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Krishna as the Supreme God in Vaishnavism
I just would like user Redtigerxyz to kindly explain to me, why he takes this version of definition of Krishna within Vaishnavism as "no-neutral".
Within most Vaishnava traditions Vishnu is considered the Supreme God and the source of all avatars, while Krishna is worshiped as a full avatar of Vishnu and regarded as non-different from Him. In some Vaishnava traditions, such as Gaudiya Vaishnavism,[1] the Vallabha Sampradaya and the Nimbarka Sampradaya, Krishna is worshipped as svayam bhagavan, the source of all avatars including Vishnu.
Please kindly enlighten me, in which Vaishnava tradition Krishna is NOT regarded as God (with capital "G") and is viewed as an inferior deity and different from Vishnu? Take Sri Vaisnavism, for example, Krishna is not just any avatar, He is a complete avatar of Vishnu, non-different from Vishnu Himself. We are talking about a monotheistic tradition here, you know.Gaura79 (talk) 19:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I have to assure you that there are some on our list of editors who will disagree with you. And it is easy to expain unlike the concept of non-difference. I personally feel that the above should be worded to avoid the POV conflict.
Within all Vaishnava traditions Vishnu is believed to be the Supreme God and the source of all avatars, while Krishna is often worshiped as a full avatar of Vishnu or regarded as non-different from Him. In some Vaishnava traditions, such as Gaudiya Vaishnavism, the Vallabha Sampradaya and the Nimbarka Sampradaya, Krishna is worshipped as svayam bhagavan, believed to be the source of all avatars including Vishnu.
I would like to hear the opinions of other Vaishnavas on the forum if this is acceptable.
Wikidās ॐ 19:11, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Here's the opinion of Sri Vaishnavas:
We accept it though, for Lord Krishna is none else then Lord Narayana Himself, yet, He is only one avathara among many. That has been very clearly described in Srimad Bhagavatham. The difference is, in other avatharas, Lord chose only a few qualities for His activities, whereas in Krishna avathara, He appeared with many of His divine qualities. And also, the qualities of all avatharas are seen there. That is why, Krishna avatharas is considered to be the “Paripurna Avathara”.
See more here:User:Zeuspitar#Prominent Sri Sampradayam Swami says about Vishnu and Krishna-PLEASE READ! Gaura79 (talk) 19:25, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
My take:
Within Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism, Krishna and Vishnu are believed to be the Supreme God; while Vishnu is worshipped as the original Lord, the source of all avatars, Krishna is regarded as a full avatar of Vishnu, but doesn't play a prominent role in the worship. Some Vaishnava traditions, such as Gaudiya Vaishnavism, the Vallabha Sampradaya and the Nimbarka Sampradaya, hold a different view, considering Krishna to be svayam bhagavan, the original Supreme God and the source of all avatars including Vishnu.
Gaura79 (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The following statement is not correct:
Within all Vaishnava traditions Vishnu is believed to be ...... the source of all avatars,
Gaura79 (talk) 19:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I like the first bit. Within Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism, - I know that there are differences, but there is much more in common then different, and that is especially true as far as worship is concerned.
Within Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism, Krishna and Vishnu are believed to be the Supreme God; while Vishnu is believed to be original Lord, the source of all avatars, Krishna is regarded as a full avatar of Vishnu, but doesn't play a prominent role in the worship of some traditions. Some Vaishnava traditions, such as Gaudiya Vaishnavism, the Vallabha Sampradaya and the Nimbarka Sampradaya, hold a different view, considering Krishna to be svayam bhagavan, the original Supreme God the source of Narayana.
What we see is that some do not know their own traditions and other do not respect other traditions. Actually avataras always come from Vishnu. However Vishnu himself is an avatara of Narayana, who according to 3 above traditions (3 out of 5) has a source of Svayam bhagavan Krishna.
--Wikidās ॐ 19:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is just an introduction to the whole article. We should keep the things as simple as possible, because 90 % of the people who are going to read it probably never even heard of Vaishnavism, but certainly do have an idea what Hinduism is. And it's important to make people understand, that for Vaishnavas, who are the majority of all Hindus, Krishna is not on the same level as Indra, Brahma, etc. The theological subtleties of every tradition can be disscused later in the article.Gaura79 (talk) 20:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe a separate section dedicated to an Avatara theology of Krishna could just do it?
- This is just an introduction to the whole article. We should keep the things as simple as possible, because 90 % of the people who are going to read it probably never even heard of Vaishnavism, but certainly do have an idea what Hinduism is. And it's important to make people understand, that for Vaishnavas, who are the majority of all Hindus, Krishna is not on the same level as Indra, Brahma, etc. The theological subtleties of every tradition can be disscused later in the article.Gaura79 (talk) 20:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I actually do not mind the following then:
Within Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism, Krishna and Vishnu are believed to be the Supreme God. Some Vaishnava traditions, such as Gaudiya Vaishnavism, the Vallabha Sampradaya and the Nimbarka Sampradaya, have a specific preference to Krishna, svayam bhagavan.
And than a separate section can deal with the rest of the theology of the avataras and Krishnas place in it according to different schools.
Wikidās ॐ 20:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- The one problem with that phrasing is that it is saying two individuals are the singular Supreme God, which is likely to confuse people. We're supposed to structure all of our content so that those who don't know the subject can readily understand it. Maybe something like, "The exact relationship between Krishna and Vishnu, particularly regarding which is "primary" to the other, is one of the more frequently discussed issues in the Vaishnava branch of Hinduism," would be enough for the lead, with the rest of the material following in the appropriate section. John Carter (talk) 20:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- I actually like the phrase The exact relationship between Krishna and Vishnu, particularly regarding which is "primary" to the other, is one of the more frequently discussed issues in the Vaishnava branch of Hinduism, however its only in the recent years that such lack the traditional (territorial) separation that has prompted this discussion. Gaudiya are expanding rapidly in about 4 of 5 different groups and actually hardly debate, because, according to them there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that Krishna is an avatara of Vishnu and then say BUT he is original. See for example: http://www.romapadaswami.com/?q=node/2554 - we hardly debate this point - besides as of here and that is mainly with our friend User:Zeuspitar. We normally debate with those who say that Krishna is covered by maya. Wikidās ॐ
- The "The exact relationship between Krishna and Vishnu, particularly regarding which is "primary" to the other, is one of the more frequently discussed issues in the Vaishnava branch of Hinduism," phrase is one I like as well. I also support a separate section on views of Krishna and I think this might actually make a good start to the paragraph if we have one. --Shruti14 t c s 22:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Wikidas mentioned; that "Vishnu is an avatara of Narayan"....just like Shruti said...Vishnu/Narayana are the SAME name of God, this gives new meaning to what wikidas said "What we see is that some do not know their own traditions and other do not respect other traditions".. He also said that "3 out of 5 traditions" believe in Krishna. Again, I have stated many times...it is NOT a numbers game. First was the Sri Sampradayam, then Madhvacharya broke off, then all the other broke off through the centuries. The later groups believe in Krishna, because they believe in the later books;itihasas, puranas, inner group books like the caitanya caram. By the older groups, because they follow the older scriptures...say that Vishnu/Narayana is first. Older Scriptures/Vishnu. New books/Krishna. Rig Veda and Main Upanishads/Vishnu-Narayana. New Upanishads, mis-quoted verses from Bhagavata Purana and inner group books/Krishna. Rig Veda-Shruti-Vishnu. Bhagavata purana verse-Krishna. Older scripture/Vishnu. Or, newer books/Krishna. Shruti14 and others, please remember this when others talk about "3 out of 5" thing again please.Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 07:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- As for "our friend zeuspitar", if it wasnt for me, ALOT of the Hindu related pages would be ISKCON dominated; Shruti14 and many others also have said the same thing;that there is a strong ISKCON slant on the Hindu pages. The fact remains, the older Vaishnava sampradayams uphold to the Shruti or the older scriptures that say...Vishnu is the first. While ISKCON/Gaudiyas follow the newer books. Plain and simple. Wikidas and other ISKCON-ites have been and are STILL trying to write every thing that has to do with Vaishnavism and Hinduism with their Group slant. I am sorry if I come off combative, or in the words of wikidas..."disruptive". But, in the face of this BIAS, I have to be like Parasurama. And, uphold REAL Vedic-Hindu truth against latter-day "group" beliefs, especially those that are not accepted by the greater Hindu community.Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 07:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Do we have to start with a conflict of ideas in the first paragraph?
I guess the result can be yes, that is the first thing people have to know about Krishna. And then someone may suggest, keep it somewhere in the middle, start with most common and clear concepts first?
Why not then this
Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism is monotheistic in the understanding of Krishna.
And then the rest will follow in a separate section avatara avatari purna sampurnam para-narayana narayana you can write a few wikis on that. Wikidās ॐ 20:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- proposed lead
Krishna (कृष्ण in Devanagari, kṛṣṇa in IAST, IPA: [ˈkr̩ʂɳə] in classical Sanskrit) is a deity worshiped across many traditions of Hinduism.
Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism is monotheistic in its understanding of Krishna.[1][1][2][3][4][5][6] A distinguishing feature of the Vaisnava teachings is that God, as Krishna or Vishnu,[7][8] is a real being and His creation is also real.[8][9]
Krishna is often described as having the appearance of a dark-skinned man during his earthly incarnation, often depicted as a young cowherd boy playing a flute (as in the Bhagavata Purana) or a youthful prince giving philosophical direction and guidance to others (as in the Bhagavad Gita).[8]There are a number of perspectives on Krishna within a number of traditions in India.[10]
Krishna and the stories associated with him appear across a broad spectrum of Hindu philosophical and theological traditions.[11][9] Though they sometimes differ in details reflecting the concerns of a particular tradition, some core features are shared by all.[10] These include a divine incarnation, a pastoral childhood and youth, and life as a heroic warrior and teacher.[7]
Can someone disagree with that? --Wikidās ॐ 20:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- OK, I'll bite, and disagree a bit. I believe that any intro should be simple, short, and useful to people who don't know very much about the subject. Most people who use this will not know what Vaishnavas are, let alone know or care about the niceties of the previous arguments. I'm not suggesting that these arguments are not relevant to the article, just that they do not belong in the intro.
- Hence, I'll suggest either leaving out the entire paragraph - Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism is monotheistic in its understanding of Krishna. A distinguishing feature of the Vaisnava teachings is that God, as Krishna or Vishnu, is a real being and His creation is also real. - or moving it later into the article, as appropriate.
- (p.s., is it not the case that honorific title case in pronouns e.g. '... and His creation...' is against Wiki policy? It might be ok for for the word 'God', since in this case it also implies the 'one' god; but not in pronouns).
- Imc (talk) 21:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- In theory, your suggestion is a good idea. However, I agree with the above - keep it simple and informative. Perhaps the theological differences should be kept in a separate section in the main article. Many reading the article will have never heard of Krishna and want to know who Krishna is and won't know (or care) about theological differences about viewing Him until they know that much. For this reason I think we should move the information about the differences in viewing Him to a separate section and keep the mention of it simple in the lead paragraph(s). As for Wikipedia's policies on honorifics, see WP:HONOR, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic)#Titles_and_honorifics, and Wikipedia:MOS#Religions.2C_deities.2C_philosophies.2C_doctrines_and_their_adherents. --Shruti14 t c s 22:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Its just a quote from the MOS. a light reading
- The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, summarize the most important points, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describe its notable controversies, if there are any. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources. The lead should not "tease" the reader by hinting at but not explaining important facts that will appear later in the article. It should contain up to four paragraphs, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear, accessible style so as to invite a reading of the full article.
- I know I should have just given you the link. But I still think its better to read it. Wikidās ॐ 22:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- The introductory part of the article came out pretty good, but I think we should also make it clear that Vaishnavas are the majority of all Hindus.Gaura79 (talk) 16:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
- Maybey that should be for the Vaishnava article not here?
- The introductory part of the article came out pretty good, but I think we should also make it clear that Vaishnavas are the majority of all Hindus.Gaura79 (talk) 16:10, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
- why duzenthis article got other perspectives? Im not talking about other religions/...
I dont like the sentence "Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism is monotheistic in its understanding of Krishna." as the second sentence becauze its too awkwerd and confusing - maybe word ti differently or place somtehing before it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.153.24.139 (talk) 04:14, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Concerns about current lede
I share Imc's opinion that the article lede should be written with the view that even a person unfamiliar with Hinduism or Vaishnava theology should be able to get a basic understanding of the subject and be enticed to read the whole article. I think some of the recent modifications have taken us further away from the goal, and I have several concerns about the current lede. I'll outline a few here:
- "Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism is monotheistic in its understanding of Krishna.[1][2][3][4][5][6] " This statement has six citations appended to it, but I am not sure which one actually supports this extraordinarily broad claim. For instance:
- Beck, page 39, which is cited both as reference 1 and 6, does not make this claim, and in fact the central theme of the book (which is an excellent source for the article) is the variety of ways Krishna is viewed in Hinduism. Also the quote from Beck is inaccurate.
- Citations 2 and 3 are specifically about the Chaitanya movement and not good sources for making broad claims about Vaishnavism. (I am not sure yet whether they actually support the statement either)
- Can someone provide the appropriate quote and context from, Ojha's "Aspects of Medieval Indian Society and Culture" that supports the statement ? The subject of the book indicates that it may not be relevant, but I would like to reserve judgment.
- The last source is a quote from Bhag. Purana, which is a primary source and hence not appropriate except when used in conjunction with secondary sources. Also, if anything, the statement is closer to qualified monism rather than monotheism.
- "A distinguishing feature of the Vaisnava teachings is that God, as Krishna or Vishnu,[7][8] is a real being and His creation is also real.[8][9]" has three refs attached to it. The statement appears to be almost a direct quote from this ICJ article; the other two sources are also specifically Gaudiya sources, and one of them, a "fortnightly mini-magazine" would not qualify as a reliable source. These sources may be ok if we were citing the Gaudiya or ISKCON views, but not for opinions attributed to Vaishnava's in general. For the latter we should use academic, rather than sectarian sources. More importantly, the statement is unlikely to make any sense to a reader who is not familiar with the nuances of the Advaita Vedanta/Dvaita vs Achintya Bheda Abheda schools of thought.
- The exact relationship between Krishna and Vishnu, particularly regarding which is "primary" to the other, is one of the more frequently discussed issues in the Vaishnava majority branch of Hinduism. This statement may be defensible, although the tone is somewhat unencyclopedic. But the main problem is that it uses adherents.com as a citation, which only supports the "majority branch of Hinduism" part of the statement, without being relevant to the main claim.
I think we need to be more careful in selecting sources and citing them appropriately. Having an uncited statement is bad, but adding references that are either unreliable, irrelevant, or representing of a singular POV is perhaps worse - because the latter create the illusion that the claim is well-supported and readers and editors are less skeptical than they should be.
I don't want to unilaterally undo the changes in the lede, but I would invite other editors to chime in. A request: lets keep the discussion focussed on the content, reference and organization issue and not point fingers at any editors or sects. Thanks. Abecedare (talk) 06:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- I propose the following lead:
Krishna (कृष्ण in Devanagari, kṛṣṇa in IAST, IPA: [ˈkr̩ʂɳə] in classical Sanskrit) is a deity worshiped across many traditions of Hinduism.
The adherents of the Vaishnava branch of Hinduism, who represent the majority of all Hindus, regard Vishnu as the Supreme God and the source of all avatars, while Krishna is usually worshiped as a full avatar of Vishnu or regarded as non-different from Him.[1] In some Vaishnava traditions, such as Gaudiya Vaishnavism,[1][2] the Vallabha Sampradaya and the Nimbarka Sampradaya, Krishna is worshiped as svayam bhagavan, believed to be the source of all avatars including Vishnu.[3][4] The exact relationship between Krishna and Vishnu, particularly regarding which is "primary" to the other, is one of the more frequently discussed topics in the Vaishnava tradition.[12] Vaishnava tradition is a monotheistic branch of Hinduism.[1][2][3][4][13][6] A distinguishing feature of the Vaisnava teachings is that God, as Krishna or Vishnu,[7][8] is a real being and His creation is also real.[8][9] There are a number of perspectives on Krishna within other traditions in India.[10]
Krishna is often described as having the appearance of a dark-skinned man during his earthly incarnation, often depicted as a young cowherd boy playing a flute (as in the Bhagavata Purana) or a youthful prince giving philosophical direction and guidance to others (as in the Bhagavad Gita).[8]
Krishna and the stories associated with him appear across a broad spectrum of Hindu philosophical and theological traditions.[14][9] Though they sometimes differ in details reflecting the concerns of a particular tradition, some core features are shared by all.[10] These include a divine incarnation, a pastoral childhood and youth, and life as a heroic warrior and teacher.[7]
Gaura79 (talk) 09:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- Gaura, I think you missed the point I was making. Many of the statements in the current lede are (1) unsupported by the attached citations, (2) would be unclear to someone who is not knowledgeable of the subject already and (3) are overly broad. These problems, unfortunately, will not be solved by rearranging the order of the sentences. Abecedare (talk) 14:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- 1) Perhaps you're right about the first point, but let's put it this way: can you cite any reliable sources that would disagree with what is written in the introductory part of the article? In my humble opinion, what is stated there is pretty much obvious for anybody sufficiently familiar with the matter. 2) I think the intro gives a simple introduction, but at the same time looks more deep into the matter. Some parts of it may not be easily understood by someone not familiar with the subject and so what? Do you suggest we should write it having in mind someone mentally challenged? Why underestimate so much Wikipedia readers. 3) It should be broad and give a summary of the whole article.Gaura79 (talk) 14:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- The question is not whether we disagree with what is in the introduction, or if there are references disagreeing with it. It is about relevance; about encyclopaedic writing; about providing a good and unbiased introduction.
- The intro now has become increasingly disjointed and biased toward explaining the importance of Krishna to Vaishnava beliefs, and the differences between these beliefs. The original source material for Krishna, the main text of the 18 parvas of the Mahabharata, is not mentioned now. It seems to me that it is more important to refer to Krishna's role in the Mahabharata, since since this is more important to Indian traditions and Hinduism as a whole.
- For some of the recent additions such as this - A distinguishing feature of the Vaisnava teachings is that God, as Krishna or Vishnu,[7][8] is a real being and His creation is also real - I cannot deduce any useful meaning. It seems to me that it only has meaning when compared to those who believe that he is not real, or that creation is not real. What is this doing at the head of the article?
- Imc (talk) 20:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- The focus of the current lead has largely shifted to Vaishnava theology and doesn't talk very much about Krishna, who should be the primary subject of the lead. I propose somewhat of a lead rewrite. For reference, to see the lead of a well-written article about a Hindu deity, see the FA Ganesha - something like this would be better for the article. --Shruti14 t c s 22:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the following two sentences from the lead for reasons stated above:
The Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism is monotheistic in its understanding of Krishna.[1][2][3][4][15][6] A distinguishing feature of the Vaisnava teachings is that God, as Krishna or Vishnu,[7][8] is a real being and His creation is also real.[8][9]
If we find appropriate sources for these claims they can be readded to the relevant section, or article. I may have broken some named refs in the process; I'll try to repair that damage soon. Abecedare (talk) 22:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, I have finished repairing all the refs I broke.
- However, we still need to check whether these and other references actually support the statements they are attached to. Abecedare (talk) 23:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
RE:Etymology
"The term Krishna in Sanskrit has the literal meaning of "black" or "dark", and is used as a name to describe someone with dark skin." shouldn't this be "The term Syama in Sanskrit has the literal meaning of "black" or "dark", and is used as a name to describe someone with dark skin." or "The term Krishna in Sanskrit has the literal meaning of "the all-attractive One"" Syama (talk) 02:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- The current meaning and text is correct. Look in any academic dictionary; e.g., online at [1] (search for kRSNa using their transliteration system). Shyama (search for zyama) has a similar meaning of course. There is no mention of 'all attractive' in the dictionary. I suspect that this recent meaning in the writings of some schools is born of simple colour prejudice. If so, people who follow these schools would be advised to do themselves a favour and stop referring to it. Imc (talk) 06:22, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- Besides dictionary meaning of the word, there are quite a few meanings that are defined in the context of the religious understanding of this particular Deity. Hardly any use to list them all, unless there are verifiable sources to back it up. Wikidās ॐ 08:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- Anyone with a basic knowledge of Sanskrit will agree the word "Krishna" means "black" in Sanskrit. 'all attractive' meaning needs a reference.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 12:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- Reference of what kind? You just removed 2 references. Do you need Sanskrit lesson or what? I removed them right back. Since you asked for reference. Wikidās ॐ 20:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- Wikidās, Redtigerxyz was referring to reliable sources, and not sources that do not meet the WP:RS criteria. Also, in Sanskrit, "Krishna" does mean "black" (or "dark") and the definition "all-attractive" is a Gaudiya-specific definition (AFAIK not supported by any other Vaishnava sect, including other "Krishna-first" groups, due to the original Sanskrit meaning). --Shruti14 t c s 03:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- I also agree with Shruti and Redtigerxyz; the actual sanskrit translation is "Black". And, ONLY the ISKCON/Gaudiyas think it is "all-attractive". Alot of the Gaudiya dont know Sanskrit.Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 08:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
(ec)
I have reverted this edit by User:Wikidas which added two references to the sentence, The Gaudiya tradition explains the primary meaning of the name Krishna as being “all-attractive”., because:
- The journal in the first citation was mislabeled, "Antimicrobial Resistance" instead of "Emerging infectious diseases"; it said nothing about "Gaudiya Vaishnavas"; but more importantly the CDC publication does not even close to being an authoritative source on this topic.
- The second source, which is acceptable as a source for the ISKCON viewpoint and makes a causal use of the phrase "Krishna, the 'all-attractive'", says nothing about the primary meaning of Krishna. (This deficiency can perhaps be remedied by rephrasing the sentence itself)
The only reason I am bringing this issue to the talk page, is because recently I have observed Wikidas add several questionable citations and citations that don't truly support the statements they are appended to (see above section for several examples). I hope that editors will keep an eye on his edits and referencing. Abecedare (talk) 20:16, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
- this one was only on the topic of the meaning used (even in CDC publication) Wikidās ॐ
- this one is the example of common use by Gaudiya Vaishnava.Wikidās ॐ
- thanks for check them out, after 50 way here and there edits the references moved. I did not bother to comment because of it. Some of the references were removed mainly because of POV by the other editor. But its always good to check refs.
- BTW I will add reference to Gaudiya Vaishnava source. Since you have asked please do not remove it. Thanks. Wikidās ॐ 20:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure what Wikidas is saying above, but he has re-added the mislabeled and deficient citations, as well as the citation to a ISKCON fortnightly email newsletter, which clearly fails WP:RS. I'll wait for some other editors to weight in. Abecedare (talk) 01:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- ISKCON/Gaudiya references (and others) are acceptable if and only if they are a) reliable sources, b) relevant to the topic, and c) the material derived from the reference is not original research. Any references and derived information that do not meet this criteria, ISKCON or not, must be removed and/or replaced with a better source. I'm afraid that most, if not all, of the re-added sources do not meet this criteria. If this information is to be added and cited, better references are needed, or else must be removed. --Shruti14 t c s 02:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- I believe that Wikidās was stating that his refs were ISKCON/Gaudiya sources and did not want you (or anyone else, myself included) to remove them on this basis. However, the sources fail WP:RS (or in the case of the CDC publication, not authoritative on the subject) and will have to be removed. --Shruti14 t c s 02:57, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- I completely disagree. The sources are reliable sources and are used on vast number of sites. Moreover they are reliable for the specific view of expressed - Gaudiya. There can be no doubt about it if one is Gaudiya. Wikidās ॐ 07:38, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Religious sources are reliable sources for religious viewpoints, so it's not uncommon for religion articles to use religious sources to explain the meaning of any religious title and nature of the role that religious leaders have in the religion or religious organization (which are, after all, religious matters). I wouldn't use them for non-religious or non-routine information. Please be reasonable. They are reliable sources, you know it. Wikidās ॐ 08:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- I also agree with Shruti and Redtigerxyz; the actual sanskrit translation of Krishna is "Black". And, ONLY the ISKCON/Gaudiyas think it is "all-attractive". Alot of the Gaudiya dont know Sanskrit.Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 08:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- You just confirmed that Prabhupada is reliable source for the specific meaning as its interpreted by Gaudiya. I thus insist that his references were included. Wikidās ॐ 08:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- kṛṣir bhū-vācakaḥ śabdo
- ṇaś ca nirvṛti-vācakaḥ
- tayor aikyaḿ paraḿ brahma
- kṛṣṇa ity abhidhīyate
- SYNONYMS
- kṛṣiḥ — the verbal root kṛṣ; bhū — attractive existence; vācakaḥ — signifying; śabdaḥ — word; ṇaḥ — the syllable ṇa; ca — and; nirvṛti — spiritual pleasure; vācakaḥ — indicating; tayoḥ — of both; aikyam — amalgamation; param — supreme; brahma — Absolute Truth; kṛṣṇaḥ — Lord Kṛṣṇa; iti — thus; abhidhīyate — is called.
- This is a verse from the Mahābhārata (Udyoga-parva 71.4) as quoted and already referred in the discussion. ;http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/9/30/en
- --Wikidās ॐ 08:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC) (and reformatted by Imc (talk) 09:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC))
- 1. From the Cologne Sanskrit dictionary, already referred to; the root kṛṣ (kRS which btw is not kRSNa) has a meaning 'draw', as in draw a ploughshare. The meaning of 'attractive' is not mentioned in this text. The word bhū, from the same source, means to exist, to come into being, and many other things, but not 'attractive existence'.
- 2. Udyoga parva 71.4; see the Ganguli translation at http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05071.htm which cannot be said to support the suggestion.
- 3. Prabhupada is a reliable source for the texts written by him. There is no reason to take him as RS for anything else when it is contradicted by other obvious evidence.
- Imc (talk) 09:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- You must off the wall to suggest that because a dictionary made in Germany gives a different translation, therefor Gaudiya Vaishnavas can not have any other translation as part of the cannon. There are so many translations of the name Krishna... btw http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/9/30/en is part of the Gaudiya literature and is explaining in the context of other verses. Ganguli is not Gaudiya (even I know that). If you find any other Gaudiya evidence that translates this verse to mean something else, let us know. Wikidās ॐ 10:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Krishna and Alvars
The following content (indicated by bolding) has recently been added to the article lede:
Within Gaudiya Vaishnavism and the Nimbarka Sampradaya, as well historically by alvars and other early adepts such as Bilvanmangala Krishna is worshipped as the source of all other avatars (including Vishnu).
The cited references are:
- Bilvanmangala author of Krishna Karnamrita. Krishna Theatre in India By M.L. Varalpande, p.88; 2002. ISBN:8170171512
- A History of Indian Literature, 500-1399: From Courtly to the Popular. Page 230 By Sisir Kumar Das. 2005 Sahitya Akademi. ISBN:8126021713
- Journal of the University of Bombay. Dr. Majmudar. v.11 pt.1-2 P. 34 1942.
However the references only seem to suggest that Krihna was worshipped ardently by some Alvars, and was the subject of the medieval composition Krishna-Karnamrita, but do not mention Krishna as the source of all avatars, as is being claimed. Can we discuss this here on the talk page to reach some consensus, and if need find appropriate sources ? Abecedare (talk) 20:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- To my knowledge, the Alvars were all Vaishnavas, but while they did worship Vishnu and all of His avatars, they never believed Krishna to be the source of them; they believed Vishnu is the source of the avatars. I have searched multiple times, and have yet to find a single source (even one that would undeniably fail WP:RS) that states that the Alvars believed Krishna as the source of the avatars. Also, the sources provided do not support the "as well historically by alvars and other early adepts such as Bilvanmangala" part of the statement above. Until we can find a reliable source that can prove the statement, it should be removed, as there is nothing I can find to support it. --Shruti14 t c s 23:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- A quick note: I have currently removed the statement from the article. We can readd it if a good source is found. Abecedare (talk) 23:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- Alvars worshiped Krsna under the name Vaasudev. Maybe that will improve your search through references. (Who wrote this? ---Govinda Ramanuja dasa)
- First off, The alwars KNEW that Krishna was Vishnu! The Alwars worshipped Vishnu/Narayana! Because it says so in the pre-itihasas text. Some of the alwars might of had Krishna as their ista-deva. But, But they knew that Vishnu is the First. Many hindus worship Krishna as their ista-deva, but, know Him to be Vishnu/Narayana. One of the main Divya-prabantams intoned by Sri Vaishnavas is the beautiful and powerful "Thiruppavai"...which is dedicated to Krishna! But, every one knows that Krishna is Vishnu. No questions asked. When it comes to things like this...we should and Must qoute and follow scripture! And, not some 13th-15th century Gaudiya or other Schism group books or books by others outside of the Sanatana-Dharma. And, the qoute from Bilvanmangala, is absolutely unfounded and the book that is was in is minor and trival. We must qoute scripture/Sastra and not some outside sources. With things like this, we are NOT going to find any thing that will justify Krishna as the source and, most perposterously, that the alwars BELEIVED that Krishna is the source. We need to ask Vedically trainned pandits for questions like this, and, The majority of them will tell you that, according to Sastra and Sadhu, Vishnu/Narayana in Vaikunta is the source. The only people saying other-wise are the ISKCON/Gaudiyas Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 15:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- AFAIK the Alwars are often associated with Sri Vaishnavism and sometimes other 'mainstream' sects which is why we can't seem to find any sources supporting the statement above that has now been removed. --Shruti14 t c s 20:09, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
- Alvars were loosely ideologically affiliated:
- The Alvar Andal's popular collection of songs Tiruppavai, in which she conceives of herself as a Gopi, is perhaps the oldest work of this genre. Kulashekhara's Mukundamala was another notable offering of this early stage.
- he lokāḥ śṛṇuta prasūti-maraṇa-vyādheś cikitsām imāṁ
- yoga-jñāḥ samudāharanti munayo yāṁ yājñavalkyādayaḥ
- antar-jyotir ameyam ekam amṛtaṁ kṛṣṇākhyam āpīyatāṁ
- tat pītaṁ paramauṣadhaṁ vitanute nirvāṇam ātyantikam
- he lokāḥ śṛṇuta prasūti-maraṇa-vyādheś cikitsām imāṁ
O people, please hear of this treatment for the disease of birth and death! It is the name of Kṛṣṇa. Recommended by Yājñavalkya and other expert yogīs steeped in wisdom, this boundless, eternal inner light is the best medicine, for when drunk it bestows complete and final liberation. Just drink it![16]
— Kulasekhara, Mukunda Mala Stotra, translation by Satsvarupa dasa Goswami
- Of the many hundreds of poetic Sanskrit stotras-songs of glorification offered to the Supreme Lord, His devotees, and the holy places of His pastimes—King Kulaśekhara's Mukunda-mālā-stotra is one of the most perennially famous. Some say that its author conceived it as a garland (mālā) of verses offered for Lord Kṛṣṇa's pleasure.[16]
- I will look for some more evidence, but your understand the fine line between the two before you jump in to judge or consider Alvars in Sri Sampradaya.Wikidās ॐ 20:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
What in the world are you talking about? The Alvars ARE Sri Sampradayam! What is your point? What are you trying to prove with what you wrote above in context with the alwars? The fact remains that the Alwars ARE Sri Sampradayam.Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 08:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
I want to have it from first and secondary sources on Alvars - did any of Alvars EVER said that all alvars belong to the sampradaya? Did any scholars ever say such a nonsense?. As far as I can see all five main traditions are inspired and resulted from Alvars. As part of the legacy of the Alvars, five Vaishnava philosophical traditions (sampradayas) have developed.Mittal, S. G. R. Thursby (2006). Religions of South Asia: An Introduction. Routledge. Page 27."As part of the legacy of the Alvars, five Vaisnava (devotion to Visnu) philosophical traditions (sampradaya) emerged that were based on the teachings of ..." See also [2]at least some Alvars existed before the concept of Sri Sampradaya or Nathamunis theory. On the other hand Sri claims that they belong to it, did any early Alvar ever said something to this effect? Wikidās ॐ 09:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Evidence of Vaasudeva (Krisna) and NOT Vishnu worship as the beginning of Vaisnavism
There is evidence that worship of Vasudeva and not Vishnu came at the beginning of Vaishnavism. This earliest phase was established from the sixth to the fifth centuries BCE at the time of Panini, who in his Astadhyayi explained the word vasudevaka as a bhakta, devotee, of Vasudeva. Another cult which flourished with the decline of Vedism was centred on Krishna, the deified tribal hero and religious leader of the Yadavas. The Vrsnis and Yadavas came closer together, resulting in the merging of Vasudeva and Krishna, This was as early as the fourth century BCE according to evidence in Megasthenes and in the Arthasastra of Kautilya. Vasudeva-Krishna liberates the throne of Mathura from his evil kinsman Kamsa, travels to the city of Dvaraka on the Arabian Sea to establish a dynasty, and in the Mahabharata he counsels his cousins the Pandavas in their battle with the Kauravas. This then took sectarian form as the Pancaratra or Bhagavata religion. A tribe of ksatriyas, warriors, called the Satvata, were bhagavatas and were seen by the Greek writer Megasthenes at the end of the fourth century BCE. This sect then combined with the cult of Narayana, a demiurge god-creator who later became one of the names of Vishnu. Soon after the start of the Common Era, the Abhiras or cowherds of a foreign tribe, contributed Gopala Krishna, the young Krishna, who was adopted by the Abhiras and worked as a cowherd and flirted with the cowherdesses. Only as a mature young man did he return to Mathura and slay Kamsa. The Vasudeva, Krishna, and Gopala cults became integrated through new legends into Greater Krishnaism, the second and most outstanding phase of Vaishnavism. Being non-Vedic, Krishnaism then started to affiliate with Vedism so that the orthodox would find it acceptable. Vishnu of the Rg Veda was assimilated into Krishnaism and became the supreme God who incarnates whenever necessary to save the world. Krishna became one of the avataras of Vishnu. In the eighth century CE the bhakti of Vaishnavism came into contact with Shankara's Advaita doctrine of spiritual monism and world-illusion. This philosophy was considered destructive of bhakti and important opposition in South India came from Ramanuja in the eleventh century and Madhva in the fifteenth century. Ramanuja stressed Vishnu as Narayana and built on the bhakti tradition of the Alvars, poet-saints of South India from the sixth to the ninth centuries (see Shri Vaishnavas). In North India there were new Vaishnava movements: Nimbarka in the fourteenth century with the cult of Radha, Krishna's favourite cowgirl (see Nimavats); Ramananda and the cult of Rama in the same century (see Ramanandis); Kabir in the fifteenth century, whose god is Rama (see Kabirpanthis); Vallabha in the sixteenth century with the worship of the boy Krishna and Radha (see Vallabhas); and Caitanya in the same century with his worship of the grown-up Krishna and Radha (see Gaudiya Vaishnavas). In the Maratha country poet-saints such as Namdev and Tukaram from the fourteenth to the seventeenth centuries worshipped Vishnu in the form of Vithoba of Pandharpur (see Vitthalas).
See:[3] Wikidās ॐ 08:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- My friend, this is totally, absolutely preposterous! I dont know where you got your information...but, it is totally non-scriptural and against all establish Vaishnava/Hindu traditions and principles! And,This was not believed in by any alwar, Ramanujacharya or any one or any thing else. I will contest this. I will go to actual, vedically trained pandits, if need be, to prove this ISKCON/Gaudiya concoction and speculation is wrong. Your hypothesis way out there! This takes the cake for outlandish ISKCON/Gaudiya beliefs!Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 15:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- Im certainly your friend.. Why do you think that two out of 4 main sampradayas maintain that above all Visnus that are involved in creation, there is an adi-rasa form who is the source of all potencies?
BTW The above is a quote from hiltar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/hindu/devot/vaish.html and the guy is not a Gaudia. Hope this helps...
There is plenty of archeological evidence to prove that Vasudeva-Yadava was worshiped way before Visnu. Wikidās ॐ 17:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- First; the two sampradayams that you mentioned are brake-off groups from the Madhvacharya sampradayam, then the Madhvacharya Sampradayam broke-off from the Sri Sampradayam. The Sri Sampradayam is the original Vaishnava group. We have the original truth. And, every thing that I have said is totally backed by Sastra, Sadhu and tradition. Every one out-side of Vaishnavism in Hinduism will tell you that Vishnu/Narayana is first and that the Sri Sampradayam is the original Vaishnava group. the two Sampradayam or brake-off groups that you mention came around the 12th to 16th centuries with new books and ideas that are totally new and different from the older, original groups.
- Second; There is No viable evidence to prove that this "Vasudeva-Yadava" worship is before Vishnu/Narayana...none. Where is this stated in Sastra? Did any of the Alwars, Yamunacharya, Ramanujacharya, Desika Vedanta said any thing about this....No, they didnt. It is speculation and a 12th and 16th century Gaudiya and Nimbarka group concoction. I have been a student and trainned in the Vedas for more than a decade and every thing that you mention...nowhere is this stated like this. And, it is perposterous. Every scholarly, practicing Hindu will refute this...unless he or she is a ISKCON/Gaudiya. Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 19:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Dear Zeuspitar, one answer is given to you by Hari-bhakti-vilāsa (1.73), wherein it is stated:
yas tu nārāyaṇaṁ devaṁ brahma-rudrādi-daivataiḥ samatvenaiva vīkṣeta sa pāṣaṇḍī bhaved dhruvam
Its written by a prominent son of Sri Vaisnava Srirangam priest who studed Vyakarana-kavya, Alamkara, and Vedanta, and became an expert in the said sastras. He also acquired knowledge of Bhakti-sastra under his uncle Prabodhananda Sarasvati a prominent scholar of Sri Ranga-ksetra.
The said father of the acarya Veṅkaṭa Bhaṭṭa onces said, “Lord Kṛṣṇa and Lord Nārāyaṇa are one and the same, but the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa are more relishable due to their sportive nature?"
To this he was answered: “Since Kṛṣṇa and Nārāyaṇa are the same personality, Lakṣmī’s association with Kṛṣṇa does not break her vow of chastity. Rather, it was in great fun that the goddess of fortune wanted to associate with Lord Kṛṣṇa.”
Veṅkaṭa Bhaṭṭa continued, “‘According to transcendental realization, there is no difference between the forms of Nārāyaṇa and Kṛṣṇa. Yet in Kṛṣṇa there is a special transcendental attraction due to the conjugal mellow, and consequently He surpasses Nārāyaṇa. This is the conclusion of transcendental mellows.’ “The goddess of fortune considered that her vow of chastity would not be damaged by her relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Rather, by associating with Kṛṣṇa she could enjoy the benefit of the rāsa dance.” Veṅkaṭa Bhaṭṭa further explained, “Mother Lakṣmī, the goddess of fortune, is also an enjoyer of transcendental bliss; therefore if she wanted to enjoy herself with Kṛṣṇa, what fault is there? Why are You joking so about this?” Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, “I know that there is no fault on the part of the goddess of fortune, but still she could not enter into the rāsa dance. We hear this from the revealed scriptures. “‘When Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa was dancing with the gopīs in the rāsa-līlā, the gopīs were embraced around the neck by the Lord’s arms. This transcendental favor was never bestowed upon the goddess of fortune or the other consorts in the spiritual world. Nor was such a thing ever imagined by the most beautiful girls in the heavenly planets, girls whose bodily luster and aroma exactly resemble the beauty and fragrance of lotus flowers. And what to speak of worldly women, who may be very, very beautiful according to material estimation?’ This is a verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.47.60) Hope this reference from Bhagavatam helps. Wikidās ॐ wrote this reply to the nice Sri Vaisnava at 20:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- First the Hari bhakti vilas is only accepted in the Gaudiya group. It is NOT original scripture. It is a "brake-off" group book. but,it is a good book.Again, the Sri Sampradayam, Vishnu/Narayana known to be first, because of Sastra. But, we love Krishna...it is Vishnu playing with the gopis. You put...“Lord Kṛṣṇa and Lord Nārāyaṇa are one and the same, but the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa are more relishable due to their sportive nature?" Yes! That incarnation is one of the greatest and most beloved of Vishnu, but, it does not mean that Krishna is above Vishnu! The fact that Lakshmi came and dance with Krishna...should let you know that....Krishna is Vishnu. "Lord Kṛṣṇa and Lord Nārāyaṇa are one and the same" of course this is true. Study the Narayana upanishad and Narayana Suktam. This is the basis of the Vashishta-advaita principle...but, it is ONLY Narayana,proven by scripture. Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 01:44, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Note for Wikidas and Zeuspitar: Please remember that wikipedia talk pages are not a forum to discuss subject of the article. Unless there is a specific proposal for adding/modifying content in the Krishna article, along with supporting references I suggest the above discussion be taken off this talk page, and ideally to an appropriate yahoo (or other) discussion forum. Abecedare (talk) 21:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- Abecedare...who are you? Are you an admin? You act like your a web master. Who are you to correct people? You have no right to doing this. If an Admin. said not...I will. This is very relavent to this page. These non-scriptural ideas being put on the articles must be dealt with. This Wikidas putting these outlandish ideas on the articles have to be dealt with. And, he thinks he can back his ideas up with vague ISKCON/Gaudiya references. Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 01:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Based on the above reference, and because Alvars normally fall under the tradition of Sri Sampradaya we can change the above paragraph to:
Within Gaudiya Vaishnavism, the Nimbarka Sampradaya and Vallabha Sampradaya Krishna is worshipped as the source of all avatars (including Vishnu).
Wikidās ॐ 10:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- Zeuspitar, Abecedare is not an admin but he is completely entitled to do what he currently is doing, that is, making sure both you and Wikidas adhere to Wikipedia's policies. (See WP:ENC and WP:NOT is and is not respectively). I encourage you to read Wiki's policy on WP:CIVILTY before accusing Abecedare of various things. You are right however, that Wikidas' notions more than likely can't be supported by WP:RS and are therefore not worthy enought to be on this (or on any Vishnu related) page. Furthermore, I second Abecedare's comment that this discussion doesn't suit the purpose of Wikipedia so it might as well be transferred to another website or forum which would allow this. GizzaDiscuss © 11:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- First, this it not about numbers. the Gaudiya and other groups are minority group, if not cults. their beliefs are not in keeping with the majority of Vaishnavas. Please, I have put on many pages that the ISKCON/Gaudiya beliefs are not in keeping with Scripture.period.Govinda Ramanuja dasa USA (talk) 16:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- (BTW - the link is WP:CIVILITY, not WP:CIVILTY). 02:58, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
- Some references that may be useful-
- by Samuel George Frederick Brandon:
- Page 137 Thus the Bhagavatas represent beginning of - Vaisnavism, ...
- By time of Bhagavadgita devotion to Krishna, Vasudeva and Vishnu had been synthesised
- Brandon, S.G. (1970–1978). Dictionary of Comparative Religion. Macmillan Pub Co. ISBN 0684310090.
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- Page 76 of 386 pages: The Bhagavata religion with the worship of Vasudeva Krishna as the ... of Vasudeva Krishna and they are the direct forerunners of Vaisnavism in India.
- Ehrenfels, U.R. (1953). "The University Of Gauhati". Dr. B. Kakati Commemoration Volume.
- Page 98: In the Mahabharata, Vasudeva-Krishna is identified with the highest God.
- Mishra, Y.K. (1977). Socio-economic and Political History of Eastern India. Distributed by DK Publishers' Distributors.
- Page 109 of 128 pages
- Quote with reference to EB-CDROM:Sectarian Vaishnavism had its beginnings in the cult of Vasudeva-Krishna, who may have been a Yadava tribal leader (c. 7th-6th century BC)
- Ravasco, G. (2006). Towards a Christian Pastoral Approach to Cambodian Culture. Lulu. com. ISBN 1411693302.
- --Wikidās ॐ 11:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- ^ a b c d e f Guy 2005, p. 39, page 39 'According to Ortodox Gaudiya.. Krishnas svarupa, or true form manifests in three ways. His svayam-rupa or transcendent form is self-existent, not dependent on anything. His tadekatma rupa is identical in essence to his true form, though it differs in appearance (and would include such forms of Krishna as Narayana and Vasudeva). His avesa form has Krishna appearing though in varying degrees of possession' Cite error: The named reference "Guy" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
- ^ a b c d Kennedy, M.T. (1925). The Chaitanya Movement: A Study of the Vaishnavism of Bengal. H. Milford, Oxford university press.
- ^ a b c d Delmonico, N. (2004). "The History Of Indic Monotheism And Modern Chaitanya Vaishnavism". The Hare Krishna Movement: The Postcharismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant. Retrieved 2008-04-12.
- ^ a b c d Ojha, P.N. (1978). Aspects of Medieval Indian Society and Culture. BR Pub. Corp.; New Delhi: DK Publishers' Distributors.
- ^ Bhag.Purana 1.3.28 "All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Sri Krishna is the original Personality of Godhead."
- ^ a b c See McDaniel, June, "Folk Vaishnavism and Ṭhākur Pañcāyat: Life and status among village Krishna statues" in Beck 2005, p. 39
- ^ a b c d e G.G. Swami, A.C. Bhaktivedanta (2001, Fortnightly email mini-magazine from Gopal Jiu Publications). "Krishna OR Vishnu?" (PDF). Retrieved 2008-04-12.
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(help)...Similarly, if you love Krishna, that’s all right. If you love Vishnu, that is also all right. But you cannot derive the same result by loving Krishna and by Vishnu. Therefore it is your selection, whom should you love. Krishna is cent percent and Vishnu is ninety-four percent. So if you want to worship or love ninety-four percent, that is also almost Krishna. But Krishna is cent percent, pūrnam.(see: Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu additional qualities of Krishna) - ^ a b c d e f g h Elkman, S.M. (1986). Jiva Gosvamin's Tattvasandarbha: A Study on the Philosophical and Sectarian Development of the Gaudiya Vaisnava Movement. Motilal Banarsidass Pub.
{{cite book}}
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(help) - ^ a b c d Mahony, W.K. (1987). "Perspectives on Krsna's Various Personalities". History of Religions. 26 (3): 333–335. Retrieved 2008-04-12.
- ^ Chaitanya Charitamrita Madhya 20.165
- ^ "Majority in Hinduism". Adherants.com.
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- ^ Chaitanya Charitamrita Madhya 20.165
- ^ Bhag.Purana 1.3.28 "All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Sri Krishna is the original Personality of Godhead."
- ^ a b Mukunda Mala Stotra: The Prayers of King Kulasekhara,[4] A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (Author), Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami (Author) ISBN 0892132752