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Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2018
Change 'The word's true origin is unknown, but it existed in the Middle Scots period' to 'The word golf is thought to have originated from the old Dutch word for club or bat: "kolf."' Source: https://www.etymonline.com/word/golf Rdegregzz4004 (talk) 16:13, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
- This is a reference to the golf misconception about it not being an acronym of "Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden". Instead of doing that I just removed it. The phrase "Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden" is mentioned in the article, but not the misconception, so fails inclusion criteria. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 04:41, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
poverty
Global poverty has declined dramatically, but the overwhelming majority of people think it hasn't.[1]
Where should this go? I'm kinda surprised there's no "economics" section. There are a lot of common misconceptions about economics. Benjamin (talk) 19:08, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
- It would have to be a reliably sourced stable part of a link-able article. We got Poverty, but it ain't stable (its new) and its not reliably sourced. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:56, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
- Our World in Data is a very reliable source, right? But I'm trying to find the original source... Benjamin (talk) 20:09, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Found it! [2] Benjamin (talk) 20:13, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure exactly how useful mediabiasfactcheck.com is in determining reliability for Wikipedia, but for what it's worth, left right bias doesn't seem to be a problem here, since one source is left and one right. (And still, neither are extreme.) Benjamin (talk) 20:38, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
- Linked source fails a bit in reliability because its more of a primary source paper, not the boiled down secondary source required (see WP:PST). It also does not seem to describe a misconception. For a list of "common misconceptions" there would have to be (several) main stream sources describing the misconception specifically. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 21:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
- Shouldn't it be okay in this case since it's not WP:SYNTH? Benjamin (talk) 23:07, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
- We really haven't got past WP:V yet, let alone criteria #2. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 00:49, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- What do you mean, you don't think it's verifiable? I don't understand. Our World in Data is widely cited and has a reputation for producing high quality research. Do you really think they would just make something up? Benjamin (talk) 00:53, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- We have only one source claiming this is a misconception, HumanProgress... and yeah, they are known to make stuff up. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 01:16, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- What do you mean, you don't think it's verifiable? I don't understand. Our World in Data is widely cited and has a reputation for producing high quality research. Do you really think they would just make something up? Benjamin (talk) 00:53, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- Ballotpedia and CATO are two more secondary sources. But in this case, the data is clear, isn't it? There's no controversial or complicated analysis to make. Global absolute poverty is going down, and most people don't think so. These are facts. Do you really think that is in dispute? This is ridiculous. Benjamin (talk) 03:15, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- The problem is this is a list that lists Wikipedia articles that have a certain attribute, they enumerate a "common misconception". We don't make those assertions or those arguments here, no matter how well sourced. Its getting the cart before the horse. The place to discuss is Talk:Poverty. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 16:00, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
I have to agree with Benjamin on this one. There is clearly a perception out there that global povery is as bad or worse than it was 50 to 100 years ago. I think the sources provided are certainly sufficient to show that it isn't correct. Though I agree, there isn't quite enough yet to support that it is, in fact, a misconception. I would add to that list [3] and [4] and [5] all of which imply or openly state that global poverty is worse than it was (usually by using a misleading stat or a stat that isn't directly related to poverty like income disparity). Squatch347 (talk) 12:47, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- I agree that this perception seems to exist. But we need sources showing it. We have sourcing showing that it's wrong, but we need sources showing that it exists. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- How about this?[6] It verifies both that poverty has declined and that most people don't think it has. TompaDompa (talk) 13:48, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- That source looks pretty good to me, and it supports both statements and the conclusion. Go for it. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:26, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- It should really be at Poverty, well sourced, and stable, before its listed here. We should not front run these things. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 16:00, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not arguing with you, I'm just discussing where the discussion is taking place. Make the edit at Poverty, and then give it a day or two. If no-one reverts, add it here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:17, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- Well, I wouldn't expect Poverty to have a section about misconceptions, that is more in this page's balliwick. If you review the section on absolute and relative poverty it does contain the same trends and statistics referenced above. That poverty is decreasing. Agree with Bryn that we don't want to get out ahead of other articles, but I'm not sure that where we would put a section about misperception in that article without making it unencylopedic. Squatch347 (talk) 13:17, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not arguing with you, I'm just discussing where the discussion is taking place. Make the edit at Poverty, and then give it a day or two. If no-one reverts, add it here. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:17, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- It should really be at Poverty, well sourced, and stable, before its listed here. We should not front run these things. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 16:00, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
- I think the current wording is fine. Benjamin (talk) 13:22, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
- Benjamin, can you post the exact text you suggest for review? Squatch347 (talk) 15:18, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
- Cleaned up the wording in the "Global prevalence" section. I agree with Squatch347 that making the language more encyclopedic (and looking over the sources re:what the study was and opposing views) this sounds more like peoples POV on poverty and/or their lack of awareness of a United Nations or World Bank report, not a "misconception". Also if claim has opposing viewpoints I don't think we can call it a "misconception" per WP:YESPOV. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 01:05, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? The survey question wasn't "What is your opinion of poverty?", or "Have you heard about this particular report?", it was simply, "Do you think extreme poverty has increased or decreased?". And I think the results are clear. Benjamin (talk) 09:05, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
- Also, to clarify, it is a fact that extreme poverty has declined. That much is not controversial. The controversial part is where exactly to set the threshold. But nevertheless, No matter what extreme poverty line you choose, the share of people below that poverty line has declined globally. Benjamin (talk) 12:02, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
We can't get inside other peoples heads as to what they thought a question meant, hence the observation being made that making such a statement as "common misconception" in Poverty is beyond what an encyclopedia does, we just present facts and figures. That makes us fall short of listdef #3. The WP:SAL/WP:V "common misconception" would have to be a large number of sources stating directly that this is a "common misconception" to get us past listdef #2, not seeing that. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:06, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
- I think the sources are sufficient to establish the misconception. Benjamin (talk) 22:33, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Gents, I think firm up the consensus developing and perhaps give Bryn a bit more assurance, Benjamin, can you paste here your recommended addition? Squatch347 (talk) 13:10, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Given that Benjamin hasn't posted a recommended entry. I'll offer one: "It is a common perception that global poverty is increasing (references) both in scope and scale. However, absolute and relative poverty (link to concepts) have both declined dramatically during the 20th and 21st Centuries. While estimates differ based on the methodology of defining poverty, most estimates range between 20 and 40 in the last two decades (references). Squatch347 (talk) 13:21, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
- It strikes me as too strongly worded. I am totally on board with the notion that global poverty has gone down at a remarkable rate, almost certainly far more than most people would guess, but I'm not convinced that there are a large group of people that actually think it's gone up. I suspected something most people don't think about very often, so if we did a "man or woman in the street" survey, we did all lot of "I don't know", a few "about the same", a few" up maybe?", with the last group similar to the size of people who believe in ghosts. I think this is worthy of entry but we need to do more work on wordsmithing and I apologize for simply throwing rocks at your suggestion and not offering an improved alternative.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:01, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
- Don't worry about it, I threw it up there for people to throw rocks at. I think you are right that most people don't actually think about it much. The man on the street poll was what was discussed with the book citation referenced earlier. It seems to indicate that less than 10% of people correctly answered the question about poverty rate change, which seems somewhat dramatic. Maybe change the opening sentence to say something more like "When polled, few respondents could correctly identify that poverty rates have decreased, with a strong majority indicating they thought they had increased."
- Thoughts? Squatch347 (talk) 18:58, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
- Are you referring to this poll?
- Thoughts? Squatch347 (talk) 18:58, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
- That's a mildly frustrating article (unless I read it too quickly). I understand that when someone does a survey with lots of questions and lots of possible answers, it may be difficult to provide an exhaustive list of all the answers but in this case they asked one question with three possible answers. They provided the statistics for the people who got the correct answer (C), which is enough information to know the values for the sum of A and B, but they don't break out the responses for answer A. Your revised wording is correct only if you have evidence that the respondents who picked answer A are a strong majority. That doesn't appear to be in the link I provided — perhaps you have a link with more detail?--S Philbrick(Talk) 21:12, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
- That appears to be the same poll, though it came through in a different source (linked in this discussion). The conclusion that most respondents had overestimated was contained in the surrounding text. I did find this: https://globescan.com/increases-in-perceived-seriousness-of-poverty-and-homelessness-global-poll/ perhaps as another source. It also has its limitations as some of its earlier polls referenced conflate economic fairness with poverty rates. Still, it does seem to indicate that the perception of poverty as increasing is present in the country's surveyed. Squatch347 (talk) 12:05, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
Ok, I've made some edits based on the feedback:
- "When polled, a majority of people in most developed nations indicate they believe that global poverty is increasing [Human Progress][Forbes][Factfulness book] in both scope and scale. However, absolute and relative poverty (link to concepts) have both declined during the 20th and 21st Centuries. While estimates differ based on the methodology of defining poverty, most estimates range between 20 and 40 in the last two decades [Human Progress][Our world in data][finca][globalissues][factfullness].
Squatch347 (talk) 16:47, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
- Assuming your linked article is poverty, it still fails #3, there is not a "common misconception" described at that article. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 17:00, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
- Both Poverty and Extreme poverty reference this as a misconception based on public opinion polls and reference the reduction. Given that, I think it qualifies fine. Squatch347 (talk) 17:05, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
- The benchmark here is "common misconception", not just that people think something else. That it is a common misconception needs to be hashed out at the linked article first (supposedly where the experts are), before its added here. In short you are proposing this change on the wrong talk page(s), i.e this should be discussed at Talk:Poverty and/or Talk:Extreme poverty. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:24, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
- Both Poverty and Extreme poverty reference this as a misconception based on public opinion polls and reference the reduction. Given that, I think it qualifies fine. Squatch347 (talk) 17:05, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
- The fact that it is an incorrect belief that is widely held doesn't constitute a "common misconception?" The requirement is: "The common misconception is mentioned in its topic article with sources." The misconception is listed on that page and it has sources. There is nothing in there that says that we need to get a vote or consensus. It is on that page and listed with sources. Requirement met. Squatch347 (talk) 19:12, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
Requirement #3 is "The common misconception is mentioned in its topic article with sources.", not "The misconception"... Also the secondary sources have to state that it is common misconception, we can not do the WP:OR of comparing numbers and polls and drawing our own conclusion that it is a "common misconception". The claim is also contradicted by the very next citation in Poverty, so we can not make an assertion that is is an "incorrect belief" per WP:YESPOV #2. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:47, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ HumanProgress, "What 19 in 20 Americans Don't Know About World Poverty," April 30, 2018
- ^ https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty
- ^ https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/10/29/29-uncomfortable-myths-about-soaring-poverty-in-america/#d1d28913963a
- ^ https://www.finca.org/campaign/world-poverty/
- ^ http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats
- ^ Rosling, Hans; Rönnlund, Anna Rosling; Rosling, Ola (2018-04-03). Factfulness: Ten Reasons We're Wrong About the World--and Why Things Are Better Than You Think. Flatiron Books. p. 7. ISBN 9781250123817.
Mayflies
There's a myth that mayflies only live 24 hours, when really that's just how long their adult stage lasts. It gets referenced here on the entry on houseflies, but I think it deserves its own bullet point. — DanielLC 20:58, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
- Per the inclusion criteria at the top of this talk page, the misconception should be mentioned in the article with citations. I do not see a misconception mentioned in the article. In fact the article seems to imply that the lifespan depends on the species and can be very short. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 05:51, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
- Surely this is just semantics, people taking the word "mayfly" to refer to the winged form, in the same way that most people take "butterfly" to mean this rather than this. Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 13:30, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
Recently added then removed section Discussion
Fountains of Bryn Mawr removed the addition by an editor I've pasted below with the note that it fails criteria two and three. If I understand it correctly those are:
The item is reliably sourced, both with respect to the factual contents of the item and the fact that it is a common misconception. The common misconception is mentioned in its topic article with sources.
I'm not sure how it fails those two criteria. The Atlantic is a reliable source for this kind of misconception and it has sufficient evidence within the body of the article that it is a common misconception. Likewise it references it as a common misconception and references multiple examples within the body of the article. Given that, I recommend it for reinclusion.
- Women in the Victorian era suffering from hysteria were not treated by doctors with vibrators.[1]
Squatch347 (talk) 13:17, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
- The entry (confusingly) linked three topic articles. hysteria contains the wording "some historians dispute" and vibrators has the wording "historians disagree", so that fails #3, no misconception mentioned. The source being used is brand new, again equivocates "probably a myth", has no supporting sources for claims of "common misconception" other than anecdote, is a single source, and we will obviously have no further sourcing as to this being a "common misconception", a requirement re:reliable sourcing - so fails #2.
- We seem to still be at a disagreement amongst historians, which is not actually a misconception. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 11:58, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
- I agree that the multiple article links does make it confusing. My take is that this is a matter of taste for wiki editors, some like to link any and all relevant subjects (which seems to be what is happening here) while some (like you, and I think correctly) choose to link only those directly relevant to the sentence or topic. I'd be happy to limit the linkages to other articles, but I imagine someone will put them back in.
- The misconception is definitely mentioned in the article, so I think we can dispense with objections based on criteria three. Rather it seems your concern centers around criteria two. I think there are some sections of the article that address those concerns.
- The item is reliably sourced, both with respect to the factual contents of the item and the fact that it is a common misconception.
- I'll assume we don't have any issues with the reliability of the Atlantic per se so I'll move on to whether or not the article discusses this as a common misperception. "And in the past few years, it has careened around popular culture. It’s given rise to a Tony-nominated play, a rom-com starring Maggie Gyllenhaal, and even a line of branded vibrators. Samantha Bee did a skit about it in March. A seemingly endless march of quirky news stories has instructed readers in its surprising but true quality, including in Vice, Mother Jones, and Psychology Today.
- In short, the tale has become a commonplace one in how people think about Victorian sex. " This paragraph would seem to put forward that the misconception is, in fact, common. It references multiple sources referencing it, including from other journalists.
- Your elaborated objection was based on whether it was, in fact, a misconception. I think the key phrase in the section you quote from the Hysteria article is, "some historians dispute Maine's claims about the prevelance..." The next sentence also details that Maine thinks the claim is a hypothesis, not a fact. We should also point out that there are more citations for the contrary position in that article than in the support.
- If we are aiming at the historical consensus on this subject (which I think we are), we need to recognize that the only source of the vibrator hypothesis is Maines. Both the Atlantic and Wiki article only cite Maines as a reference. We have three dissenting sources in the wiki article, with an additional semi-dissent from Maines herself. There are five additional sources in the Atlantic article rejecting Maines' assertions.
- Thus I think this entry does meet the criteria of being a misconception. Historians generally agree (with one exception) that victorians did not invent the vibrator due to female hysteria and we see that the belief that they did is common in culture.
- Not sure why we would consider sources pro/con on the claim itself, its not the topic of this article and disagreement amongst historians are covered by WP:YESPOV, we don't take sides. Items on this list have to be "common misconceptions", so multiple sources are needed saying specifically "X is a common misconception". Up to (a few weeks ago?) this was not a misconception, just several opinions. I doubt any other sources have cropped up in that time couching this as a "common misconception". As for The Atlantic, works of journalism are not that high on the reliability scale, no way to check fact-checking or accuracy, unless they cite further sources, which they generally don't. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 21:26, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
- So, what you're saying is that the societal misconception itself needs to be more specifically sociologically studied in order to qualify? Or alternatively we need to see a few more articles like The Atlantic popping up on the topic? Deku-shrub (talk) 10:06, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
- Not sure why we would consider sources pro/con on the claim itself, its not the topic of this article and disagreement amongst historians are covered by WP:YESPOV, we don't take sides. Items on this list have to be "common misconceptions", so multiple sources are needed saying specifically "X is a common misconception". Up to (a few weeks ago?) this was not a misconception, just several opinions. I doubt any other sources have cropped up in that time couching this as a "common misconception". As for The Atlantic, works of journalism are not that high on the reliability scale, no way to check fact-checking or accuracy, unless they cite further sources, which they generally don't. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 21:26, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
It needs to be covered, period - we can't make a claim of "common misconception" based on one source. You kinda have it in a nutshell - its covered in the first sentence of WP:V - "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it." We actually need to see many articles better than The Atlantic on the topic. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 17:55, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
- I think that is an artificially high standard. If we were to follow that inclusion criteria we would need to remove about 75% of what is on the page now. The criteria listed at the top of the talk page make no mention of needing a wide variety of sources. In this case, we have a secondary source that says the misconception is widespread and that it is false. We have additional research showing that it is false. That is plenty given the criteria on this page. Squatch347 (talk) 10:44, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
- Per WP:SALLEAD the List inclusion criteria is pretty clear, title "common misconceptions" and "erroneous beliefs that are currently widely held about notable topics". That would equal a very wide base of citations we can pull from about this being a misconception, so yeah... its a high standard. WP:OTHERSTUFF exist arguments are not considered very good criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia. If other items on this list are weak, they should be removed Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:29, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
- And none of the criteria mentioned in the lead require multiple sources for the misconception do they? As long as the source referenced expresses that it is a misconception widely used, that meets the criteria as I read them. Perhaps you could elaborate on which criteria you feel requires more than one source? Squatch347 (talk) 14:57, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
- Unless we are reading from different dictionaries, "common misconception" and "widely held" are very clear. The source referenced has to be reliable for that claim (a single piece of journalism is not) and once removed there is an extra criteria to prove that this is a "common misconception" i.e. more reliable sources making the statement. This list has many criteria (which I did not write) which seem to boil down to "do not unintentionally or intentionally WP:POVFORK claims here". Hence the requirement (which this item still fails) of it being covered in the linked article first. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:14, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
- I'm a bit confused by your response. Are you under the impression that the Atlantic article's internal discussion about it is the only source referenced? IE when they reference the confusion that is all this comment relies on? If so, I think this is an easy fix. The Atlantic article references it being widely used. It references more than a half dozen uses in culture generally including several other journalistic entries. Does that help clarify the issue? Squatch347 (talk) 19:52, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
- "If a reliable source says A (a claim is demonstratively false), and another reliable source says B (examples of that false claim's uses in culture), do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C (it is a common misconception)" (see WP:SYNTHESIS). So, no, we can not follow up those sources to support a conclusion. The Atlantic article is the only source referenced that draws a conclusion along the lines of a common misconception. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:37, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
I've gone hunting for more misconception sources
- No, no, no! Victorians didn’t invent the vibrator,
- Galen and the widow. Towards a history of therapeutic masturbation in ancient gynaecology "Her “hypothesis” has become fact for many people",
- Buzzkill: Vibrators and the Victorians (NSFW) "So, what can we salvage from this much loved and widespread myth?".
- Why the Movie “Hysteria” Gets Its Vibrator History Wrong
- https://wellcomecollection.org/articles/hysteria "The source of this myth is Rachel Maines and her 1999 work The Technology of Orgasm"
I think these plus the Atlantic qualify things well, those are strong sources Deku-shrub (talk) 21:16, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
- Those would not be sources on a misconception because they predate the debunking of Maines re: they date 2014, 2011, 2017, 2012, 2015 respectively. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:35, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
- Your response does not match the scenario. Rather, a reliable source (A) uses six other sources (some reliable, some not) as evidence of a misconception in widespread use. The same relaible source (A) also points out that that misconception is incorrect using relialbe sources (B,C,D). That isn't synthesis, it is directly pulling from the secondary source.
- The King reference is specifically rebutting Maines. Pgs 206-208 discuss, in part, how widespread the misconception is, though admittedly not with external sources.
- The Guardian article references two popular culture references for this misconception as well.
- That brings us up to three secondary sources with 10 references to this misconception in general use in the culture. That clearly satisfies the requirements for this page.
- "rebutting Maines" is a "disagreement amongst scholars" and a disagreement is not a misconception. A misconception is a mistaken belief, a wrong idea, and people who read and believed there was a vibrator/hysteria connection, stories based on Maines' supporting scholarly paper, did not "mistake" what they read. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 16:40, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
- @Fountains of Bryn Mawr: "people who read and believed there was a vibrator/hysteria connection, stories based on Maines' supporting scholarly paper, did not "mistake" what they read" An interesting epistemological position. According to Maines herself as well as subsequent academics and many popular commentators they did mistake what they read. However are we saying because the Maines paper was a RS at the time, citations built upon cannot even retrospectively be considered mistakes? This creates a very high barrier to overturn misconceptions based on reliable sources, which was in fact the whole point of the Atlantic article, the damage that academic mispublication can cause. Are there not precedents in Wikipedia for overturning RS's and derivatives previously agreed to be as such? Deku-shrub (talk) 19:40, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
- You didn't address the fact that there are 10 separate references in the links offered citing this as widespread and a misconception. We have at least two editors here who feel comfortable with this addition. Perhaps you could help us understand, what kind of source, exactly, would serve as evidence in your mind? Can you cite a source for any misconception that you think meets your idea of what the criteria are? Squatch347 (talk) 17:06, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
- "rebutting Maines" is a "disagreement amongst scholars" and a disagreement is not a misconception. A misconception is a mistaken belief, a wrong idea, and people who read and believed there was a vibrator/hysteria connection, stories based on Maines' supporting scholarly paper, did not "mistake" what they read. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 16:40, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
All of the sources, except one, predate this being a real misconception, so it doesn't matter how many of those you pile up, they do not make a statement this is a misconception, they describe a disagreement. Also 3 of those last sources describe it as a myth (a false story), not a misconception (a false belief). Those are two very different concepts and one is not covered in this list. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 18:21, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
- That didn't really answer my question though. I'm trying to understand, conceptually, what kind of sources meet your standards. Can you give me an example?
- It also isn't accurate. You are conflating citation with reference. There is one citation (the Atlantic), but that citation offers six references related to the misconception being widespread. Additionally, the articles linked by Deku are post Maines' work, and deal with it being widely accepted, even if it was prior to it being rejected by the academic community, it is still a misconception. Geocentrism was still a misconception before Galileo.
- I am not discussing "meet(ing my) standards", they are Wikipedia standards - which I have covered several times, please scroll up. The standard here is a source that has the ability to say "this is a common misconception". Please see WP:V and WP:RS if that is not clear. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 00:22, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
- Well no, the requirements for the page don't require multiple citations, which is what you are asking. That is solely your requirement. And the source offered contains six references as to this being a common misconception. It even ends one paragraph with: "In short, the tale has become a commonplace one in how people think about Victorian sex..." The need to have multiple sources, or to ignore some for this reason or that is coming from you, not from wikipedia. Unless you can show exactly where it requires multiple sources, I think we should move ahead with replacing the text given the status of the discussion. Squatch347 (talk) 11:53, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
I wanted to bump this with a suggestion of what text should be included. Feel free to make an edit or let me know if it is missing something.
- Despite being referenced commonly in culture [Atlantic Article][Why the movie...] and society at large [Galen and the widow link][Buzzkill Article][guardian], the idea that Victorian Era doctors invented the vibrator to cure female 'hysteria' via triggering orgasm is a product of a single work[welcome collection] rejected by most historians[Atlantic][Guardian][Galen and the widow].
Squatch347 (talk) 16:37, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ Meyer, Robinson (7 September 2018). "Victorian-Era Orgasms and the Crisis of Peer Review". Retrieved 6 September 2018.
Lead was not encyclopedic
Re-wrote the List lead paragraph because it did not reflect the hidden list definition at the top of the page and read like WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Selection criteria should be stated unambiguously in the lead for the reader as well as the editor (WP:SALLEAD). "notable topics" and "Each misconception and the corresponding facts have been discussed in published literature" is unnecessary, all Wikipedia content is notable and comes from published literature. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:45, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
- I appreciate the change away from "This list ... corrects erroneous beliefs". I'm not sure about "that are described in Wikipedia articles" ([1]). As I understand it, this list existed for a long time before that inclusion criterion was added, so there may be many items that fail it. Plus, other Wikipedia articles can be edited at any time without this list being updated. I see that inclusion criterion as being one that helps Wikipedians decide what belongs in this list, rather than something readers need to know about. Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 12:52, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
- Two of the four selection criteria state that there has to be a related article. I really have not looked into where the list criteria came from but it seems to be in line with WP:LSC re: common sense. List such as this are generally alternatives to Categories, being a list of articles that aids in navigation for someone who wants to find articles that cover a certain attribute - so - a list of articles. Its a "List of common misconceptions", so each entry should be notable enough to be covered at that article - its "common". To avoid POVFORKing, if the claim is not at the article it should not be here. "that are described in Wikipedia articles" could probably be removed, the reader does not need that stated and an editor will see the hidden selection criteria telling them it is a requirement. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 15:10, 12 September 2018 (UTC)