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:Still stalking me, eh? And another incivil reaction. You will note I was not the individual who included the quote by bell hooks; it was part of the article when I came to it. But I ''do'' agree with its inclusion and hooks' explanation. It is not "apologist." It, as well as subsequent passages, makes a very important point that black supremacy is not white supremacy in blackface -- which is what very well could be the natural assumption of the reader. It is important that the differences be clearly explained. I won't have any other comment on your response on this matter, or on any other matter, until you learn to engage in civil discourse. [[User:Deeceevoice|deeceevoice]] 03:49, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
::Gawd, at least I wasn't the one having ''all'' those arguments with other contributors ''and'' the one being requested to act with civility from sysops. Teach me civil discourse will you, eh? Try looking into a mirror and see if you can see a savage yourself. [[User:Wareware|<nowiki></nowiki>]] [[User:Wareware|Ware]][[User talk:Wareware|ware]] 05:48, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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Revision as of 05:48, 13 March 2005
This is the original version of this article, which was replaced by a differing opinion:
- Some believe that there is no such thing as black supremacy; if there were, "Black Supremacy" groups, the government would have intervened. If anything, it's more like Black mobilization after centuries of brutality by whites. Black people want to live free of the continued subjective internalized hatred that they are met with on a daily basis. This hatred towards Blacks is were the Black Panthers and the Black Muslim party sprung from; not any notion of black supremacy. The white groups adhere to the supremacy as a way on instilling their racialized mytholgies of supremacy due to skin color.
I have re-inserted these comments into the article, editing them to present them as a point of view under the NPOV policy. -- Anon.
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I disagree. We must not present these statements as facts. Some irrational people truly believe that the world is flat, but this has no place as an equal point of view in an article on the Earth. Rather, that point of view should only be a minor point in an entry; this point should then link to a section on paranoia, pseudo-science and conspiracy theories. Simiarly, some American blacks (a very small percent of the community, to be sure.) deny that racism exists in the black community. They sometimes claim that some supposed pro-white government wouldn't allow these black supremacists to exist. This claim is just plain false, as well as a bit paranoid, and only tells us that some people really are too deep into conspiracy theory. Other black racists in America claim that racism can only exist among those with political power and money, and since blacks (on the average) earn less than whites, black people by definition cannot be racist. Obviously, this claim is incoherent as well as. Plenty of black people have money and power; and plenty of black people are racist. I have personally witnessed black Nation of Islam rallies which were scary as hell, due to the hatespeech they spewed towards all white people, as well as Jews and mainstream blacks. RK
I concur with you that this article should mention the existence of these beliefs, but the article should not imply that this is a mainstream view among black people. They should be presented as a minority view, usually spread by the Nation of Islam and the New Black Panthers; the article should then link to the proper sections on racism and conspiracy theory. RK
Please feel free to do so. I also invite the original poster to comment more on this. -- Anon.
I removed this paragraph until someone can re-write it:
- Some people believe that there is no such thing as "black supremacy"; they believe that if there were, "Black Supremacy" groups, the government would have intervened. If anything, they consider it to be more like Black mobilization after centuries of brutality by whites. They say "Black people want to live free of the continued subjective internalized hatred that they are met with on a daily basis". According to them, this hatred towards Blacks is what the Black Panthers and the Black Muslim party sprung from; not any notion of black supremacy. In their opinion, the white groups adhere to the supremacy as a way on instilling their racialized mytholgies of supremacy due to skin color.
I removed it simply because it does not make sense. Are the "some people" in question claiming that Blacks are not superior to Whites; that no race is superior to any other race; or that there is no organized movement among Blacks that espouses "Black supremacy?" Who exactly are these people -- do they themselves representa a movement? Are they historians? Politicians?
Also, I don't get the "debate" over the origin of the BP. Yes, it is a question whether the BP officially espoused Black supremacy -- I do not know, this is a straightforward empirical question. But this paragraph is trying to account for the origins of the BP -- certainly it is possible that BP arouse BOTH as a response to White racism AND as a celbration of Black supremacy. I am not saying this is the case, I am just saying that they two "causes" are by no means mutually exclusive.
Also, does nay one know more histoyr? I cannot believe this article begins with the 1960s -- shouldn't Marcus Garvey at least be mentioned? Slrubenstein
- Garvey's UNIA was not a black supremacist movement and did not teach/preach black superiority over whites. Ditto for the Black Panther Party for Self-defense and the Nation of Islam. deeceevoice 21:18, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The BHI information is obviously cut and pasted since the contributor didn't bother to even remove the "31" footnote number. But I don't find it with Google. -- Zoe
Melanin: superconductor vs. semiconductor
There's been an interesting exchange in Superconductor with regard to an egregious cognitive glitch I made in editing this piece. (I meant to explain that, contrary to Melanin Theory, melanin is a semiconductor, rather than a superconductor. Instead, I continued to use "superconductor" (which makes no sense). I've since recognized my error and made the appropriate changes in this article and related others. I also did some checking on the Internet with regard to Melanin Theory. There are references to it on various Afrocentric websites that properly refer to melanin as a semiconductor, so I have to assume that the "superconductor" business is simply a corruption/misapprehension of MT that has taken place over time. I've also made appropriate edits in this article to reflect this fact. deeceevoice 12:07, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Melanin and Parkinson's disease
Can anyone provide information on whether or not there is any correlation between levels of melanin in the skin and in the substantia nigra? Appended to a paragraph on Parkinson's and melanin is the statement, " Possibly related, there is also a higher incidence of Parkinson's disease in whites than in blacks." I wrote this because a "race"-based variation in the incidence of the disease pointed to a possible correlation. But I could find nothing of this on the Internet. Someone in another discussion raised this point (rather intemperately), and some clarification would be useful. If there definitively is none, then the piece should definitively state that. deeceevoice 09:47, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Go get this book In the blood: god, genes, and destiny by Steve Jones. On pg. 193 he mentions there are "suggestive but inconclusive" associations between melanin and resistance to Parkinson's Disease. As far as I know that's the only reference I found. Maybe somebody will find more source from this reference. I wouldn't add it in outright though as it can very well be heresay Wareware 11:06, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hm-m. Interesting. Thanks. Guess the poster in the melanin forum was just blowing steam and didn't know what the hell he was talking about. I'm not famililar w/Jones, but I Googled him. I don't think Jones' information would be "hearsay"; he's a well respected scientist and author. I think I'll add it to the article, and perhaps someone else more familiar with the subject can expand on it, if they so desire. deeceevoice 11:47, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- What I meant was that we don't know in what context Steve Jones was talking about this correlation between melanin and Parkinson's. He could very well be repudiating this notion. Again, the only source I knew that Steve Jones wrote something about this was from a two-sentence mention from Afrocentrism by Stephen Howe. So we basically don't really know if Steve Jones is supporting, disapproving, writing from original research, or simply mentioning this correlation. I'm not challenging his credentials or position, it's just that we simply don't know the context. I guess that means somebody needs to pick up the book and actually turns to that page. Wareware 00:49, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Recent edits reverted by Deeceevoice
I changed and then you reverted the section:
"Melanin is, in fact, an organic semiconductor. It is also a neuropeptide, a polymeric substance that conducts electrical impulses in the neural networks of some living creatures, including humans. It also mediates the conduction and absorption of light and heat. As such, it is the subject of intense interest in biotech research and development, most notably in plastic electronics and nanotechnology. Researchers postulate that melanin, in both its organic and synthesized forms, may be among a number biopolymers that one day could routinely supplant conventional, inorganic materials like gallium arsenide and silicon in some high-tech devices such as microchips."
This is just incorrect misinformation I'm afraid.... Firstly melanin and other organic semiconductors will never be used as a substitute for GaAs or Si in microchips. ever. The electron mobility in organic molecules is just far too low. It is not a substitute for these materials in any way. Secondly where is melanin used in nanotechnology? Really I don't think that it is at all, or ever has been. Also you are misapplying the word "biotechnology" here as this field has nothing to do with organic semiconductors. The sentence " It also mediates the conduction and absorption of light and heat." really REALLY needs to go, it is completely irrelevant to any applications of melanin either commercially or biologically and is worded very improperly for a scientific statement. Furthermore it is not entirely clear that melanin "conducts electrical impulses in the neural networks of some living creatures..."
Now on to your other reversion: "There are some blacks who today believe that, because blacks are the most ancient human beings on Earth"
What I object to here DC, is not that "black people" (more appropriately, Africains) were the first humans to arrive in the evolutionary tree, it is the statement that "blacks are the most ancient human beings on Earth" which needs a bit of a tweaking. To say that black people today are more or less "ancient" than other racial groups implies a "static state" of evolution which simply does not exist. We have all been evolving since the first humans appeared and current "blacks" are likely just as far (evolutionarily speaking) from the first "ancient" humans as say...south east asians are.
I really must insist upon citations if we are to keep the reversion you applied to the melanin/semiconductor section though. (ps. I hope,HOPE that you aren't getting your info from this [1] crazy site. That site is so full of scientific inaccuracy and outright falsehood it makes me feel dirty just linking to it! :o) It's made by some guy who calls himself a doctor and sells all sorts of crazy hair growth potions [2].--Deglr6328 00:02, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I haven't even bothered to follow the link you provided, because I don't think it has anything to do with where I retrieved my information. I've been visiting a number of sites on the web to obtain information. The 2004 International Symposium on Environmental Nanotechnology featured at least one presentation on the use of (plant-derived) melanin in nanotechnology. Google it; you'll find articles and references to melanin films (nanocoatings and nanocells). I've seen references to nanotech and melanin dealing with innovations in the textile and clothing industry and all sorts of potential applications -- including as a polymeric coating in microchips. Melanin (plant- and animal based, synthetic and natural) is an "amorphous semiconductor threshold switch," that electroluminesces when it switches. This has been known for 30 years. (If you dispute/question this basic information, I'm pretty sure I can dig up a link to the article, if you'd like.) This research website at the University of Queensland, Australia, may be of interest. They are focusing on melanin research, investigating in a wide variety of possible applications, including nanotech: http://softsolids.physics.uq.edu.au/our_research.html
- I also contributed info in this vein to the article on melanin. There may be something there that I haven't mentioned here.
- With regard to the business about black people being the oldest humans on the planet, it is true in the sense that the very first human beings were black Africans. Geneticist Spencer Wells, who specializes in genetics and population studies (The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey), describes San (bushmen) has having "oldest DNA on the planet"). Now, I know, of course, that humankind has changed somewhat over time, but that's hardly the point. I am describing a belief grounded in scientific fact. The same is true with Melanin Theory. It's a postulation grounded in scientific fact. It may be hogwash; it may be "pseudoscience," but it is what it is. It is not presented here as fact; merely presented and explained.
- I've got some terrible deadlines this weekend and early into the week. But I'll check back for questions, comments, when I can. Hope you find my response at least somewhat helpful. And sorry if I, perhaps, haven't addressed all your issues; but I'm really pressed for time at the moment. Peace. deeceevoice 03:43, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- You said- "I am describing a belief grounded in scientific fact. The same is true with Melanin Theory. It's a postulation grounded in scientific fact. It may be hogwash; it may be "pseudoscience," but it is what it is. It is not presented here as fact; merely presented and explained."
- Uhhh, say again? It was indeed presented here as fact. And it was quite wrong. One single article does not constitute "intense interest in biotech research and development, most notably in plastic electronics and nanotechnology." It is really currently quite a backwater in conductive organic compound research, there are materials with far better properties for research purposes.
- also, you say "Now, I know, of course, that humankind has changed somewhat over time, but that's hardly the point. I am describing a belief grounded in scientific fact." huh? That IS the point! Something is either scientifically factual or it is not. Saying that "black people are more ancient" than other groups is inaccurate. Perhaps certain aspects of current african inhabitants have changed less (retention of dark skin for instance) since ancient times, than other racial groups (say...eskimos) but that does not make current africans "more ancient". Perhaps it might be permissable to say (I'm not certain) that modern african people are more closely genetically related to these ancient groups but by definition, we are all modern humans today.
- I trust that your knowlege in the areas of africain-american history are more accurate than mine though I am not so convinced regarding your knowledge about scientific issues. As you yourself recently admonished another user for being too obstinate saying "you can't know everything" perhaps we can have an agreement here that other users might know a bit more on the subject?--Deglr6328 04:35, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
A separate argument
Deleted and/or Edited: It its simplest form, black supremacy is the belief in the inherent superiority of the "black race." Historically, however, it has manifested itself as a tool in framing an intellectual and conceptual dialectic (in the Hegelian sense) that has been utilized as a kind of liberation theology for the societally marginalized and oppressed. In neither its intellectual nor its political context, however, is black supremacy -- as many nonblacks are inclined to believe -- mere sophistry; it is a strongly held notion. Even so, it is little more than an intellectual construct. Author and social commentator bell hooks (1995, p.154) writes...White supremacy, in contrast, has been historically— and remains today— a political ideology, a worldview, the power of which is projected outward as an instrument of dominance and oppression to preserve, protect and regain white hegemony, white power and white privilege. The power and pervasiveness of white supremacy are such that even people of color, whose intrinsic worth it devalues, may subscribe to it. This internalization of a belief of a (usually) dominant group in the inherent inferiority of another group by members of that subject group generally is referred to as self-hatred. Based on an understanding of power and ethnicity such as that expressed by hooks, there is no such thing as black supremacy, per se, as a corollary of white supremacy; it simply does not exist. But black supremacy as a core belief in the inherent superiority of indigenous peoples of Sub-Saharan and West Africa and their progeny has been a fairly marginal, but growing, school of thought among blacks for 75 years or more in the modern era.
What's this apologist drivel? Simplifying world politics, economy, and history into black-white context is simplistic to the point that it is confusing. What is the point of this passage? All we need to what black supremacy is, what are its tenets, who believes in it, what has changed, not some dense drivel that goes into semantics and doesn't really have a clear-cut definition or reasoning to it Wareware 01:29, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Still stalking me, eh? And another incivil reaction. You will note I was not the individual who included the quote by bell hooks; it was part of the article when I came to it. But I do agree with its inclusion and hooks' explanation. It is not "apologist." It, as well as subsequent passages, makes a very important point that black supremacy is not white supremacy in blackface -- which is what very well could be the natural assumption of the reader. It is important that the differences be clearly explained. I won't have any other comment on your response on this matter, or on any other matter, until you learn to engage in civil discourse. deeceevoice 03:49, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)