Ai-Khanoum has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||
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A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on November 16, 2022. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that artefacts from Ai-Khanoum, a Hellenistic city rediscovered by the King of Afghanistan in 1961, include a "remarkable" disc (pictured) displaying "hybrid Greek and Oriental imagery"? | |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
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Untitled
This article has had its dating nomenclature changed on 09:57, 3 February 2007. The original article system employed is BC/AD and it is Wikipedia policy that this not be changed. The change from 09:57, 3 February 2007 is then in violation. Changing it back is the only fair way to apply policy on an issue that divides so many. Unfortunately we have some people who refuse to comply with this policy and will support changes in the dating nomenclature based on personal preference. Avraham is such an editor, though this person has been shown the facts that this article had the BC/AD system employed he still supports the change made on 09:57, 3 February 2007. This is in violation of Wikipedia policy and is also rather disrespectful to those who do not agree with him but abide by policy. Avraham also refers to WP:MOSDATE (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:MOSDATE&redirect=no) which completely supports my statement when you look at the full edit history of this article. Please review the edit history to reveal the truth, you will find that the first application of any dating was the BC/AD on 13:06, 23 July 2004 by PHG. Lets be honest and not biased. Thank you… Monsieur Voltaire (talk) 05:55, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
- It is Wikipedia policy that one not engage in any kind of warring (era or otherwise). See also Disruption of Wikipedia to demonstrate a point, and Gaming the system. Take your custom interpretation of WP:MOSDATE/WP:ERA to WP:AN/I if you think you have a case. -- Fullstop (talk) 16:13, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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Lotus designs predate alexander
Lotus designs predate alexander so it has nothing to do with greek influence as exhibited on indian punch marked coins which predate alexander's invasion.
Link: https://classicalnumismaticgallery.com/searchauctionitem.aspx?auctioncode=11&pricerange=&keyword=&category=1&material=0&lotno= Link: http://www.rajgors.com/auctioncataloguesold.aspx?auid=53
im sure similar is the case with palmette
both lotus and palmette designs were copied from ancient egypt, since there are no lotuses, palm trees in greece, lotus, palms are both native to north india.
Edits
@पाटलिपुत्र:, I am trying to improve and expand this article. While it may be long-standing, the image overkill, lack of citations, and general focus on superficial detail are not aspects which lend themselves to good articles. I intend to get this article up to GA and perhaps even FA; if you wish, I will do my edits in a sandbox, and then copy them here. Best wishes. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:25, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. A lot of the material, especially visual material, in the long-standing article is quite important. Probably better to work on it in your Sandbox indeed. Will be looking forward to the result! Best पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 12:31, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- @पाटलिपुत्र: the result is now completed, and added to the article. There is one paragraph still to go, but I will wait until the GOCE copyeditor is done before adding it. Probably was a good idea to expand in a sandbox first—thanks for the advice.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:01, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29: Good work! but a lot of the photographic and thematic material seems to have been lost. Good articles/ FAs can also be visually rich (see Tang dynasty, Song dynasty, Roman Empire...): in a multi-media age, most people do not read extensive text but instead mainly rely on photographs, captions and reading a few short paragraphs here and there. I'll see if we can find a nice editorial comprise. Best पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 04:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- If it's only one paragraph, you might as well add it now. Dhtwiki (talk) 04:11, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- @पाटलिपुत्र: I will try to incorporate more pictures as you say. @Dhtwiki: I will do so later today: it is a small paragaraph in the Other Structures section, so you can copyedit everything up to there, and the scholarship section too, if you want. Thanks to you both. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:12, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- @पाटलिपुत्र: the result is now completed, and added to the article. There is one paragraph still to go, but I will wait until the GOCE copyeditor is done before adding it. Probably was a good idea to expand in a sandbox first—thanks for the advice.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:01, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
@AirshipJungleman29: I have added a Fair Use image of a 3-D reconstruction of Ai-Khanoum for the infobox. It can be used somewhere else in the article if necessary, but will ultimately be deleted if not used. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 10:36, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- @पाटलिपुत्र:, I think I can find a Fair Use photograph of Ai-Khanoum which was taken by the archaeologists; I think that would be preferable to the reconstruction, which I could move somewhere else in the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:39, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29: Yes, because the site does not exist anymore (destructions), Fair Use of an excavation photograph is probably defensible (there is an amazing photograph of a row a Corinthian pillars in the excavation report, but can't readily find it at this point). Best पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 10:42, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- @पाटलिपुत्र:, exactly my thoughts. I will shortly upload my image.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:55, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
@पाटलिपुत्र:, please stop justifying the inclusion of content violating Wikipedia's policies by stating it is 'long-standing'. Not only is this justification completely irrelevant to whether the content should remain on Wikipedia, it also reflects poorly on yourself for trying to keep it on the article. A simple quick skim of the Boardman article would tell you that Ai-Khaoum was only mentioned as an example of Persian architecture in Hellenistic construction programs. I will remove the paragraph, and I expect any reversion of that change to be preceded by an evidence-based argument on this talk page. Thank you. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:00, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29: Hey, you're not alone editing here. I have been very open to your mass changes so far, so please reciprocate a bit. This is long-standing content, so if you want to remove it and it's challenged, then you have to create consensus on the Talk Page first per WP:BRD. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 19:04, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- @पाटलिपुत्र:, as explained already, it being long-standing does not affect whether it should be in the article. Please provide evidence per WP:RS. And, not incidentally, the bit about the disk is already in the article, and with rather more detail (I believe "mother of pearl" is more detailed than "various colorful materials"). Do you not agree?~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:15, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- If you look at Boardman page 15 (second column), what he is discussing is the role Ai-Khanoum might have had in transmitting Hellenitic styles to India. As for the Shakuntala plate, I am not shocked by mentioning it twice, but it is probably better located in the paragraph about India. Maybe your content can be displaced there... पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 19:26, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- And re the material of the Shakuntala plate... it's probably not just mother-of-pearl. Do you have a source? पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 19:30, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- That is WP:OR. He simply states that the ruins of Ai-Khanoum show similar styles to what was later used in India. He does not state that Ashoka was influenced by a building program which only started after his death! look Mum I can use underline too! Whether the Ashokan pillars used Hellenistic inspiration or not is a scholarly question, but the suggestion that that inspiration came from Ai-Khanoum is laughable. As for the paragraph about India, I am not really sure that it should exist in the first place. As the Boardman synthesis is deprecated, and the Shakuntula plate description is duplicated, all one has is a paragraph about coins. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:39, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Hummm, according to Rapin the background plate is an assembly of shellfish plates, but the decoration consists in colored glass paste with gold separations p.186. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- You are right, it is not just mother-of-pearl, it is predominantly mother-of-pearl with polychrome glass and gold thread, as mentioned in the source provided. If this satisfies you, I will add it to the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:46, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- I think I would prefer "shellfish plaques" per source, as "mother-of-pearl" is different and shiny and used for decoration, whereas what we have here is just a rigid supporting plaque of white color... पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 19:56, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks! I re-read Boardman, but he clearly says of Ai-Khanoum that "All this was being undertaken at least as early as the erection of any Ashokan column", so no, no chronology problem here... He clearly presents Ai-Khanoum as a candidate for transmission of Hellenistic styles to India. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 19:54, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Please can you provide your source for "shellfish plaques"? Your Rapin source explicitly mentions nacre, as does one of mine (the other, also by Rapin says 'encrusted disk of shell'). I do not know what "Afghanistan, tresors retrouves" is supposed to refer to—could you please provide a proper source? Also, do you have a source for the statue File:AyKhanoumWoman.png being from the sanctuary?~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:18, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Rapin: "un assemblage de plaquettes taillées dans du coquillage (...) creusées d'alvéoles remplies de minuscules incrustations en pâte de verre colorées et cerclées de lamelles d'or" p.186, that's really "shellfish plaques" if I'm not mistaken. Do you have a source with "nacre?" I am afraid it isn't "nacre" really, just by looking at the photograph... Sorry, I have to go for now. Cheers पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Please can you provide your source for "shellfish plaques"? Your Rapin source explicitly mentions nacre, as does one of mine (the other, also by Rapin says 'encrusted disk of shell'). I do not know what "Afghanistan, tresors retrouves" is supposed to refer to—could you please provide a proper source? Also, do you have a source for the statue File:AyKhanoumWoman.png being from the sanctuary?~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:18, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- You are right, it is not just mother-of-pearl, it is predominantly mother-of-pearl with polychrome glass and gold thread, as mentioned in the source provided. If this satisfies you, I will add it to the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:46, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- @पाटलिपुत्र:, as explained already, it being long-standing does not affect whether it should be in the article. Please provide evidence per WP:RS. And, not incidentally, the bit about the disk is already in the article, and with rather more detail (I believe "mother of pearl" is more detailed than "various colorful materials"). Do you not agree?~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:15, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
I have provided two sources with 'nacre' above, and I find myself reluctant to overturn them based on 'just looking at the photograph'. Best wishes.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:33, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Can you provide links and exact sources/quotes for "nacre"? I'm interested... पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 20:38, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- "Ai Khanoum sanctuary, mould of female head" p.116 Fig.8 in Francfort, Henri-Paul (1 January 2012). "Ai Khanoum "temple à niches indentées" (temple with indented niches) » and Takht-i Sangin "Oxus temple" in historical cultural perspective: a hypothesis about the cults",". Parthica, 14, p. 109-136. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 20:38, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. Nacre links: p.3 " Le disque indien en nacre incrustée (légende indienne de Sakuntala)"; p.54 "un objet discoïdal de 20 cm de diamètre, couvercle ou revers de miroir, formé d’un assemblage de plaquettes de nacre". — Preceding unsigned comment added by AirshipJungleman29 (talk • contribs) 21:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- OK for "mother-of-pearl" then.. Thanks! पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 22:07, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. Nacre links: p.3 " Le disque indien en nacre incrustée (légende indienne de Sakuntala)"; p.54 "un objet discoïdal de 20 cm de diamètre, couvercle ou revers de miroir, formé d’un assemblage de plaquettes de nacre". — Preceding unsigned comment added by AirshipJungleman29 (talk • contribs) 21:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
Did you know nomination
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 19:55, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- ... that excavation of Ai-Khanoum was stopped due to the Saur Revolution and subsequent Soviet–Afghan War? Source: Martinez-Sève, Laurianne (2020). "Afghan Bactria". In Mairs, Rachel (ed.). The Graeco-Bactrian and Indo-Greek World (1st ed.). Routledge. p. 220. doi:10.4324/9781315108513-13. ISBN 9781315108513. S2CID 243416462.
- ALT1: ... that the site Ai-Khanoum was comprehensively looted during the Soviet–Afghan War? Source: Martinez-Sève, Laurianne (2014). "The Spatial Organization of Ai Khanoum, a Greek City in Afghanistan". American Journal of Archaeology. 118 (2): 267–283 p. 269. doi:10.3764/aja.118.2.0267. JSTOR 10.3764/aja.118.2.0267. S2CID 194685024. , Mairs, Rachel (2014). The Hellenistic Far East: Archaeology, Language, and Identity in Greek Central Asia (1st ed.). p. 26 University of California Press. ISBN 978-0520292468. JSTOR 10.1525/j.ctt7zw3v4.
- ALT2: ... that papyrus fragments recovered from Ai-Khanoum may have originally been a lost work of Aristotle? Source: Hollis, Adrian (2011). "Greek Letters in Hellenistic Bactria". In Obbink, Dirk; Rutherford, Richard (eds.). Culture in Pieces : Essays on Ancient Texts in Honour of Peter Parsons. Oxford: Oxford University Press. pp. 107–108. ISBN 9780191558887. ProQuest 2131025788.
- ALT3: ... that the ancient city of Ai-Khanoum was rediscovered in 1961 by the King of Afghanistan? Source: * Bernard, Paul (2001). "Aï Khanoum en Afghanistan hier (1964-1978) et aujourd'hui (2001) : Un site en péril" [Aï Khanoum in Afghanistan yesterday (1964-1978) and today (2001): a site in danger.]. Comptes Rendus des Séances de l'Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres (in French). 145 (2): 971–972. doi:10.3406/crai.2001.16315.
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Working from Within: The Nature and Development of Quine's Naturalism
- Comment: This article is currently a FAC which might make this difficult.
Comment from AirshipJungleman29: I think that one of the alts, the latter two of which I have just added, would make the best DYK.
Improved to Good Article status by AirshipJungleman29 (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 03:15, 18 October 2022 (UTC).
- Reviewing... LordPeter2go (talk) 10:22, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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Hook eligibility:
- Cited:
- Interesting: - okayish, but better ones possible
Image eligibility:
- Freely licensed: - why none? :)
- Used in article:
- Clear at 100px:
QPQ: Done. |
Overall: Earwig's picks up some similarity, but I checked and it's only (long) titles of sources, so no issue (we can't "rephrase" the title of a source). As for the hooks, I prefer ALT2 or ALT3; ALT0 and ALT1 are only about external circumstances, which are unusual, but don't highlight why this city was (is) so important. I know it's your choice, and there's no guarantee, but I still say this at a number of nominations: Why no picture? :) The GA reviewer specifically noted they were "Impressed by the number of images and maps that are included, which really benefit the article."
I believe there might be a better angle for a hook about the site itself, ideally in combination with one of the several excellent pictures. How about e.g. the attached file, which is described as "a remarkable example of hybrid Greek and Oriental imagery that typified the arts of Hellenized Asia"
in its file description? Heck, the average Wikipedia reader might not even know about Bactria or that Greeks were once in Afghanistan! There might be a hook angle about how the King of Afghanistan discovered an old Greek city there – ideally also with a mention of the art found and attached or other picture. Wanna give it try Onegreatjoke & AirshipJungleman29? –LordPeterII (talk) 15:58, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
- LordPeterII, I think this just avoids any length issues: ALT4: ... that archaeologists at Ai-Khanoum, an ancient Hellenistic city rediscovered by the King of Afghanistan in 1961, found this disc (pictured) which displays Ancient Greek deities in an Oriental style? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:15, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29 and Onegreatjoke: Yeah ALT4 goes in the direction I meant. How about adapting it slightly to get
- ALT5: ... that artefacts from Ai-Khanoum, a Hellenistic city rediscovered by the King of Afghanistan in 1961, include a "remarkable" disc (pictured) displaying "hybrid Greek and Oriental imagery"?
- It's a little shorter but might still highlight some interesting things. –LordPeterII (talk) 18:30, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- ... and I just realized I didn't follow the citation style (at least not in wiki code) used in the article otherwise, when I added a reference to the Met Museum. @AirshipJungleman29 I hope you can adjust that if it bothers you, I don't know how since I only ever use the "easy" way of citing. –LordPeterII (talk) 18:33, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- Don't worry about the citation style—I'll have a look at that. I've made some slight alterations to the hook, but I think its satisfactory on my end. Thanks very much for your contributions, LordPeterII. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:05, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29: Thanks, yeah those fixes were needed :) Excellent, then I shall only
- request another reviewer for ALT5. –LordPeterII (talk) 19:09, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- General eligibility:
- Don't worry about the citation style—I'll have a look at that. I've made some slight alterations to the hook, but I think its satisfactory on my end. Thanks very much for your contributions, LordPeterII. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:05, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- ... and I just realized I didn't follow the citation style (at least not in wiki code) used in the article otherwise, when I added a reference to the Met Museum. @AirshipJungleman29 I hope you can adjust that if it bothers you, I don't know how since I only ever use the "easy" way of citing. –LordPeterII (talk) 18:33, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
- @AirshipJungleman29 and Onegreatjoke: Yeah ALT4 goes in the direction I meant. How about adapting it slightly to get
- New enough:
- Long enough:
- Other problems:
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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Hook eligibility:
- Cited:
- Interesting:
- Other problems:
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px. |
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QPQ: Done. |
Changes to article
83d40m, thank you for your changes to the article. You picked up on several typos that I missed when hastily reverting your initial revision. Nevertheless, I wish to point out a few things.
- This article is written in British English. Per MOS:ENGVAR, specifically MOS:RETAIN, it is not helpful to change the variety of English. Among other changes of yours which I have reverted: "toward" (AmE) vs "towards" (BrE), "artifacts" vs "artefacts", "disk" vs "disc", and a much more prescriptive outlook towards "that" and "which", which is less important in BrE.
- In addition you seem to prefer that additional words not come in the middle of verb structures: "Burials were generally not" --> "Burials generally were not", "which were probably used" --> "which probably were used". I do not feel comfortable using these constructions in BrE-please raise them at the FAC nomination if you feel like they must be changed.
- Finally, you have introduced an excessive amount of intricate detail concerning the Cybele medallion. While I appreciate your work, please note the following points.
- Also mentioned at WP:ERRORS when the article was nominated at DYK: the Nike in the Met Museum source is a mistranslation. The excavation notes and all subsequent French studies very clearly refer to a Nike, as in a general spirit of victory, not the mythological goddess. At present, the closest a Wikipedia article comes to that is the winged victory section of Victoria (mythology). If you feel that removing the link entirely would be beneficial, I will do so.
- In addition, the level of detail you have provided is not needed. The excavation notes are provided as a source, and readers are more than welcome to use them. If I were to produce a similar level of detail on every artefact and structure mentioned in the article, we would have a 25,000 word article that failed nearly every guideline. Perhaps I will create a Ai-Khanoum Cybele plaque article in the future, per WP:SS. Who knows?
~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:04, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- User:AirshipJungleman29, Thank you for replying. Nike is a Greek deity featured in the object and the article goes into great detail about the "remarkable" cultural hybrid of "Greek and Oriental imagery". There is no hybridization with Roman culture that arose a couple of centuries after the object was fashioned, so I fail to understand why one would choose to reinsert information that is inaccurate into an article after it had been corrected. Just failing to note one of the two central figures in the image distorts its meaning and prevents conveying accurate information to our readers. Providing a link to a deity from another culture that arose centuries later rather than the one who ought to be identified, seems inexcusable to me. Deleting a reference link rather than correction of the error, certainly does not appeal to me. The additional details I provided clarify the Oriental features, the other element of the hybrid. We certainly should provide known and accurate information regarding the significance of the subject material of the object. It is featured in the article for that reason. I disagree with your view that our readers should be left to search for such information if they even can figure out what it might be. Identifying the elements that are the foundation of why the object is "remarkable" ought to be important — especially — if this article becomes one featured as among our supposedly best efforts. The other edits you choose to reverse are editorial preferences for clear communication with the richness of the language to readers of all levels while not sacrificing accuracy with the lowest common denominator, not worth the time to discuss each at the moment, but I object to your reversals of the edits about this significant object and believe that "ownership" issues are related to your justification. Reconsideration seems in order, I think you might concur upon that. _ _ _ _ 83d40m (talk) 02:17, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- 83d40m, you appear to have not read my comments. The object does not feature the Greek goddess Nike, it features a Nike, the general spirit of victory. Quote from the original excavation report:
Le décor du médaillon représente la déesse Cybèle traversant un pays montagneux dans son attelage de lions conduit par une Niké.
lit. "The medallion's decoration represents the goddess Cybele crossing a mountainous country in her team of lions led by a Niké." You may wish to contrast the difference between 'the goddess Cybele' and 'a Niké'. I have deleted the link to the Roman goddess, but I will continue to revert the addition of a link to the Greek goddess. - For clarification, this was your addition to the medallion section:
This disk depicts two Greek goddesses, Cybele and Nike, in a chariot drawn by lions. They are attended to by a religious official holding a parasol over them as they approach an alter elevated by three steps with another religious official on its top level. Multiple astronomical symbols of religious importance are featured in the sky as well. These natural astronomical features held differing importance to the two cultures, but would have resonated nonetheless, as significant to both.
I do not see how this clarifies "the Oriental features" of the medallion, especially the last two sentences, which are mostly just waffle, and would never pass at FAC. - I have no clue what "editorial preferences for clear communication with the richness of the language to readers of all levels while not sacrificing accuracy with the lowest common denominator" is supposed to mean, but I am glad that it is not worth discussion. Regarding your repeated charges of "ownership", you may wish to see WP:FAOWN, which this will hopefully soon satisfy. As this article is currently undergoing a Featured Article nomination, you are more than welcome to write your comments there. Thank you for your time.~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:32, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- 83d40m, you appear to have not read my comments. The object does not feature the Greek goddess Nike, it features a Nike, the general spirit of victory. Quote from the original excavation report: