Master of Ninja, please refrain from your factually incorrect subjective prejudice, when speaking of Celtic and Rangers. For instance, Celtic also sing bigoted songs, as "IRA" chants and "F the Q and Davie Cooper" chants, as well as others have been well documented even this season. Also, MON is from Northern Ireland whether you wish him to be or not. This is a VERY CLEAR abuse of Wikipedia. Please stop this immediately. (Your spelling and grammar is also terrible.)
- Reply: I completely disagree with your analysis - I merely reverted a change which in itself was biased, with a revision comment I hoped would allow the author of the changes to try again, without taking out the major portion of the history that he did. I do not know, and do not particularly care, what the actual situation 'bigot-wise' between Rangers and Celtic is at the moment: I believe that is for other contributors to decided as long as they do not disrupt the article. The situation about MON being Northern Irish was part of the previous revision, and it was a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater unfortuantely as I do not have the time or expertise to vet the correct factual changes, along with the subjective changes. Maybe once this protection has been lifted you can change it? - Master Of Ninja 20:39, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Rangers first Roman Catholic was not Mo Johnston in 1989. There were others, but I do not have the proof (pre WW1 there would be plenty) but recently there is one I can prove: John Spencer.
Reply: Is this page about Rangers or Celtic?
Further reply: If this page mentions Rangers it should be accurate. I did not add the Rangers aspect, it should not be there, but if it is included it should not be false. Agreed?
Is there a specific reason why the club's name is pronounce 'Seltic' and not 'Keltic'?????? 16:13, 24 Mar 2004 81.86.4.217 "Seltic" was the pronunciation used at the time the club was founded. "Keltic" has since supplanted the old pronunciation when used to describe Celtic culture, peoples etc. 19:17, 30 Jun 2004 81.152.194.26 (uniform) Clubs having uniforms identical Celtic's green-white hoops
- Sachsen Leipzig (Deutschland)
- Shamrock Rovers (Ireland)
- Belfast Celtic (Irish League, now defunct)
- Buckie Thistle (Scotland, Highland League)
- Donegal Celtic (Irish League)
- Sporting Lisbon (Portugal)
Do you know any other?137.205.8.2 21:34, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Yeovil Towm (England League 1)
- T.N.S. (Wales)
- Real Betis Balompié (Spain) Although not identical as those are vertical stripes, instead of the horizontal hoops.
- Shamrock Rovers(Ireland)
Added by Paddy 14:05, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Protection and reversion
I have protected this page due to vandalism from several anon IPs and User:Egils. I may possibly have have caught some valid edits amongst the vandalism upon reverting this page. I have no idea whther the allegations regarding a member of the Club's staff are valid. If you believe these edits are justified, please discuss them here. Mintguy (T) 11:46, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This page and Rangers F.C. have been protected because of vandalism from a large number of anon IPs (many of whom have been given 24 hour bans). The protection will remain in place until it is judged safe to remove it. -- Arwel 17:44, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- The protected version seems to have caught an act of vandalism. Rather than reverting back to Demiurge (who it seems has been trying to stem the anon IP changes), it is reverted to 82.40.9.6. 82.40.9.6 changes "Celtic was founded in 1888 by Brother Walfrid as a way to raise money for terribly deprived" to "Celtic was founded in 1888 by Brother Walfrid as a way to ensure that there was no dilution of the Catholic religion amongst Irish immigrants". The original would appear to be the correct version, see e.g. [1]. --stochata 18:21, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- We'll stick with the version as-is for the moment - as the header says, the protected version isn't taking sides. I was hoping a freeze of both pages for a few hours would be enough, until someone came up and edited this page nearly half an hour after Rangers was protected, so maybe I'll leave them protected until tomorrow to be on the safe side. - Arwel 18:35, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Fair enough.--stochata 18:53, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- We'll stick with the version as-is for the moment - as the header says, the protected version isn't taking sides. I was hoping a freeze of both pages for a few hours would be enough, until someone came up and edited this page nearly half an hour after Rangers was protected, so maybe I'll leave them protected until tomorrow to be on the safe side. - Arwel 18:35, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Suggestion for once protection has been lifted - give contributors a "Analysis of rivalry between Rangers and Celtic" page so that they can try and write a reasoned analysis of the situation. I'm a bit annoyed at being flamed for what I thought was a reasonable (and explained revert) - Master Of Ninja 20:39, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- It's a nice suggestion but sadly unlikely to work. These guys would much rather throw insults around than points of argument as the (mostly insulting) pro and con edits demonstrate. -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:44, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
- It might still be worth starting History of Sectarianism in Scottish Football, with a link from this page in place of all references to chants and who had which Catholic / Protestant players. I would suggest following the example of the Hibs page, which prominently mentions the Catholic history, without then reverting to further discussion later on. Oddly enough, I notice that the Sectarianism page doesn't even mention Scotland. --stochata 21:14, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I notice this little edit war was spotted by the Sunday Herald -- [2] -- Arwel 15:16, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This protected version contains a number of inaccuracies
- ? This is a very strange comment to come from anon user 128.240.229.65, who edited the article 2 hours earlier and therefore knows perfectly well that the article is no longer protected (and indeed hasn't been since last Saturday afternoon). -- Arwel 20:50, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It has been proven that no song that Celtic supporters sing whilst watching their team at Celtic Park contain any sectarian lyrics whatsoever
I take it you've never attended a Celtic match. If you have, then you'd know that Sectarian rhetoric can be heard eminating from the stands at Celtic games. These include "North men, south men, comrades all, soon there'll be no protestants at all" and "We're off to Dublin in the Sun, F*ck the Huns!" Hun being a derogitory, disparaging and Sectarian term for a Protestant. Plus, let's not forget that Celtic supporters can be often heard chanting "Dirty Orange B*stards" at, not just Rangers fans, but fans of many other Scots teams. Bazton
I've removed the last of "193.133.113.141, 16:18, 5 August 2005 (season updates)" changes, as they were mostly vandalism. However, I've toned down the sentence about Celtic fans calling for Strachan's head - some of the more vocal fans weren't happy about the season's start. CS Miller 13:56, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
Could be worth directing readers to a separate 'Sectarianism in Scottish football' (or whatever) page and protecting THAT page if it becomes impossible. Hippo43 14:47, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Abuse
As the author of the previous anon comment I had assumed that the page was protected as any editorial changes I had made were removed on subsequent viewings. A number of points are incorrect and offensive, In particular the failure of the Irish Scots to integrate. Would someone please point out to me how this non-integration is apparent in day-day Scottish life? 195.92.168.177 20:24, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)Lord of the Dance
- I'm sorry -- I think I may have been overly hasty in reverting other changes and catching yours at the same time (if you were 128.240.229.65). I have just reinstated your changes. --stochata 20:40, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Rangers revisionism keeps returning
I notice that "Rangers would not sign Catholics" is continually changed to "Catholics would not sign for Rangers". While undoubtedly Catholics may have been averse to signing for Rangers if they could, the fact remains that Rangers barred them from doing so -- for example, see this report [3]. --stochata 11:46, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Either way it's a fact that's irrelevant, this page being a NPOV piece about Celtic.
How does stochata's point violate NPOV? It seems to be a fact-based point. City 20:00, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Edit war March 2005
Hi - I think we need everyone involved to actually have a discussion of what should be on the article page. The amount of reversions is quite unbelievable. I personally feel that the edit on 27 March, at 13:18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Celtic_F.C.&oldid=11577398) is quite acceptable. Any ideas on this? - Master Of Ninja 18:32, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Master Of Ninja. I am actually in favour of the style of changes made by 217.42.x.x (I am assuming this is a session based IP address, and the person is the same). 217.42.x.x is gradually toning down and removing some of the more strongly vocalised discussion of sectarianism. However, I do think he/she goes too far in attempts to remove all references. At times it is important to note the differences with Rangers (particularly, the long standing acceptance of protestant players). This time I have actually tried a compromise rather than a blind revert. Of course, it would be preferrable if 217.42.x.x were prepared to discuss rather than slowly change the article, and to avoid misleading edit summaries. --stochata 13:43, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
UEFA Cup run 2003
It is often stated that an estimated 80,000 Celtic fans were in Seville. Is there any documentary evidence of these numbers? Jimbo79 23:41, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
- The Guardian - "More than 50,000"
- UEFA.com -"With up to 70,000 Celtic and 30,000 Porto fans expected in town, the headline in Tuesday's El Correo de Andalucía ran: 'The invasion has begun'."
- CNN-SI - "In the bleachers at Seville's 52,000-seat Olympic Stadium, the green-and-white colors of Celtic far outnumbered the blue of Porto. Tens of thousands of fans, mostly Scots, who traveled to southern Spain without a ticket watched on giant video screens in the city center." -- Arwel 00:57, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
- It is pretty well documented that they took 80,000 to Seville.
Mine is only an eye witness account but I would say that 80,000 is perfectly plausible. The whole city was jammed with tens of thousands of people wearing hooped shirts. They were noisy but well behaved.
PalX 11:50, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Celtic & the Media
RE: Celtic Quick News. This section of the article looks suspiciously like an advert. Is it absolutely necessary? Maybe add the link to external links at the bottom of the article?--Nicholas 15:49, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
- Since nobody has objected I'm gonna delete that link.--Nicholas 11:01, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Lack of Images
Surely someone could bring a digital camera to the stadium??? SeanMack 16:49, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
There are some pictures on the Celtic Park article but in saying that I do agree with you.
PalX 21:44, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Celtic are not sectarian?
It has been proven that no song that Celtic supporters sing whilst watching their team at Celtic Park contain any sectarian lyrics whatsoever
I take it you've never attended a Celtic match. If you have, then you'd know that Sectarian rhetoric can be heard eminating from the stands at Celtic games. These include "North men, south men, comrades all, soon there'll be no protestants at all" and "We're off to Dublin in the Sun, F*ck the Huns!" Hun being a derogitory, disparaging and Sectarian term for a Protestant. Plus, let's not forget that Celtic supporters can be often heard chanting "Dirty Orange B*stards" at, not just Rangers fans, but fans of many other Scottish teams as well. Bazton
Those aren't the words to those songs - "North men, south men, comrades all, Dublin, Belfast, Corke or Donnegal" and "We're all off to Dublin in the Green, in the green, where the helmets glisten in the sun". You clearly don't know anything of what you're spewing. And Rangers fans are Dirty Orange Bastards - an instrumental version of "Hello Hello" plays before every homegame at Ibrox. Isn't that just a song about how brilliant it is slaughtering catholics?
Sadly there are a few (thankfully it is only a few) that engage in this sort of chanting but to be fair it has largely been eradicated in recent times. I attended last week's OF game and didn't hear any sectarian songs or chants with religious content. 'Go home ya Huns' was belted out at one stage but that was the extent of the directly aimed derogatory stuff and it's debatable I suppose if the word 'Hun' is in itself sectarian. Offensive yes but sectarian I am not sure. Sectarian or republican songs are in fact banned today by Celtic and this seems to be having the desired effect. Early days but the signs are promising. In fairness to Rangers, they have also improved somewhat in moving away from this stuff too. The sooner this ridiculous side to the OF disappears the better. It has no place in today's world. Palx 08:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Many Rangers supporters believe that songs swayed towards the IRA and Sinn Fein are sectarian. Although it can be said that both of these organisations are sectarian, most Celtic supporters firmly state that although the IRA have commited atrocities, it is the IRA's cause that they stand for, and not their actions. It has been proven that no song that Celtic supporters sing whilst watching their team at Celtic Park contain any sectarian lyrics whatsoever, although the political visage they give could be confused as such.
PaddyC, where has this been proven? This argument carries on below and mentions '...soon there'll be no protestants at all'. Is that not a sectarian lyric? Hippo43 16:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Hippo43, I am terribly sorry But the "Added by Paddy 14:05, 8 December 2005 (UTC)" is the final part of what I added, I added the four football teams above this signature, which play in Green and White. The paragraph under my signature is not mine. I apologise If I caused any misunderstandings.
Even though, may I produce my opinion on that paragraph, I totally agree, "...soon there'll be no protestants at all" I never heard this at Celtic Park, any evidence to prove me wrong?? In fact Celtic have always welcomed protestants into our Club, some of our main heroes are Protestants, Examples such as Mr. Jock Stein and other Lisbon Lions.
It has been mentioned on this page, but by someone not providing any evidence, so it could be a good start and an Idea, if evidence was provided, Sincerely Paddy 18:57, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Paddy, apologies - my mistake reading that anonymous comment. On the subject of 'soon there'll be no protestants at all', I have heard it at the Park, and as it crops up on this page I'm obviously not the only one. A straw poll of people I know reveals the same thing. Obviously it's near impossible to 'prove' this either way, short of providing a video recording of it being sung! I am not in any way suggesting that Celtic is a sectarian club, and as such I don't even consider it necessary to cite well-known 'non-catholics'. My view is that of course there are prominent Celtic players who aren't/weren't catholics - or even players who aren't/weren't hindu - why on earth wouldn't there be? As far as I know, noone has seriously accused Celtic of having any kind of sectarian employment policy.
However, I find it absurd that a contributor has claimed that 'it has been proven...' Where has this been proven? By who? Even leaving aside 'political' songs which, if not specifically sectarian, will obviously be offensive to some, clearly there are some fans at Celtic Park, perhaps only a small number, who sing lyrics which protestants would find offensive. Only the most one-eyed Celtic fan could deny this, or the singing of 'dirty orange bastards' or various references to huns... I confess, I'm not above a bit of that myself, and I'm definitely not a catholic.
Hippo43 22:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
No problem Hippo, I do recognise that there is a minor section of the Celtic fans, that do not grace the name and reasons of being of Celtic FC.
But songs derogatory and insulting toward opponents are just part and parcel of football, millions of clubs round earth have insulting terms and songs toward their opponents, which in many countries are just taken as general banter. But there are political issues surrounding the oldfirm which make every minor incident a big sectarian one. And even the big sectarian issues are always bombarded by the media, when in fact we do get trouble at football all round Europe and most of the time this is not even documented. And here I am not condoning this behaviour or issues.
I have for year now opposed political songs being sung at football matches (Even though I don't oppose the songs), there is a place and a time for everything, and Celtic FC should do without these songs, I do understand these songs might offend people, yet I do not believe they could be branded as sectarian.
Hopefully our society will learn how to draw a line on what is acceptable as ordinary banter and part of football, and what is harsh and not acceptable, and sure we will root sectarianism and racism out of both football and our society as a whole.
Thank you for the way you tackled this mistakes, It is a pleasure having a discussion with you and it is only natural that we will disagree on certain things, but that is what makes discussion and this world worth wile, wouldn't be boring if we where all the same? Hopefully on the near future our society will learn how to deal and live with this differences without there being an issue. Paddy :-) 21:06, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Great Celts
By no means of imagination could Eyal Berkovich be considered a great celt. He was rubbish at Celtic. Also, why is John Hughes listed here? Okay the boy had fire in his belly, but he was pretty mince!--Nicholas 11:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
- Oh, i was thinking about the wrong John Hughes (silly me).--Nicholas 08:34, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
Lisbon Lions
" 30 miles from Celtic Park" Celtic F.C. " 25 miles from Glasgow" The Lisbon Lions. Any sources ? as they don't match the following[4]
Seville
The flowery section about fans travelling to Seville (and so on) was removed because it meandered and discussed unsubstantiated anecdotes that don't really belong in a general article about Celtic Football Club - otherwise, we'd be here for the rest of our lives recounting all sorts of memorable Celtic matches, which probably belong on some other website. This item is supposed to inform people about the club, its history, the players, achievements, records and so on - not individual accounts or personal experiences about the club. If you want to start a "Celtic in Seville" page, go ahead - but I don't think overly long items about what was ultimately a failed enterprise on Celtic's part belongs here any more than stories about fans travelling to the San Siro for the 1970 European Cup Final do.
User:Copydeskcat 23:04, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Regards.
PalX 23:18, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I find your tone and attitude offensive. I am one of the regular editors of this page, and if you had bothered to bother to check, you would have seen that I am responsible for adding most of the content over the past six months or so.
I have never claimed that I am the sole owner or editor of this page, although I have done my best to maintain a presence here to ensure that it is not repeatedly vandalised or populated with incorrect or biased information. The discussion page is significantly absent of any challenges to the edits I have made, and the other regular contributors seem happy with the content that has been added over the past few months, often adding to it, correcting it or modifying it. If you properly understood the topic (ie. Celtic Football Club and British football) you would understand that the "effort" on the part of other so-called editors of this page is often surreptitiously designed to undermine Celtic Football Club by adding incorrect, offensive or otherwise dubious material which has no real place in any documentation of the club history - which I have continually attempted to keep to a minimum. Most of the edits are made by unregistered users, often containing contrary information or content which does not belong in this entry - for example, the entry on Celtic's Uefa Cup Final match in Seville, which added little to the overall information about the club, other than anecdotal and unsubstantiated stories - which I discussed with you above.
You have made repeated made edits yourself which followed this pattern, pointing out that the Irish tricolor flag flies at Celtic Park and not the Union Flag (you incorrectly refered to it as the "Union Jack") - which has little or no relevance on this page and only serves to deliberately infer that Celtic actively promote themselves as an Irish club, when this is clearly not the case. The Union Flag does fly above Celtic Park.
You also made an edit from the following text:
"The club play their home matches at the 60,830 all-seater stadium"
to
"The club plays their home matches at the 60,830 all-seater stadium"
It is accepted journalistic writing style to refer to British football clubs as collective entities in the context of the sport, not as singular entities - unless you are referring to them in a business sense, as an active company in business matters. For example, you would say "Celtic have announced their latest signing", not "Celtic has announced their latest signing". However, you would say "Celtic PLC has released information about a new share option", not "Celtic PLC have released information about a new share option".
You also made an edit about the club name, which has not changed in over 100 years - only the business operating name has changed for the purposes of the London Stock Exchange - the registered details with the Scottish Football Association and Scottish Premier League still list Celtic as "The Celtic Football and Athletic Club" - which also remains the name on the club crest and badge.
You also made an edit from "stadia" to "stadiums" - which is essentially the same thing, although "stadia" is usually the more appropriate term to use when referring to the plural or collective term for a stadium.
You also added the word "ostensible" to this entry:
"Celtic Football Club was formally constituted at a meeting in St. Mary's church hall in East Rose Street (now Forbes Street), Calton, Glasgow, by Marist Brother Walfrid on November 6, 1887, with the ostensible purpose stated in the official club records as "being to alleviate poverty in Glasgow's East End parishes"."
whhich suggests, to me, that you do not believe that Celtic were founded for the reasons as stated in the official club records, since the very meaning of the word "ostensible" is "to represent or appear as such". That particular entry was tagged "inproving [sic] grammar and removing ridiculous mention of religion".
Additionally, the edit in question did not actually include the removal of any content relating to religion.
You also made a contradictory edit, from this:
"Additionally, Celtic remain the only Scottish club ever to have reached the final, and are the only club ever to win the trophy with a team comprised entirely of home-grown talent; all of the players in the side being Scottish in origin, and all born within a 30-mile radius of Celtic Park in Glasgow."
to this:
"Additionally, Celtic remain the only "Scottish" club ever to have reached the final, and are the only club ever to win the trophy with a team comprised entirely of home-grown talent; all of the players in the side being Scottish by birth, and all born within a 30-mile radius of Celtic Park in Glasgow."
The quote marks around "Scottish" suggest, to me, a dubious attitude to the use of the word Scottish, and the change to the trailing statement: "all of the players in the side being Scottish by birth, and all born within a 30-mile radius of Celtic Park in Glasgow." is tautological.
If the players are Scottish by birth, then they were natually born in Scotland. The original statement was fine as it was, so the change was wholly frivolous.
You also made several changes to football club names throughout the article - adding "F.C" to every football club reference, which is poor journalistic style. In the context of British football, all clubs are generally refered to by their known name - ie. Arsenal, not Arsenal F.C; Manchester United, not Manchester United F.C; Motherwell, not Motherwell F.C.; Rangers, not Rangers F.C. The links contained under each club name sufficed to lead users to the appropriate entry for each club.
If you are a Celtic fan, then everyone who contributes to this page welcomes your input and effort. Personally, I am a life-long Celtic fan and a season-book holder - and it is my intention to make sure this page contains accurate and appropriate information about the subject - Celtic Football Club.
User:Copydeskcat 01:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I offer my apology if the tone was offensive. Perhaps it was. I withdraw the comment and tag.
Regarding your above accusations of contradictory and questionable edits, I must inform you that you have erred. I didn't make those edits. Please look again. you need to scroll back through the older edit link to see where things orginate.
I did do the Celtic plc edit. You are correct in that and I have changed it back as I agree with your explanation.
After that, your post falls apart.
I did not make those changes.
You looked up the history incorrectly.
Oops.
Here's an example to assist you.
You say I am responsible for the Scottish Saltire entry.
Some guy called 70.19.47.9 did that one.
He's your stadium/stadiums editor too!
Bingo !
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Celtic_F.C.&diff=prev&oldid=24668604
The rest of your post I regret to say is equally wrong.
Regards,
PalX 09:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
PalX, if I made an error on the edit history, I apologise. However, if you look at this history comparison:
[[5]]
it indicates that a change was made, by you, from this:
"Celtic's home kit is green and white hooped jerseys, white shorts and white socks (although it is also not uncommon for them to wear green and white hooped socks). The club play their home matches at the 60,830 all-seater stadium Celtic Park in the east end of Glasgow, which is widely regarded as one of the most famous stadia in Europe."
to this:
"Celtic's home kit is green and white hooped jerseys, white shorts and white socks (although it is also not uncommon for them to wear green and white hooped socks). The Irish tricolor flies at Parkhead stadium, not the Scottish saltire or the Union Jack. The club plays their home matches at the 60,830 all-seater stadium Celtic Park in the east end of Glasgow, which is widely regarded as one of the most famous stadiums in Europe."
Maybe I'm reading it wrong?
That's how I established the edits...
User:Copydeskcat 14:04, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
I think the wealth of detail on this page is impressive but the tone of the page is un-objective and openly partisan (and the omission of any mention of sectarian troubles is very un-professional). It read like a fan-site. This isn't proper for an encyclopedia article.
I don't intend to get into a debate, just thought the editors of this page should know how it reads to someone who's not a Celtics fan.
Answer: I've tried my best for this page to reflect Celtic's history, based on fact. If the page contains fan-based references, it's because that's what football is like. Teams are supported by like-minded people - not dispassionate bystanders. Additionally, sectarianism has no place in the history of the club, which this article is about. Celtic have never identified themselves as a sectarian organisation (unlike Rangers, who excluded people from certain religions), although many fans have.
User:Copydeskcat 23:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Ever heard that Jock Stein quote?
If there were two great football players, and one was catholic and the other was protestant - i'd sign the protestant, because Rangers wouldn't sign the catholic
Answer: The quote is largely mythical - Stein actually said he would choose a player based on his ability to play football, not on his religion - but if another team chose to exclude players from a certain religious group, it would give Celtic more choice in the market.
User:Copydeskcat 23:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Club Name
I removed 'and Athletic Club' from the full name as the club site lists 'The Celtic Football Club'. (http://www.celticfc.net/aboutus/default.aspx) As far as I can tell, the Company is called Celtic PLC (see eg http://www.hemscott.com/equities/company/summary/c02718m.stm) and was previously The Celtic Football & Athletic Company Ltd. I can't find any reference to the club name ever being The Celtic Football and Athletic Club, but will happily be corrected if someone gives a decent source. Hippo43 16:42, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Minor edits
I have made several edits today - all, I feel, with good reason. Copydeskcat, if you disagree with anything you find 'frivolous' please feel free to take your own advice and discuss removing others' work before blindly undoing several edits at once. Hippo43 16:59, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Frivolous edits
Hippo43 - you have joined this page following many months of debate and editing of the content, and you have proceeded to make sweeping changes to content which has long-since been agreed. Granted, some of the edits have been monir grammatical or style points, but in other areas, you have made trivial edits which contribute almost nothing to the overall content of the item. I'm going to ask the mods to protect this page once I've reverted the edits back. Copydeskcat 17:11, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
CopydeskCat, please feel free to suggest alternatives/justification for calling my edits frivolous. Are they frivolous and 'minor grammatical or style points' or are they 'sweeping changes'??
I have made a series of minor edits, any of which can be discussed/edited on an individual basis. The only sweeping chnage I have seen in this article is where you reverted numerous edits by me and deemed them frivolous without any explanation.
You haven't explained why you think any of my edits are frivolous, or given any sources for your reverting my factual corrections. IMO every change I've made has been well justified and I have tried to respect the previous discussion on this article. That I have only recently started to edit this is of no relevance to the validity of my edits - this is surely intended to be an encyclopedia which can be edited by anyone, and not set in stone simply because someone wants to protect their earlier entries.Hippo43 17:22, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Copydeskcat, I've reverted to my earlier changes. Please discuss anything you disagree with in specific terms - maybe I have got something wrong. However, you don't own this page, nor can you claim to represent the consensus of what this 'encyclopedia article' should contain. I hope that when you discuss these changes in detail with the mods they will perhaps see a fresh pair of eyes making some factual corrections and some style/grammar/spelling improvements as a good thing, rather than reacting like someone whose toes have been stepped on. Hippo43 17:37, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
"discussing" changes
Fair enough - point 1: pronounciation of "Celtic" link restored - "seltic" would be correct, since "k" is generally only used in pronunciation to differentiate between "c" and "k" sounds.Copydeskcat 18:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I used seltik as, bearing in mind this article may well be read by people who don't know the club like we do, we need to differentiate between the 2 sounds of the letter C in Celtic - the first one is an S, the second one a K [don't know how to produce phonemic characters with my PC, but the phonemic spelling is Seltik] - therefore Seltik avoids any ambiguity. Hippo43 18:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
That's why I linked it to the article on the pronunciation of the word. Copydeskcat 18:42, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
The article you linked to doesn't affect which spelling we should use in this article for clarity. The second C is phonemically a /k/, and /seltik/ is the correct spelling for pronunciation - /seltic/ is an incorrect explanation of the word's pronunciation.Hippo43 19:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Celtic Park
Celtic park is a football stadium, it is widely regarded as one of thew most famous in Europe - please refute thse facts before re-editing the page. Copydeskcat 18:36, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
'The club play their home matches at the 60,830 all-seater football stadium Celtic Park in the east end of Glasgow, widely regarded as one of the most famous stadia in Europe.'
2 points here - stadium is repeated unnecessarily - if we say 'one of the most famous stadia in Europe', then using the first instance of 'football stadium' is redundant. I will remove the first instance and insert 'football' in the second, hence -
'The club play their home matches at the 60,830 all-seater Celtic Park in the east end of Glasgow, one of the most famous football stadia in Europe.'
Second point is that something is not 'regarded' as famous - it is either famous or it isn't. It may be regarded as being one of the best, or perhaps one of the most beautiful, but it either is or isn't famous. I know I'm a pedant, but again, I'm trying to keep this article as professional as possible, trying to leave out partisan exaggeration, as tempting as that is.Hippo43 18:57, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
The definition of the word "famous" is "well or widely known". Therefore, Celtic Park can quite easily be "regarded as one of the most famous stadia in Europe."
Not everyone believes it is "famous", so therefore its fame can't possibly be ubiqitous. It's not a case of "it either is or isn't famous".
Some people regard is as famous, some don't. As such, I've returned part of the phrase to the article. Copydeskcat 19:19, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
You are being ridiculous - among football stadia, Celtic Park is well-known, AND widely-known. As someone who knows football,either of us is qualified to state that Celtic Park IS one of the most famous... Similarly, I could say that Johan Cruyff is one of the most famous players in the world. I do not need to qualify the statement. Celtic Park, as home to a winner of the European cup and, for a large part of the 20th century, one of the biggest grounds in the world, IS one of the most famous football stadia in Europe. For example, Celtic Park is featured in Simon Inglis' book 'The Football Grounds of Europe' (Collins Willow, 1990) as the author critiques a few of the most well-known grounds from most countries in Europe. The likes of Brockville, Turf Moor etc - in my opinion, not among the most famous in Europe - are left out.
I changed the use of English in this sentence for the better, yet you seem terrified of even one of your precious words being challenged. Why? If you want to air your own views without them being edited, you are free to publish whatever you like on your own website. Hippo43 00:56, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Club nickname
I'm a Celtic fan - and every Celtic fan I know pronounces the club nickname as "B-hoys", not "Boys". Please refute before reverting. Copydeskcat 18:38, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I too am a Celtic fan and have never heard anyone pronounce the H, other than when taking the p#ss. However, I might be deaf, so I will ask around and will wait for others' input. Quick internet search reveals both pronunciations listed on different sites. I could likewise say 'Please refute before reverting' but will try to avoid pettiness. Perhaps you could wait until we have discussed a point before changing it? Might save us both some typing.Hippo43 18:44, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I have taken out the contested pronunciation until we get some more conclusive input. Hippo43 02:27, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Historic victories
Celtic's victory agains St. Mirren in 1985 to snatch the league from Hearts was a historic win, not a "memorable" one. Historic means it takes its place in Scottish football history - memorable would mean it's not easily forgotten. Copydeskcat 18:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Call it historic if you want - I don't mind. I didn't call the win 'memorable', I just removed 'historic'. Like many of my edits, it was part of an attempt to remove some of the hyperbole from the history - I tried to tone down legends, heroes, historic, legendary etc as the style was too partisan, too tabloid - this should be a professional, measured article, not a boastful fans' site. By your definition of 'historic', every match could be so-called. I also factually changed the number of goals required. Source - http://www.sporting-heroes.net/football-heroes/stats_football/scottish_league_tables/scottish_league_tables_80s.htm Hippo43 19:02, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
By my definition, not every match could be called "historic". Historic matches are ones that change the face of the game (at least, in Scotland) or makr themselves apart from every other match. Examples would include the Inverness Caledonian Thistle defeat. Celtic's 7-1 win over Rangers. The 5-1 and 6-2 games against Rangers. Winning the league against St. Johnstone to stop Rangers reaching 10-in-a-row. The 7-0 match against Aberdeen in the SPL.
However, a memorable match would be one where something interesting (but not deemed for the history books) happened - like a player debut, or a player reaching a goal-milestone or scoring a hat-trick. Copydeskcat 19:15, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Whose definition? What history books are you referring to? You have created your own distinction between the words 'memorable' and 'historic', with only yourself qualified to distinguish between them. Again, I didn't insert the word 'memorable', I just removed 'historic'. As above, call it what you like. More broadly, I have tried to improve the way the article reads by reeling in some of the unncessary hyperbole you seem so attached to. This is, again, an encyclopedia article presumably most useful to people who don't know the Club's history well - one of the principles of this site is NPOV, and your comments above seem to suggest you think this article is for, and by, Celtic fans only. From the comments in the discussion section and in the edit summaries, I am not the first contributor to consider this article partisan.
Hippo43 01:06, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
It appears from your entry above, dated 23:04, 5 October 2005 (UTC), in the Seville section, that you consider the UEFA Cup Final in 2003 to be a 'memorable' match. By your contrived definition, that means you believe it was a less significant match in the history of the Club than that league game at Love Street. And less significant than a 7-0 win over Aberdeen in the SPL, right? Hippo43 01:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Away Goals or away goals
Why would "away goals" be capitalised? I can't find any reference on the Uefa site to suggest capitalisation. Emphasis would be more appropriate. I've linked to the WikiPedia page for away goals - which doesn't captialise the reference either. Copydeskcat 19:28, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Capitalised or not - I couldn't give a flying trapeze. I corrected the previous entry which had 'on aggregate', and capitalised it cos I figured it was the title of the rule, hence would be capitalised. Good call on linking to the relevant article. FIFA and UEFA both use lower-case, hyphenated - I will correct your mistake.
Their/Celtic's is neither here nor there grammatically - both are repeated repeatedly.Hippo43 19:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Wim Jansen / Jock Brown
It's a fact that Jansen was the first foreign head coach appointed to a professional team in Scotland, therefore it forms part of Celtic's history and their part in the history of the game in Scotland. Copydeskcat 19:28, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Are we splitting hairs over what a head coach/manager is? Both Ivan Golac and Liam Brady preceded Jansen, and did essentially the same job. If you are saying that head coach and manager are not the same, then your 'first' is trivial. In order to back that claim up, can you cite a source which accurately records all previous managers/head coaches of Scottish professional teams, their official job titles and their nationalities?
Perhaps of note is the fact that Jansen was Celtic's first 'boss' from outside the UK or Ireland. Hippo43 00:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Jock Brown's appointment was, I believe, somewhat controversial for 2 reasons - that he did not have any experience in the type of position he took on, and that he was supposedly not, in the phrase of the day, 'Celtic-minded'. He left after only around a year in the job with neither issue having really disappeared.
Hippo43 01:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Caley Thistle game and roof guttering
The Caley Thistle match was due to take place on a Saturday, but was postponed around 1pm on the day of the game because of guttering breaking loose at the stadium due to a bad rain storm (Chick young "exclusively" broke the story on BBC Radio Scotland that afternoon). Copydeskcat 19:39, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't disagree, I just don't see how this is relevant to the game itself or its consequences - seems trivial to explain why the game had been postponed. Let me know if I am missing some significance. Hippo43 02:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Jim Farry
Let's discuss the facts here: Farry was found guilty of misconduct for witholding Jorge Cadete's registration papers. He could give no valid reason why he had done so, therefore his actions could only have been deliberate (or absent-minded). Additionally, almost every newspaper and observer of the game - neutrals included - recognise that Celtic's below-par performances were the result of a lack of a quality striker, which changed when Cadete was eligible to play.
Why was this section of the article edited?
Copydeskcat 19:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
This section was edited because it claimed that there were numerous 'well-documented' cases of 'persecution' and that the Jim Farry story was part of that series. That Farry was guilty of delaying Cadete's registration is simply not evidence of an anti-Celtic campaign even in this case alone. Absent-mindedness aside, 'deliberate' could mean many things - for example, he may merely have disliked Jorge Cadete, or Portuguese people, or been a mean-spirited weasel in general. Who knows?
As a Celtic fan, I believe Celtic would have performed better with Cadete in the side, as he became an excellent player for us. However we cannot claim to know for sure. The facts are that Celtic improved after Cadete appeared in the team (only a few minutes after), but there is no way of proving that we would have been better in those earlier games. By all means say that we were deprived of an excellent striker for a period, but we can't claim more than that without appearing ridiculous.
Changed the heading to 'An Anti-Celtic Agenda?' as this is clearly a matter of conjecture, and although your preferred edit claimed several 'well-documented' instances, you mentioned only one and didn't offer a single document. I am trying to maintain the NPOV of this article. Hippo43 01:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
More minor edits
Removed redundant 'allegedly' from Fergus McCann/8 minutes sentence and cleaned up.
Also changed SPL reference in Burns era to Scottish Premier Division - SPL didn't exist until 1998 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Premier_League GrammarPolice 01:25, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Patsy Gallacher
Could someone here please take a look at the article Patsy Gallacher. The article was created a week or so ago by someone on a vandalism spree, and seemed intended to make fun of this Celtic player. I would have had the article deleted, but it seemed to be about a real and notable person, which makes the article viable. I removed the smears, but what facts remain are doubtful, given their source. It would be helpful if someone who knows something about this player could take a look at this article and at least make sure that what is there is accurate. Even better would be to improve and expand the article. If the article is not viable, submit it for deletion or let me know and I'll do it.--Srleffler 02:37, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
- I fixed the article with verifiable info. Camillustalk 02:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Peer review
I have nominated this article for peer review so express your views using the comments at the top of the page. --Chazz88 15:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Defeat by Clyde
84.217.3.121, Celtic were defeated by Clyde. Restoring facts that were deleted isn't vandalism. Your deletion of them is. I'll keep restoring this as long as there is a 'Recent Achievements'/'Recent Seasons' section. Guinnog 22:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Deletion of non-achievments from an achievments section is not vandalism. You addition of them is. The section was only renamed to accomodate this one result. This is not a results page. There are other places for that. Treats of repetead reversion are NOT the way to reolve disputes.
- I added the sentence about the defeat to the page just after the final whistle the other day...and yes, I'm a Celtic fan. Somebody removed it saying "it's hardly a Recent Achievement". I added it in the current season section. You can't wish away bad results by not including them. Should we remove the mention of the Caley Thistle defeat? How about some Rangers fans take the hint and remove the 1957 League Cup Final result from their page? It has to go in, otherwise those hostile to our team will keep adding it anyway. How does it go? "We don't care if we win lose or draw"... Camillus (talk) 00:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- Of course, but just a simple statement of facts will do. --Speedway.Moz 05:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- That is what we have currently. Guinnog 07:09, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- The result was added to 'Recent Achievement' section NOT 'Recent Seson' section. That was why it was removed. GraemeL repeatedly reverted inspite of this error. When the penny dropped the section was suddenly renamed to 'Recent Seasons'. The 1957 result HAS been repeatedly vandalised on the Rangers page even though it is a highly approriate addition to the Scot Symon years - as is the result of the Eintracht match. This is supposed to be an encyvlopedia not a results service or a fanzine. Camillus your alleged allegiances are of no relevance to the discussion.User:84.217.3.121
- If you look at the history of the article [6], I added it under "The Strachan Era". I stated the fact that I am a Celtic fan to reinforce the fact that I was wanting to add the result before hordes of non-Celtic fans added it (probably using less neutral language). I take offence at your "alleged allegiances" - there's a good chance I was going to Celtic games before you were out of nappies. I also note that though you entered User:84.217.3.121, the history shows that the above comment was added by someone with the IP address 212.247.182.60. Of course, you may have just been using another computer. Wikipedia has a policy of "no personal attacks" WP:NPA. I take your slur against my allegiance to Celtic as a personal attack. Camillus (talk) 17:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- it makes no odds who you support. As if that gives some credence to the inclusion which is what you are trying to say. I could easily say I'm a Rangers fan and I think it should be removed. The section was only renamed to accomodate this result - a ridiculous state of affairs. As for the slur there is a good chance I was going to Rangers games before you were born.
- Guys, let's all calm down. The section was badly titled in the first place - a defeat to Artmedia is not an "achievement". "Recent Seasons" is a better section heading IHMO. That Celtic lost to Clyde is a major event in this season, but definitely not an "achievement". Whether it remains relevant for this season, only time will tell. Let's leave it in place for now, because it is current, and if it becomes irrelevant it will be removed over time. --Cactus.man ✍ 19:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- This is supposed to be an encyclopedia not a results service. Not a fanzine. The section was not badly titled. It was the later content that was misplaced.
- That sounds reasonable to me, which is why I left it in place originally Guinnog 20:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- The title was changed soley to accomodate that result. Not a reasonable practice.
- If you look at the history of the article [6], I added it under "The Strachan Era". I stated the fact that I am a Celtic fan to reinforce the fact that I was wanting to add the result before hordes of non-Celtic fans added it (probably using less neutral language). I take offence at your "alleged allegiances" - there's a good chance I was going to Celtic games before you were out of nappies. I also note that though you entered User:84.217.3.121, the history shows that the above comment was added by someone with the IP address 212.247.182.60. Of course, you may have just been using another computer. Wikipedia has a policy of "no personal attacks" WP:NPA. I take your slur against my allegiance to Celtic as a personal attack. Camillus (talk) 17:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- See next section Guinnog 01:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Seasons vs Achievements
I really think seasons is better. Please let's discuss here if there is a good reason why 'achievements' should be here. Isn't there a standard form for SPL teams?!
Guinnog 00:25, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed - should be "Seasons", obviously. Camillus (talk) 00:37, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
- How is this obvious? It only became an issue when some people were very keen to get the clyde result in. Recent 'seasons' is a very dull title. Might as well refer to a results service. There is no template. The SPL pages are as chalk and cheese. Please discuss why this section absolutely had to be changed to 'seasons'. Remember this is supposed to be an encyclopedia.
- This is obvious because 'Achievements' (NB correct spelling!) is POV. 'Seasons' is NPOV. HTH Guinnog 01:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)