Niteshift36 (talk | contribs) →(arbitrary break): keep up the name calling, it is very enlightening |
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::::::::*And now you resort to actual name calling? LOL. Yeah, that's the way to go with this. So let's see, now you've called me a "school yard bully" and a "right-wingnut". Plese note that while I have been sarcastic at times, and condescending at others, I have yet to resort to name calling and playing the victim card. Those aren't from my playbook. You said you get what you give. So try addressing someone reasonably and you might get that. But couching a faux request for civility inside a response of insults doesnt fool anyone. [[User:Niteshift36|Niteshift36]] ([[User talk:Niteshift36|talk]]) 17:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC) |
::::::::*And now you resort to actual name calling? LOL. Yeah, that's the way to go with this. So let's see, now you've called me a "school yard bully" and a "right-wingnut". Plese note that while I have been sarcastic at times, and condescending at others, I have yet to resort to name calling and playing the victim card. Those aren't from my playbook. You said you get what you give. So try addressing someone reasonably and you might get that. But couching a faux request for civility inside a response of insults doesnt fool anyone. [[User:Niteshift36|Niteshift36]] ([[User talk:Niteshift36|talk]]) 17:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::Insulting people is not the way to win debates and violations of [[WP:CIVIL]] certainly don't help matters either. [[User:Arzel|Arzel]] ([[User talk:Arzel|talk]]) 16:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC) |
:::::::Insulting people is not the way to win debates and violations of [[WP:CIVIL]] certainly don't help matters either. [[User:Arzel|Arzel]] ([[User talk:Arzel|talk]]) 16:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC) |
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::This guy (PrBeacon) makes Blaxthos look look like [[David Gergen]]. [[User:Badmintonhist|Badmintonhist]] ([[User talk:Badmintonhist|talk]]) 17:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC) |
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== Revisiting "most trusted" == |
== Revisiting "most trusted" == |
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Beck's theology
This is small change but for what it's worth: a. While a host "own's" his show, the phrase "Fox News host" rather sounds as if he's hosting a newscast which he most certainly isn't. A "commentator" may or may not "own" his own show, but, regardless, Beck's role on the show is to commentate. That's why I said "in this context" it may be the better word. b. Beck probably still does hold the same position and may continue to hold it throughout his lifetime but we don't know that from the source. What we know from the source is that on this occasion he equated "social justice" with Communism and Nazism. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Split the difference... How about "broadcaster", as it's listed in the citation? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:41, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds fine to me, and inplies he is more than just the host of the program, if I understand the definition of Broadcaster correctly. Arzel (talk) 19:45, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- The change made by Arzel ("Fox News Channel host") is fine with me. I still prefer the past tense on "equates/equated". Badmintonhist (talk) 19:49, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'm okay with either tense after BH's explanation. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:25, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
"Outfoxed" documentary
Shouldn't Robert Greenwald's 2004 documentary Outfoxed be mentioned somewhere in the "Criticism and Controversies" section as well? It is only mentioned once in the article under the "Slogan" section, but is a key player in the criticism of the Fox News Corporation.
Perhaps a subsection titled "Slogan controversy" should be created under "Criticism and Controversies" to incorporate both the well-known slogan controversy and Outfoxed documentary, or perhaps it should be mentioned somewhere in the "Accusations of conservative bias" subsection.
This may be relevant to the separate Fox News Channel controversies article, as the Slogan controversy is not mentioned at all in that article, and the documentary is only mentioned for a single reference amid the many controversies it covers regarding Fox News.
71.198.169.120 (talk) 19:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.169.120 (talk) 19:15, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Statistical Citation needed
There appears to be no citation for the content of the second paragraph of the "Ratings and Reception" section of the article. The text of the paragraph states:
In 2004, FNC's ratings for its broadcast of the Republican National Convention beat those of all three broadcast networks. During President George W. Bush's address, Fox News notched 7.3 million viewers nationally, while NBC, CBS, and ABC scored ratings of 5.9, 5.0, and 5.1, respectively.
I have not been able to find an adequate reference for these statistics. I, therefore, request a "citation needed" note for this paragraph.
71.198.169.120 (talk) 19:24, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Source [1] Feel free to add it if you wish. I don't think it is a very contencious issue. Arzel (talk) 19:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Jim Wallis as an apolitical Christian spokesman
The criticism section on Glenn Beck and social justice mentions that Jim Wallis said that what Beck said attacks the Christian faith and Christians shouldn't listen to Glenn Beck. The reader is led to believe that the criticism by Wallis is based solely upon his faith and that politics has nothing to do with the criticism. The fact is, Wallis is a well-known liberal/progressive/left-winger. Even the liberal New York Times refers to him as "left" and "religious left." I contend that the reader needs to know the political background of the person making such a broad statement on behalf of all Christians. The use of "liberal" would be sourced to the NYT article.--Drrll (talk) 13:26, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps using a properly sourced description of Wallis as a social justice advocate would solve the problem. Badmintonhist (talk) 16:00, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Good idea.--Drrll (talk) 16:56, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Applying labels to critics ("well known liberal", etc.) is subjective, generally a violation of WP:NPOV, and usually discouraged in encyclopedic articles. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:33, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- The label that I suggested here, "social justice advocate" or something like that (and only provided that it can be legitimately referenced) relates directly to the point of contention between Beck and Wallis. It makes perfect sense that someone who is a staunch fan of "social justice" in a religious context would criticize someone who despises the concept, thus it helps the reader understand where the criticism is coming from. Badmintonhist (talk) 23:02, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- I can dig it with sourcing; the context you provided is informative and appropriate. My reply was more intended towards the original impetus, seemingly a political "left-winger" style labeling. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:01, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Media Matters as a reliable source
Media Matters is being used as a reliable source for derogatory content in this article. Just like the Media Research Center/Newsbusters, Media Matters is not a news organization, but instead fits under the category of a self-published source. From Wikipedia policy on reliable sources: "self-published media—whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, personal pages on social networking sites, Internet forum postings, or tweets—are largely not acceptable". The burden of establishing that Media Matters is an exception to this rule falls on the editors wanting to keep that content in.--Drrll (talk) 16:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- They can be used as a reliable source for their own opinion. They are not reliable as a source of factual information because of their bias. So long as there is not undue weight given to their opinion, and that that opinion is also expressed within other sources they can be used. It will not be possible to have them removed as a non-reliable source, it is best to impart that their view follows NPOV and Weight criteria. The best approach is to use the primary source from which MMfA uses instead of MMfA itself. I notice that at least one reference to MMfA is a blog within MMfA, which should be right out. Arzel (talk) 16:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- After looking at the contested section, I see it is Research by MMfA which is self-published. For this to be acceptable it would have to have been reported in a secondary source. The same type of research from MRC would not be acceptable within MSNBC or other liberal people and/or organizations. Arzel (talk) 16:54, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't understand your reasoning. Could you describe the exact language in WP:V to which you refer? SaltyBoatr get wet 17:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- When I look to the RSnoticeboard for guidance I believe that I see a general consensus[2][3] that MMfA is considered a RS for use in criticism of media organizations.SaltyBoatr get wet 17:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- WP:RS policy on self-published sources overrides noticeboards, and besides, the consensus in neither example is decisive (there are other examples of MMfA on the WP:RSN as well). Would you argue that the Media Research Center/Newsbusters.org are reliable sources?--Drrll (talk) 19:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- In this specific instance, the comments of the MMfA seem reliable source per WP:Policy for use as criticism of FNC. Have any problem with the asking of that question at the RS/noticeboard? SaltyBoatr get wet 19:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Not at all--go ahead and ask. Perhaps you could ask if it makes any difference whether the article is a BLP or not. Hopefully a more decisive answer will result this go around.--Drrll (talk) 19:55, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- In this specific instance, the comments of the MMfA seem reliable source per WP:Policy for use as criticism of FNC. Have any problem with the asking of that question at the RS/noticeboard? SaltyBoatr get wet 19:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- WP:RS policy on self-published sources overrides noticeboards, and besides, the consensus in neither example is decisive (there are other examples of MMfA on the WP:RSN as well). Would you argue that the Media Research Center/Newsbusters.org are reliable sources?--Drrll (talk) 19:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- After looking at the contested section, I see it is Research by MMfA which is self-published. For this to be acceptable it would have to have been reported in a secondary source. The same type of research from MRC would not be acceptable within MSNBC or other liberal people and/or organizations. Arzel (talk) 16:54, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ask all you want -- Media Matters is an accepted reliable source for their own criticism when it is directly related to their mission. You can pretend not to hear it all you want, but this has been covered at least two-dozen times at WP:RSN. Sounds like what you mean is "Hopefully I'll get an answer I want to hear this go around". //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- "Pretend not to hear"--what pretend not to hear Blaxthos the oracle? Correct me if I'm wrong, but there hasn't been much of a decisive determination in all those previous requests, especially considering that they usually attract mostly editors who have a stake in the outcome. No, that's not what I meant, but I have to wonder if you'd respect the decision if it was decisively against your position by a bunch of uninvolved editors. I guess that since you believe that MMfA is a reliable source that you also feel that the Media Research Center/Newsbusters is also a reliable source. Or is it different since they have that evil conservative slant instead of a liberal slant?--Drrll (talk) 00:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ask all you want -- Media Matters is an accepted reliable source for their own criticism when it is directly related to their mission. You can pretend not to hear it all you want, but this has been covered at least two-dozen times at WP:RSN. Sounds like what you mean is "Hopefully I'll get an answer I want to hear this go around". //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:05, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- I went ahead and posted the question for you. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:12, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't reviewed this specific case, but I want to respond specifically to the statement, "Policy on self-published sources overrides noticeboards." We need to be precise here--no one editor has complete and utter understanding of how to apply policy. The point of a noticeboard discussion is to have a number of editors get together, talk, and figure out how best to apply a policy. What that statement is really saying is more like, "My own interpretation of policy should override the consensus interpretation reached by editors at the noticeboard." Croctotheface (talk) 21:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Some of the criticism in question is mentioned in the Fox News Channel controversies article, which includes MMfA as a source. So perhaps the main article's subsection just needs updating. And the falsified report on a Tea Party rally (with stock footage) was covered by The Daily Show so I'm sure other (more acceptable) coverage wouldn't be hard to find. PrBeacon (talk) 00:22, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't reviewed this specific case, but I want to respond specifically to the statement, "Policy on self-published sources overrides noticeboards." We need to be precise here--no one editor has complete and utter understanding of how to apply policy. The point of a noticeboard discussion is to have a number of editors get together, talk, and figure out how best to apply a policy. What that statement is really saying is more like, "My own interpretation of policy should override the consensus interpretation reached by editors at the noticeboard." Croctotheface (talk) 21:36, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Clearly, MMfA is not a news organization, an academic source, or an established book publisher, so it qualifies as a self-published source. Noticeboards can't override WP policy. There is only a small window for MMfA to qualify--the "largely not acceptable" qualification.--Drrll (talk) 00:28, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yet did you apply the same standard to the Gerth book as a source over at the MMfA talkpage? PrBeacon (talk) 01:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- PrBeacon, don't bypass the huge leap of logic Drrll just made, specifically his assertion that anything that isn't a "news organization, academic source or established book publisher qualifies as a self-published source." Drrll, I am not sure if you're just ignorant of policy or intentionally trying to misstate policy, but in either case your statement is just flat out wrong. At this point it's clear that he doesn't actually read the policies he asserts. From the general overview (the intent) of WP:RS:
From the self-published sources section of the reliable source policy:Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
Drrll, please explain how your statements are supported by policy. Please point us to the actual language in policy you believe supports your position. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:35, 6 May 2010 (UTC)Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.
- Admittedly, my brief comment may have been unclear: the skewed logic was my point. PrBeacon (talk) 01:42, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- The Gerth book is hardly self-published--it is published by an established book publisher and authored by a Pulitzer Prize-winning NYT journalist--a far cry from MMfA.--Drrll (talk) 02:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Who said it was self-published? The author's bias is well-known, yet you apply a double-standard when the source supports what you want it to. And winning a pulitzer isn't as big a deal as you seem to think. PrBeacon (talk) 04:02, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- The book is clearly a reliable source, while it is hardly clear with MMfA. If the author's bias is well-known, you must then have reliable sources that say that. Name one.--Drrll (talk) 07:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Not so clearly to an objective eye -- he's been criticized as venomously anti-Clinton. I mentioned it to draw a parallel, not rehash the argument you've had with three others at the MMfA article. PrBeacon (talk) 08:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, so you and those on your side are able to have an objective eye, but not those on the other side of an issue. "He's been criticized as venomously anti-Clinton": apparently not by a reliable source; criticized as such by people on a place like the Democratic Underground forums?--Drrll (talk) 12:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- There are plenty of sources (Eric Alterman and others at The Nation newsmagazine, Gene Lyons' books, salon.com, even mediamatters.org itself), but what's reliable to you is only what you agree with, it seems. As I said this isn't the place to argue about Gerth, and I note how you're deflecting the point of faulty logic and double standards. PrBeacon (talk) 20:36, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, so you and those on your side are able to have an objective eye, but not those on the other side of an issue. "He's been criticized as venomously anti-Clinton": apparently not by a reliable source; criticized as such by people on a place like the Democratic Underground forums?--Drrll (talk) 12:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Not so clearly to an objective eye -- he's been criticized as venomously anti-Clinton. I mentioned it to draw a parallel, not rehash the argument you've had with three others at the MMfA article. PrBeacon (talk) 08:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- The book is clearly a reliable source, while it is hardly clear with MMfA. If the author's bias is well-known, you must then have reliable sources that say that. Name one.--Drrll (talk) 07:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Who said it was self-published? The author's bias is well-known, yet you apply a double-standard when the source supports what you want it to. And winning a pulitzer isn't as big a deal as you seem to think. PrBeacon (talk) 04:02, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- The Gerth book is hardly self-published--it is published by an established book publisher and authored by a Pulitzer Prize-winning NYT journalist--a far cry from MMfA.--Drrll (talk) 02:05, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Admittedly, my brief comment may have been unclear: the skewed logic was my point. PrBeacon (talk) 01:42, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- PrBeacon, don't bypass the huge leap of logic Drrll just made, specifically his assertion that anything that isn't a "news organization, academic source or established book publisher qualifies as a self-published source." Drrll, I am not sure if you're just ignorant of policy or intentionally trying to misstate policy, but in either case your statement is just flat out wrong. At this point it's clear that he doesn't actually read the policies he asserts. From the general overview (the intent) of WP:RS:
- Yet did you apply the same standard to the Gerth book as a source over at the MMfA talkpage? PrBeacon (talk) 01:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Blaxthos, under what category of non-self-publilshed sources listed in the reliable sources policy does MMfA fit?
- Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy: it is not a published source--it's a self-published source; who has established besides MMfA that it has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy?
- Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications: who says that MMfA is an established expert on the topic of the article, Fox News?; when has their work "been published by reliable third-party publications" (note I did not say when has their work been referenced by third-party publications, as is also the case for The Media Research Center)?
- I believe that my statements are supported by the policy I quoted at the beginning of this section, by the policy that you quoted, and by the policy that delineates exactly what is a non-self-published source.--Drrll (talk) 03:08, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Blaxthos, under what category of non-self-publilshed sources listed in the reliable sources policy does MMfA fit?
- When confronted with policy language, you try and make a stand on the definition of the word "published". That may be the most inelegant attempt at Wikilawyering I've ever seen... where in the hell do you get this stuff? Drrll, you're not really helping convince anyone you're here in good faith, nor that you have any experience or familiarity with policy and its application. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- The distinction between being "published" and not being published is not trivial--it distinguishes between a solidly reliable source and a questionable at best self-published source. I noticed that you conveniently avoided mention of the source of MMfA's "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", MMfA's status as an "established expert on the topic of the article" (Fox News), and whether MMfA has been "published by reliable third-party publications". Once again, you impugn someone's good faith.--Drrll (talk) 07:23, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Your assertions regarding the definition of "published" are not supported by policy or Wikipedia practice.
- MMFA is an established source as a media watchdog. Your attempts to say that they have to be an established expert on "Fox News" shows that you're both ignorant of policy and doing everything you can to wikilawyer.
- MMFA opinions have been widely published by other sources.
- You still haven't given any actual policy that supports your assertions. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 13:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- WP:V#Reliable Sources talks about "published" sources; shortly thereafter WP:V#Self-published sources (online and paper) talks about "self-published" sources in contrast
- Even if policy only requires that MMfA be an "established expert on the topic" of the news media, what reliable source backs up that claim? MMfA?
- "MMfA opinions have been widely published by other sources"--what WP policy allows a self-published source to be used if referenced by other sources? If it is backed up by policy, that would mean that the Media Research Center qualifies as a reliable source.
- As I already said before, the policy I quoted at the beginning of this section, the policy that you quoted, and the policy contrasting "published" and "self-published" sources all support my assertions.--Drrll (talk) 14:57, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- The distinction between being "published" and not being published is not trivial--it distinguishes between a solidly reliable source and a questionable at best self-published source. I noticed that you conveniently avoided mention of the source of MMfA's "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", MMfA's status as an "established expert on the topic of the article" (Fox News), and whether MMfA has been "published by reliable third-party publications". Once again, you impugn someone's good faith.--Drrll (talk) 07:23, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- When confronted with policy language, you try and make a stand on the definition of the word "published". That may be the most inelegant attempt at Wikilawyering I've ever seen... where in the hell do you get this stuff? Drrll, you're not really helping convince anyone you're here in good faith, nor that you have any experience or familiarity with policy and its application. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
(arbitrary break)
I notice that this was archived soon after I wrote it on WP:RSN, so I'll include it here as well. Given the fact that we are supposed to be putting forth an effort to make the articles in Wikipedia as neutral as possible as per WP:NPOV, and Media Matters on its own website calls itself a "progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media", I can't see any way that MMfA could possibly qualify as "Reliable", as per WP:RS. The organization itself is claiming a bias and an agenda that violates NPOV (edit: and WP:COI, upon further reflection), how can it be considered reliable? Rapier (talk) 16:29, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- OK, perhaps the compromise here is to use secondary sources that describe MMfA's criticism of Fox. There is a book published by Simon and Schuster, ISBN 9781416560104 and a article in the New York Times Nov 1, 2008 that solidly are "secondary publishers" that are describing MMfA criticism of Fox. SaltyBoatr get wet 16:49, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- That sounds reasonable. Allow MMfA criticisms in the Fox News Channel article if those criticisms are reported in reliable sources and attributed to those sources instead of to MMfA. I believe that a reference to that book would need an attribution like "according to Media Matters' Eric Boehlert" since at the time he wrote the book he worked for MMfA, as opposed to being a journalist or an independent academic.--Drrll (talk) 17:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- To keep some peace, that could work. Though, we must note that over at WP:RSN a well respected neutral editor recently expressed opinion[4] that MMfA could be used as a reliable source here. SaltyBoatr get wet 20:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- That sounds reasonable. Allow MMfA criticisms in the Fox News Channel article if those criticisms are reported in reliable sources and attributed to those sources instead of to MMfA. I believe that a reference to that book would need an attribution like "according to Media Matters' Eric Boehlert" since at the time he wrote the book he worked for MMfA, as opposed to being a journalist or an independent academic.--Drrll (talk) 17:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't want to distract from the compromise that looks like it might be coming through, but I want to respond to Rapier/Sean's original point. WP:RS does not said that our sources must themselves pass WP:NPOV. In fact, given some of the stuff that this article discusses, if they did, we'd have to have a serious conversation about whether we could ever cite Fox News itself. (To be clear, I think that we can and should be able to cite Fox News.) Croctotheface (talk) 05:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Croc, you can pick one name, either the real one or the nickname. Once you do that, go read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RS#Questionable_sources and you can read WikiPolicy on questionable sources. For the record, I don't think The National Center for Public Policy Research should be used at a reliable source either, for the same reason. Rapier (talk) 05:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- That part of the guideline makes no mention of sources being questionable because they have an editorial opinion. Your argument was, in essence, that sources had to follow NPOV. That is not true at all. It would arguably mean we could not cite Fox News. Croctotheface (talk) 05:44, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- I addressed it completely, you simply don't like it because you don't agree. "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, or promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions." This describes MMfA perfectly. Your bias is that somehow Fox News Channel equates with Media Matters for America, when the proper end of the political extreme would be, as I stated earlier, the National Center for Public Research - an organization the self-identifies as conservative. If you want to open up the argument (again) that somehow Fox isn't a reliable source, be my guest. I'm sure you'll enjoy as much success as every other left-leaning editor that has tried, but that has nothing to do with MMfA Rapier (talk) 06:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think any of those descriptors describe Media Matters. "Poor reputation for checking the facts"? I'd imagine you'll provide a long list of factual errors they've made to back that up. "No editorial oversight"? They have a clear editorial structure. "Extremist" and "promotional" do not apply. "Relying heavily on rumors"? What evidence do you have to support that notion? And finally, "rely heavily on personal opinions"? It's true that they have a point of view, but that doesn't mean that they only publish opinion--most of what they publish is not opinionated at all. The ratio of news to opinion is basically like a newspaper. You can find a comparable level of opinion in tons of reliable sources.
- The only assertion you've made that's you've actually supported with fact is that MM does not follow Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Sources don't have to do that. Regarding my Fox News comparison, I said clearly and unambiguously that I believe we can and should be able to cite Fox News. But they do have a point of view. If your issue is that they are not avowedly conservative (which should not matter if they are in fact conservative, just as it should not matter if MM suddenly deleted "progressive" from their self-description), then what about something like the National Review? Should we be prohibited from ever citing them? That seems like an awful idea to me; we should certainly be able to use the National Review if it makes sense, but they are avowedly conservative. Croctotheface (talk) 07:48, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- A consideration of "Media Matters" and other "partisan media-watchdog organizations" as RS was extensively discussed in a recent RS/N. Blaxthos has commenced another RS/N directly re-addressing this question. Other interested editors are encouraged to participate there as well. JakeInJoisey (talk) 11:32, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Jake, any reason you're re-posting this announcement after I already gave notice at the top of this section? The consensus from experienced, uninvolved editors has consistently been that they qualify as a reliable source (and that hasn't changed in this most recent posting). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 12:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Jake, any reason you're re-posting this announcement after I already gave notice at the top of this section?
- Yes. Given the direction of this discussion, it directly relates to the RS/N you opened, would enhance that discussion and, considering the current length of this discussion, might easily be (and may have been) overlooked.
- "The consensus from experienced, uninvolved editors has consistently been that they qualify as a reliable source (and that hasn't changed in this most recent posting)."
- As one can read in the most recently concluded RS/N on the subject, opinion is considerably mixed as to an unqualified RS status for Media Matters and I simply disagree with your characterization. However, I'll defer further comment here pending completion of the current RS/N. JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:52, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Jake, let's be really clear here -- the RSN discussion you continually reference is not about evaluating MMFA against WP:RS... the RFC is actually about treating MRC and MMFA as equal sources (speifically, the title is "Should Wikipedia treat MRC/Newsbusters sourcing consistently with Media Matters for America sourcing?"). FAIR, MRC, Newsbusters et al have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 19:26, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Jake, any reason you're re-posting this announcement after I already gave notice at the top of this section? The consensus from experienced, uninvolved editors has consistently been that they qualify as a reliable source (and that hasn't changed in this most recent posting). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 12:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- A consideration of "Media Matters" and other "partisan media-watchdog organizations" as RS was extensively discussed in a recent RS/N. Blaxthos has commenced another RS/N directly re-addressing this question. Other interested editors are encouraged to participate there as well. JakeInJoisey (talk) 11:32, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
The consensus from experienced, uninvolved editors has consistently been that MMfA qualify as a reliable source. SaltyBoatr get wet 16:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't recall editing this article or participating in any discussions here (if I did, it was a long time ago), so I think I qualify as uninvolved. I've got enough edits to qualify as experienced. MM is a partisan org that has a stated bias against what they consider conservative news outlets. They're not always right or wrong. Each of their statements needs to be assessed on an individual basis. The idea of considering a liberal organization (yes, they are liberal. Even the NYT calls them liberal), who is a self-appointed "watchdog" of conservative news, to be "reliable" without question is ridiculous. They have a bias and the neutrality of statements beeds looked at each time. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:59, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Niteshift36, unfortunately you are confusing WP:RS with WP:NPOV. Also, your use of ":*" (bullet points) on article talk pages makes the talk pages hard to read. Could you please conform with community standards and use indentation? Thanks. SaltyBoatr get wet 20:18, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, I'm not confusing them. I'm commenting on more than a single narrow question. Sorry if you want everything to be about a specific, narrow point. Since their product is often based on their opinion, the reliability and neutrality are connected. As for the bullets, I don't see where they make it any harder to read and I like them. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for indenting. Is there any evidence of a significant lack of reliability of MMfA? SaltyBoatr get wet 20:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've been indenting. I just use the bullet before it. As I've said, each statement needs evaluated. They are a reliable source for their own opinions, of course, but care needs to be taken about what is opinion and what is fact. If it is opinion, then we are in a NPOV/UNDUE discussion. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- MMfA is a reliable source for their opinion, they are not a reliable source for factual statements due to their admitted bias. Arzel (talk) 23:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for indenting. Is there any evidence of a significant lack of reliability of MMfA? SaltyBoatr get wet 20:58, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, I'm not confusing them. I'm commenting on more than a single narrow question. Sorry if you want everything to be about a specific, narrow point. Since their product is often based on their opinion, the reliability and neutrality are connected. As for the bullets, I don't see where they make it any harder to read and I like them. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Niteshift36, unfortunately you are confusing WP:RS with WP:NPOV. Also, your use of ":*" (bullet points) on article talk pages makes the talk pages hard to read. Could you please conform with community standards and use indentation? Thanks. SaltyBoatr get wet 20:18, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Some of you just keep restating the same thing. And you wonder why new editors don't want to get involved? There is no "admitted bias" that is your presumption. PrBeacon (talk) 23:19, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- They specifically state that they report what they feel is conservative bias or untruths. I can admit that MRC is biased to the right, the fact that you can't admit that MMfA is biased to the left tells me pretty much all I need to know. Arzel (talk) 23:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's not my business to judge MMfA's bias, nor is it yours. According to your (faulty) logic, a watchdog group challenging conservative bias etc is itself biased? Even if you think so, it's certainly not "admitted" by them. PrBeacon (talk) 23:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Please don't be dense. According to the (sound) logic of everybody here that is trying to be respectful of your opinion: Any organization that defines itself as progressive, and states that its sole purpose is "comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media" is biased. I am willing, as a conservative, to state that any conservative organization (Such as the Media Research Center) is too biased to be used as a reliable source on anything but itself. We aren't trying to push an agenda, we are simply calling a spade a spade and not allowing an organization that has a stated bias and agenda to be used as a reliable source against that which it states it is against because it cannot, by definition, be "reliable". Rapier (talk) 03:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Don't be patronizing. If another editor claims the MMfA has an "admitted bias" its not unreasonable for me to challenge that. Bias here has several degrees of meaning and implied meaning, the most basic of which are bent, tendency or inclination of temperament or outlook. While MMfA calls itself progressive, that does not automatically mean prejudice or unreasoned judgment. What respectable news organization would call itself biased? (in the second sense, because that's what is presumed). And to your point about them being unreliable even if they are biased, I believe there are several uninvolved editors over at RS/N who say otherwise. PrBeacon (talk) 06:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- They are a liberal organization (the NY Times characterization, not mine) that is set up solely to monitor conservative news outlets. In case you missed it, liberalism and conservatism are pretty much opposites. They characterize themselves as "progressive", which again is the opposite of conservative. They judge items that promote the "conservative agenda" as to whether or not they are credible (again, according to their own website). Jusdging credibility is opinion based. So you have a progressive org, offering their opinion about the credibility of the political opposites....but you don't see any possibility of bias? The term willful blindness might apply here. Niteshift36 (talk) 12:10, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- "What respectable news organization would call itself biased?" MMfA is not a news organization. They present (mostly) published information which they feel promotes a conservative bias. They present this information from a liberal/progressive point of view. This is the very definition of BIAS Arzel (talk) 16:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Berkley Integrated Audio Software? :-) As noted earlier, SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS DOESN'T MAKE YOUR POINT LEGITIMATE and is rather dickish. In any case, the "bias" discussion really isn't germane to a discussion about WP:RS (or WP:NPOV for that matter). Reliability and bias have absolutely nothing to do with each other -- please stop trying to use that argument to exclude sources with which you do not ideologically agree. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- He puts a single word in caps for emphasis....you put 9 words in caps (for no legitimate reason I can see) then call putting things in caps dickish behavior. The irony of that is all most too much. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Blax, you are mistaken. The very definition of the word "bias" is: "a term used to describe a tendency or preference towards a particular perspective, ideology, or result, when the tendency interferes with the ability to be impartial, unprejudiced, or objective. In other words, bias is generally seen as a 'one-sided' perspective. " This is why these sources are not "reliable", as much as the fact that you agree with them makes you want to include them. Rapier (talk) 19:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Berkley Integrated Audio Software? :-) As noted earlier, SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS DOESN'T MAKE YOUR POINT LEGITIMATE and is rather dickish. In any case, the "bias" discussion really isn't germane to a discussion about WP:RS (or WP:NPOV for that matter). Reliability and bias have absolutely nothing to do with each other -- please stop trying to use that argument to exclude sources with which you do not ideologically agree. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:34, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- "What respectable news organization would call itself biased?" MMfA is not a news organization. They present (mostly) published information which they feel promotes a conservative bias. They present this information from a liberal/progressive point of view. This is the very definition of BIAS Arzel (talk) 16:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- They are a liberal organization (the NY Times characterization, not mine) that is set up solely to monitor conservative news outlets. In case you missed it, liberalism and conservatism are pretty much opposites. They characterize themselves as "progressive", which again is the opposite of conservative. They judge items that promote the "conservative agenda" as to whether or not they are credible (again, according to their own website). Jusdging credibility is opinion based. So you have a progressive org, offering their opinion about the credibility of the political opposites....but you don't see any possibility of bias? The term willful blindness might apply here. Niteshift36 (talk) 12:10, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Don't be patronizing. If another editor claims the MMfA has an "admitted bias" its not unreasonable for me to challenge that. Bias here has several degrees of meaning and implied meaning, the most basic of which are bent, tendency or inclination of temperament or outlook. While MMfA calls itself progressive, that does not automatically mean prejudice or unreasoned judgment. What respectable news organization would call itself biased? (in the second sense, because that's what is presumed). And to your point about them being unreliable even if they are biased, I believe there are several uninvolved editors over at RS/N who say otherwise. PrBeacon (talk) 06:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Please don't be dense. According to the (sound) logic of everybody here that is trying to be respectful of your opinion: Any organization that defines itself as progressive, and states that its sole purpose is "comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media" is biased. I am willing, as a conservative, to state that any conservative organization (Such as the Media Research Center) is too biased to be used as a reliable source on anything but itself. We aren't trying to push an agenda, we are simply calling a spade a spade and not allowing an organization that has a stated bias and agenda to be used as a reliable source against that which it states it is against because it cannot, by definition, be "reliable". Rapier (talk) 03:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's not my business to judge MMfA's bias, nor is it yours. According to your (faulty) logic, a watchdog group challenging conservative bias etc is itself biased? Even if you think so, it's certainly not "admitted" by them. PrBeacon (talk) 23:54, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Restating for the sloppy readers: I never said they weren't biased. I'm objecting to Arzel's claim of "admitted bias." And Rapier that secondary meaning is your presumption of the term bias. A fine point, perhaps, but I think it's important not to just let that slide in this argument. Yet another editor (Niteshift) chooses to patronize rather than discuss in civil terms. Does anyone still wonder why these threads devolve so quickly? PrBeacon (talk) 19:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Not a fine point, no point at all, on either case. You have just reached "fringe" argument status in my opinion, and there is no reason to continue this argument. All any reasonable person needs to do is read the "About Us" section on the MMfA website that the descriptors that we've been quoting comes from and it is apparant that there is "admitted bias". The definition of "bias" offered is not mine, it is the definition that a consensus has agreed upon according to Wikipedia editors on the bias article. If you like, I can give you Webster's definition "an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment". That doesn't really help your argument either.Rapier (talk) 22:17, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- That's your opinion, you're entitled to it so why can't you respect that of others. There is no "admitted bias" on the MMfA site, that is your interpretation. There is no definition of bias on the wikipedia page. The webster's one you give doesn't support your interpretation either. As i said, fine point: notice the semi-colon. The secondary meaning does not always or automatically follow from the primary.PrBeacon (talk) 10:06, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- You start the response by calling people "sloppy readers", then (wrongly) complain about being "patronized"? Maybe nobody would have read it that way if you haven't been defending MM all along. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yep, i was returning the flavor. "In case you missed it, liberalism and conservatism are pretty much opposites." That is indeed patronizing and you resorted to it without any provocation on my part. If it seems to you like we are defending MM, perhaps because editors like you are on the attack. By the way, one could easily make the case that your repeated use of bullet points for no other reason than "i like them" is disrespectful to those of us who've asked you to stop. In fact they are reserved for polls & RfCs and can be removed as 'formatting errors'. PrBeacon (talk) 20:33, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Which flavor would that be? So you subscribe to the "two wrongs make a right" school of thought? BTW, make that case if you want. I won't lose any sleep over it. Again, if all you have is complaints about indenting, you've already lost the debate. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:41, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, so now you admit it you were patronizing. Should we believe anything else you say is wrong? So I give what I get. You want to return to a civil discussion, fine. But dismissing other issues as simply format complaints is not the way to go. PrBeacon (talk) 20:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Did you hurt yourself leaping to that conclusion?(that was patronizing, that was sarcasm) I didn't say I was being patronizing. You said I was and that you responded in kind. If you thought I was, then did it, you believe two wrongs make a right. Sheesh, try to keep up (that was patronizing). You can believe or disbelieve whatever you want. I honestly could give a rats furry butt. (that was not patronizing, just blunt) Odd that you do your little sarcasm routine, then ask about civility. I'll use your theory.....I'll give what I get. Start acting civil and you might just get that in return. Or keep playing the "I'll slip one more in, then try to look like I want to be civil" game. And yes, your whining about using bullet points (including in your edit summary) is simply a format complaint and a really weak one at that. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:45, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- More condescension. And yet, are you sure? Because you weren't really clear on the concept before. I don't even know why I thought you could discuss things politely. Your first response to my argument against "admitted bias" was to lecture and insult. Did you really expect that to go unchallenged? Do right-wingnuts get special training in highschool debate tactics? You all sound the same. Except when you're trying to be funny. PrBeacon (talk) 09:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- And now you resort to actual name calling? LOL. Yeah, that's the way to go with this. So let's see, now you've called me a "school yard bully" and a "right-wingnut". Plese note that while I have been sarcastic at times, and condescending at others, I have yet to resort to name calling and playing the victim card. Those aren't from my playbook. You said you get what you give. So try addressing someone reasonably and you might get that. But couching a faux request for civility inside a response of insults doesnt fool anyone. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:39, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- Insulting people is not the way to win debates and violations of WP:CIVIL certainly don't help matters either. Arzel (talk) 16:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- More condescension. And yet, are you sure? Because you weren't really clear on the concept before. I don't even know why I thought you could discuss things politely. Your first response to my argument against "admitted bias" was to lecture and insult. Did you really expect that to go unchallenged? Do right-wingnuts get special training in highschool debate tactics? You all sound the same. Except when you're trying to be funny. PrBeacon (talk) 09:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- Did you hurt yourself leaping to that conclusion?(that was patronizing, that was sarcasm) I didn't say I was being patronizing. You said I was and that you responded in kind. If you thought I was, then did it, you believe two wrongs make a right. Sheesh, try to keep up (that was patronizing). You can believe or disbelieve whatever you want. I honestly could give a rats furry butt. (that was not patronizing, just blunt) Odd that you do your little sarcasm routine, then ask about civility. I'll use your theory.....I'll give what I get. Start acting civil and you might just get that in return. Or keep playing the "I'll slip one more in, then try to look like I want to be civil" game. And yes, your whining about using bullet points (including in your edit summary) is simply a format complaint and a really weak one at that. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:45, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- This guy (PrBeacon) makes Blaxthos look look like David Gergen. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Revisiting "most trusted"
New poll released by 60 Minutes / Vanity Fair [5] lists FoxNews in 2nd place with 29% behind CNN with 32%. I think this should be included in the final paragraph of the Ratings and reception section, along with shortening the PPP info already there, so I'm putting the idea here for reworking that paragraph. PrBeacon (talk) 03:53, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Considering the poll currently on there has a margin of error of 2.8 and Fox led by 10, and the poll you are citing has CNN up by 3 with a margin of error of nearly 4% (3.89%, when 3% is generally accepted in statistics), I don't know if we should put this up without some qualifiers regarding its accuracy.Rapier (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- There is a bias question in the poll. The poll was at the 60 Minutes homepage, meaning it would be heavily voted on by 60 Minutes/CBS viewers, which typically aren't the type who are FNC viewers. That biases the poll. I think only polls done to the general population should be included. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:05, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Your assumption is incorrect. It's from "...a random sample of 1,026 adults nationwide". One could argue that the existing poll info within the article is biased to the right, endorsed as it by Politico. By the way, I agree with a previous comment that your posts should follow protocol & not use bullets. PrBeacon (talk) 23:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's not my assumption, it was from the link you provided. The VF source tells us "To answer the questions yourself, visit the 60 Minutes homepage at CBSNews.com.". Then it provides a link. Whatever their current poll is appears on that page. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:40, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Further, CBS interprets it as "Is America becoming a cable nation? With CNN getting 32 percent and Fox News 29 percent as the most trustworthy source of news, it would appear so. But if you factor in that around 50 percent of those that chose Fox were Republicans and 46 percent of those who chose CNN were Democrats (surprise) it might be an indication that America's propensity for fractious ideological divisions has spilled into how they choose to receive their daily ration of news".
- Then it's from more sloppy reading. The fine print discusses the polling sample. The additional option you mention has no effect on the published results. As already discussed, it's reasonable to qualify the results. PrBeacon (talk) 19:38, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Even CBS recognizes that the poll is divided among party lines.Niteshift36 (talk) 19:55, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Add me to the list of editors asking NiteShift36 to stop with the improper use of bullet points. (pardon the offtopic statement) //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep being disruptive Blax. I'll use them when I feel like it and find humor in the fact that when you can't refute something with substance, you resort to tactics like that. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:40, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Niteshift, it you want to use bullets, go right ahead. As for the study. One, the margin of error clearly falls between the two. One cannot say with any significance that either CNN or FNC is the most trusted name in news based off that poll. Two, FNC, to my knowledge, is not currently using that slogan. The only ones I have heard lately are "Fair and Balanced" and "We Report, You Decide". Thus the poll really doesn't have any context with the current state of FNC. It would be little more than trivia which doesn't actually say anything. Arzel (talk) 23:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Spiteful, much? The poll is from a reliable source, they include the margin of error, both are worthy of inclusion. Even if you are a statistician, it's not your job to interpret poll numbers here. PrBeacon (talk) 23:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- The poll is from a Reliable source, but where is the margin of error? I had to figure that out for myself. Rapier (talk) 03:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Spiteful, much? The poll is from a reliable source, they include the margin of error, both are worthy of inclusion. Even if you are a statistician, it's not your job to interpret poll numbers here. PrBeacon (talk) 23:43, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Your assumption is incorrect. It's from "...a random sample of 1,026 adults nationwide". One could argue that the existing poll info within the article is biased to the right, endorsed as it by Politico. By the way, I agree with a previous comment that your posts should follow protocol & not use bullets. PrBeacon (talk) 23:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yep, there is no published margin. I assumed it was there when you mentioned it earlier. So your figure could be wrong. Thanks for pointing that out. PrBeacon (talk) 07:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- If there is no published margin of error then the poll is worthless from a statistical point of view. Arzel (talk) 16:39, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Good thing we leave interpreting results to what's published in reliable sources, eh Arzel? If it's been published in a reliable source, NPOV policy requires inclusion (especially if it's a viewpoint contrasting some other source). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Though it's true that I've gotten involved in some pretty silly tempests in teapots in Wikipedia (I suppose, by definition, every dispute in Wikipedia is a tempest in a teapot) this one takes the kettle. The whole idea of having a ratings and reception section this long is unwise. Public polls of subjective feelings toward news networks will always shift and, from my perspective, have little encyclopedic value. Just another very unimportant thing for Wikipedia editors to argue about. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- And yet you & Arzel have shown no objection when the previous poll went your way. I disagree with both of you that this "trusted" issue is trivial or worthless, in your opinions, precisely because it was used as a slogan by FNC. That makes it relevant. PrBeacon (talk) 19:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- What does a current poll have to do with an old slogan that is no longer in use? That doesn't even make sense. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- And yet you & Arzel have shown no objection when the previous poll went your way. I disagree with both of you that this "trusted" issue is trivial or worthless, in your opinions, precisely because it was used as a slogan by FNC. That makes it relevant. PrBeacon (talk) 19:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Though it's true that I've gotten involved in some pretty silly tempests in teapots in Wikipedia (I suppose, by definition, every dispute in Wikipedia is a tempest in a teapot) this one takes the kettle. The whole idea of having a ratings and reception section this long is unwise. Public polls of subjective feelings toward news networks will always shift and, from my perspective, have little encyclopedic value. Just another very unimportant thing for Wikipedia editors to argue about. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Beacon. Do you just like seeing your words in print? Take a look at Talk Archive 25, "Ratings and reception" to see what I have thought about the this section of the article since I first noticed its length and detail. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I could ask you the same thing. You're just sore about getting whooped at raquetball. PrBeacon (talk
- Hmmm, how should this read: "In April of 2010, a year after Fox stopped using the slogan The Most Trusted Name in News, a joint 60 Minutes/Vanity Fair study listed CNN 3 points ahead of FOX News Channel in a poll taken by 1096 adults asking "Which of the following do you consider to be the MOST TRUSTWORHY SOURCE OF DAILY NEWS in the United States?", but gave no margin of error in their poll". Yeah, that is absolutely vital! Rapier (talk) 22:51, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I could ask you the same thing. You're just sore about getting whooped at raquetball. PrBeacon (talk
- Beacon. Do you just like seeing your words in print? Take a look at Talk Archive 25, "Ratings and reception" to see what I have thought about the this section of the article since I first noticed its length and detail. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Glenn Beck controversy
I find the section under Controversy about Glenn Beck's comments about social justice not really notable. It's just a comment he made that was criticized by two other Christians and received barely any media attention. To be frank, Beck has made much more controversial claims before that. But most importantly, I don't see what it has to do with Fox News as a channel. All of the other criticisms seem to focus on Fox in general, and the one section on Beck sticks out like a sore thumb. Joker1189 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:55, 7 May 2010 (UTC).