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::::See [[WP:CG]] and [[WP:V#Burden_of_evidence]]. Nice essay on your page but I missed the part about how it superseded WP policies. ;-) BTW, welcome back. :-) cheers, [[User:Jim Butler|Jim Butler]]<sup>([[User talk:Jim Butler|talk]])</sup> 16:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC) |
::::See [[WP:CG]] and [[WP:V#Burden_of_evidence]]. Nice essay on your page but I missed the part about how it superseded WP policies. ;-) BTW, welcome back. :-) cheers, [[User:Jim Butler|Jim Butler]]<sup>([[User talk:Jim Butler|talk]])</sup> 16:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC) |
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So come on then, where are the scientific papers from controlled trials in peer-reviewed journals demonstrating it is science? The burdon of proof is on those who follow this sort of stuff, not the other way round. — [[user:Duncharris|Dunc]]|[[User talk:duncharris|☺]] 21:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:08, 8 July 2006
The otzi tattoos with acupressure are all speculation. Not all of the points on him are equivalent to the meridian system. Further, no one knows as to their function - decorative vs. relgious (warding off evil) vs. medical. To state that the Otzi mummy possessed parasites and arthritis is pointless, as thousands of years ago, everyone had arthritis, parasites, and disease. Kennethtennyson 23:45, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
-- There is no discussion in this article of the efficacy of acupressure, nor any links to peer-reviewed studies of same. ONe science based criticism of acupuncture/acupressure can be found at the National Council Against Health Fraud's web site: http://www.ncahf.org/pp/acu.html
Puff removal
I disagree on the statement removal. (I was the one who added it) I wanted to say that 'even if the whole theory of Acupressure is complete bunk that doesn't mean you can't still enjoy it.' Don't you think that is a worthy statement? In the sense of, the article need not to be entirely about the science, and the merits of said science, of Acupressure theory. MaxMangel 12:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
- In my opinion, acupressure is a belief system. Partititioners and patients believe it works regardless whether it is scientifically sound. Write the article in such a way that it does not claim any scientific facts. Just state what the unproven theory is. Wikipedia has many articles on religions, no one needs to proof the existence of the Almighty as long as you say it is a belief, not a fact. Why can't this article written the same way too? Kowloonese 23:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Copying
http://www.crystalinks.com/acupressure.html It seems that this page is word-for-word the same as this Wikipedia page. Should someone contact the person who owns that page?
EBM summary in lead
I don't agree with the first clause of this sentence: "With the exception of a disputed study on the P6 point, acupressure has not been proved to the scientific standards of evidence-based medicine (cf. Cochrane Collaboration)." First, it's not a matter of one but a collection of studies in meta-analysis. Second, there is little or no dispute among EBM reviewers Cochrane and Bandolier. One author in SRAM, run by a notoriously biased gang, disagrees. That disagreement doesn't constitute "hot debate" among EBM reviewers. I changed it to "With the exception of stimulation of the P6 point for nausea, acupressure has not been proved to the scientific standards of evidence-based medicine (cf. Cochrane Collaboration)." Jim Butler 09:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Following the lead section garnered consensus in acupuncture, I've now changed the lead here to say: Whether acupressure is efficacious or a placebo is subject to scientific research. There is no scientific consensus over whether or not evidence supports efficacy. Reviews of existing clinical trials have been conducted by the Cochrane Collaboration and Bandolier according to the protocols of evidence-based medicine; for most conditions they have concluded a lack of effectiveness or lack of well-conducted clinical trials. The stuff on P6 and low back pain follows after a paragraph or two. -Jim Butler 21:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry Jim, this is unacceptable. Please see [points 8 and 9 of my Editing principles for Pseudoscience articles in wikipedia]. Also, my understanding, perhaps mistaken, is that acupressure is a western adaptation. Please cite a ref for it being TCM. I've checked my Cochrane and Bandolier stuff. As far as I can see the best result is that one in four adults have reduced early post-operative reduction of nausea, not vomiting. Pls remind me of other relevant studies. Your continued disparagement of sources you don't like is not helpful. If you want to attack the ideas, by all means do so, but don't label people a notoriously biased gang. You should know better. It's also not based on the same principles (if we are taling sticking needles into people), it's based on the same theories. I'll try to limit my edits on the rest until we have consensus if we can achieve it. I've also borrowed some words from acupunture about paradigms. If they are unacceptable we can come up with something else. Mccready 10:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Noticed I'd missed this from earlier, so: On the bias of authors associated with the NCAHF, please see my comments on my talk page[1]. On acupressure and TCM, As I mentioned below, what we refer to as acupressure is one form of tuina. It's taught in TCM programs in China and elsewhere, and many American schools include some training in it. Hope we'll see you back soon Kevin and the above is just for the record. cheers, Jim Butler(talk) 06:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry Jim, this is unacceptable. Please see [points 8 and 9 of my Editing principles for Pseudoscience articles in wikipedia]. Also, my understanding, perhaps mistaken, is that acupressure is a western adaptation. Please cite a ref for it being TCM. I've checked my Cochrane and Bandolier stuff. As far as I can see the best result is that one in four adults have reduced early post-operative reduction of nausea, not vomiting. Pls remind me of other relevant studies. Your continued disparagement of sources you don't like is not helpful. If you want to attack the ideas, by all means do so, but don't label people a notoriously biased gang. You should know better. It's also not based on the same principles (if we are taling sticking needles into people), it's based on the same theories. I'll try to limit my edits on the rest until we have consensus if we can achieve it. I've also borrowed some words from acupunture about paradigms. If they are unacceptable we can come up with something else. Mccready 10:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Following the lead section garnered consensus in acupuncture, I've now changed the lead here to say: Whether acupressure is efficacious or a placebo is subject to scientific research. There is no scientific consensus over whether or not evidence supports efficacy. Reviews of existing clinical trials have been conducted by the Cochrane Collaboration and Bandolier according to the protocols of evidence-based medicine; for most conditions they have concluded a lack of effectiveness or lack of well-conducted clinical trials. The stuff on P6 and low back pain follows after a paragraph or two. -Jim Butler 21:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
revert explanation - monthly statement
hi jim, this is to give you the courtesy of explaining my revert. you said Many (probably most) practitioners don't take it literally). I don't accept this unsourced conclusion. "conceptual framework" gives it a grander cachet. It is a belief system. Your notions of when "science" began appear to be OR. So I've reverted that too. I have aboriginal friends who've lived in a continuous culture for at least 60,000 years. Their scientific knowledge of flora and fauna and their ability to think logically and scientifically about such things is nothing short of stunning. talk to any australian scientist whose ever had anything to do with aborigines in this regard and you're likely to hear the same remark. Pity that the whites have wiped out large bodies of knowledge. Mccready 04:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I edit lots of pseudoscience articles, among others, and wanted as a matter of courtesy to let editors here know where I am coming from. Please check my Editing principles for pseudoscience articles. I'm always keen to talk and try to reach consensus. Mccready 04:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Kevin, thanks for the discussion (am copying all this to acupressure page). One of the things I truly appreciate about your edits here, even if I'm sometimes frustrated by them, is that they frequently make me think and dig more deeply into the issues we're discussing. I agree with your point about "scientific thinking" predating, and don't mind your reverting my edit on that. However, you need to come up with a better reason for using the term "belief system" in place of "principles" (or "ideas", etc.) It adds a gratuitous judgement about the attitudes of people who developed and used the system, some of whom may be as on-the-ball scientifically as your aboriginal friends. You want a source for practitioners not taking TCM as literal truth? Try Kaptchuk (Web, 1983 ed., pp. 34-35):
- These ideas are cultural and speculative constructs that provide orientation and direction for the practical patient situation. There are few secrets of Oriental wisdom buried here. When presented outside the context of Chinese civilization, or of practical diagnosis and therapeutics, these ideas are fragmented and without great significance. The "truth" of these ideas lies in the way the physician can use them to treat real people with real complaints. They are valuable because they comprise a medical paradigm that makes possible the substantive discussion of "what is going on", thereby allowing the physician to diagnose patterns of disharmony. Through diagnosis and treatment the ideas are pragmatically tested and examined for validity, consistency, and truth.
- Kaptchuk is a pretty well-known disseminator of TCM in the West, and his point goes to the heart of the issue of "belief". You may dismiss his take as apologetics, but in fact there some acupucturists (like me) who are comfortable with a fundamentally pragmatic view of TCM, and this is what Kaptchuk is getting at. (Philosophical tangent: have you read Rorty on pragmatism?) People who think along such lines are more interested in how TCM theory can help them achieve clinical goals than in whether or not to believe in it. For for a Taoist priest, TCM is likely a belief system, but not necessarily for others.
- So why "go there"? I hope you don't make "belief system" your next pet lead-section riff. cheers, Jim Butler 08:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- How about speculative constructs? Mccready 12:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Or how about bullshit? ;-) Seriously, what is wrong with the plainly descriptive term ideas? Jim Butler 13:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think we owe it to the reader to let them know it's unscientific, based on a diff paradigm to what they might expect in health care. Ideas doesn't quite convey that. Mccready 14:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Howzabout the riff from TCM article (just added)? Jim Butler 14:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Consensus. Well done to us both. Bullshit might have been another option :-) Mccready 02:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
- Howzabout the riff from TCM article (just added)? Jim Butler 14:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think we owe it to the reader to let them know it's unscientific, based on a diff paradigm to what they might expect in health care. Ideas doesn't quite convey that. Mccready 14:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Or how about bullshit? ;-) Seriously, what is wrong with the plainly descriptive term ideas? Jim Butler 13:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- How about speculative constructs? Mccready 12:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Merge
Yes - Hi Firestar - agree with merge. Acupressure is a subset of tuina; the latter also includes various massage and manupilative techniques (e.g., this link). So I'd think after merging that acupressure should redirect to tuina. Cheers, Jim Butler(talk) 09:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
There was some discussion recently at Category talk:Pseudoscience about when to use this cat. User:FeloniousMonk, an admin, said that NPOV explicitly allows for a topic to be categorized as pseudoscience when a majority of scientists believe that topic is pseudoscientific[2]. FM was rather adamant that this was a dead issue and, because it is part of WP:NPOV, non-negotiable[3]. I expressed some reservations about FM's conclusions, but was happy go along with what he said was existing consensus[4].
If FM is correct, then we can put a topic in Category:Pseudoscience if we can show that a majority of scientists believe it is pseudoscientific. The burden of evidence, per WP:V, is with those who wish the cat to remain. For notorious pseudosciences like intelligent design, that's easy: there are plenty of reliable sources stating scientific consensus. For acupressure, I don't know if such evidence exists. If it doesn't, then I don't see how we can use the cat. There are many scientifically dubious fields on which most scientists haven't voiced their opinions, and if WP:V won't let us use the cat, c'est la vie. But we can of course still say in the article that so-and-so says acupressure is pseudoscientific, for X and Y reasons.
So what is scientific consensus on whether acupressure is a pseudoscience? Damned if I know. Obviously the idea of the meridian system is based on Chinese metaphysics, but the efficacy of treating the actual acupoint is subject to scientific research, and (cf. article) some of it enters into EBM territory. The fact that the term "pseudoscience" is used in various ways[5] doesn't help either. Until someone can provide a good source meeting what FM says is WP's "majority of scientists" standard, I think removing the cat is justified. Thanks, Jim Butler(talk) 16:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
- Just like people are not allowed to edit articles about themselves, I'm not sure how appropriate it is that you are trying to enforce your own conclusions - and then somehow treating that as if the text at the category page is an independant thing you can cite. So the admin made you conceed ground, but you are still doing the thing you wanted to do anyway - so forgive us if we take your 'enforcement' with a grain of salt.
- You are throwing up barriers to using this category by defining the citable sources as small as possible - so that the only way we can define this as pseudoscientific is if a international study has been done on scientists beliefs on this category. That is a ridiculous assessment because it would require ninety-eight percent of the articles within the category to be removed. Intelligent design might be the only one left. Have you treated every other article in this category the same way? I believe the simple wide ranging opinion of those who are vocal about psuedoscientific subjects should serve as a reasonable form of citation. MaxMangel 13:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hi MaxMangel. I've edited my comments down for the sake of brevity. Nutshell, I think that depopulating the category is a good idea, though not as drastically as FM's approach (taken literally) would, and not for the same reasons. (My citing previous discussion - meant as a courtesy to help others follow the thread.)
- My concern is simply this: we should be careful about using categories when there are "grey" areas. With such topics, it's better to make the case for all sides in the article and refrain from using the cat tag. This is what WP:CG says, and seems to me to be entirely consistent with the letter and spirit of NPOV. Do you disagree?
- I agree that the criticisms you mention are fine to cite in articles ("Carroll calls X pseudoscience for Y reasons"). I don't agree that they necessarily represent scientific consensus, or that their views suffice for categorization. You've offered no evidence as to how widely held their views are. Remember WP:V#Burden_of_evidence and WP:NPOV#Undue_weight. The latter says "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts."
- If a viewpoint can't be shown to be a majority (even among scientists), why should we categorize something on that basis? Should WP let all significant minority views dictate categorizations? Can of worms. Thanks, Jim Butler(talk) 23:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
- have to agree with max. the fact that scientists don't have time to dismiss crap doesn't alter the fact that we can judge it to be crap. see discussion on my page. Mccready 15:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
- See WP:CG and WP:V#Burden_of_evidence. Nice essay on your page but I missed the part about how it superseded WP policies. ;-) BTW, welcome back. :-) cheers, Jim Butler(talk) 16:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
So come on then, where are the scientific papers from controlled trials in peer-reviewed journals demonstrating it is science? The burdon of proof is on those who follow this sort of stuff, not the other way round. — Dunc|☺ 21:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)