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JASON Report
The JASON report, commissioned by the State Department and made public in February 2022, is the most comprehensive report that I've seen on this subject, yet it is barely mentioned. I therefore wrote a summary and put it in the "government investigations" section, but I'm not sure if that's where it belongs.2600:4040:44E8:FA00:3D31:589C:1027:DDCA (talk) 17:53, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
Official report
Is it finally time to change the tone of this article (such as info box stating cause is "Not determined") to more strongly support that HS was all yet another in the long history of mass psychogenic illness events, rather than possible sci-fi weaponry by mysterious foes? See ‘Havana syndrome’ not caused by energy weapon or foreign adversary, intelligence review finds for the latest. If not, what will it take? Rp2006 (talk) 18:05, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
- I agree, I think the first and most important step is to remove the list of vague symptoms from the infobox. This is not a diagnosible condition, so the symptoms, which would apply to anything from a hangover to a concussion should not be placed so prominently. It's fine to list them in the body, IMO. DolyaIskrina (talk) 21:31, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
- OK, I took a crack at improving article to reflect current official US opinion. More work is needed! Rp2006 (talk) 05:54, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- I just spent some time re-organizing/reordering the sections to perhaps better highlight the more important information in light of the new report. Rp2006 (talk) 06:44, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- OK, I took a crack at improving article to reflect current official US opinion. More work is needed! Rp2006 (talk) 05:54, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
Frankly, it’s pretty embarrassing they kept up the charade as long as they did. Thanks for working on the article. Paragon Deku (talk) 17:53, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- I agree. Since this article was created (and was named Sonic Attacks in Cuba), I attempted to strengthen the scientific skepticism POV herein -- with proper RS citations from psychologists and scientists having a contrary view stating that this appears not to be what was being claimed. But the majority of editors would have none of that, said I was pushing a fringe POV, and many of my edits were suppressed making me back-off. I was actually told skeptics should "stick to debunking UFOs and Bigfoot and not delve into medical matters." MEDRS was repeatedly cited as the rationale I should stop adding citations with the contrary POV, as if the "medical conclusions" were the final, undisputed word on HS, thus proving (sci-fi) weaponry was involved. I must admit, vindication feels good. (I wont hold my breath, however, waiting for an apology from some specific people I will not name. They are probably thinking Rubio is correct, because he also will not give up on HS being of enemy origin.) Rp2006 (talk) 04:56, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- Being a skeptic on wikipedia against claims from government organizations (particularly US government departments) can often be a losing battle, even if we have RS from professionals raising this point. Some may say this is simply a immune system reaction to relatively recent wildly debased covid conspiracies, but I think it's been the case for quite some time. Hopefully this can serve as a case study for the ways in which wikipedia can (unintentionally or otherwise) amplify US government perspectives at the expense of nuance from the public and related professionals. Paragon Deku (talk) 21:43, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
- It is kind of funny to look back over the article history/talk page discussion and see multiple editors, including one administrator, arguing that skepticism over physically infeasible microwave weapons from science fiction is WP:FRINGE. Maybe there's a lesson for Wikipedia to learn here about not blindly trusting ramblings of the US intelligence community about scientific matters, particularly when there's a political incentive for them to bend the truth.
- Not like this scenario is ever going to come up again or anything... Endwise (talk) 04:45, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
Maybe there's a lesson for Wikipedia to learn here about not blindly trusting ramblings of the US intelligence community
← LOL, you seen Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory lately? Bon courage (talk) 05:14, 5 March 2023 (UTC)- Haven't read the talk page discussion, but that's exactly why I linked that lab leak article lol Endwise (talk) 08:49, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Man… some people here have damn worms in their brains. Paragon Deku (talk) 02:03, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Haven't read the talk page discussion, but that's exactly why I linked that lab leak article lol Endwise (talk) 08:49, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- What do involved editors here think about adding something from "Havana Syndrome Is Fake. But Mainstream Media Couldn’t Get Enough of It for Years"? It takes the media to task for credulously reporting on HS as a real thing. This is the primary reason why this WP article has been so slanted toward accepting and documenting the nonsense since 2016 when the Trump administration made the claims w/o evidence. If this is a WP:RS, maybe add to section: Criticism of media coverage? Rp2006 (talk) 06:28, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support the idea of having a section devoted to the media's coverage of the affair. The Jacobin article would be a good place to start. Hopefully there will be more over time. Burrobert (talk) 14:15, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- I am also wondering if it would be appropriate to change the infobox, which is one for a medical condition, to something else. Part of the reason WP editors restrained valid skeptical opinions from this article was the claim that this fell under WP:MEDRS, which I for one never bought into. Having this infobox results in including things like diagnosis and a list of symptoms (everything under the sun), which at this point seems ludicrous. Rp2006 (talk) 06:01, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- But I do think it's important to keep the short existing list of "symptoms" on the infobox. Specifically, because the very first sentence of the lede on this article says:
"Havana syndrome is an alleged set of medical symptoms with unknown causes experienced mostly abroad by U.S. government officials and military personnel."
- So it would be good that the alleged symptoms info remains available and visible on the infobox, in my opinion, for quick and easy access by readers. Cheers! 98.155.8.5 (talk) 03:26, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, including the symptoms was always a violation of WP:MEDRS. The symptoms have always been WP:FRINGE, and the symptoms have always been vague. This is not a diagnosable condition, hence the word Syndrome. I say change the type of infobox, and take the symptoms out of the new infobox. DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:49, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- How do you square that with the fact that we are talking about Havana Syndrome as an "alleged set of medical symptoms" then? Cheers. 98.155.8.5 (talk) 21:33, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, including the symptoms was always a violation of WP:MEDRS. The symptoms have always been WP:FRINGE, and the symptoms have always been vague. This is not a diagnosable condition, hence the word Syndrome. I say change the type of infobox, and take the symptoms out of the new infobox. DolyaIskrina (talk) 20:49, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
- But I do think it's important to keep the short existing list of "symptoms" on the infobox. Specifically, because the very first sentence of the lede on this article says:
- I will remind everyone that the original page name was Sonic Attacks in Cuba. What's my point? Perhaps that just because the media started calling it Havana Syndrome (and this page was thus renamed to follow) does not make it a real medical syndrome needing a medicalinfo-box. Or am I wrong? I suggest using "Infobox alternative diagnosis" as is on the Morgellons page. Rp2006 (talk) 02:58, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
- Update: I have spent way too much time looking for a reasonable infobox replacement--I no longer think the Infobox alternative diagnosis is pertinent--but have come up empty! I even posted a query here but there are no replies yet. Any other ideas? Rp2006 (talk) 01:22, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Suggestions for a reorg
Reports, investigations and/or studies are discussed in too many sections of this article to be reasonably followed regarding what happened when. And the order of these I think is more important than things like where they were associated with (Cuba/China...) I just combined two of these subsections that were both in the Cuba section into one, but there are still too many separate areas (I count 3 at least). I suggest all such material be combined - chronologically - into just one section. I'd like to get consensus on this before spending the time to do it. Rp2006 (talk) 20:48, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- No response, so I will attempt a restructuring. Rp2006 (talk) 23:57, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
- OK... I took a stab at it. Moved all the reports, analysis, etc to a new section. Out of time for now, but the basics are complete. Still need to verify the material in each year is applicable as well as not redundant. I'm sure within each year it can be organized in some way as well. (Positive vs negative findings? By agency doing report? Also: one problem was that it wasn't obvious where to put something that was commissioned in one year but released to the press later... not sure the material is consistent yet regarding that issue.) Rp2006 (talk) 01:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
- Done. Probably! Rp2006 (talk) 06:09, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
- OK... I took a stab at it. Moved all the reports, analysis, etc to a new section. Out of time for now, but the basics are complete. Still need to verify the material in each year is applicable as well as not redundant. I'm sure within each year it can be organized in some way as well. (Positive vs negative findings? By agency doing report? Also: one problem was that it wasn't obvious where to put something that was commissioned in one year but released to the press later... not sure the material is consistent yet regarding that issue.) Rp2006 (talk) 01:11, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
is Havana Syndrome unproven?
civilians cases like Len Ber, M.D. have now been diagnosed by Dr. Hoffer who diagnosed the diplomats. Babies across the homeland and their mothers while they try to nurse are also confirmed cases with acquired brain and vestibular organ damage. its not unproven. Tinyurl.com/havanababy Medicineowl (talk) 11:27, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
- That is not an RS. Slatersteven (talk) 11:38, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
Short description
@Slatersteven "Anomalous health incidents" does not give any more information than the title, and I don't see any problem in my preferred version. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- But this is what they were. Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- And what I wrote is what it is, with the added benefit of disambiguation, a primary purpose for short descriptions. When an average reader searches and sees the short description "Anomalous health incidents", they're not going to know that it was a former name or anything about the syndrome other than the fact that it is related to health (duh). Being a former name is not a criterion for short descriptions, and I don't see why it should be. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- Did you read the article, not all the incidents were over seas (for a start). Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- And what I wrote is what it is, with the added benefit of disambiguation, a primary purpose for short descriptions. When an average reader searches and sees the short description "Anomalous health incidents", they're not going to know that it was a former name or anything about the syndrome other than the fact that it is related to health (duh). Being a former name is not a criterion for short descriptions, and I don't see why it should be. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- Your suggestion is problematic for the reason that families of officials have also claimed symptoms. Also, people in the United States, including at the White House, have claimed symptoms. Rp2006 (talk) 16:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- Ah. Well, wouldn't adding a "mostly" solve that? Aaron Liu (talk) 16:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC)