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At [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#"Germans"%2C "French people" etc - ethnicity vs nationality]] some problems of this article and other similar articles are being discussed. --[[User:Rsk6400|Rsk6400]] ([[User talk:Rsk6400|talk]]) 19:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC) |
At [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#"Germans"%2C "French people" etc - ethnicity vs nationality]] some problems of this article and other similar articles are being discussed. --[[User:Rsk6400|Rsk6400]] ([[User talk:Rsk6400|talk]]) 19:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC) |
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== Definition in the lede == |
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I just made a bold edit adding German citizens to the definition in the lede. Following the discussions here and at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#"Germans"%2C "French people" etc - ethnicity vs nationality]] I hope that this may be acceptable to all sides, although I'm sure that it is not perfect. --[[User:Rsk6400|Rsk6400]] ([[User talk:Rsk6400|talk]]) 14:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:28, 18 November 2020
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Austria, Switzerland
Considering that Austrians are basically Bavarians and the Swiss Germans Allemannic Germans this needs to be listed in this article if it wants to be correct about the German ethnic group. Political correctness and anti german sentiments aside, those people did not come from behind the moon but are ethnically German. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.17.140.107 (talk) 06:22, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
Germans in Ukraine
Population of Germans in Ukraine (2001) - 33,302, among them 4,056 consider German as their native language (source: State Statistics Committee of Ukraine). The total number of native German speakers in Ukraine (2001) - 4,206 (source: Database of State Statistics Committee of Ukraine). I cannot add this information due the page's restriction, so I leave this info here for somebody who wants to improve the article. --ZxcvU (talk) 16:35, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
Incoherent usage of the term 'Germans' and anecdotal statements with questionable sources of the last segment "Reunification till present"
Hello everyone,
As a German I'm truy irritated by the seemingly interchangeable usage of "Germans" and "Ethnical Germans". My fellow citizen with migrational background are as much Germans as I am. They have been raised here and take as much part in German culture as I do - which is not much to speak of, we eat Italian food, watch American movies, use french idioms. Jokes aside, this article insinuates something else. Under the law everyone with a German citizenship is German and luckily that seems to have arrived in a lot of minds already. Specifically the minds of those who don't advocate for racist euphemisms such as 'Ethnopluralism'.
The last part "Reunification till present" caught my eye. There are some statements with lacking and/or questionable sources.
1. "Germans become more patriotic"
I obviously can't speak for all Germans but this link:
is laughable. The author writes something along the lines of 'A genocide might very well happen again' and 'A war between muslims and europeans (?)'. Anyone with the slighest grasp of history will know the first statement is straight up making it sound like there has not been much Erinnerungskultur (Culture of remembering) while also downplaying the singularity of the Shoah. Which is wrong.The second statement is alarmistic aswell. Even if the author was better at analyzing - without having a representative study that shows it I doubt patriotism has increased. Reactionary, nationalist forces obviously have (AfD) but ressentiments of those people have always been there. Aside from that throughout liberal and conservatives, urban and rural parts of society in Germany still rules a certain modesty and reservation when it comes to patriotism. Atleast there is much indifference when it comes to nationality.
2. "Study shows x% pupils would choose Germany as their country of living and x% feel patriotism"
Since I'm on my phone I can't citate properly but here is the study that would make the whole patriotism statement less anecdotal. However the problem is: German Citizen have been asked. Not necessarily ethnical Germans. So I ask myself what does this have to do with ethnical Germans?
3."The newer generation sees WW2 as a distant memory"
I would be part of that. I'm 23 and from Hamburg. I know a lot of young people. Nobody of us sees WW2 as a memory. How would we? We weren't alive. But luckily school has taught us one fucking thing - excuse my language - we must not forget. Now I really might not represent all young Germans but with the way how important teaching about the NS-Time is in this country I would argue 1) No one logically can see WW2 as a distant memory who hasn't lived back then and 2) We do remember why fascism and especially antisemitism has to be opposed.
A study that underlines my previous statement related to German identity can be found here aswell as in the German Wiki:
According to that study a significantly large amount of Germans think being able to speak German fluently qualifies one to be German. Which makes sense. We've had much immmigration for over 50 years now and ancestry is rather irrelevant.
In Jan Böhmermanns words: we are proud of not being proud.
...thanks for coming to my TED Talk. You might wanna check up on the mixing of the terms 'Germans' as 'German Citizen' (who can be of vietnamese, turkish, polish etc. ancestry) and 'Germans' as 'Ethnical Germans' (apparently not only defined by culture but also by ancestry) aswell as that highly questionable link that is used as source.
- I fully agree with the bit about broadening the scope of the article, especially the lead and the introduction, to additionally (but obviously not exclusively) cover "people living in Germany" or at least "German citizens." But this is, as I see it, a larger problem of all articles referring to European ethnic groups (e.g. French people, Dutch people). --Tserton (talk) 05:05, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is no problem, never mind a "larger problem" because the article deals specifically with Germans as an ethnic group, just like every other article for every other ethnic group. In the case of "Germans" being used in a wider context of meaning people of different ethnic backgrounds who have German citizenship, see the Germans#Society section and more specifically the Demographics of Germany article.--LeftiePete (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is. This article is called "Germans", not "Germans (ethnic group)". The equation of Germans with the ethnic group may have been acceptable some 40 years ago, today it is no longer acceptable in Germany. In Germany today, the normal use in the media is that "a German" is a synonym of "a German citizen", unless it is clear from the context that they are talking about a member of the ethnic group. Oxford Dictionary of English has "a native or inhabitant of Germany, or a person of German descent". The corresponding article in the German WP, de:Deutsche, wisely starts with the sentence, "The ethnonym German is used in a variety of ways." Then follow the definitions by ethnicity and by citizenship. --Rsk6400 (talk) 20:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think it is justified to equate the English term Germans with the German Deutsche. Note that the formerly frequent term for ethnic Germans, Volksdeutsche, has almost completely fallen out of use, and that many European ethnic Germans have a hard time accepting that the 40+ million Americans who identify as ethnic Germans but don't speak German are Deutsche in any sense. The terms obviously don't match. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 20:58, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well, the definition of Deutsche by the German WP and the definition of German(s) by ODE match. Both define the term as a nationality and as an ethnicity. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Rsk6400: Why-on-earth would there need to be "(ethnic group)" as part of the title when the term "Germans" is self-explanatory? Huh? I have no idea why you think anything has changed in forty years when the consensus still asks the citizens of Germany to list their ethnicity and "German" is one of those ethnic groups. See Demographics_of_Germany#Ethnic_minorities_and_migrant_background_(Migrationshintergrund). Do you propose for Wikipedia to add "ethnic group" to the Zhuang people, Hui people, Manchu people, Uyghurs, etc?
- The German Wikipedia's "German" disambiguation states:
- "Deutsche (Begriffsklärung)
- Zur Navigation springenZur Suche springen
- Deutsche steht für:
- Personen mit deutscher Staatsangehörigkeit (Deutsche im Sinne des Grundgesetzes), siehe deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit
- Deutsche, Personen mit deutscher Herkunft im ethnischen, sprachlichen oder kulturellen Sinn"
- The only real differences between the English article and the German article is that the latter article has a section about the assimilation hypothesis about whether or not recent migrants can be assimilated into the German nation and be considered Germans compared to those who are by birth (descent). Do you wish for the lede to state that the term "German" can mean different things or are you wanting some sort of exclusive definitions "ethnic group" and "citizens"?--LeftiePete (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @LiliCharlie: The reason "Volksdeutsche" has fallen out of use is because that is a Nazi term. The term Deutsche historically referred to people of German descent and then after the German Empire was founded there were terms such as Reichsdeutsche ("Germans of the Reich), but Germans such as the Austrians who were not German citizens were still considered to be and thought of themselves as Germans. Of course the definition of words can change over time so for example the vast majority of Austrians even though they are ethnic Germans do not consider themselves to be Germans and that separate national identity took quite a few decades to become fully established. But, whether a recent migrant considers himself/herself to be German does not change the fact that there is a very clear difference between a German citizen and Germans as an ethnic group. There are many cases of ethnic groups living in countries and never assimilating and still identifying as their ethnic group e.g. many Jews and Gypsies have lived in many European countries for a very long time and still consider themselves to be Jews and Gypsies. Self-identification goes a long way when it comes to the existence and definition of an ethnic group.--LeftiePete (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well, the definition of Deutsche by the German WP and the definition of German(s) by ODE match. Both define the term as a nationality and as an ethnicity. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think it is justified to equate the English term Germans with the German Deutsche. Note that the formerly frequent term for ethnic Germans, Volksdeutsche, has almost completely fallen out of use, and that many European ethnic Germans have a hard time accepting that the 40+ million Americans who identify as ethnic Germans but don't speak German are Deutsche in any sense. The terms obviously don't match. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 20:58, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is. This article is called "Germans", not "Germans (ethnic group)". The equation of Germans with the ethnic group may have been acceptable some 40 years ago, today it is no longer acceptable in Germany. In Germany today, the normal use in the media is that "a German" is a synonym of "a German citizen", unless it is clear from the context that they are talking about a member of the ethnic group. Oxford Dictionary of English has "a native or inhabitant of Germany, or a person of German descent". The corresponding article in the German WP, de:Deutsche, wisely starts with the sentence, "The ethnonym German is used in a variety of ways." Then follow the definitions by ethnicity and by citizenship. --Rsk6400 (talk) 20:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is no problem, never mind a "larger problem" because the article deals specifically with Germans as an ethnic group, just like every other article for every other ethnic group. In the case of "Germans" being used in a wider context of meaning people of different ethnic backgrounds who have German citizenship, see the Germans#Society section and more specifically the Demographics of Germany article.--LeftiePete (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
- I don't disagree, but all that requires reliable sources. Do you know Georg Hansen Die Ethnisierung des deutschen Staatsbürgerrechts und seine Tauglichkeit in der EU who cites many, mostly historical, laws that define and/or refer to ethnic Germanhood? Unlike the US and many other parts of the English-speaking world, Germany has a legal tradition of not allowing self-identification to be the main or even the only criterion for "ethnic membership." Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 15:45, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Anyone interested in the debate about whether an 'ethnic group' is fixed or arbitary should read Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism. Even Max Weber recognised that ethnic groups were social constructs and who belonged to a specific 'community' was subjective. Nevertheless, people still do and will continue to believe in such arbitrary constructs and ideas. Even the most racist and die-hard Nazis could not define "German" in a racial sense.--LeftiePete (talk) 15:00, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @LeftiePete: I did not propose that "(ethnic group)" should be added to the title of "Germans". It is not true that the
consensus still asks the citizens of Germany to list their ethnicity and "German" is one of those ethnic groups
, neither does the census. The article you refered to is correct, but your understanding of it is not. I think the German disambiguation page is pretty irrelevant here, especially its navigational elements like "Zur Navigation springen" (Click here for the navigation bar). --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:05, 14 November 2020 (UTC) - This issue is overreacted. Of course it may refer primarily the ethnic group, but also as a nationality/citizens. Could not be otherwise, since just like that German ethnics and citizens may be summarized around the world.(KIENGIR (talk) 19:33, 14 November 2020 (UTC))
- @LeftiePete: I did not propose that "(ethnic group)" should be added to the title of "Germans". It is not true that the
- "German ethnics and citizens may be summarized around the world" is simply not true. In Chinese 德国人 Déguórén can only refer to citizens (国 means country), and 德意志裔人 Déyìzhìyìrén only to ethnics (裔 means descendent). There is no word 德人 or 德意志人 that covers them both, and Chinese isn't exactly a minor language. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 19:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Rsk6400: Can you provide some sources that prove that the consensus in Germany does not ask people to list their ethnicity? If my understanding of that graph is not correct, how did the consensus manage to work out the people of an ethnic German background and people of different ethnic backgrounds? Hmmm... Again, why-on-earth should "(ethnic group)" be added as part of the title when Wikipedia has hundreds of different articles about the ethnic groups of different countries?--LeftiePete (talk) 19:57, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @KIENGIR: Exactly! Perhaps there could be one or two sentences mentioning that "Germans" can mean different things in the lede of the article, but anything else is just absurd.--LeftiePete (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Folks, don't continue the discussion here, in the next section's Wikiproject discussion I provided a more detailed answer, the thread should go on there, so please relocate and update there your reactions.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC))
- @KIENGIR: Exactly! Perhaps there could be one or two sentences mentioning that "Germans" can mean different things in the lede of the article, but anything else is just absurd.--LeftiePete (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Rsk6400: Can you provide some sources that prove that the consensus in Germany does not ask people to list their ethnicity? If my understanding of that graph is not correct, how did the consensus manage to work out the people of an ethnic German background and people of different ethnic backgrounds? Hmmm... Again, why-on-earth should "(ethnic group)" be added as part of the title when Wikipedia has hundreds of different articles about the ethnic groups of different countries?--LeftiePete (talk) 19:57, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- "German ethnics and citizens may be summarized around the world" is simply not true. In Chinese 德国人 Déguórén can only refer to citizens (国 means country), and 德意志裔人 Déyìzhìyìrén only to ethnics (裔 means descendent). There is no word 德人 or 德意志人 that covers them both, and Chinese isn't exactly a minor language. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 19:49, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
Problems of this article discussed at WikiProject Ethnic Groups
At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#"Germans", "French people" etc - ethnicity vs nationality some problems of this article and other similar articles are being discussed. --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
Definition in the lede
I just made a bold edit adding German citizens to the definition in the lede. Following the discussions here and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#"Germans", "French people" etc - ethnicity vs nationality I hope that this may be acceptable to all sides, although I'm sure that it is not perfect. --Rsk6400 (talk) 14:28, 18 November 2020 (UTC)