→First sentence: sounds good |
Apokryltaros (talk | contribs) |
||
Line 109: | Line 109: | ||
::::::::Before this thread was derailed, I was going to suggest changing the lede from "single event" to "events" or "series of events"--[[User:Apokryltaros|Mr Fink]] ([[User talk:Apokryltaros|talk]]) 02:36, 23 February 2014 (UTC) |
::::::::Before this thread was derailed, I was going to suggest changing the lede from "single event" to "events" or "series of events"--[[User:Apokryltaros|Mr Fink]] ([[User talk:Apokryltaros|talk]]) 02:36, 23 February 2014 (UTC) |
||
:::::::::I guess since you want to split hairs rather than respond to my point on the "creation of life" event, since Evolution clearly hinges on Abiogenisis and is germain to this ''Creation'' page, we'll have to agree to disagree and an actual dialogue can be saved for a future time. |
:::::::::I guess since you want to split hairs rather than respond to my point on the "creation of life" event, since Evolution clearly hinges on Abiogenisis and is germain to this ''Creation'' page, we'll have to agree to disagree and an actual dialogue can be saved for a future time. |
||
::::::::::Except that the reason why I'm not addressing your alleged point on Evolution allegedly hinging on Abiogenesis is that you don't actually need to go through explaining how life first began 4.75 billion years ago in order to study lineages of trilobites, fishes, or orchids, nor do you even need to go through explaining how life first began 4.75 billion years to study the mechanics of how "descent with modification" occurs. I would ask "how is the topic of the Primordial Soup directly germane to studying the lineage of the "Dusty Miller" ''Phalaenopsis'' orchids, but, it's my personal experience with you that you automatically dismiss literally I say, using false accusations, character assassinations and poisoning the well fallacies as justification.--[[User:Apokryltaros|Mr Fink]] ([[User talk:Apokryltaros|talk]]) 17:23, 24 February 2014 (UTC) |
|||
:::::::::That being said, I agree that we are way off point so please feel free to "re-rail", [[User:Apokryltaros|Mr Fink]]. Your suggestion sounds good to me. [[User:Ckruschke|Ckruschke]] ([[User talk:Ckruschke|talk]]) 17:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke |
:::::::::That being said, I agree that we are way off point so please feel free to "re-rail", [[User:Apokryltaros|Mr Fink]]. Your suggestion sounds good to me. [[User:Ckruschke|Ckruschke]] ([[User talk:Ckruschke|talk]]) 17:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke |
||
::::::::::Sure.--[[User:Apokryltaros|Mr Fink]] ([[User talk:Apokryltaros|talk]]) 17:23, 24 February 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:23, 24 February 2014
![]() | This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Creationism was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
Index |
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Situation in Germany
The text says "Approximately 20% of people disbelieve evolutionary theory in Germany." This is taken from an article in Der Spiegel where it says: "This type of reasoning hasn't stopped people from doubting the theory of evolution. In Germany, 20 percent of the population doesn't believe in the theory; in the US, it's closer to one-third." But theres a problem with that. The article in Der Spiegel itself doesnt name any source. In fact its completely unclear where that number comes from. No study is named, no source, nothing at all. Not even if thats the authors opinion or someone elses. So, while that number is sourced techicaly correct in terms of Wikipedia rules, it is still avery weak. It seems to me as if that number is there just because theres no better one available. Deleting that number from the text and thereby saying 'we dont know' seems the honest and truthfull way to go. But I understand that this is an explosive topic, and I am a 'wikipedia noob', so I wont edit it myself. Please concider to delete or change that line. Thanks! 83.216.242.196 (talk) 02:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Good evening, 83. I found a 2011 Ipsos poll that puts the figure at 12%. I added that and a citation to the text. The Der Spiegel isn't nearly as good, but it is considered a reliable, secondary source so I'm not willing to get rid of it quite yet. Thanks for the comment! Garamond Lethet
c 05:42, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you! Good job with those little changes and the addition.83.216.255.208 (talk) 11:05, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
New Pew poll released
Public's Views on Human Evolution, Dec. 30 2013. If someone wants to take a shot at update the US section, have at it. Garamond Lethet
c 18:37, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Ken Ham, "Scientist"
A scientist is, according to [wikitionary], scientist (plural scientists)
One whose activities make use of the scientific method to answer questions regarding the measurable universe. A scientist may be involved in original research, or make use of the results of the research of others.
Clearly Ken Ham is not one. As for Creation Scientist, I don't think it captures the essence of why Ken Ham is important. A word along the lines of public speaker, or advocate would be better. I've reverted to the original; Ken Ham is a Young-Earth creationist who helped start Creation Science Foundation in Queensland, Australia
Any thoughts? SPACKlick (talk) 15:35, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
- You may be right, but that's not a convincing argument: a believer in Christian Science is properly referred to as a "Christian Scientist", so if reliable sources refer to practitioners of Creation Science as "Creation Scientists" I expect we'll follow WP:RS and use that term. However, a quick check at google scholar leads me to believe "creationist" is the preferred term, and that's how Ken Ham self-identifies: "When someone says to me, ‘Oh, so you’re one of those fundamentalist, young-Earth creationists,’ I reply, ‘Actually, I’m a revelationist, no-death-before-Adam redemptionist!’ (which means I’m a young-Earth creationist!)." AiG Newsletter Reprint Garamond Lethet
c 16:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
- Agree. I think I just had a different definition of "scientist" in my head than you - so no blood, no foul. Ckruschke (talk) 18:19, 4 February 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke
Definition of 'Creationist'
Do others share my concern that the term 'Creationist' is defined far too broadly in the lead. According to the definition given on Wikipedia, all theists and even deists are creationists. For example, Martin Gardner and Thomas Jefferson would both come under this definition.
This is not how the term 'creationist' is used in practice in the outside world, (nor is it how the word is used in the body of the article itself the article itself, nor in this Talk page). (Peter Ells (talk) 20:41, 11 February 2014 (UTC))
- Completely agree, this is a very vague first sentence, and the article looks like its casting the net too large, IRWolfie- (talk) 00:50, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
- Just for the record, the opening sentence I was complaining of was "Creationism is the religious belief that life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being." This has since been improved. (Peter Ells (talk) 15:40, 12 February 2014 (UTC))
Types of Creationism
In the opening sentence to the section Types of Creationism, I've changed "Creationism" to "Creationism (broadly construed)". This is because Theistic evolution no longer counts as Creationism, at least as this is now strictly (and I think correctly) defined in the lead.
I tried to make a minimal change without belaboring the point. (Peter Ells (talk) 16:19, 12 February 2014 (UTC))
First sentence
I also have some issues with the first sentence defining creationism, similar to IRWolfie above. Particularly the last words "... in a single creation event." Are there any references for that definition with the "single event" distinction that includes all life? I understand that that definition probably covers many self-declared creationist viewpoints. But I wonder about what it excludes. For example, consider someone who believes that some god created the universe, when then unfolded through physical processes, including biogenesis and evolution. According to the "single event" and wording of the first sentence, that person would not be a "creationist", even though she believes that a supernatural being created the universe! (I know this is a contentious topic, and I don't mean to soapbox.) Perhaps my understanding of the term is incorrect, and my example should not be considered a creationist. Regardless, can we not find a WP:RS to cite for our definition? If I can find a candidate reference, does anyone reading have rights to edit the article? SemanticMantis (talk) 22:31, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- 1) Generally speaking, for an example, the narrative described in the beginning of the Book of Genesis is thought to be "one single event," or at least, the part where God created the earth and Universe in the first day.
- 2) The idea that some god(s) created the universe, then unfolded everything through physical processes is "Theistic Evolutionism," and is considered very distinct from Creationism, especially since creationists often consider theistic evolutionists as being traitorous devilspawn as bad as, if not a thousand times worse than atheists.--Mr Fink (talk) 22:55, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying, User:Apokryltaros/Mr Fink. As I understand your point 1) though, even the Genesis story doesn't fit out exact definition, because (according to Genesis), the universe and living organisms were created in separate events (i.e. different "days")!
- A related inquiry: I know that some (but not all) dictionaries put an emphasis on Genesis in the definition of creationism, too the point of making it a sine qua non. Does that not seem too limiting? E.g. If I believe in the Hindu (Norse, Shinto, etc) telling of creation, then I am not espousing creationism? I don't think I'm suffering from the etymological fallacy here, but I suppose that is a valid counterargument. Also, I guess that any -ism will have plenty of different opinions on how they should be defined. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:09, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- You're right, perhaps we should tweak the lede to "a single event or series of related events"?
- As for your other inquiry, the article focuses primarily on the Genesis-based Creationism because it is the most prominent. Creationism as it is known today is the anti-science movement formulated and propagated by Christians, and Muslim Creationists crib/steal all of their arguments from Christian Creationists, and not the actual belief that the world/universe was created in a supernatural event or series of events: Mostly because most other recognized, organized religions either do not go out of their way to denounce the teaching of evolutionary biology, and other sciences that (potentially) conflict with their religious precepts, or they simply borrow/modify/steal the various anti-science arguments already put forth by Christian Creationists.--Mr Fink (talk) 16:51, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Uhhhh - what...? Creationism by definition IS the belief that God created the Universe the way it is now. I'm not sure where you are coming up with your POV that "as it is known today" has somehow changed the definition. Beyond that, claiming its an anti-science movement is clearly a biased non-NPOV on your part and clouds anything else you'd have to say on the subject.
- Also the narrative in Genesis is NOT "one single event" - since we are clearly not narrowing our scope to the creation of the Universe on this page, everything else is created on different days/by different events. Besides, if we want to narrow our scope to "life was created by a single event by process that are extra-normal", this would by definition include all evolutionists since "no one" can tell us what sparked life from non-life... Ckruschke (talk) 20:59, 21 February 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke
- So, if Creationism is not an anti-science movement even though its proponents are united in their hatred of Evolutionary Biology, and are well-documented in their unceasing efforts to sabotage science education in the US in order to teach religious propaganda in classrooms, can you explain how Creationism is not an anti-science movement, or do you just enjoy trying to attack me through character-assassination, false accusations and really crude attempts at poisoning the well fallacies?--Mr Fink (talk) 23:07, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Mr Fink - I was simply pointing out the incredible bias and opinion in your argument of which you are claiming as truth. This is not an attack - this is an observation that your truth is really opinion. One should assume good faith - as I continue to do so - and I apologize if my reply to you came off as harsh. I realize that this is a hot issue and everyone has firey opinions on the matter, but we can have an intellectual discussion w/o getting our backs up. Creationists are not "united in their hatred of Evolutionary Biology" any more than Evolutionists are "united in their hatred of Creation". Creationists do not AGREE with Evolutionary science - plain and simple. Its a fallacy that some anti-Creationists spread that Creationism is anti-science (or attempt to frame the argument as "Christians don't believe in Biology/Geology/insert your science here) all in an attempt to corner adherents of this theory in the box of being "knuckle-dragging troglodytes".
- So what is science? The further exploration of science theory follows through prediction, observation, and repetition. If something happens that isn't predicted by your experiment, either you did it wrong or you have further investigation to perform in order to produce science that confirms (or ultimately refutes) your predictions. If something happens during your experiment that isn't observable, did it really happen? Early claims of cold fusion are a good example of this - falsifying observations - which is one of the reasons why the Large Hadron Collider devotes so much electronics and hardware to detectors - they want to make sure they observe and document their science. Finally if you cannot repeat your experiment with the same findings, again either you did something wrong or the one time you got observation A you did something different then when you got observation B. Again, this requires further research to figure out what happened. So lets break Creation/Evolution down to the lowest common denominator - how did life come from non-life? So if I make the prediction that life came from "a rock" and then despite 150 yrs of testing I was unable to observe through experiment life coming from "a rock", is this science or anti-science? How about if I predict that life was planted here from a comet - that's an actual, credible prediction - right? However, I have neither observed actual life on comets or even the building blocks of life (more than just an amalgamation of elements) - let alone repeat this event - again is this science or anti-science? What the evolutionary model is based on is an EXTRA-normal event - life from non-life - or in other words, a miracle. In the same vein, Creationism hinges on life from non-life through an extra-normal event - the miracle of God's creation. So which theory is more hinged on faith and science or anti-science? Ckruschke (talk) 18:45, 22 February 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke
- Among other things, you are assuming that Creationism and Evolution(ary Biology) are equal, equivalent alternatives, which they are not, and you are also conflating Evolution(ary Biology) with Abiogenesis, which are, in fact, two different sciences. And having said that, if we are to assume that Creationism and Evolution are two equal, equivalent alternatives, where is all the research and peer-reviewed studies done in Creationism, and why are Creationists so reluctant to use Creationism as a science?--Mr Fink (talk) 00:04, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Life from a "rock" and anti-science are both straw man arguments. Regardless, this talk page is not the place for this type of discussion. Has the issue of the "single creation event" been addressed, or what references are available and how should we proceed if a change is in order? Rmosler | ● 01:53, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Before this thread was derailed, I was going to suggest changing the lede from "single event" to "events" or "series of events"--Mr Fink (talk) 02:36, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- I guess since you want to split hairs rather than respond to my point on the "creation of life" event, since Evolution clearly hinges on Abiogenisis and is germain to this Creation page, we'll have to agree to disagree and an actual dialogue can be saved for a future time.
- Except that the reason why I'm not addressing your alleged point on Evolution allegedly hinging on Abiogenesis is that you don't actually need to go through explaining how life first began 4.75 billion years ago in order to study lineages of trilobites, fishes, or orchids, nor do you even need to go through explaining how life first began 4.75 billion years to study the mechanics of how "descent with modification" occurs. I would ask "how is the topic of the Primordial Soup directly germane to studying the lineage of the "Dusty Miller" Phalaenopsis orchids, but, it's my personal experience with you that you automatically dismiss literally I say, using false accusations, character assassinations and poisoning the well fallacies as justification.--Mr Fink (talk) 17:23, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- That being said, I agree that we are way off point so please feel free to "re-rail", Mr Fink. Your suggestion sounds good to me. Ckruschke (talk) 17:02, 24 February 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke
- Sure.--Mr Fink (talk) 17:23, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- I guess since you want to split hairs rather than respond to my point on the "creation of life" event, since Evolution clearly hinges on Abiogenisis and is germain to this Creation page, we'll have to agree to disagree and an actual dialogue can be saved for a future time.
- Before this thread was derailed, I was going to suggest changing the lede from "single event" to "events" or "series of events"--Mr Fink (talk) 02:36, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- Life from a "rock" and anti-science are both straw man arguments. Regardless, this talk page is not the place for this type of discussion. Has the issue of the "single creation event" been addressed, or what references are available and how should we proceed if a change is in order? Rmosler | ● 01:53, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
- So, if Creationism is not an anti-science movement even though its proponents are united in their hatred of Evolutionary Biology, and are well-documented in their unceasing efforts to sabotage science education in the US in order to teach religious propaganda in classrooms, can you explain how Creationism is not an anti-science movement, or do you just enjoy trying to attack me through character-assassination, false accusations and really crude attempts at poisoning the well fallacies?--Mr Fink (talk) 23:07, 21 February 2014 (UTC)