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{{connected contributor|User1=Christopher Langan|U1-EH=no|U1-declared=yes|User2=DrL|U2-EH=yes|U2-declared=yes|U2-otherlinks=[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=942450579 declared here]|User3=Dylancatlow1|U3-EH=yes|U3-declared=yes|U3-otherlinks=[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dylancatlow1&diff=prev&oldid=1220573372 declared here]}} |
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| | '''Notice: [[User:Asmodeus|Asmodeus]] and [[User:DrL|DrL]] are banned from editing this article.''' |
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| style="text-align: left; border-top: 1px solid #666666; " | The users specified have been indefinitely banned by the [[WP:Arbitration Committee|Arbitration committee]] from editing this article. The users are not prevented from discussing or proposing changes on this talk page. |
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<sub>Posted by {{{4|[[User_talk:Srikeit|Srikeit]] 17:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)}}} for the Arbitration committee. See [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/ScienceApologist]].</sub> |
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{{Archive box|index=/Archive index|search=yes| |
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* [[Talk:Christopher Michael Langan/Archive 1|Archive 1]] <small>(2005–2006)</small> |
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* [[Talk:Christopher Michael Langan/Archive 2|Archive 2]] <small>(January–March 2007)</small> |
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* [[Talk:Christopher Michael Langan/Archive 3|Archive 3]] <small>(March–April 2007)</small> |
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* [[Talk:Christopher Michael Langan/Archive 4|Archive 4]] <small>(May 2007–Oct 2009)</small> |
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* [[Talk:Christopher Langan/Archive 25|Archive 5]] <small>(Oct 2009- )</small> |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 31 August 2022 == |
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__TOC__ |
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{{Clear}} |
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== Follow-up == |
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I hate to have to interject again so quickly, but new issues have just arisen with respect to the first paragraph of this article. Certain details are disparaging and improperly sourced. I'll comment on each sentence separately. |
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1. "Christopher Michael Langan (born March 25, 1952) is an American horse rancher known for his claim of a very high IQ, frequently reported to be at 'around 195'." |
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I typically don't make claims regarding my own IQ, and I certainly hadn't done so prior to being profiled by Esquire Magazine and other mass media outlets. Instead, when pressed on the issue, I have usually cited estimates published by the mass media without discussing their accuracy. The phrase "his claim" seems designed to make it appear that my notoriety is strictly a function of self-promotion. But in fact, I have never requested media coverage, and anyone who says otherwise would be lying. I was informed by media sources that I had been contacted because, in their preliminary investigations, I had been recommended for coverage by various members of the high IQ community. |
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2. "Many of his claims met not without controversy, since Langan only scored a 42 out of 48 on his first try on Ronald K. Hoeflin's Mega Test (equivalent to an IQ of 164, sd=15) [2] published in Omni Magazine." |
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This is evidently a pretext to insert alleged information regarding my first application to a certain high-IQ club which had initially promised admission for a certain test score, but then reneged without warning (this kind of turnaround is sometimes called a "bait and switch"). It is immediately followed by a reduced estimate of my intelligence, which is apparently supposed to have something to do with the "controversiality" of unspecified "claims" I'm supposed to have made. In fact, the media were fully informed, by me and others, about the circumstances under which I took the particular test in question, and exactly why I was forced to repeat it. |
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3. "A second attempt gave a score of 47 out of 48 under the pseudonym 'Eric Hart', after Marilyn vos Savant published some of the answers in Omni IQ Quiz Contest." |
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I don't know Marilyn vos Savant, and I have never before heard that she released answers to the Mega Test. If she did, then it was certainly unknown to me (and many others) at the time I took the test, which was all the way back in the mid-1980's. In any case, I see no source, let alone a reliable source, for this statement. As for "pseudonyms", several people who took the Mega test did so under pseudonyms, and I made it clear exactly who I was not long after joining. |
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4. "As a result of his score, he has been described as "the smartest man in America" as well as "the smartest man in the world" by some journalists." |
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This is an unsubstantiated causal inference. Yes, it is perfectly true that I've "been described as 'the smartest man in America' as well as 'the smartest man in the world' by some journalists." But it has always been my impression that I was chosen to be profiled for a number of reasons, including but not limited to the abovementioned personal recommendations by other members of the high IQ community. It is unclear why the Mega Test should be identified as the sole reason. |
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In short, while I and my work - especially the CTMU - are certainly notable by Wikipedia standards, and while it is indeed true that "Christopher Michael Langan, an American horse rancher who is known for having a very high IQ (frequently reported to be around 200), has been described as 'the smartest man in America' as well as 'the smartest man in the world' by some journalists," speculative and/or improperly sourced additions and disparaging insinuations obviously have nothing to do with it. |
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I respectfully request that the recurrent violations of WP:BLP and other Wikipedia policies to which this article has been subject for the last 15 years or so be expeditiously corrected whenever they (re)appear. |
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My sincere thanks to the Wikipedia community for your attention. [[User:Chris Langan|Chris Langan]] ([[User talk:Chris Langan|talk]]) 20:15, 5 October 2019 (UTC) |
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: {{replyto|Chris Langan}} I changed the lede a bit to make it sound less like an [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Expressions_of_doubt|expression of doubt]], which hopefully addresses (1) and (4) I'm not seeing the text from (2) and (3) currently in the article. It might have been removed between the 5th and now... My take here is that this article would really benefit from a more typical Wikipedia-style of referencing (e.g. using citation templates and named references). This is especially true since it seems many of the sources are early 2000sish and mostly exist in archives now. With the way its referenced now [[WP:V]] is more difficult than it needs to be which makes arbitrating disputes more difficult. I ''started'' doing this in the lede. Many of the citations mentioned there are no longer appear in the article and I had to do some hunting to find them. Step one would be to do that for the rest of the article, step two would be to complete the citation templates appropriately (populating all the necessary attributes, naming, reusing the names instead of citing independently). - [[User:Scarpy|Scarpy]] ([[User talk:Scarpy|talk]]) 22:29, 8 October 2019 (UTC) |
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There is no such thing as a verifiable IQ beyond the 160-164 range. All these HIQ tests are unrecognized and invalid. |
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Regarding the psychologist that tested langan, |
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1- we haven’t seen the test itself |
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2- the psychologist isn't known for psychometrics , and it there is no source that he even specializes in administering IQ tests. |
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3- the psychologist has had several infractions on his psychology license. |
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4- the test doesn’t break the ceiling of 160 anyways. |
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5- there is a conflict of interest because ABC hired him to precisely validate their click bait story. [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 23:25, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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These are all good reasons to doubt Langan's IQ. I suggest that Langan's page be edited to make it absolutely clear to readers that the "sources" who have estimated his IQ are dubious at best. [[User:EarlWhitehall|EarlWhitehall]] ([[User talk:EarlWhitehall|talk]]) 23:14, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 23 February 2020 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Christopher Langan|answered=yes}} |
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It is imprecise to put eugenics in this context as from what I could gather Mr. Langan is in favor of anti-dysgenics. It's an important difference. |
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Also, he is not blaming Third world immigrants per se, but rather those who unreasonably and forcibly are trying to uproot the Western culture by irrational immigration policies. So, the changes I have put in more precisely represent the author's views. [[User:Mich.Szczesny|Mich.Szczesny]] ([[User talk:Mich.Szczesny|talk]]) 22:25, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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These are your opinion, under the pseudonym eric heart he did clearly espouse positive eugenics. Regardless, it is a distinction without a difference. |
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And yes he is blaming third world immigrants, and you are vandalising the page and starting another edit war. Now be careful , get back to reason , because the facts are all on our side. [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 22:47, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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The terms "anti-dysgenics" and "eugenics" are synonyms. Langan has publicly argued in favor of eradicating genetic traits that he feels negatively impact on a person's quality of life. In his essay, "On the Differences between People, Birds, and Bees", he includes low IQs and physical unattractiveness in this category. He is an open supporter of eugenics, and using the obscure term "anti-dysgenics" could be seen as a way of sugar coating this. We have a duty to present the facts to our readers in the most unambiguous way possible. |
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The word "eugenics" ought to remain in the article. [[User:EarlWhitehall|EarlWhitehall]] ([[User talk:EarlWhitehall|talk]]) 21:58, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Yes and it should be noted that Langan also expressed far right white nationalist views and has also endorsed Donald Trump. |
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If the anyone wishes to view the evidence I can post it here, but a google search suffices. [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 20:26, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Well, to me the term anti-dysgenics isn't obscure and has got a different shade of meaning, which is important if one wants to be precise. So, it is an important distinction. I didn't think that trying to be more precise and accurate would be classified as "vandalising the page" and "starting another edit war". That is exactly what I am trying to do: be careful with my words and the meaning they convey. Mich.Szczesny 20:39, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:Eggishorn|Eggishorn]] [[User talk:Eggishorn|(talk)]] [[Special:Contributions/Eggishorn|(contrib)]] 20:51, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Langan himself referred to “benign eugenics” in the Morris video, which nonetheless still is eugenics. I’m sure Hilter thought his eugenics was also “benign” . Food for thought... |
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That said, the reason you're hiding behind semantic trickery and word games is because you think its “bad marketing” to call a spade a spade. |
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Regarding “precision” , what is precise is that there is jo such thing as a recognized , scientifically valid psychometric test that discriminates above the 160s range. So there is no such a thing as an IQ of 195 or 200, unrecognized tests notwithstanding. |
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[[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 23:57, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 23 February 2020 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Christopher Langan|answered=yes}} |
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The article states that Mr. Langan was criticised for excessive use of ill-defined neologisms. I think it's important to present the views of peole who appreciated his mastery of the written word and would like to add the following paragraph: "On the other hand, Pierre R. Latour has appreciated Mr. Langan's work and precise use of words by writing: 'He has devised a deep philosophical foundation for the principles of proper scholarship and enquiry (...). His logic language is king'." [[User:Mich.Szczesny|Mich.Szczesny]] ([[User talk:Mich.Szczesny|talk]]) 22:37, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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“Mastery of the written word” ? |
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Your obviously not an objective observer. His use if word salad is the consensus amongst almost everyone save a small minority of sycophants of his. [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 22:50, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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I agree with Nigerian Chess Player. This part of the article was not specifically about Langan's writing skills, so including the opposing (minority) viewpoint is unnecessary here. [[User:EarlWhitehall|EarlWhitehall]] ([[User talk:EarlWhitehall|talk]]) 23:28, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Well, yes, I used the expression "mastery of the written word" because that is what the expression "His logic language is king" is synonymous to. I thought it's important to present the views of people who think exactly that. "Consensus amongst almost everyone" is very imprecise and unscientific and can't serve in my opinion as grounds for exclusion of opposing views. Also the expression "word salad" is offensive as implies that Mr. Langan's work is incomprehensible and that is untrue. A lot of words have entered the English language to describe for example new inventions and concepts. And that is what Mr. Langan did: coined new words to precisely express new concepts. From my understanding of his work, the words he used are not just empty terms but neologisms which express very important and deep truths about the reality we inhabit. Mich.Szczesny, 20:27, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> Please read the [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view policy]] ''carefully'' (especially [[WP:FALSEBALANCE]]) before making any further requests. [[User:Eggishorn|Eggishorn]] [[User talk:Eggishorn|(talk)]] [[Special:Contributions/Eggishorn|(contrib)]] 20:52, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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This is not a space to argue about the validity of Langan’s theory, its about Chris Langan and what the majority of notable and valid sources say about him and his views, your personal opinions notwithstanding. |
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Whether you think the earth is flat or there is a conspiracy against the west is your own views, but scholarly consensus is the arbiter I’m afraid. Keep that in mind! [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 00:03, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:Word salad or not, the prose of a cosmological theory is rubbish anyway without some equations making falsifiable predictions. So, {{tq|Did he make any novel, falsifiable predictions?}} is the only question that matters in this respect. Physics isn't literary criticism. If he did not make falsifiable predictions it is merely a story or merely metaphysics, it isn't a theory of physics. [[User:Tgeorgescu|Tgeorgescu]] ([[User talk:Tgeorgescu|talk]]) 01:54, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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== ALERT == |
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{{redacted}} [[User:DrL|DrL]] ([[User talk:DrL|talk]]) 21:24, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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At the top of this "talk" page, we see the following notice: "Asmodeus and DrL are banned from editing this article." DrL was banned from editing this page for her bias and malicious behavior. She is violating Wikipedia's rules by being here. [[User:EarlWhitehall|EarlWhitehall]] ([[User talk:EarlWhitehall|talk]]) 21:41, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:{{re|EarlWhitehall}} The arbitration remedy allows that she {{tq|may make suggestions on talk pages if [she] is not disruptive}} [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 21:44, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:{{re|GorillaWarfare}} I see. Thanks for making me aware of that. |
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Thanks for the input Gorilla warfare. [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 22:01, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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== What follows are edits from the individuals who have an IRL grudge against Langan == |
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I would like to add a personal views section with direct quotations from chris langan himself sourced to his own knowledge base website. |
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There appears to be confusion about his social and political views, so lets let langan settle it with his own mouth. [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 23:08, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Hi, Nigerian Chess Player. I think this is a good idea. Langan is active on social media sites, and many of the views he expresses online are highly controversial. I think it's important that people reading Langan's Wiki page be made aware of these views. [[User:EarlWhitehall|EarlWhitehall]] ([[User talk:EarlWhitehall|talk]]) 23:58, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Calling them high controversial is an understatement but lest I be accused of bias, lets put them up on the article and let the readers and the arbitration committee judge for themselves. |
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This article is outdated , since 2017 Me langan has been very active on social media and lots have happened since. It is my wish to make the readers of this wiki aware of these changes. [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 23:45, 23 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Apparently, Christopher Langan doesn't shy away from venting his eugenicis ideas in his Facebook group. Of course that he and his followers will always play semantic games and point to the different shades of grey that may exist (only in their minds) between eugenics and "anti-dysgenics". By simply following the discussions there, one can easily see that, either way, they pontificate, according to their own white supremacist views, what are the unwanted characteristics their ideal program should get rid of. |
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Regarding the CTMU, it doesn't even worth mention because, it's unoriginal- being a rip off of Eastern Spirituality and Philosophy, Wheeler's PAP, Charles Peirce's Triadic Model, Kashmir Shaivism and many others. It's intentionally obscure, 100% self-referential, thus defining truth within itself. Any attempt to rational criticism would be tantamount to a dog chasing its own tail. |
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The reason I think this Wikipedia page should be edited is that many inaccurate claims are being made, the sources are questionable, serving as a marketing tool for the individual in question. |
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Thank you. |
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[[User:ZenMechanics|ZenMechanics]] ([[User talk:ZenMechanics|talk]]) 23:50, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 24 February 2020 == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Christopher Langan|answered=yes}} |
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change 'The CTMU was criticized by mathematician Mark Chu Carroll' to 'The CTMU was criticized by software engineer Mark Chu Carroll' [[User:Johnnyyiu|Johnnyyiu]] ([[User talk:Johnnyyiu|talk]]) 05:18, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Markchu carrol is a computer scientist and a software engineer which involved lots of mathematics . |
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If Dr Mark Chu is not a mathematician neither is Langan a philosopher. [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 15:46, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:I have made the change, as Chu-Carroll describes himself as a computer scientist in his about page: [https://goodmath.scientopia.org/about-markcc/]. If there is a source that describes him as a mathematician we could amend it to "computer scientist and mathematician". [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 01:08, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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== Reverting to a neutral version per WP:BLP == |
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While discussions of the new content is being debated and before we reach a consensus as of what to include, I am reverting back to a neutral version per WP:BLP. [[User:Johnnyyiu|Johnnyyiu]] ([[User talk:Johnnyyiu|talk]]) 11:14, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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"Langan's IQ has been estimated by various sources to be between 195 and 210" |
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This is not true. What sources? Even inside the High IQ community these claims are taken to be veey exaggerated. There isn't a single reliable test that give such score interval while maintaining a modicum of accuracy and reliability. |
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[[User:ZenMechanics|ZenMechanics]] ([[User talk:ZenMechanics|talk]]) 12:45, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Its an outdated version skewed by langan himself and his lackeys to present him in a positive light . |
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zenmechanics is correct , there is no such thing as a recognized IQ above 160. [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 15:44, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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== Inaccurate part of article needs removing , langan didnt publish “many books and articles over the years” == |
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Langan’s book hasnt been published since he appeared in 1989, this is almost 31 years. The only “book” he published is a collection of essays half of which were already in the public domain called “art of knowing” . |
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Parts about his recent exploits need to clarify that the journal is not scientific and has an impact rating lower than 1 . [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 15:41, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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I agree with Nigerian Chess Player. Here is what an Amazon search for Langan's name returns: |
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https://www.amazon.com/s?k=chris+langan&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 |
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Langan's "book", The Art of Knowing, is simply a collection of essays. The other two "books" he has published are (1) a collection of his social media posts, and (2) a 36-page paper that he published in the discredited Cosmos & History journal, which is available for free online: http://www.cosmosandhistory.org/index.php/journal/article/view/788 [[User:EarlWhitehall|EarlWhitehall]] ([[User talk:EarlWhitehall|talk]]) 19:31, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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Agreed, except the last two is a fan collected material and the other a paper not a book. |
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{{Edit semi-protected|Christopher Langan|answered=yes}} |
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So this leaves that one book which is a collection of essays . |
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Change "Christopher Michael Langan (born March 25, 1952) is an American horse rancher and autodidact who has been reported to score very highly on IQ tests.[1] .[3][4][5][6]" to "Christopher Michael Langan is the author of the Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe, horse rancher, and autodidact who has been reported to score very highly on IQ tests." [[User:Tgoloboy|Tgoloboy]] ([[User talk:Tgoloboy|talk]]) 12:43, 31 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done for now:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{tlx|edit semi-protected}} template.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 12:57, 31 August 2022 (UTC) |
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== DOB and/or YOB == |
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Anyone disagrees ? [[User:Nigerian chess player|Nigerian chess player]] ([[User talk:Nigerian chess player|talk]]) 20:22, 24 February 2020 (UTC) |
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What are the BLP-good sources for these? Afaict, neither are in Gladwell's book. This [https://books.google.se/books?id=InPSBQAAQBAJ&pg=PR19&dq=%22Christopher+Langan%22+1952&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwsbah_9f7AhUiSPEDHZrnD9UQ6AF6BAgGEAI#v=onepage&q=%22Christopher%20Langan%22%201952&f=false] says c.1952. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 08:36, 1 December 2022 (UTC) |
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== Eugenics claim == |
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And, while we're at it, something BLP-good that clearly states he is married to [[Gina Lynne LoSasso]]. I didn't find anything. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 10:37, 1 December 2022 (UTC) |
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I have removed the following underlined content: |
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{{quote|<u>In an essay for the Mega Society’s journal “Noesis”, Langan – writing under the pseudonym Eric Hart – argued in favor of implementing a worldwide eugenics program to increase the overall intelligence of the human race.<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://megasociety.org/noesis/41/people.html|title=On the Differences between People, Birds, and Bees}}</ref> He also argued for eugenics in an interview with Errol Morris.<ref name="MORRIS">Morris, Errol. (August 14, 2001). [http://www.errolmorris.com/television/index.html "The Smartest Man in the World"]. ''First Person''.</ref> Because of his strong views on eugenics, race realism, and what he perceives as the deliberate replacement and genocide of the white race by Third World immigrants,</u> Langan has amassed a following among members of the alt-right.<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://forward.com/news/breaking-news/421234/christopher-langan-alt-right/|title=The Man With The World’s Highest IQ, Christopher Langan, Is Gaining A Following On The Far Right|date=2019-03-20}}</ref>}} |
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{{reftalk}} |
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== Re: a recent counter-revision == |
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I have no idea if Langan supports eugenics or not, but any claims that he does so '''must''' be sourced to a ''third-party'', reliable source. It's not acceptable to read an essay and interview by Langan, interpret from it that he supports eugenics, and then claim as much in the article—that is [[WP:OR|original research]]. Furthermore, while the ''Forward'' article says that Langan has a following among the alt-right, it does not say the reason for it is any of those described. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 01:03, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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@[[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] Yesterday, you undid a recent revision of mine that I think we should talk about. |
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:{{re|GorillaWarfare}} The article already contains a reference to Langan's Errol Morris interview, in which the man himself explicitly endorses eugenics. He says, and I quote, "That would enable us to solve our population problem right off the bat, and enable us to practice a benign form of eugenics." See for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA0gjyXG5O0 |
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Your justification was that the source provided was in fact fine. But in reality, it's just one man's interpretation of a single rather ambiguous sentence Chris said on Facebook. It's simply not the case that his interpretation of Chris' words is objectively correct. |
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:If the words of Langan himself are not evidence enough, what is? Even if it cannot be shown that Langan's support of eugenics is the reason for his following among members of the alt-right, the fact that he is an open proponent of forced sterilization ought to be included on his Wiki page, don't you think? [[User:EarlWhitehall|EarlWhitehall]] ([[User talk:EarlWhitehall|talk]]) 01:28, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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The author wrote: "At times, his grandiose delusions reach epic proportions. He’s a 9/11 truther, but with a twist: not only does he believe Bush staged the terrorist attacks, he wrote that the motive was to distract the public from learning the “truth” about the CTMU." |
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::As I have said, what would be enough would be a [[WP:RS|reliable]], [[WP:3P|third party]] source saying that Langan supports eugenics. The same goes for any claims he supports forced sterilization. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 01:30, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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His proof of this was that Chris Langan had said the following on Facebook: |
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:{{re|GorillaWarfare}} So the words of the man himself don't count for anything? I have to find some random journalist who can confirm that he did in fact say those words? That's absurd, but whatever. [[User:EarlWhitehall|EarlWhitehall]] ([[User talk:EarlWhitehall|talk]]) 01:33, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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"The CTMU has already been "all over the news", mostly at the turn of the millennium (just as promised); then professed Christian GW Bush and his decidedly non-Christian neocon vultures did everything they could to distract everyone by immediately staging 9/11, passing the PATRIOT Act, and invading Iraq and Afghanistan, thus immersing us in these last few years of Middle Eastern bloodshed[...]". |
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::We need a reliable third party to infer from what he is saying that he is supporting eugenics. If it is as obvious as you say, it should not be hard to find. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 01:38, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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In this context, "did everything they could to" does not necessarily imply that "distracting the public from learning about the CTMU" was a deliberate motive of theirs in "staging 9/11". I asked chatGPT whether it thought the phrasing was clear, and it agreed it was ambiguous. [[User:Dylancatlow1|Dylancatlow1]] ([[User talk:Dylancatlow1|talk]]) 15:10, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:{{re|GorillaWarfare}} Actually, it's extremely hard, because very few people have ever bothered to discuss the man or his views. But how's this instead? The Baffler article by Justin Ward states the following: "The denizens of /pol/ grant Langan the honorary title of 'based' for his screeds against miscegenation and the 'dysgenic' effects of the welfare state." Here we have a reliable third party source confirming Langan's opposition to miscegenation. So, will you at least edit the page to state that he has spoken out against racial interbreeding? Thanks. [[User:EarlWhitehall|EarlWhitehall]] ([[User talk:EarlWhitehall|talk]]) 01:44, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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::If very few people have bothered to discuss the man or his views, then Wikipedia should not be the place where they are first discussed. Wikipedia is meant to repeat information available from other sources, not act as its own source. As for the ''Baffler'' stuff, that does look like it can be added. Give me a moment to read that source entirely—it looks like it may be useable for some of the additional claims surrounding why he has amassed a following in the alt-right. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 01:53, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:::I've made [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christopher_Langan&type=revision&diff=942504240&oldid=942500870&diffmode=source this change]. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 02:18, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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: |
:As Wikipedians, we are supposed to summarize [[WP:RS]], not editor's analysis of WP:RS, with or without chatGPT. [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 15:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::We don't have to include every claim made by every "reliable source," though. And what makes this a reliable source? At the end of the day, it's just one man's interpretation of a rather ambiguous sentence said on Facebook, which I doubt few had paid attention to until his interpretation was reproduced in this article. Why should readers of this page be presented with it as though his interpretation were objectively correct? It's simply not. [[User:Dylancatlow1|Dylancatlow1]] ([[User talk:Dylancatlow1|talk]]) 15:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Great, I'm happy we could come to some sort of agreeable solution. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] <small>[[User talk:GorillaWarfare|(talk)]]</small> 03:07, 25 February 2020 (UTC) |
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:@[[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]], other interested, care to have an opinion? This concerns these edits:[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christopher_Langan&diff=prev&oldid=1220485190][https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christopher_Langan&diff=prev&oldid=1220507878] [[User:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|Gråbergs Gråa Sång]] ([[User talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång|talk]]) 15:15, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::At the very least, I think it's reasonable to quote Chris' actual words when presenting readers with "his claim" in this regard. What do you think? [[User:Dylancatlow1|Dylancatlow1]] ([[User talk:Dylancatlow1|talk]]) 15:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::I think [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christopher_Langan&diff=prev&oldid=1220507878 this text] is fine to include, though the sentence should probably be split so as to not be overlong. Dylancatlow1, as Gråbergs Gråa Sång mentions, Wikipedia relies on reliable sources' characterizations of events, not individual editors' characterizations. [[User:GorillaWarfare|GorillaWarfare]] (she/her • [[User talk:GorillaWarfare|talk]]) 16:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 07:48, 30 April 2024
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Semi-protected edit request on 31 August 2022
Change "Christopher Michael Langan (born March 25, 1952) is an American horse rancher and autodidact who has been reported to score very highly on IQ tests.[1] .[3][4][5][6]" to "Christopher Michael Langan is the author of the Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe, horse rancher, and autodidact who has been reported to score very highly on IQ tests." Tgoloboy (talk) 12:43, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
- Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{edit semi-protected}}
template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:57, 31 August 2022 (UTC)
DOB and/or YOB
What are the BLP-good sources for these? Afaict, neither are in Gladwell's book. This [1] says c.1952. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:36, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
And, while we're at it, something BLP-good that clearly states he is married to Gina Lynne LoSasso. I didn't find anything. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:37, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
Re: a recent counter-revision
@Gråbergs Gråa Sång Yesterday, you undid a recent revision of mine that I think we should talk about.
Your justification was that the source provided was in fact fine. But in reality, it's just one man's interpretation of a single rather ambiguous sentence Chris said on Facebook. It's simply not the case that his interpretation of Chris' words is objectively correct.
The author wrote: "At times, his grandiose delusions reach epic proportions. He’s a 9/11 truther, but with a twist: not only does he believe Bush staged the terrorist attacks, he wrote that the motive was to distract the public from learning the “truth” about the CTMU."
His proof of this was that Chris Langan had said the following on Facebook: "The CTMU has already been "all over the news", mostly at the turn of the millennium (just as promised); then professed Christian GW Bush and his decidedly non-Christian neocon vultures did everything they could to distract everyone by immediately staging 9/11, passing the PATRIOT Act, and invading Iraq and Afghanistan, thus immersing us in these last few years of Middle Eastern bloodshed[...]".
In this context, "did everything they could to" does not necessarily imply that "distracting the public from learning about the CTMU" was a deliberate motive of theirs in "staging 9/11". I asked chatGPT whether it thought the phrasing was clear, and it agreed it was ambiguous. Dylancatlow1 (talk) 15:10, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- As Wikipedians, we are supposed to summarize WP:RS, not editor's analysis of WP:RS, with or without chatGPT. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- We don't have to include every claim made by every "reliable source," though. And what makes this a reliable source? At the end of the day, it's just one man's interpretation of a rather ambiguous sentence said on Facebook, which I doubt few had paid attention to until his interpretation was reproduced in this article. Why should readers of this page be presented with it as though his interpretation were objectively correct? It's simply not. Dylancatlow1 (talk) 15:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- @GorillaWarfare, other interested, care to have an opinion? This concerns these edits:[2][3] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:15, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- At the very least, I think it's reasonable to quote Chris' actual words when presenting readers with "his claim" in this regard. What do you think? Dylancatlow1 (talk) 15:38, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think this text is fine to include, though the sentence should probably be split so as to not be overlong. Dylancatlow1, as Gråbergs Gråa Sång mentions, Wikipedia relies on reliable sources' characterizations of events, not individual editors' characterizations. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 16:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)