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Robert Galbraith name
I have reverted this edit as not cited to a high quality source, and WP:UNDUE. Please gain consensus. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:35, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- There are a few reliable sources on the Robert Galbraith name issue; HuffingtonPost, Them.Us, op-ed in Time, however it is something she denies. At least one subject matter expert (Florence Ashley) has said it is unlikely that Rowling picked the name intentionally, as Robert Galbraith Heath's links to conversion therapy weren't as well publicised at the time Rowling would have been picking the pen name.
- As problematic as some of the content she has published under that name is, even with higher quality sourcing I do not think this is due for inclusion.
- Quick note, I've included Ashley's commentary here to help with the discussion only, and I'm not suggesting we include it in the article as it is obviously self-published commentary about another person. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:09, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- That means the edit can go ahead with the above higher quality sources. It's a clarification of the pseudonym and the reader needs to be made aware i.e. with the correct context of the LGBT community's comments on the similarities and Rowling's spokesperson making a statement to clearly say it was not intentional The edit is about similarities; not whether it was intentional. NoMagicSpellstalk 22:55, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- I'm opposed to putting in this edit. That pen name is also similar to Kenneth Galbraith and when asked early on about the similarities she explained how the name came about, which is in the article. She explained that it's "a name she took from Robert F. Kennedy, a personal hero, and Ella Galbraith, a name she invented for herself in childhood" >> see the "Adult fiction" section. Victoria (tk) 23:07, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but Rowling's spokesperson made the statement about Robert Galbraith Heath NoMagicSpellstalk 23:20, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- And the Beatles claim that Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds had no connection to LSD, either. The subject is not always the most reliable testimony for veracity of a claim. Zaathras (talk) 00:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- I'm opposed to putting in this edit. That pen name is also similar to Kenneth Galbraith and when asked early on about the similarities she explained how the name came about, which is in the article. She explained that it's "a name she took from Robert F. Kennedy, a personal hero, and Ella Galbraith, a name she invented for herself in childhood" >> see the "Adult fiction" section. Victoria (tk) 23:07, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- That means the edit can go ahead with the above higher quality sources. It's a clarification of the pseudonym and the reader needs to be made aware i.e. with the correct context of the LGBT community's comments on the similarities and Rowling's spokesperson making a statement to clearly say it was not intentional The edit is about similarities; not whether it was intentional. NoMagicSpellstalk 22:55, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- Fully agree with this reversion. Undue and seems like it's there for WP:AXE reasons. — Czello 23:22, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- The information appears to be quite neutral. I think some editors are not giving a strong enough argument other than "I don't agree". Perhaps ownership issues, judging by the edit stats on this article? Why deny the reader clarification on the pseudonym? NoMagicSpellstalk 23:45, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
- I support inclusion. Zaathras (talk) 00:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- The information is too trivial to include in Wikipedia. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:58, 4 September 2022 (UTC).
- It's not trivia if Rowling's spokesperson makes a statement. Why would you block a clarification? NoMagicSpellstalk 01:09, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, and the sources supporting it are themselves strongly biased and poor quality. It's borderline conspiracy theory and Florence Ashley's comment - who is by no means sympathetic to Rowling's trans-related views - is the nail in the coffin. The whole argument makes no sense - why would the same author who declared Dumbledore is gay and whose controversial comments have solely to do with gender identity and not sexual orientation pick a name as a nod to a long dead psychiatrist who tried to "cure" homosexuality, and for books that have nothing to do with LGBT issues at all and that began to be written long before she ever said anything controversial about trans issues? Crossroads -talk- 02:54, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- It's not about the argument. There is no conspiracy. This edit is clarifying the names for the reader. Giving the context as to why this subject was brought up. Followed by the response from Rowling's spokesperson. It's a neutrally worded edit giving facts; not opinions. Higher quality sources will be used. Why are you blocking a clarification? NoMagicSpellstalk 01:15, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- None of the sources listed in this discussion rise a) to the level required for a Featured article, or b) to the level of WP:DUE. Sideswipe's post above did not pretend they were high quality sources; only higher than the original sourcing, but we don't write FAs around the Huffington Post or op-eds in Time magazine. The content in the article now about the name is sourced to scholarly literature, not tabloid rags. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:23, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
"... we don't write FAs around the Huffington Post"
HuffPost is a listed WP:RSP. HuffPost Politics/contributors is considered unreliable. Also, here's a Time source that's not opinion. So we're covered for reliable sources."... sourced to scholarly literature, not tabloid rags"
Really? So why is this rag in the References...twice? If you're going to mislead editors; frustrate or obfuscate facts, then you're bringing Wikipedia, and this article in particular, into disrepute. I suggest you refrain from this behaviour and not block a clarification with these tactics. NoMagicSpellstalk 02:40, 5 September 2022 (UTC)- NoMagicSpells, could you please invest some time in understanding what a featured article is? Nowhere in any post I have made in this section did I ever refer to the term reliable sources; you don't seem to understand the distinction. As to why "this rag" (as you call it) is in the sources, please spend some time understanding WP:DUE. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:55, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- If you two disgree about it being due, instead of arguing about whether it belongs in a featured article here, why not take it to WP:RSN? As NMS notes, HuffPo and Time are considered reliable and I personally see no reason to exclude them from this article, featured or no, as long as they meet the criteria for WP:RS-- 2600:6C51:447F:D8D9:AC97:1F7E:5860:FC2F (talk) 04:55, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
- The 11 editors agreeing the proposed content is WP:UNDUE would be that reason. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:04, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
- If you two disgree about it being due, instead of arguing about whether it belongs in a featured article here, why not take it to WP:RSN? As NMS notes, HuffPo and Time are considered reliable and I personally see no reason to exclude them from this article, featured or no, as long as they meet the criteria for WP:RS-- 2600:6C51:447F:D8D9:AC97:1F7E:5860:FC2F (talk) 04:55, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
- NoMagicSpells, could you please invest some time in understanding what a featured article is? Nowhere in any post I have made in this section did I ever refer to the term reliable sources; you don't seem to understand the distinction. As to why "this rag" (as you call it) is in the sources, please spend some time understanding WP:DUE. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:55, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- None of the sources listed in this discussion rise a) to the level required for a Featured article, or b) to the level of WP:DUE. Sideswipe's post above did not pretend they were high quality sources; only higher than the original sourcing, but we don't write FAs around the Huffington Post or op-eds in Time magazine. The content in the article now about the name is sourced to scholarly literature, not tabloid rags. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:23, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- It's not about the argument. There is no conspiracy. This edit is clarifying the names for the reader. Giving the context as to why this subject was brought up. Followed by the response from Rowling's spokesperson. It's a neutrally worded edit giving facts; not opinions. Higher quality sources will be used. Why are you blocking a clarification? NoMagicSpellstalk 01:15, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Not going to say where, but I noticed a recent, out of nowhere, uptick of "JK Rowling is anti-gay, blah, blah, blah" in a couple of chatty circles. Now I know where they got it from. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 11:35, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- The information is too trivial to include in Wikipedia. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:58, 4 September 2022 (UTC).
- I support inclusion. Zaathras (talk) 00:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
- The name is just a coincidence and not worth noting in the article per WP:UNDUE. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:29, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- WP:UNDUE - leave it out. Johnbod (talk) 15:38, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing any weighty sources taking this seriously enough to include. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:01, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- WP:UNDUE, though worth coming back to in a month or two if it becomes a significant part of her story and a lot more heavyweight sources pick it up. Right now it isn't, and they haven't. John (talk) 21:06, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
- Agree that this is WP:UNDUE, at least for now. If coverage of the issue continues, revisit. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 08:56, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
"It is the best-selling book series in history."
The article says "It is the best-selling book series in history." linking to List of best-selling books, presumably as a source. List of best-selling books though estimates that the bible (which is a series of books) has 800m sales, compared to J. K. Rowling at 500 million. Stuartyeates (talk) 19:10, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
- The bible might loosely be called a series (I like Part I the best), but it is not commonly described as such. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:23, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know why that edit stood for more than a week; maybe no one got around to checking it. First, it linked twice in the lead to the same article. Second, it introduced uncited text in the body of the article. As I recall, we looked for a source to back this during the FAR and didn't find anything acceptable (I could be misremembering). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:08, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
Morgan
This edit by WhatamIdoing creates a conundrum as there are multiple teachers (vague), and Pugh specifically mentions Morgan (see footnote f). At minimum, since Morgan is no longer named in the article, footnote f needs adjustment if we leave Morgan out of the body. With something as widely known and published as the Morgan connection, I am unsure if BLPNAME applies ... but heading out for the day, no time to further address just now ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:49, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
- I see the conundrum. Perhaps label her as "her primary school teacher"? Maybe "Her teacher at the Tutshill Church of England School" and then "her stern teacher there"?
- I'm looking at this through a Wikipedia:Don't be evil lens. I'd like the family and friends of this teacher to be able to read this article, which mentions the teacher putting Rowling in the dunce's row (but doesn't mention moving her back...) and feel like it wasn't a public pillorying.
- BTW, Tutshill#J. K. Rowling says that the character was partly inspired by two teachers (and names them both). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:34, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
- That article is poorly sourced (http://www.half-bloodprince.org/snape_nettleship.php); we're sourcing to Kirk and the scholarly Pugh, who explicitly names Morgan. Kirk and Smith go into long analyses as I recall. I am fairly certain (but others like AP and O-D know better) that the Morgan issue is so well established that it's not a BLP issue, but I won't have time to investigate for the rest of the week ... hoping that AP or O-D will weigh in before the weekend, when I may have more free time to follow up here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:48, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
- PS, from my memory of reading all of Kirk and Smith, Morgan was described as quite the battle axe, so we're not likely in BLP territory. If I get a free moment this week between tests at clinic, will re-read Kirk and Smith to check, but real life got real complicated suddenly. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:51, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
Update: I found time to read through the main sources used in the biography last night. We have used four sources that cover Morgan (and there are many other lower-quality sources we didn't use). We have two full-length bios (old, but the best available, Smith and Kirk); one scholarly source (recent, thorough, Pugh); and one extensive news report (The Scotsman). All coverage says the same thing, which is basically that Rowling has discussed Morgan relative to Hogwarts. From my re-read, I conclude the WP:BLPNAME is not in play here, and the introduction of vague text when the subject is well covered in reliable sources is less than desirable, and we're not publishing anything that isn't already widely reported in reliable sources. My suggestion is that we re-instate the Morgan text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:34, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced that it's really vague, and I agree that it can be sourced. My main concern is that this is unnecessary trivia – the sort of thing I'd expect to find in the Harry Potter Trivial Pursuit game. Does it actually matter what her name is? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:03, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
- Agree that it's too trivial for this BLP. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:43, 29 September 2022 (UTC).
I have adjusted the footnote, which left vague Morgan, who was cited to all four main bio sources (Pugh, Kirk, Smith and https://www.scotsman.com/arts-and-culture/books/jk-rowling-story-2478095 . SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:34, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Rowling's treatment of Native American topics and fans
Right. It wasn't covered in higher profile sources because she's higher profile than the minorities who took issue with her treatment. Do you realize how rare it is for Native American issues to be covered in the mainstream press and, even more rare, for them to be covered accurately? I'll see if more sources came out since then. Elizabeth Warren lauded her for the misrepresentation, as she was doing the same sort of thing, and wanted in on it. But actual Natives were protesting. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 18:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- Notified: [1] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:46, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'd support the edit if you could source the criticism to something better than a single Salon article. (I don't support the notification: AFAICT this article is not under 1RR and so CorbieVreccan's edits don't IMO rise to the level of edit warring.) Loki (talk) 19:19, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- I would be concerned, even if a stronger source is supplied, that we must factor in due weight. We've got a couple dozen editors here who spent months immersed in all the highest quality sources, and I don't recall having ever seen this come up, so while it might belong at the Politics of sub-article, I don't see it having a due weight fit here. Re the notification, I'm not an admin so the nuance is lost on me; the gist is that edit warring on any article is not good, and we should strive to keep the collaborative spirit that developed during the FAR on this page. I believe CorbieVreccan might agree, now that we've discussed a bit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:22, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- I agree.--Kmhkmh (talk) 19:39, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- I would be concerned, even if a stronger source is supplied, that we must factor in due weight. We've got a couple dozen editors here who spent months immersed in all the highest quality sources, and I don't recall having ever seen this come up, so while it might belong at the Politics of sub-article, I don't see it having a due weight fit here. Re the notification, I'm not an admin so the nuance is lost on me; the gist is that edit warring on any article is not good, and we should strive to keep the collaborative spirit that developed during the FAR on this page. I believe CorbieVreccan might agree, now that we've discussed a bit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:22, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- I've seen this issue pop up in the sources, but without anywhere near the frequency of either scholarly critique of her books, or the transgender issues. Two rather obvious reasons for this; she's vocal on twitter about transgender issues, and the material touching on Native Americans is not in an actual publication, but "bonus material", as it were, on Pottermore, which gets very little attention. I don't see how it meets the due weight threshold at this time. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:40, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
- Re. the move to a sub-article: doesn't this belong on Politics of Harry Potter rather than Politics of J. K. Rowling? It's about how Rowling treats Native Americans in her fiction, not on her social media (unlike the TG issues). Olivaw-Daneel (talk) 10:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Could be, but it doesn't belong where it has again been moved; it is not a matter of International politics. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:37, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- It does have a social media component, and an international one. Native fans raised the issue with her on twitter and other platforms where she was usually very interactive. She responded once and then went silent. Then came harassment and even death threats from her fans. Rowling stayed silent on these as well. Around that time there was also other material online about her treatment of other races in her writing, Cho Chang, Irish stereotypes, etc. But like the Native American material, as I recall coverage was mostly in small publications online in Scotland and the US, and in social media, all of it international. But again, when minority populations are involved, the mainstream press often won't bother. Hence, discussions like this one. This is an ongoing issue with covering bias and prejudice, as well as protests. Up until relatively recently, LGBT concerns and even in-person protests and marches were disappeared in the same way in mainstream media. Older editors remember. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 19:16, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
@LokiTheLiar:, @Kmhkmh:, it was also covered in The Guardian: JK Rowling under fire for writing about 'Native American wizards'- History of Magic in North America, being serialised on Rowling’s Pottermore website, attacked for using an ancient culture ‘as a convenient prop’, The Washington Post: J.K. Rowling borrowed a Navajo legend for her new story. Is that okay?, and (paywall) National Geographic: Native Americans to J.K. Rowling - We’re Not Magical -The author has come under fire for equating Navajo religious beliefs with the world of her fictional Harry Potter characters among other places. I can find more, as well. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 19:26, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
- I admit that this might be a bit more main reporting that I originally expected. However those basically just mirroring/superficially reporting on the twitter dispute with that some people have with Rowling. I still don't think this is really worth mentiong in this article (or due). There is imho a really unfortunate tendency in current media of turning any disagreement or differing point of into a social media event and a scandal of sorts. Wikipedia should stay away from those in doubt as long as possible. Of course if a certain threshold is passed it needs to be included in a biography, but i rather see that threshold set rather high. After all we're writing an encyclopedic biography of a person and not a yellow press biography.--Kmhkmh (talk) 19:58, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
- Nah, I think this is enough for a short mention in the article. If WaPo has covered an event, it's usually enough WP:WEIGHT to at least mention it. Loki (talk) 20:15, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
- Given that WaPo covered it, I would not object to one sentence in the Politics section, but a) it's not going to be as verbose as what was here originally, and b) I strongly suggest that we work together to craft one sentence (as we did to develop consensus on the FAR). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:33, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
- Reminding CV that we worked very hard during the FAR to keep the article to a reasonable size and accord due weight, and almost every political topic was tightly summarized; we should hold this one to same, and one well-crafted sentence ought to cover it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:45, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
- Nah, I think this is enough for a short mention in the article. If WaPo has covered an event, it's usually enough WP:WEIGHT to at least mention it. Loki (talk) 20:15, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
- "disappeared in the same way in mainstream media" I once encounter an Italian comic book story which satirized how the press works.: Significant political events and international news being mostly ignored, because they don't sell enough copies of a newspaper. A rock star dyes his hair with a new color, it becomes front-page news and the copies are sold out. I consider it a painfully accurate depiction of what passes for newsworthy items. Dimadick (talk) 12:55, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
I agree with Dimadick, a mention in the WAPO does not pass the weight test, but I do agree with SandyGeorgia, this topic may merit a well crafted summarization. Crescent77 (talk) 22:59, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
JK/J.K.
As the article uses British English, should it use 'JK' throughout it?Halbared (talk) 20:55, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
- Here's her website; seems she uses J. K. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:39, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
English
Name the characters and object in JK Rowling books that exist inspired by real life 2409:4063:4082:7151:19B8:9FA:624B:FA58 (talk) 10:34, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- During the FAR, it was decided to only (or mostly anyway) mention such items in footnotes (eg Sylvia Morgan/Snape). An entire article could be created about such instances.SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:38, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Additionally, this request has a whiff of WP:HOMEWORK about it... Chaheel Riens (talk) 17:28, 10 October 2022 (UTC)