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::Given the nature of the subject, most of the sources that talk about it will tend to have one ideological bent or another. It's nice to have the bbc there, but we can't count on neutral, disinterested coverage. It rests upon us therefore to find sources from both sides of the issue and try to hack out a fairly neutral article that is neither effusive in its praise nor damning in its criticism. We need to scrub the article of as many "judgement words" (some of which I've made note of above) as possible, and rely mainly on neutral, descriptive ones. Even sentences that are ''prima facie'' neutral can, when taken together, paint a non-neutral picture. As for the criticism section, it doesn't work as the article stands, because it comes across as an afterthought. The addition of a criticism section does not negate the pro-jidf slant in the rest of the article. If we can make the rest of the article neutral, then I'd be much happier having a neutral section simply describing how the jidf has been received and described by others. [[User:Throwaway85|Throwaway85]] ([[User talk:Throwaway85|talk]]) 00:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC) |
::Given the nature of the subject, most of the sources that talk about it will tend to have one ideological bent or another. It's nice to have the bbc there, but we can't count on neutral, disinterested coverage. It rests upon us therefore to find sources from both sides of the issue and try to hack out a fairly neutral article that is neither effusive in its praise nor damning in its criticism. We need to scrub the article of as many "judgement words" (some of which I've made note of above) as possible, and rely mainly on neutral, descriptive ones. Even sentences that are ''prima facie'' neutral can, when taken together, paint a non-neutral picture. As for the criticism section, it doesn't work as the article stands, because it comes across as an afterthought. The addition of a criticism section does not negate the pro-jidf slant in the rest of the article. If we can make the rest of the article neutral, then I'd be much happier having a neutral section simply describing how the jidf has been received and described by others. [[User:Throwaway85|Throwaway85]] ([[User talk:Throwaway85|talk]]) 00:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::I agree that it is non-neutral, and needs considerable work. It is a [[WP:QUOTEFARM|quote farm]] - and, as stated in that link, quotations should not be used when they {{xt|presents rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias, it can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject }}. As an example, the entire "Elsewhere on the Web" section is a quotation.<small><span style="border:1px solid;background:#00008B">[[User:Chzz|'''<span style="background:#00008B;color:white"> Chzz </span>''']][[User talk:Chzz|<span style="color:#00008B;background-color:yellow;"> ► </span>]]</span></small> 11:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC) |
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I have changed "racial hatred" in the lede to "antisemitism" as that seems more in line with this group's stance and activities. Kindzmarauli (talk) 08:13, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
This reads like an advertisement
Almost a hagiography. Cherchez la Femme (talk) 22:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed. There is almost no mention of their criticism, their open war against islam as a whole, how they were banned from operating on numerous sites, and ample negative reactions it has received to date. --386-DX (talk) 12:19, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think you'll find much argument from the genuine Wikipedians who hand around here. If you look at the history of the article and talk pages and various excursion to the drama boards and user talk pages, you'll see that every now and then "David Appletree" looks at the article, finds something that implies he might not be the Messiah and then gets his puppets to edit war things back to how he likes. It remains unclear whether all the puppets agreeing with each other are "Appletree" himself or whether they include some acolytes who like to gather at the feet of the master waiting to be told what their next holy mission will be.--Peter cohen (talk) 14:04, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think this sounds like an advertisement. Peter Cohen has had a long history of attacking the JIDF. 386DX is bringing up his own original research, none of which is documented by reliable sources. Removing the template until people without such clear hostility against the organization opine. --174.140.161.31 (talk) 08:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- You're clearly a sockpuppect of banned user:Einsteindonut aka David "Appletree". You are acting against the consensus of legitimate Wikipedia users and have a conflict of interest. Clear off. Or are you going to post to one of your pathetic action lists again and have your minions come and salve your hurt ego by edit warring again?--Peter cohen (talk) 09:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think this sounds like an advertisement. Peter Cohen has had a long history of attacking the JIDF. 386DX is bringing up his own original research, none of which is documented by reliable sources. Removing the template until people without such clear hostility against the organization opine. --174.140.161.31 (talk) 08:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- You're clearly edit warring and breaking AGF, BLP, and original research rules. Enough with your personal anti-Zionist/anti-JIDF agenda, already. For all we know, Cherchez, and 386DX are your puppets. I do not feel that this article reads like an advertisement. Therefore, there is no "consensus." --213.229.87.47 (talk) 09:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
They are not my puppets. If you want to raise an SPI against me then go ahead. But then it will emerge that these IP edits to undermine the consensus all are masterminded by David "Appletree" from his basement in Texas.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:49, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- After several years, no one other than "David Appletree" (pseud.) has surfaced as associated with the JIDF. They've mostly dropped out of the news. Does anybody care at this point? --John Nagle (talk) 19:24, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Apparently it still matters people who are trying to litter/vandalize this article with irrelevant templates. I do not feel that this reads like an advertisement. It simply explains what the organization is about and everything in it is from reliable sources. There's even a criticism section. What type of advertisements contain criticism of their product? This is just an attempt by the same anti-JIDF people to damage this article. If you feel it reads like an advertisement, at least specify what it is, exactly, you are talking about. There nothing to back up the false claims that this reads like an advertisement. It's an article about an organization and all the information in the article is taken from reliable sources. Nagle and Cohen's remarks are unhelpful. As it says at the top of this page, "This is not a forum for general discussion of Jewish Internet Defense Force." Why you two continue to insist on being so negative about this organization does not make much sense to me, especially as it shows you have an agenda with this article. If you don't like the work of the JIDF, that's fine, but Wikipedia should be about objectivity and not trying to put your own personal POV into the project. --Mreditguy (talk) 20:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Please refrain from making accusations of vandalism against other editors. I agree that the page does not read like an advertisement, but adding a cleanup template due to perceived issues is not vandalism. The page might be slightly pro-JIDF (perhaps too many quoted statements) though. Please do not edit war over the template. I suggest using an {{NPOV}} until this is resolved. --Yair rand (talk) 21:03, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Apparently it still matters people who are trying to litter/vandalize this article with irrelevant templates. I do not feel that this reads like an advertisement. It simply explains what the organization is about and everything in it is from reliable sources. There's even a criticism section. What type of advertisements contain criticism of their product? This is just an attempt by the same anti-JIDF people to damage this article. If you feel it reads like an advertisement, at least specify what it is, exactly, you are talking about. There nothing to back up the false claims that this reads like an advertisement. It's an article about an organization and all the information in the article is taken from reliable sources. Nagle and Cohen's remarks are unhelpful. As it says at the top of this page, "This is not a forum for general discussion of Jewish Internet Defense Force." Why you two continue to insist on being so negative about this organization does not make much sense to me, especially as it shows you have an agenda with this article. If you don't like the work of the JIDF, that's fine, but Wikipedia should be about objectivity and not trying to put your own personal POV into the project. --Mreditguy (talk) 20:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- As an outsider observer, new to Wikipedia, I agree that this page does not read like an advertisement. --Miamiville (talk) 21:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- No. You also made it obvious you are a sock puppet. Hinata talk 21:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- As an outsider observer, new to Wikipedia, I agree that this page does not read like an advertisement. --Miamiville (talk) 21:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Multiple issues to resolve
- First, there's this cumbersome statement: "the JIDF and Avi Dichter successfully reduced Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah's social media presence as they successfully led a campaign for its removal." Aside from the wording, the reference link is broken. The correct link is: http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=206
- The second reference there is a link to the jidf website itself. It is apparently meant to support the claimed size of the hizbollah group, but the jidf is not a reliabe source on this. At any rate, the information is reproduced in the jpost article, so that reference should be removed.
- ""R.I.P. ALA'A ABU DHAIM," founded in honor of the Mercaz Harav terrorist" - No. Just, No.
- Section headings: "Countering Islamic Militants on Facebook", etc: clearly POV and promotional. Need to change.
- "Countering Holocaust denial on Facebook" - referencing in this section is incredibly unwieldy. Needs to be cleaned up. Also, the section consists almost entirely of statements by the jidf. These need to be drastically scaled back, with the vast majority of the section being neutral description supported by reliable secondary sources.
- "Action Against "Israel is not a country! Delist it from Facebook as a country" Group on Facebook" This section is entirely POV. If it can't be rewritten, it should be removed. For example, saying that content found in the group was considered antisemitic by organizations that tend to consider any criticism of Israel to be antisemitic without offering a counterpoint gives the impression that there was a widespread belief that the group was antisemitic. That may or may not be true, but it's unsupported by the current sources.
- "Criticism" section should probably be removed, and criticisms integrated into the relevant sections themselves. Just as it is inappropriate to have a "Praise" section, it is also inappropriate to have a criticism section if that information can be included in a neutral and objective manner. Rather than have the sections be glowing praise of their actions and then a criticism section at the end, it is far preferable to have each of the sections be neutral and balanced. Also, with the exception of Haaretz, almost all of the sources are cut from the same ideological cloth as the jidf. It is important to find more neutral, less biased sources if we are to rescue this article.
That's what I have so far. Feel free to make any additions or comments you feel are necessary. Throwaway85 (talk) 22:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't agree with the last point, about the 'Criticism' section - how do you propose to 'integrate these criticisms into the relevant sections'? They're not criticisms of individual campaigns by the JIDF (which are what the sections are about), they're criticisms of the overall organisation. It's not inherently POV to have a 'Criticism' section; on articles like this one, it's a good approach. It's neither required nor feasible to introduce artificial 'balance' into each individual section (and I think this article is actually pretty well-balanced at the moment, in any case). As for 'almost all of the sources are cut from the same ideological cloth as the jidf' - would you care to elaborate further? What specific sources would you propose to add? Robofish (talk) 23:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Given the nature of the subject, most of the sources that talk about it will tend to have one ideological bent or another. It's nice to have the bbc there, but we can't count on neutral, disinterested coverage. It rests upon us therefore to find sources from both sides of the issue and try to hack out a fairly neutral article that is neither effusive in its praise nor damning in its criticism. We need to scrub the article of as many "judgement words" (some of which I've made note of above) as possible, and rely mainly on neutral, descriptive ones. Even sentences that are prima facie neutral can, when taken together, paint a non-neutral picture. As for the criticism section, it doesn't work as the article stands, because it comes across as an afterthought. The addition of a criticism section does not negate the pro-jidf slant in the rest of the article. If we can make the rest of the article neutral, then I'd be much happier having a neutral section simply describing how the jidf has been received and described by others. Throwaway85 (talk) 00:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that it is non-neutral, and needs considerable work. It is a quote farm - and, as stated in that link, quotations should not be used when they presents rhetorical language in place of more neutral, dispassionate tone preferred for encyclopedias, it can be a backdoor method of inserting a non-neutral treatment of a controversial subject . As an example, the entire "Elsewhere on the Web" section is a quotation. Chzz ► 11:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)