Coppertwig (talk | contribs) →Article too long?: Blackworm: Will you please list the references that say "circumcision is a painful procedure" ? |
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:I guess at this point I'm wondering what purpose this entire discussion page serves, when the boldest editors simply edit and revert to their liking, and make horrible, illogical arguments as to why such edits/reverts should remain in place. Eventually, when a topic has been "debated" enough, they ignore the discussion which by then passes into "Archive xx" and is lost forever (i.e. ignored). The net effect is, the article stays wildly biased. It's August 2007 and Jakew, you are arguing against inclusion of the phrase "circumcision is a painful procedure" when it is found verbatim is several of the exact same references you use to make pro-circumcision claims. I know you've read them, you know you've read them, so why not help the article by fixing the reference instead of reverting the claim? Your user page gives us the answer: your goal is not to improve the article, but to eliminate anti-circumcision POV from the article. When you add three or four others who seem to have the same goal, two of whom being administrators making threats exclusively against those who seem to want to include anti-circ material or exclude pro-circ material, while policy breaks by others go ignored, then you don't have a working, dynamic, growing article, you have what we have here -- a farce. I realize I'm "not contributing," but as far as this article is concerned I think whether you're seen as "helping" or "hurting" just depends on which side of the circumcision debate you are on. (And yes, there is a debate, it's not just "anti-circumcision zealotry" like our administrator Jayjg claims.) Again, show me once that you are willing to end this charade and *really* practice what you preach, and I'll be right there working as hard as I can to help. But continue to oppose or support all edits based on their content, while claiming it's based on policy or guideline and making weak arguments that don't support your claim, and I will continue to see this for the game it currently is. [[User:Blackworm|Blackworm]] 20:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC) |
:I guess at this point I'm wondering what purpose this entire discussion page serves, when the boldest editors simply edit and revert to their liking, and make horrible, illogical arguments as to why such edits/reverts should remain in place. Eventually, when a topic has been "debated" enough, they ignore the discussion which by then passes into "Archive xx" and is lost forever (i.e. ignored). The net effect is, the article stays wildly biased. It's August 2007 and Jakew, you are arguing against inclusion of the phrase "circumcision is a painful procedure" when it is found verbatim is several of the exact same references you use to make pro-circumcision claims. I know you've read them, you know you've read them, so why not help the article by fixing the reference instead of reverting the claim? Your user page gives us the answer: your goal is not to improve the article, but to eliminate anti-circumcision POV from the article. When you add three or four others who seem to have the same goal, two of whom being administrators making threats exclusively against those who seem to want to include anti-circ material or exclude pro-circ material, while policy breaks by others go ignored, then you don't have a working, dynamic, growing article, you have what we have here -- a farce. I realize I'm "not contributing," but as far as this article is concerned I think whether you're seen as "helping" or "hurting" just depends on which side of the circumcision debate you are on. (And yes, there is a debate, it's not just "anti-circumcision zealotry" like our administrator Jayjg claims.) Again, show me once that you are willing to end this charade and *really* practice what you preach, and I'll be right there working as hard as I can to help. But continue to oppose or support all edits based on their content, while claiming it's based on policy or guideline and making weak arguments that don't support your claim, and I will continue to see this for the game it currently is. [[User:Blackworm|Blackworm]] 20:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC) |
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::Blackworm: Will you please list the references that say "circumcision is a painful procedure" (and perhaps give the page number and where on the page they say it)? I was looking for references like that. --[[User:Coppertwig|Coppertwig]] 00:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC) |
::Blackworm: Will you please list the references that say "circumcision is a painful procedure" (and perhaps give the page number and where on the page they say it)? I was looking for references like that. --[[User:Coppertwig|Coppertwig]] 00:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC) |
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:::* "Newborns experience pain during circumcision." Circumcision: Position Paper on Neonatal Circumcision. American Academy of Family Physicians (2007). http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/clinical/clinicalrecs/circumcision.html |
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:::* "Circumcision is a painful operation." http://cks.library.nhs.uk/patient_information_leaflet/circumcision |
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:::* "ASPMN recognizes that neonatal circumcision is a painful procedure." ASPMN Position Statement on Neonatal Circumcision Pain Relief http://www.aspmn.org/pdfs/Pediatric%20Circumcision.pdf |
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:::* "Neonatal circumcision is a painful surgical procedure often performed without analgesia." New England Journal of Medicine Volume 336:1197-1201, April 24, 1997, Number 17 -- Efficacy and Safety of Lidocaine–Prilocaine Cream for Pain during Circumcision, http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/336/17/1197 |
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:::It's true, it's verifiable, and gosh darn it, it will never find its way into the Wikipedia article on circumcision except presented as speculation, conjecture, something to be ignored, from a few of the anti-circumcision zealots, like the crazy so-called "New England Journal of Medicine," or those kooks over at the "American Academy of Family Physicians," which is really just a front for a bunch of anti-Semites. [[User:Blackworm|Blackworm]] 05:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC) |
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Frenectomy in the intro paragraph
Jakew and the Cabal claim bias with inclusion. See their comments above.
I reiterate that because frenectomy in integral to circumcision ... required to complete ~25% of circs, only done along with circs, and potentially caused by circs ... the reader should have reference to the procedure in the intro. Again, it is a critical component of circumcision. See the intro that existed for years before the Cabal deleted...
Circumcision is the procedure that removes some or all of the foreskin (prepuce) from the penis. The frenulum may also be cut away at the same time, in a procedure called a frenectomy. The word "circumcision" comes from Latin circum (meaning "around") and caedere (meaning "to cut").TipPt 15:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. Based on my above discussion with Jakew, it is clear that a majority of the sources cited in the procedures section make reference to the frenelum as well as the foreskin. I would suggest fine tuning the above wording, perhaps by removing the word "away" since apparently the frenelum may also be cut through without being removed. Whatever the particular phrasing, I agree that the frenelum should be included in the definition of circumcision since it is clearly a part of the penis involved in the procedure. Zandrous 11:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
- Given the discussion above, it sounds reasonable to me to include mention of the frenulum in the intro. --Coppertwig 22:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
It appears that there is sufficient evidence to include mention of the frenelum in the intro. Now the question becomes, do we have sufficient sources to mention frenectomy specifically, or just the frenelum as a part of the penis involved in the procedure? I could not find mention of frenectomy in the sources that TipPt provided links to in the above section entitles "Avi Reverts Away Frenectomy." TipPt, if I am missing something could you direct my attention to the mentions of frenectomy? Zandrous 12:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Frenectomy has its own article, and, in my opinion, while it should be referenced somewhere in the section on methodology, it is inappropriate for the lead. -- Avi 14:38, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. However, I think mention of the frenelum belongs in the definition in the lead. Zandrous 17:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- This article is about circumcision in general. The frenulum is a detail that may or may not be involved. It doesn't belong in the lead. Jayjg (talk) 01:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. However, I think mention of the frenelum belongs in the definition in the lead. Zandrous 17:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
TipPt's continued lack of civility
For someone who “honestly apologized” for inappropriate remarks about other editors, espcially vis-a-vis use of the term “cabal,” on July 15, your further posts, Tip, are indicative of your insincerity, and perhaps duplicitousness, as can be seen from
-- Avi 14:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Leading paragraph
1) Is cutting also not "customary" in Israel (which isn't on the list unless counted as "Muslim" or considered part of the United States; either of which POVs seem far fetched in either direction). 2) What is the "other" bit in "so it is not prescribed in other forms of Christianity." other to "some African churches you mean? Surely "is not prescribed by the major Christian denominations" makes less of a tail wagging a dog? --BozMo talk 16:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the suggestiions.Michael Glass 01:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- It is probably best not to try to list such countries. It may be perceived as an exhaustive list. The World Health Organization include the following (source):
- ...using published data from the DHS and other sources 13, 53, 54, we estimated the number of non-Muslim and non-Jewish men circumcised in countries with substantial prevalence of non-religious circumcision (Angola, Australia, Canada, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, Ghana, Indonesia, Kenya, Madagascar, Nigeria, Philippines, the Republic of Korea, Uganda, United Kingdom, the United Republic of Tanzania, United States).
- The information may also be subject to change. Another WHO document advises that Eastern and Southern African nations have elected to scale up male circumcision. Jakew 11:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- It is probably best not to try to list such countries. It may be perceived as an exhaustive list. The World Health Organization include the following (source):
Positions of National Medical Associations
I updated the positions of the national medical associations with careful citations and the updates were removed. For instance, the article incorrectly states that the Canadian Pediatric Society "does not recommend routine circumcision". That was their 2004 position. Since 2007, they recommend that routine circumcision "should not be performed". I quoted the new position and cited it and yet my update was removed. It is simply not honest to pretend that they still just do not recommend the procedure, when they now actively recommend against it. Similarly, I cited the position statements of the Royal Australasian College of Physicians and their New Zealand counterparts stating their position that routince circumcision should not be performed. These too were removed from the article. It is not honest to pretend that these organizations do not recommend against circumcision.
Edwardsville 16:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- First, the source you cited is dated 1996, not 2007. It notes that a revision is in progress as of May '07.
- Second, your claim that "This is a significant change from earlier policy, which was simply not to recommend circumcision." was completely unsourced and violated WP:NOR.
- Third, they do not state that they recommend against the procedure. They do, however, comment on the specific case of circumcision as a routine procedure: "The overall evidence of the benefits and harms of circumcision is so evenly balanced that it does not support recommending circumcision as a routine procedure for newborns."
- Finally, your "quote" from the RACP is not their recommendation but is itself a quote from a third party. Jakew 16:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I cited the wrong page. Thank you for pointing out my mistake. I should have cited [7]
The claim that it is a strenghtening of the old policy is confirmed by the citation at the end of the paragraph, like everything else in the paragraph.
If you find the lack of the word "routine" misleading (and you shouldn't, since no medical association is against the prodedure when there is a medical reason) you could have just removed the word.
The correct place for the RACP quote is here. [8]
Edwardsville 16:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Hey - you also removed citations showing that the American Medical Associations, and the other national medical associations in the west, say that circumcision is painful and anesthetic should be used.
Edwardsville 18:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Seixas Family?!?
There is text beneath the picture on top of the article that says:
- Seixas Family circumcision set and trunk, ca. eighteenth century Wooden box covered in cow hide with silver implements: silver trays, clip, pointer, silver flask, spice vessel.
Which "Seixas Family"? There is mention of some Seixas Family in this text without explaination (or helpful wikilink) about what or who this Seixas Family is. This should be fixed to avoid confusion.
Also, this picture of little wooden box looks creepy in its context. --antiXt 20:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Uhm,... anybody!?! Please do not ignore - do something constructive instead of constant fighting. Both sides. --antiXt 17:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Follow the image link, it is a library of congress picture. -- Avi 16:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Edits and reverts
I support many of the edits that Edwardsville made today, and except for a few of them, I don't see explanations on the talk page as to why they were reverted. I hope to find time to comment in more detail later. --Coppertwig 22:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Most of them are personal opinions. Jayjg (talk) 01:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Circumcision is a painful operation [1] and the American Medical Association, like other national medical associations in the west, state that it should only be performed with anesthesia [2]. Doesn't sound like personal opinion.
- While there is debate about whether penile sensitivity is lost, it is obvious that there is a loss of sensation from the foreskin. A case where something on which there is no debate is targetted? Verifiability over truth, I guess. We cannot verify whether a male gets sensation from his severed foreskin. Wow -- and you wonder why I make Orwellian references on this discussion page. In any case, Jayjg, maybe you could restrict your edits to what you consider opinion rather than wholesale reversion as is common here. Blackworm 09:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I suggest that you contemplate, for a moment, the consequences for the article if it could include anything that is 'obvious' to at least one person. The article would be a mess of unverifiable, non-neutral, and perhaps self-contradictory nonsense. There is a very good reason why policy requires us to only include information that is explicitly stated by a reliable source. Unfortunately, the claims which you've quoted above do not come close. Jakew 11:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- It is not a question of "at least one person." No one I would judge to be sane would claim that the owner of the foreskin derives sensation from his severed foreskin after circumcision. The good reason behind using RS's should not allow us to take leave of our reason. This is clearly a case of WP:IAR if there ever was one: ultimately, the section is better with that sentence than without it. But there are so many better examples of totally disputed claims, incorrect and misleading summaries, POV-forks, and even a reference to something published by you, Jakew -- an active editor, in a laughably clear breach of conflict of interest. When presented with the evidence, you simply deny and revert without any logical explanation or even any denial of obvious logical contradictions. Four or five strong willed people, with two having administrative power, are enough to keep this charade going forever. Despite someone erasing the totally-disputed flag (without any consensus reached here), you can be sure this article is, in fact, totally disputed. Blackworm 08:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- Comments on some edits that were reverted: [9]
- "Indeed, Galatians 5:2 appears to forbid the practice, though few Christian churches uphold this rule." This sounds like opinion: it might "appear" to some people to forbid it. An exact quote from Galatians might be OK (though is it sufficiently relevant for this article? Maybe in an article on circumcision and religion?) or your statement backed up by a reference to a source that gives that opinion about Galatians.
- "Indeed, in Galatians 5:2, he goes so far as to say "behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing" [3]. " This is verifiable. Again, I'm not sure whether it's needed. I think the whole religion section should be shorter in this article, and most stuff like this moved to an article about circumcision and religion.
- "Some organizations have been formed as support groups for men who are resentful about being circumcised" (changed "upset with" to "resentful about") I support the "resentful about". It sounds more specific and accurate to me. "Upset" sounds undignified, like a general loss of control over one's feelings rather than a specific feeling about a specific thing. Alternatives include: "who wish they had not been circumcised", "who feel regretful about..." etc.
- "Circumcision is a painful operation [4] and the American Medical Association, like all western national medical associations, recommends the use of anaesthesia [5]. Despite this, Stang, 1998, found only 45% ..." I support this edit. References are given to support the assertions. Jayjg said in an edit summary while reverting, "rv POV and/or OR edits to last by michael glass". Please support your statement that these assertions are POV. Please find references stating that circumcision is not painful. The reference given clearly states that neonates show signs of pain (reaction to noxious stimuli).
- Re Taddio 1997. I'm not sure I can immediately see this study online. Could someone fix the link and/or provide a quote here on the talk page from that article to support the statement that they say the results are speculative? (I might be able to do this later.)
- "While penile sensitivity may or may not be reduced by circumcision, it goes without saying that all sensation is lost from the foreskin." I support including this sentence. It's a good summary of the next couple of sentences, and is much easier to quickly understand what is being said. It's not unverifiable: it's supported by the reference(s) described in the sentences that follow it.
- "As of 2007, the Canadian Pediatric Society recommends that "circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed" [6]. This is a significant change from earlier policy, which was simply not to recommend circumcision. " I support including this information. It's important and relevant, and supported with a reference.
- ". It states that circumcision "should not be routinely performed" [7], It recommends, " I support this edit. It's supported by a reference. It looks like an accurate representation of the position of that association. It's quite relevant to this article.
- "This is also the policy of the Paediatric Society of New Zealand Cite error: A
<ref>
tag is missing the closing</ref>
(see the help page)." Do they really have exactly the same words? Someone should check. Whether or not, the policy of this organization also deserves to be mentioned in this article.
- "This is also the policy of the Paediatric Society of New Zealand Cite error: A
- I hope to have time to comment on some other edits later. Feel free to discuss the above.
Please put your comments here:[i.e. below rather than interspersed in mine; thanks for having done that.] --Coppertwig 17:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I hope to have time to comment on some other edits later. Feel free to discuss the above.
(unindenting) Let me reply in turn:
- "Indeed, Galatians 5:2 appears..." agree: opinion.
- "Indeed, in Galatians 5:2, he goes so far as to say..." -- Need to eliminate "goes so far" and "indeed", but the quote itself is not a problem.
- "Some organizations have been formed as support groups..." -- ok, agree with you.
- "Circumcision is a painful operation" -- reference does not explicitly make this claim. Furthermore, "like all western national medical associations" appears to be OR.
- Re Taddio 1997, see here. The final paragraph reads: "The post-hoc nature of our analyses and the small sample sizes make our conclusions speculative. Nevertheless, we suggest that analgesia should be routine for circumcision to avoid possible long-term effects in infant boys' pain responses." (emph added)
- "While penile sensitivity may or may not be reduced by circumcision, it goes without saying that all sensation is lost from the foreskin" -- personal opinion. It is unverifiable. It may be a verifiable fact that such an argument has been made, however.
- "As of 2007, the Canadian Pediatric Society recommends that "circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed" -- wrong. The source cited, as noted above, is dated 1996, not 2007. It is already summarised in the text. The comment that "This is a significant change from earlier policy, which was simply not to recommend circumcision" appears to be pure original research.
- "It states that circumcision" -- as noted above, this is not the recommendation of the cited source, but is in fact a quote from a different document. Thus it severely misrepresents the source.
- "This is also the policy of the Paediatric Society of New Zealand..." The RACP policy is a policy of several sub-organisations, including the NZ society. There's no particular reason to name each of these individually. Jakew 18:57, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for taking the time to reply in detail. I edited in "resentful about". More later. --Coppertwig 21:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Re Galatians 5:2, I agree that "goes so far" and "indeed" are implying a particular point of view and that the quote itself might be OK without them.
- Re pain: Here's another reference: [10]
- OK, this and the other reference may not state explicitly that there is pain. They indicate that newborns undergoing circumcision have higher-pitched cries, changes in heart rate and other reactions usually associated with noxious stimuli. How about if we say something like "Newborns undergoing circumcision without anesthesia show higher-pitched cries, changes in heart rate and other reactions often associated with pain." However, please answer this question: do you doubt that circumcision is painful? Are you actually challenging the assertion that circumcision is painful, and are you not personally convinced that it is? If no one is seriously challenging the assertion, then I would prefer to keep a shorter, simpler statement such as "circumcision is a painful procedure", to avoid unnecessarily complicating the article and taking up the reader's time. I think that given these references, the statement that circumcision is painful is not likely to be challenged.
- Re the link to the Taddio article: Thanks for providing a link. I think the references section in the article needs to be fixed up a bit. We now have two articles: Taddio 1995 and Taddio 1997. The first seems to be a preliminary study and the second a similar but more complete study. For the first one, the link you provided gives the full text available without registration. I think it would be a good idea to put this in the references list for the benefit of readers who would like easy online access to the text. The second, better study apparently requires registration at The Lancet to view it. The link given in the references section goes to a page saying something like "page not found" (if you're not logged in). I think we need to fix this to go to a useful link, such as a page at The Lancet that displays at least the title of the study to people who are not logged in. Although registration is free, it takes time and requires providing personal information and agreeing to terms and conditions, which is why I think it would be useful to list both studies in the reference list.
- The 1995 study says the results are "speculative". The 1997 study includes a somewhat larger sample size and is "prospective", and does not contain the word "speculative".
- Here's a quote from the 1997 study. I suggest that we include these words or something very similar in the article: "Despite evidence that circumcision causes intense pain and short-term alterations in infant feeding, sleeping, and crying behaviours,1–3 analgesia is rarely given."
- Re "like all western national medical assocations": good point. I think it would be unwise to make a generalization like this in the article: it could turn out to be wrong, (it's hard to even define the list of which countries this means). Better to list the particular medical associations being referred to. Unless maybe there's a good quote from a reliable source making this claim.
- Re sensation in the foreskin: please answer: do you seriously believe that people with their foreskin removed do not necessarily lose all sensation in their foreskin? The paragraph in a version of the article you reverted was:
- "While penile sensitivity may or may not be reduced by circumcision, it goes without saying that all sensation is lost from the foreskin. Boyle et al. (2002) argued that circumcision and frenectomy remove tissues with "heightened erogenous sensitivity," stating "the genitally intact male has thousands of fine touch receptors and other highly erogenous nerve endings—many of which are lost to circumcision."[8] They concluded, "Evidence has also started to accumulate that male circumcision may result in lifelong physical, sexual, and sometimes psychological harm as well.""
- If you're seriously challenging the statement that all sensation is lost from the foreskin, how about a statement like "the circumcised male has lost the ability to feel sensation with the part of the body that was removed." I think this is an important point, obvious once pointed out but that might not occur to a mother considering having an infant circumcised, so it's important to include it in the article. Maybe you could suggest a different wording?
- Re Canadian Paediatric Society [http:www.cps.ca] The 1996 statement says "Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed." The website says this statement is under revision. I agree that (without more information, anyway) we shouldn't say there's a significant change in policy.
- You're right: New Zealand is covered by the RACP. The RACP statement (Australasia) says "The CPS recommended 'Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed'... . ... the RACP concurs with these statements and endorses ... that 'Neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication'". I think these statements should be mentioned in the article. --Coppertwig 16:04, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- Re pain control: The CPS statement says "The evidence of the need for pain control is strong,". The RACP statement says "Circumcision is now generally performed with local or general anaesthesia". Edwardsville, I don't see statements that anaesthesia "should" be used. If I missed them, perhaps you can supply them to support your statement. --Coppertwig 16:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- Jakew, please explain in more detail why you deleted this part: " and endorses statements by other medical societies that "circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed" and that "neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication"." How is that a "mispresentation"? Rather than simply deleting it, would you please put it back in and edit it so that in your opinion it's no longer a misrepresentation? Would it be OK with you if I put into the article the following exact words from the position statement: "The CPS recommended 'Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed' ... the RACP concurs with these statements and endorses ... that 'Neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication'"." That's wordier than what I originally put in and I think the increased wordiness is unnecessary, but if you think it's necessary to avoid a misunderstanding it's OK with me. Do you think even more words are needed to fill in the parts where I put three dots? --Coppertwig 16:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- The first problem is that the source is slightly unclear: it does not specify whether they mean that they concur with the policy statements cited ("statements"), or with the specific sentences ("statements"). The second problem is that the CPS and AAP statements belong in the relevant sections, not under Australasia. The third problem is that the RACP are already quoted as saying that "there is no medical indication for routine neonatal circumcision", and we do not need to introduce repetition. A final problem is that to include quotes with which the source agrees is a poor reflection of their own policy, and appears to be an example of cherry-picking words in order to present circumcision in the most negative light possible, rather than to fairly represent the sources. Jakew 17:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- Jakew, please explain in more detail why you deleted this part: " and endorses statements by other medical societies that "circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed" and that "neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication"." How is that a "mispresentation"? Rather than simply deleting it, would you please put it back in and edit it so that in your opinion it's no longer a misrepresentation? Would it be OK with you if I put into the article the following exact words from the position statement: "The CPS recommended 'Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed' ... the RACP concurs with these statements and endorses ... that 'Neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication'"." That's wordier than what I originally put in and I think the increased wordiness is unnecessary, but if you think it's necessary to avoid a misunderstanding it's OK with me. Do you think even more words are needed to fill in the parts where I put three dots? --Coppertwig 16:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- Re pain, you ask "Are you actually challenging the assertion that circumcision is painful, and are you not personally convinced that it is?" My main concern is with the fact that we should not make a claim that is not explicitly stated by a source. My personal view, since you ask, is that circumcision without anaesthesia is likely painful, but that circumcision with appropriate anaesthesia is not.
- Re the Taddio study, we must always link to the text at the publisher's site in preference to CIRP. Please see Wikipedia:Convenience links#Reliability.
- Re your suggestion that "Here's a quote from the 1997 study. I suggest that we include these words or something very similar in the article", I think this is a poor idea. The purpose of that study was not to assess how frequently anaesthesia is given, so it can only be considered an opinion.
- Re sensation in the foreskin, I'm more concerned with accurate sourcing and the absence of original research than with my own view. Incidentally, our purpose is not to convince mothers to circumcise or not to circumcise, but only to summarise reliable sources. Please see WP:NOT. Jakew 16:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for your replies. Re pain: Oh, I see what you mean: we can't just say that circumcision is painful, because it isn't when anaesthesia is used. You're right about that.
- Re the Taddio studies: It's strange. The 1995 study is listed as a reference in the 1997 study, referring to it as another Lancet article, but I can't seem to find it on the Lance website. Maybe just linking to the 1997 article is fine, but at least the link should be fixed so it doesn't say something like "page not found" to people who are not logged in. I might attempt to do this later.
- Re the quote from the 1997 study: perhaps you're right.
- Re sensation in the foreskin: no comment for now.
- Note my comment above asking you to explain what you meant by "misrepresentation" -- you might have missed that due to the edit conflict. --Coppertwig 17:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- Re the RACP statement. I don't see how any of that adds up to "misrepresenation". The statement with "...should not be..." seems to me to be a stronger statement than "no medical indication"; anyway they don't mean quite the same thing. Therefore I would like to see both or at least the "should not be" one included. (The "neonatal male..." one is pretty much just a repetition of "no medical indication" and not needed, as you point out.) Since they state in their position statement that they "concur" with this, I think it's quite fair to state that that is their position. As to being unclear: whether they mean that they concur with those sentences or with the whole position statement containing those sentences, either way they do concur with those sentences since they're contained in those position statements, so any such lack of clarity if present is irrelevant for our purposes here. --Coppertwig 17:50, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- That a statement appears to be more strongly against circumcision is a very poor reason for inclusion. We are not an anti-circumcision website, and we have a non-negotiable policy of neutral point of view. That means that we can't collect the most anti- (or pro-) circumcision comments in a source and present them together. Instead, we must ensure that we fairly summarise the most representative points.
- I agree that they concur, and that this is part of their policy statement; however it is far from a key point and as such a rather poor choice of quote to use in summarising their statement.
- Finally, the ambiguity presents us a problem. If they meant that they agree only with those sentences in the statements, then such a quote does not misrepresent them. If, however, they meant that they agree with the entire statements from the AAP and CPS, then it would misrepresent their position if we cherry-picked only certain phrases. Jakew 18:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- It doesn't misrepresent their position to quote the very sentences they chose to quote when they were saying that they concurred. The strongest sentences are the most interesting. If they have a strongest pro-circumcision sentence perhaps we should quote it too. --Coppertwig 19:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
- I can only suggest that you write an essay on the subject of 'interesting quotations about circumcision'. The article, however, is part of an NPOV encyclopaedia. Hence, the priority is to present sources in a fair and representative manner. Jakew 10:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- It doesn't misrepresent their position to quote the very sentences they chose to quote when they were saying that they concurred. The strongest sentences are the most interesting. If they have a strongest pro-circumcision sentence perhaps we should quote it too. --Coppertwig 19:11, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
(<<<outdent) The strongest sentences in a position statement are the most representative of that position statement. --Coppertwig 17:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- What's your basis for making such an assertion? Jakew 18:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- Please give your opinion about how to select the most representative statement(s) from a position statement, if you don't agree with mine. --Coppertwig 21:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- I acknowledge that it is a hard problem. In general, I would say that 1) such statements are to be found in the organisation's own 'conclusions/summary/overview/recommendations' section, 2) that they should be their own words, rather than a third-party quote, 3) that they should be relatively self-contained and qualifiers should not be excluded, and 4) that they should cover the policy regarding both routine and elective (including religious) circumcisions. That's not an exhaustive list, but it is at least a start.
- I should note that, in the footnotes, we have fairly complete quotations from the organisations already. Jakew 10:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm impressed, really. You've managed to find an objective way to choose one sentence rather than another from a position statement -- though I wouldn't necessarily want to be restricted always to the summaries of things. I guess when the position statement has something in bold type, that's sort-of a clue, too. --Coppertwig 01:31, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
- There is no valid reason for "4) that they should cover the policy regarding both routine and elective (including religious) circumcisions" unless you insist that the strong societal stigma against saying anything negative against religious circumcision carry over into watered-down, non-medical, PR statements about all circumcision. Statements about circumcision which are freed from the stigma of offending those who circumcise for religious reasons, are the most fair, balanced, and in a medical context, accurate statements. That's why we don't have any in the article (Jakew reverts them). And by the way "routine" circumcision *is* "elective." Blackworm 20:32, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
- I mean that their policies regarding both routine circumcision and elective circumcision should be included, Blackworm. If, for example, the AAP were to release a statement in which they stated that no circumcisions should be performed for any reasons, then that could certainly be included. As it stands, however, few (if any) major medical organisations are opposed to elective circumcision.
- As for elective vs routine, I am using routine to mean "for all infant boys" and elective to mean the parents choosing/electing the procedure, as in:
- "Scientific studies show some medical benefits of circumcision. However, these benefits are not sufficient for the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) to recommend that all infant boys be circumcised. Parents may want their sons circumcised for religious, social and cultural reasons. Since circumcision is not essential to a child’s health, parents should choose what is best for their child by looking at the benefits and risks." [11]
- "Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child."[12]
- Hope that helps. Jakew 20:48, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
- Please give your opinion about how to select the most representative statement(s) from a position statement, if you don't agree with mine. --Coppertwig 21:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Dispute tag
The dispute tag is accurate. There's currently dispute as to whether circumcision is (always) surgery, and whether the strongest statements from medical association position statements can be quoted in the article. Also the large section on religion occurring before much (or any?) mention of any harm or risk has been pointed out as being non-neutral. Etc. --Coppertwig 22:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Nevertheless, although what the dispute tag says is accurate, it was not appropriate to put it on this article at this time, at least not in the way it was done. See Template:dispute and Wikipedia:Accuracy disputes. To use the dispute tag properly, I think you have to have disputes about at least five parts of the article, and you have to state clearly what they are and have a link from the tag to a section of the talk page that lists them. The tag only had a link to the top of the talk page. There has to be a way to know whether the disputes which were the reason for the tag have been resolved. The disputes I'm aware of don't seem to me to be enough for the disputed tag, and especially not the totally-disputed tag. I apologize for having commented above without first reading the instructions for dispute tags. (There are, however, some ongoing disputes that still need to be resolved.)
When adding, removing or changing dispute tags or other tags at the top of the article, please say in the edit summary exactly what tags you're changing. The article is no longer semi-protected, so please don't put a semi-protected tag on it. --Coppertwig 17:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Removed "Skin Bridge" Photo
I believe this photo was removed because it was obviously of an underaged child.71.198.175.226 22:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm confused as to which image you mean. Does that explain this edit? [13] To reduce confusion, editors should state the reason in the edit summary. --Coppertwig 16:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
To clarify, the photo showing an example of the skin bridge was removed but it has since been put back up by another use. It clearly appears to be the photo of an underage male, and as far as I know this is not legal to post even in medical use. Please correct me if I am wrong.
- Why would it be illegal; it is not pornographic? -- Avi 21:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
- It's still not clarified. Someone didn't sign their post, but worse than that, they didn't specify which image they're talking about. --Coppertwig 21:23, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Arbitration of content
The issue is content. The circumcision article is not factual in it's omission of highly pertinent facts, it's emphasis on relatively irrelevant information, and it's gross misrepresentations of fact.
I won't raise related issues again, and will have a concise list of topic problems in about a week.TipPt 19:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Definition of "vandalism"
In Jayjg's most recent edit, in which his edit description reads: "cleaning up the rest of some old vandalism," the following content is removed:
", though it is not prescribed by the major Christian denominations. It is not requirement of the other great world religions."
Wikipedia's official policy on vandalism states: "Apparent bad-faith edits that do not make their bad-faith nature inarguably explicit are not considered vandalism at Wikipedia."
Since none of the other definitions of vandalism in the policy seem to match this deleted material, then Jayjg, could you support your apparent claim that this material is both in bad faith, and that its "bad-faith nature" is "inarguably explicit? Blackworm 09:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good point. Please use accurate, useful edit summaries, everyone. I await Jayjg's response. --Coppertwig 12:59, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Article too long?
Is it just me, or does this page take a long time to load into a browser compared to a short page such as Canada's Food Guide? Maybe because it has so many references -- I think it takes time to process the footnotes. It might be a good idea to move some of the material into subpages. --Coppertwig 23:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
- The idea is to do that eventually, but for some reason it continues to be pushed off. Most likely due to the constant disputes. I'd really like to merge the Medical aspects with the medical article. Jake, is the latter ready? -- Avi 23:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
- To do so would be a blatant POV-fork. Why not create a "religious aspects of circumcision" page and merge all the religious aspects to that article? Blackworm 00:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- This article in itself should still be balanced, but it can be supported by other articles focussing on religious or medical aspects, and it can be shorter on the whole. Many of the references can be moved to those other articles, allowing this page to load more quickly. (I think there's too much about religion in this article anyway -- it would be good to move most of it to an article on religion and circumcision.) Alternatively, if the references are formatted a different way (not using the footnote feature) the page may load faster. They could look the same in the display but the wikitext would be more complicated. --Coppertwig 04:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- Black, please read WP:SUMMARY for an explanation of what was suggested. Summary style article construction is not a POV fork. In our case, "Medical" aspects is SO large as to justify its own article (which it actually has!). Should we be able to work out an NPOV compliant (and remember what NPOV means; it does NOT mean NO point of view) section, THAT IS SUFFICIENTLY LARGE, it too would merit its own article. POV forks are something different. Please see Wikipedia:Content forking. Thank you. -- Avi 15:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- The thing is, you can't have it both ways. The pro-circumcision authors controlling this article want to define circumcision as "a surgical procedure" (surgical = legitimate, good, beneficial, sterile, performed by experts -- *all* debatable POV notions carried by the word) in the first sentence of the article, but relegate the ugly, grisly medical details of circumcision, as well as any mention of the *actual* debate and controversy surrounding circumcision in the medical community, to a subpage they know most people won't read. Meanwhile, they encourage having a *larger* religious section in the main article, emphasizing circumcision as a tradition to be honored and respected. I don't buy it. It's a POV-fork. Offload the negative material regarding circumcision into subpages (most of this work has already been done), and retain and slowly add more positive material. Intimidate dissenting voices with tag-teaming and administrative threats, and maintain control. Since the #1 hit on Google for "circumcision" is this article, you control the absolute truth for millions of people. Fork away all that nasty "medical" stuff -- except how great circumcision is for AIDS, of course; that, I'm sure, will take up half the exclusively pro-circumcision summary. Blackworm 03:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
- Black, please read WP:SUMMARY for an explanation of what was suggested. Summary style article construction is not a POV fork. In our case, "Medical" aspects is SO large as to justify its own article (which it actually has!). Should we be able to work out an NPOV compliant (and remember what NPOV means; it does NOT mean NO point of view) section, THAT IS SUFFICIENTLY LARGE, it too would merit its own article. POV forks are something different. Please see Wikipedia:Content forking. Thank you. -- Avi 15:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- This article in itself should still be balanced, but it can be supported by other articles focussing on religious or medical aspects, and it can be shorter on the whole. Many of the references can be moved to those other articles, allowing this page to load more quickly. (I think there's too much about religion in this article anyway -- it would be good to move most of it to an article on religion and circumcision.) Alternatively, if the references are formatted a different way (not using the footnote feature) the page may load faster. They could look the same in the display but the wikitext would be more complicated. --Coppertwig 04:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- To do so would be a blatant POV-fork. Why not create a "religious aspects of circumcision" page and merge all the religious aspects to that article? Blackworm 00:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
(unindenting) Blackworm, it would really be appreciated if you could assume good faith and avoid making incivil accusations. I think that somewhere in there you're making some points that are at least worthy of serious discussion, but frankly if you make them in such a hostile and accusatory manner then it only makes people (including myself) reluctant to do so. Jakew 12:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
- I guess at this point I'm wondering what purpose this entire discussion page serves, when the boldest editors simply edit and revert to their liking, and make horrible, illogical arguments as to why such edits/reverts should remain in place. Eventually, when a topic has been "debated" enough, they ignore the discussion which by then passes into "Archive xx" and is lost forever (i.e. ignored). The net effect is, the article stays wildly biased. It's August 2007 and Jakew, you are arguing against inclusion of the phrase "circumcision is a painful procedure" when it is found verbatim is several of the exact same references you use to make pro-circumcision claims. I know you've read them, you know you've read them, so why not help the article by fixing the reference instead of reverting the claim? Your user page gives us the answer: your goal is not to improve the article, but to eliminate anti-circumcision POV from the article. When you add three or four others who seem to have the same goal, two of whom being administrators making threats exclusively against those who seem to want to include anti-circ material or exclude pro-circ material, while policy breaks by others go ignored, then you don't have a working, dynamic, growing article, you have what we have here -- a farce. I realize I'm "not contributing," but as far as this article is concerned I think whether you're seen as "helping" or "hurting" just depends on which side of the circumcision debate you are on. (And yes, there is a debate, it's not just "anti-circumcision zealotry" like our administrator Jayjg claims.) Again, show me once that you are willing to end this charade and *really* practice what you preach, and I'll be right there working as hard as I can to help. But continue to oppose or support all edits based on their content, while claiming it's based on policy or guideline and making weak arguments that don't support your claim, and I will continue to see this for the game it currently is. Blackworm 20:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
- Blackworm: Will you please list the references that say "circumcision is a painful procedure" (and perhaps give the page number and where on the page they say it)? I was looking for references like that. --Coppertwig 00:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- "Newborns experience pain during circumcision." Circumcision: Position Paper on Neonatal Circumcision. American Academy of Family Physicians (2007). http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/clinical/clinicalrecs/circumcision.html
- "Circumcision is a painful operation." http://cks.library.nhs.uk/patient_information_leaflet/circumcision
- "ASPMN recognizes that neonatal circumcision is a painful procedure." ASPMN Position Statement on Neonatal Circumcision Pain Relief http://www.aspmn.org/pdfs/Pediatric%20Circumcision.pdf
- "Neonatal circumcision is a painful surgical procedure often performed without analgesia." New England Journal of Medicine Volume 336:1197-1201, April 24, 1997, Number 17 -- Efficacy and Safety of Lidocaine–Prilocaine Cream for Pain during Circumcision, http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/336/17/1197
- It's true, it's verifiable, and gosh darn it, it will never find its way into the Wikipedia article on circumcision except presented as speculation, conjecture, something to be ignored, from a few of the anti-circumcision zealots, like the crazy so-called "New England Journal of Medicine," or those kooks over at the "American Academy of Family Physicians," which is really just a front for a bunch of anti-Semites. Blackworm 05:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- Blackworm: Will you please list the references that say "circumcision is a painful procedure" (and perhaps give the page number and where on the page they say it)? I was looking for references like that. --Coppertwig 00:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- ^ http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13585.html
- ^ http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13585.html
- ^ http://biblebrowser.com/galatians/5-2.htm
- ^ http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13585.html
- ^ http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13585.html
- ^ http://www.cps.ca/english/statements/FN/fn96-01.htm
- ^ http://www.racp.edu.au/hpu/paed/circumcision/index.htm#toc
- ^ Boyle, Gregory J (2002). "Male circumcision: pain, trauma, and psychosexual sequelae". Bond University Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences.
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