found is this one: http://www.imn.ie/clinical/clinical-focus/womans-health/2898-risk-assessment-for-cvd-an-update- We should include some material on illegal abortion in Ireland if there are reliable sources showing the subject's notability. Do people think the source I just linked to is sufficient in itself? NotFromUtrecht (talk) 12:51, 2 March 2012 (UTC)