Several comments
This page needs work. It looks like a compliation from many maybe not-so-trustworthy sources. I would like to take quite a few of questionable things out:
- Pretty much any Chinese art - well not really, but so many Chinese arts are referred to by Shaolin. I very much doubt that the Chinese arts brought to Okinawa can be said to be "Shaolin" by any useful definition.
- The zen influence on budo in general is according to some writers clearly overestimated. It should be expressed with less emphasis, I think.
- How can karate be without any kind of weapons, if weapons kata is one of the competition types... Although I do not belive in the first statement I have a clue that most "weapons kata" might not be very authentic.
- Matsumura Motobu yields some hits in Google, but it does not at all unlikely that it all comes from one source. It certainly sounds more like a person's name to me. Unless some good support for it is found, I would like this one out.
- The translation of the style names are not necessary. (In karate it is almost always called styles, so Dan Inosantos definitions will be a tad bit difficult to use here.) Kobayashi-ryu, for instance - I guess Kobayashi is a teacher's name.
- Some facts can bo moved to Shotokan, Wado Ryu etc. Habj 17:29, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Addressing comments by habj: Karate itself is without weapons, there are associated arts, known as kobudo, that have the weapons and weapons kata. The rest of the comments look very good and should be acted on. Adressing the second set of comments the first is right on. The second concerning Jiyu kumite, not so much. What really should happen is the wording should be toned down a bit. Yes some styles go all out and it looks like a real fight but more generally it is a continous flow >controled< flow of sparing to give a better sense of true combat.
Specific comments about belt colors should be left out. There are so many variations that about all that can be said with certainty is that there are >usually< white belts and black belts. Other than that it is anyones guess.
- Please see section on Kyu/Dan grades. Bihal 22:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, karate on Okinawa was probably well intertwined with weapons training. Why should it have been two different systems? The Okinawan styles often incorporate weapons in their training. I suppose the weapons part fitted worse in the role that karate got to play in Japan. Many people say as you do, but this is a misconception. Habj 09:35, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- The problem with this statement is that what we know as 'karate' is a product of the 20th century. Prior to that, on Okinawa, there were a number of fighting arts know primarily by the names of the towns which practiced them. As far as the histories I have read go, the concept of a unified item that could be equated to Karate did not exist. Possibly the resolution is break the article into two sections. Pre 20th century martial arts on Okinawa, and the arts we now know as Karate.
- I'm not sure why historically accurate information keeps being removed from the article- a short reading of any of the volumes available from Patrick McCarthy, Nagamine Shoshin, Morio Higaonna and Mark Bishop, et al, will show that the most recent revisions were not 'opinions.' The largest problem that karate faces is the general ignorance that surrounds it. Why eschew accurate information in favor of the usual unsubstantiated rhetoric? This site provides us with an excellent opportunity to change part of this problem, for the good of the art.
Removed paragraphs
I removed these paragraphs:
Yakusoku Kumite starts at Green Belt (Yon-Kyu). Two opponents usually square off and fight until a clean point is scored, as indicated by one of two seated judges by coloured flags or seen by the standing referee. At this point sparring is stopped and the point is awarded. Points systems vary but in general a half-point (wazari) is awarded for a single punch or for a kick to the body. A full point (ippon) is given for an attack such as a head kick, any attack following the opponent being taken to the ground or a combination technique (renrakuwaza).
Jiyu Kumite can look more like a brawl or street fight. It is the more serious side of the martial arts, being done more for defense or close-combat "Real Time" training than for sport. Although every technique should be controlled, the fighters do push themselves to be their best. No points are awarded.
because they probably describe kumite in some specific style or organisation of karate. Most certainly, yokosuku kumite från green belt is something style-specific and as we don't know where it belongs it is better to remove it. 193.10.63.101 12:41, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Randori?
Is randori a common name for sparring in karate? I never heard it. It could be used in some styles, maybe? Habj 09:37, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I asked around, and found no support for free sparring in karate being called randori. Maybe it is in one or a couple of styles, but hardly more than that. I removed it. Habj 15:18, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I clarified some of the definitions for kata and removed some of the random sentences. I also added some information on other Okinawans who were teaching in Japan around Funakoshi's time. Randori is a judo term, for free type application of kuzushi.
RSimpson
Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!
Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art
Federation for Genseiryu-Butokukai
One link in the federations, leading to Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation (Nippon Genseiryu Karate-do Butokukai) is in fact the Official Japanese Genseiryu Butokukai Honbu Dojo, which is in Asaka city, Saitama prefecture. The Honbu Dojo of Genseiryu is in Ito (Shizuoka prefecture, Japan).
Peter Lee keeps deleting the Butokukai term (adding offensive notes in the summary where I am called "angry", "vandalist" and a "liar"). This organisation has to use, BY LAW!!, the additional term BUTOKUKAI, to distinguish them from (the original) Genseiryu! So please, stop removing this. Thank you! -- MarioR 10:01, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
- Since it only leads to an endless edit war with Peter Lee, I stop adding Butokukai to the mentioned link, "Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation (GKIF) (Official Honbu Dojo of Japan)". However keep in mind this link leads to a site about another style than Genseiryu, namely Genseiryu-Butokukai, derived from Genseiryu... Also would I like to point out that the WGKF and GKIF are two different, totally independant federations, GKIF for Genseiryu-Butokukai, WGKF for the original Genseiryu as was taught by the (late) developper sensei Seiken Shukumine! -- MarioR 12:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- One more comment on Peter Lee's changes (that I reverted a couple of times): Peter Lee changes the comment of the link 玄制流空手道 (Genseiryu Karatedo) every time into "Japan Karate-do and Martial Arts Association site". However this site has nothing to do with this association, it's a Genseiryu site, for Genseiryu ONLY! To be precise: the original or traditional Genseiryu... Peter Lee has absolutely nothing to do with this style nor with this site, for he's training Genseiryu according the 'modern way' of sensei Kunihiko Tosa, that is to say: Genseiryu-Butokukai... -- MarioR 22:36, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Genseiryu external links
I have unprotected this page and deleted the Genseiryu-related external links. External links are not really a necessary part of wikipedia articles as readers are capable of using google to find these webpages—therefore, rather than have an edit war over these links it is better not to have them at all. JeremyA (talk) 05:26, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Grading/Ranking Content
Like with the 'Grading' section for Judo, the Karate entry could do with one. I'll list the ranks here, from beginner to master, but I have not cross-referenced these ranks with other styles. As far as I know, these ranks apply to the short-stance style;
- White (optional)
- Red (also optional)
- Yellow
- Orange
- Green
- Blue
- Purple
- Brown (1st Brown -> 3rd Brown)
- Black
- 1st Dan Black -> 9th Dan Black
Written by: Encrypted Intel 15:36, 21 July 2005 (MarioR 13:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC))
- This list insinuates there's a 'standard' list for ranking with colors. However, there is no way you can talk about the kyu ('beginner grades') in terms of colors! There are many differences between countries and sometimes even between styles/schools! For example in most DUTCH karate schools the system is: white (9/8), yellow (7), orange (6), green (5), blue (4), brown (3-1), 1st dan up to 9th dan. Therefore it's always the safest to talk about kyu, never about color! Also, receiving the first black belt (after 3rd brown, or better: 1st kyu) you always have 1st dan. This is not fully clear in the list above! Extra info: 10th dan also exists, but is only given posthumously to honour great grandmasters (like a creator of a style). -- MarioR 21:34, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
- Rather than trying to write out belt colours (since it's always going to be different in every different style) I found no reference to the kyu/dan system that was introduced for Karate to be accepted into Japan. I don't know the details, but it had to be standardised like that before it would be accepted by an organisation. The kyu/dan system comes originally from the ranking system for Go players. The Kyu/Dan system was and is, therefore, well-used in many martial arts from Japan. Typically, a white belt is a 10th or 9th kyu. A black belt is always a 1st dan.
- The grade before black belt is always a 1st kyu. Kyu grades would be considered amatuer, and Dan grades professional, if you want a broad metaphor. Bihal 00:11, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
- I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I wrote that before registering, therefore didn't sign my name and put it on top instead of underneath, leading you to think I wrote it all. I thought I had gone back and fixed that. Obviously it was misleading.
- You are right. You said what I said again. Feel free to make comments again.
- PS: That bit about 10th Dan varies from style to style and martial art to martial art. Bihal 08:38, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
- Apology accepted! I already thought this was not deliberately... And I am sorry I wrote "written by Bihal" under the list, I thought that was you too, because you changed the title of this part (didn't you?). I have also reorganized the messages in the correct chronological order. Always write replies underneath the previous message/reply. Thanks! About the 10th dan, yeah, it sure differs from martial art to martial art. And there are so many different styles in karate, so surely there will be some differences too. Regards, -- MarioR 13:34, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
External links
This amount of external links is ridicolous. Does the en:WP have any guidelines for this? Londenp 21:47, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Biased/Without basis statements
"Many modern (Western) practicioners elect to leave ranks or the formailty of a gi out of their training practices, citing the tendency of students to focus too much on rank, instead of the art itself."
Personally, I would like some kind of reference to support this, since it is contrary to experience.`
"The name can be interpreted literally, or as a philosophical reference to the concept of the Void (Tao)."
I haven't really heard of Tao being referred to as the Void. In fact, I'm of the opinion that is completely wrong. Void might be better associated with explaining Zen. Tao is often translated as the Path or the Way. I think Tao as a word stands on its own, especially since it has its own page that is referenced to.
"Many "freestyle" schools in the West (particularly the USA) sell a highly compromised interpretation of the art, and should not be regarded as emblematic of karate. The freestyle approach is oriented heavily towards sport competition, which includes point fighting and demonstration of forms (aka, kata) for entertainment value. Martial practicality is eschewed in favor of gymnastic and musical fashion. As a result of this competitive emphasis sparring is the most prominently featured aspect of many schools.With the removal of practical techniques and the prominence of high and vulnerable kicks, American freestyle “karate” has essentially been rendered into a bastardization of karate and sport style tae kwon do. The ineffectual hand techniques and high, rapid kicking constitute a limited skill base which is potentially finite and very predictable. When the "forms" practiced are compared to the self defense techniques taught in these schools it becomes obvious that the two have little or no relation to each other."
I believe this particular paragraph is highly biased. At least, the use of the term "freestyle" paints a very generalised image of the term. There is a mix of different sub set references in here (freestyle, XMA, Sport karate schools). I think this paragraph needs a re-write. Bihal