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Harryboyles (talk | contribs) m removing unsupported parameters in WikiProject banners Tag: AWB |
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{{Notice|See also: [[/Templates]]}} |
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{{mainpage date|December 8|2006}} |
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{{WPHOG|class=FA|importance=high}} |
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|action1date=21:06, 10 July 2006 |
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|action1link=Wikipedia:Peer review/Macedonia (terminology)/archive1 |
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|action2date=14:34, 23 August 2006 |
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|action2link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Macedonia (terminology) |
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!align="center" |[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]]<br/>[[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]] |
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|[[Talk:Macedonia (terminology)/Archive 1|Archive 1]] |
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|[[Talk:Macedonia (terminology)/Archive 2|Archive 2]] |
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|[[Talk:Macedonia (terminology)/Archive 3|Archive 3]] |
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||[[Talk:Macedonia (terminology)/Templates|Templates]] |
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==Vandalism== |
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This page is protected, but can someone please fix the blatant vandalism on this page soon, it's a little gross. Thanks, [[User:Riguy|Riguy]] 01:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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|action3=FAR |
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|action3date=09:57, 30 September 2008 |
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|action3link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Macedonia (terminology)/archive1 |
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Yeah, it's too often giant penises get put on the front page or the article. Is there a way to restrict images more thoroughly? [[User:Emersoni|Emersoni]] 02:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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|action4date=21:33, 13 August 2009 |
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|action4link=Wikipedia:Featured article review/Macedonia (terminology)/archive2 |
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|action5 = FAR |
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|action5date = 2023-04-30 |
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|action5link = Wikipedia:Featured article review/Macedonia (terminology)/archive3 |
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|action5result = demoted |
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|action5oldid = 1150729560 |
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Can we get edit protection for this page? There seems to be a problem with vandalism since the page went frontpage. Thanks! [[User:Tmrobertson|Tmrobertson]] 00:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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|maindate= 8 December 2006 |
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}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|collapsed=yes |class=B|listas=|1= |
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{{WikiProject Bulgaria|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject Greece|importance=high}} |
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{{WikiProject North Macedonia|importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Serbia|importance=mid |needs-infobox= |category= |Belgrade= |Belgrade-importance=}} |
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{{WikiProject Kosovo|importance=low}} |
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{{Etymology section}} |
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}} |
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__TOC__ |
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{{Clear}} |
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== Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page == |
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Theres a repeating image of a penis on the page now :S..... |
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Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. |
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Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Wikipedia. |
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This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. |
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If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the [[MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist|request page for whitelisting]]. |
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If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the [[MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist|blacklist request page]]. |
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If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request it's removal, or alteration, at the [[meta:Talk:Spam Blacklist|request page on meta]]. |
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When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. |
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The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. |
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Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly. |
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'''Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:''' |
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Yeah, nice penis. WHY THE F*** IS THIS FEATURE ARTICLE NOT PROTECTED!!!! I need to be an admin. |
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[[User:Charlesblack|Charlesblack]] 03:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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*<nowiki>http://macedonia.cjb.net/</nowiki> |
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*:''Triggered by <code>\bcjb\.net\b</code> on the global blacklist'' |
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If you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact [[User:Cyberpower678]] and ask him to program me with more info. |
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hahaha that was fucking hilarious. i wonder what freud would say XD |
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From your friendly hard working bot.—[[User:Cyberbot II|<span style="color:green;font-family:Neuropol">cyberbot II]] [[User talk:Cyberbot II|<sup style="color:green;font-family:arnprior">Notify]]<sub style="margin-left:-6.1ex;color:green;font-family:arnprior">Online</sub> 18:04, 8 December 2013 (UTC) |
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==Which picture?== |
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:The link is now dead, so I removed the passage that contains it, as will as the following sentence. Both cite web sites that d not have a neutral point of view and therefore cannot be used as reliable sources. [[User:AndreasJS|<span style="color:white;background:blue;"> Andreas </span>]] <sup><span style="font-size:x-small;">[[User talk:AndreasJS|(T)]]</span></sup> 22:46, 8 December 2013 (UTC) |
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==[[WP:URFA/2020]]== |
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[[Image:Historical Macedonia.png|180px|left]] |
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Many unsourced sentences and paragraphs. I'm not sure the last two sections ("Names in the languages of the region" and "Terminology by group") are relevant in an encyclopedia article. "Terminology by group" may be [[WP:OR]] ("Certain terms are in use by these groups as outlined below. Any denial of self-identification by any side, or any attribution of Macedonia related terms by third parties to the other side, can be seen as highly offensive.") |
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[[Image:Europe Balkans Macedonia geo.jpg|180px|right]] |
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The following maps are unsourced on Commons (and often of poor quality), which is an issue given how contentious the topic is: |
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NikoSilver and I have been love-bombing each other on my talk page over which image to use when this article gets to Main Page; I must say it's a nice change from most of WP. |
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* [[:File:HistMac.gif]] |
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* [[:File:LocationMacedonia-ROMAN-z.png]] (unless [https://www.unrv.com/ unrv.com] is a "highly reliable source"?) |
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* [[:File:LocationMacedonia-BYZ-1-z.png]] |
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* [[:File:LocationMacedonia-OTT-2-z.png]] |
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* [[:File:Borders of Macedonia according authors (1843-1927).png]] |
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* [[:File:Europe Balkans Macedonia geo.jpg]] |
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* [[:File:LocationMacedonia-HEL-2-z.png]] |
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The article mentions a source in one caption (Wilkinson, H. R. (1951). ''Maps and Politics: a Review of the Ethnographic Cartography of Macedonia''. Liverpool: [[Liverpool University Press]]. pp. ''(a)'' p. 1, ''(b)'' pp. 2–4, 99, 121 ff., ''(c)'' p. 120, ''(d)'' pp. 4, 99, 137, ''(e)'' pp. 2, 4. [[LCC (identifier)|LCC]] [https://catalog.loc.gov/vwebv/search?searchCode=CALL%2B&searchArg=DR701.M3+W5&searchType=1&recCount=25 DR701.M3 W5].) but I don't have access to it and I don't know what (a), (b), (c), (d), and (e) are. [[User:A455bcd9|A455bcd9]] ([[User talk:A455bcd9|talk]]) 12:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC) |
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The images can be found in situ at [[User_talk:NikoSilver#test]] and |
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[[Wikipedia:Today%27s_featured_article/requests#Macedonia_.28terminology.29]]. We still disagree on which to use, but at least our difference is aesthetic, not political: he thinks the one at right is pretty and I don't. What does everyone else think? [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 19:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:Thanks for clearing that out Sept! If I may add, our fellow editors must also judge which picture will be more intriguing for the readers of the main page to actually read our work. [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 19:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::As a matter of fact, I read the entire discussion and I see nothing wrong with any of the two pictures. I tend to like the right one a little bit more because it catches the eye, think of it like a cover of a book. [[User talk:FunkyFly|<span style="color:#0F0;background:#000;"><b> /FunkyFly.talk_</b> </span>]] 20:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:::I also don't really find anything wrong with either, and would be satisfied with any choice that may be made. Maybe for the main page the coloured map would be best, as it promptly catchs the eye; but I really don't know.--[[User:Aldux|Aldux]] 20:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC) |
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Left, almost certainly. - [[User:f-m-t|FrancisTyers]] [[User_talk:f-m-t|·]] 08:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:I also think the one at left more intriguing. The right one is a map of a transnational region; there are lots of those. I gather Niko thinks it will interest readers because of the encoded history: Macedonia was divided among three different nations in 1913, and part of it is now a fourth nation. But readers who don't know the history won't see it in the map. They ''will'' see Macedonia shifting around like a jumping bean on the left. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 18:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::Good point. I still find the right one eye-catching; and the left dull, though...[[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 19:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC) |
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[[Image:Europe Balkans Macedonia zoomed2.jpg|180px|left]] |
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:::Ummm, check if you like any of the pics (or set of pics) in [[/Templates]]...[[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 19:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::::[[Template:Macedonia confusing]] has its points; it's certainly vivid. Can we see a version without the yellow present borders? [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 22:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::I'll drop it in here tommorrow (in about 10 hours). I don't have the source file at home. In the meantime, I'm inserting this one here in correct size. PS. The left pic you and Fran like ''has'' the present-day borders. (we also have to insert the template in the article somewhere...) [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 23:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::::My reservation about the borders is not that they're PoV, but that they're '''bright yellow'''. This isn't a political difference. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 03:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC) |
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Ok. I couldn't remove them completely, because I can't reproduce the geo features below them. I toned them down to non-bright orange. Hit ctrl-F5. (we'll have to add the template in the article somewhere -any thoughts where?) [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 10:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC) |
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I created [[:Template:Macedonia historical borders]]. Please comment on it. We can place it: |
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#In the intro, instead of the intro template (the new template includes the contemporary definition) |
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#In the 'Notes' section, to attract attention |
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Either than that, replacing the historical template would remove substantial info and adding it in geo section would be too much (we'd have three images) not to mention irrelevant. The other sections are irrelevant also. Opinions? [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 14:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::Arrrrgh! What happened to the map? It scared away the cat the dog and all the fishes in the sea! [[User:Politis|Politis]] 14:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::Would it be possible to tone down the orange slightly? Maybe a different colour for the borders would improve it? - [[User:f-m-t|Francis Tyers]] [[User_talk:f-m-t|·]] 15:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::Why dont you make an animated gif? Send me the images for the four regions and I'll animate them :) [[User talk:FunkyFly|<span style="color:#0F0;background:#000;"><b> /FunkyFly.talk_</b> </span>]] 15:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC) |
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[[Image:LocationMacedonia-animated.gif|thumb|300px|The region throughout history]] |
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::Since I dont have the individual images on the color map, I made one using the images on the left. Please comment. Also I can make the image delays proportional to the amount of years the region spent in the given boundaries. [[User talk:FunkyFly|<span style="color:#0F0;background:#000;"><b> /FunkyFly.talk_</b> </span>]] 20:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::Btw the changing brightness of the rest of the image is a bug that should be fixable. [[User talk:FunkyFly|<span style="color:#0F0;background:#000;"><b> /FunkyFly.talk_</b> </span>]] 20:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:::Interesting. Fixing the brightness is important, though. A plain map with no Macedonia to mark the beginning of the sequence might be worthwhile; but not if anybody's going to claim it's PoV :-}. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 22:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::::So here it is the bug fixed, as well as a three extra frames added. Refresh your browser cache. [[User talk:FunkyFly|<span style="color:#0F0;background:#000;"><b> /FunkyFly.talk_</b> </span>]] 03:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC) |
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My two cents on this debate: The gray and white map is BORING. Nearly every article on a geographic entity in Wikipedia has a map with that color scheme. The topographic map with the regions colored in is far superior. Perhaps the national borders could be black instead of yellow, but otherwise it's clearly my preference.--[[User:DaveOinSF|DaveOinSF]] 04:39, 29 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:Thanks Dave, I guess everybody more or less agrees on the colored maps for the main-page. Funky had the best idea ever! I'll cooperate with him and produce an animated gif from the color maps of [[:Template:Historical Macedonia 2]]. What does everybody else think? [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 09:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC) |
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Ok, I just did it. Great thanks to FunkyFly for the idea. Ladies and gentlemen: I present you the new intro in [[Macedonia (terminology)]]! Kindly approve. [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 11:44, 29 September 2006 (UTC) |
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PS. The image size in 326px (article standard in templates) is around 600Kb, but it loads progressively frame-by-frame in all browsers. I will create a smaller thumb, at 180px for the main-page to relieve servers from shrinking the gif, and save download time. I will also replace the current pic in [[Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests#Macedonia (terminology)]]. [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 11:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::Looks excellent. You might need to insert a few extra transition frames, that's a bit too sharp. I dont think it will increase the size all that much. Also have larger delay because there's too little time to read the text at the bottom. [[User talk:FunkyFly|<span style="color:#0F0;background:#000;"><b> /FunkyFly.talk_</b> </span>]] 14:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::Malista! Animation looks really professional and clear, a concise journey - albeit through blurred centuries. May I propose that Philip's original Macedonian region was much smaller? Is it possible to include it? [[User:Politis|Politis]] 14:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:::Another suggestion, make a thin bar in the lower part of the image, right above the text, which fills first a quarter white, then with a quarter blue, then yellow and red to signify the evolution of the region. [[User talk:FunkyFly|<span style="color:#0F0;background:#000;"><b> /FunkyFly.talk_</b> </span>]] 18:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::::I was actually thinking that all colors have ah-hem certain [[flag|connotations]], so I'm gonna use white/brightness (which is neutral) everywhere. The region today must definitely be neither [[flag of the Republic of Macedonia|red]] nor [[flag of Greece|blue]]!! I can't think of any other 4 different colors that don't match any of the flags, so white/brightness it is. Not until tomorrow though... [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 23:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC) |
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I uploaded new versions. Clear your cache to view them. They incorporate the timeline, and all colors are different, yet neutral.[[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 16:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:Looks good (and with the colored patch moving around, I can actually see the terrain). [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 16:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::Ha ha! :-) [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 17:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC) |
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:::Comment - the new version is very nice. However, in the first frame representing ancient Macedonia, the area highlighted is a bit dark and difficult to make out against the terrain. Especially in comparison to the three subsequent frames, which are quite clear. Maybe a lighter blue would be more clear?--[[User:DaveOinSF|DaveOinSF]] 01:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC) |
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*Correct. I'll see to it along with the dates (below).[[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 11:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC) |
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===Dates=== |
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You may want to take out the dates, however. |
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*The Kingdom of Macedonia did not include Chalcidice until Phillip's time. |
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*Diocletian did divide provinces, but he didn't massively rename them. I will consult as to late-antique provinces. |
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*The Theme of Macedonia did '''not''' come into existence around 300; themes were not invented until after 600, and I believe the Macedonian theme was a later division (which is why it's over in Thrace) |
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*I recall something about themes not being used after the Byzantines recovered Constantinople; certainly this area stopped being under Byzantine rule well before 1453. In what sense it can be said to exist is debatable. |
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[[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 17:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC) |
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:Well, you're right. I had thought about it when I was making it. However, those are the dates of the respective 'periods'. In the historic template, we specify that the borders are those of the 'maximum extent' during those periods. I used the dates mostly as reference regarding the 'period'. For example, Macedonia was indeed conquerred by Ottomans well before 1453. Finally, I have one huge problem: I accidentally closed the file without saving the new colors etc and the application closed it without asking because I had exported the frames! I'll need to re-do it from there. If you find this glich very important, I will. But please spare me! [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 17:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::Let me do the research on late antique provinces first. (Can you scan the images back from WP?) [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 20:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC) |
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Yeah, please do that. And no, I can, but it won't do (objects and stuff). I'll just re-do it, don't worry. BTW, I also toned down the borders in that geo template you liked so much! :-) [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 20:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC) |
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:Man, I only moan from time to time, but I really am fast with this. I just re-built it. Just find the dates, and I'll fix it. [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 21:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC) |
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Iam in fovour of the new map. It accurately portrays the historical changes of Macedonia.[[User:Heraklios|Heraklios]] 22:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC) |
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Moving chronology looks fab (I still prefer the simpler version because it is less clutered; so I would combine the non-geographical map with colour). [[User:Politis|Politis]] 12:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC) |
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:You'd fail in Marketing courses you know... :-) [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 13:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC) |
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Sept: How is that date process going? If it's too tedious, I have an idea: Instead of trying to locate the specific dates for each province's borders, I can replace the text below to read 'Ancient ''period' '', 'Roman ''period' '', 'Byzantine ''period' '', and 'Ottoman ''period' '' instead of the current'' 'province'.'' What do you think? [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 09:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC) |
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:Done already per above for the meantime. [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 10:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::Can you just take the dates out? There was a province of Macedonia under Constantine [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0075-4358%281972%2962%3C75%3AMAFAUD%3E2.0.CO%3B2-F ] , and probably Justinian [http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-840X%28197403%292%3A24%3A1%3C10%3AWWPT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-7]. Finding the exact line when the Roman system broke down and ceased to exist is going to be a real pain; but neither 284 or 395 is the relevant line here; Heraclius is more likely. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 18:56, 5 October 2006 (UTC) |
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I was thinking of that too, but I thought there may be too many people who don't have an idea of the sequence of empires in the broader region. The caption states 'periods', not 'provinces'. We all agree that those are the dates for these periods, don't we? If you insist, I'll remove it, but I think it says something about the history, without misinforming. It is evident from the text that follows that these swaps in dominion were not done with a flip of the switch! Maybe we should expand the history of Macedonia (region) section instead? Also, I don't see any harm in placing an indicative timeframe. The scope of the article is definitely outside those detais, and, really, who cares if it was a couple of centuries earlier or later? [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 14:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC) |
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:No, actually, that's the problem. Was Justinian a Byzantine Emperor, or was he one of the last of the late-antique Roman Emperors? The answer depends partly on what field you're discussing, and in administrative history 600 or 700 makes a lot more sense as a division than 284. How about single dates, showing the date of the boundary shown (c. 340 BC, c. 1 AD, c. 1000 AD, c. 1875)? [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 16:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::I agree with this. Are these the exact dates? Can you cite them please? (I'll have to remove the time-bar too, I guess, huh?) [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 16:30, 10 October 2006 (UTC) |
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:::Well, the time-bar doesn't make precise claims. But it might be just as well to make it four equal parts, just to show sequence; there is a gap between the province and the theme too. All these dates are approximate; that's why ''[[circa]]'' (or ''c''.).[[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 20:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::Great, ''[[circus]]'' is fine (actually Macedonia jumps around more than those acrobats). I've inserted my comments below: [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 21:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC) |
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*340 BC: Philip took Olynthus and Chalcidice in 349-8; he controlled Greece only after Chaeronea, 338 BC. (Of course, Philip's rule extended ''much'' futher north than this map, but was it Macedonia?) [[Rostovtzeff]] ''History of the Ancient World'' I, 328-330 |
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**Sure. Maybe also Aldux's source that 'Ancient Macedon approx. coincides with modern Macedonia, Greece' if the dates concur. I'll ask. |
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***It may be the same problem in both directions: Philip was Hegemon of Thessaly and Captain of the [[League of Corinth]]; but that didn't make Corinth or Thessaly part of Macedon. So also the Thracian tribes up to the Danube obeyed Philip; but were they part of Macedonia? (Also, Philip's grandfather may well have ruled up to the Greek border only; but he didn't control Chalcidice either.) [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] |
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****We can safely assume that those northern territories kept their original placenames (like the southern ones did) and slip out of this obscurity by trusting Aldux's source. |
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*1 AD:Where did you get the map? Most maps of the Roman empire are under [[Augustus]] or [[Trajan]], c. 100 AD |
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**No idea. Fran had taken it from the Roman Macedonia article, I think. I'll ask. 100AD is fine with me. Do the borders coincide with those maps under Augustus and Trajan? If not, can you mail me a pic or upload a scetch? |
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:::Yep, thats where I got it from. I think I looked for the 'fullest extent' for each. - [[User:f-m-t|Francis Tyers]] [[User_talk:f-m-t|·]] 08:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC) |
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*900 might be better for the theme. It was founded under [[Irene (empress)]] (Warren Treadgold: ''A History of the Byzantine State and Society'', p. 421.; Treadgold's latest mention is [[Simeon I]]'s invasion of 924 (p.478); and [[John Tzimisces]] reorganized the Balkans in 972 into ducates of Adrianople and Thessalonica divided into small themes. The map on p 546, btw, shows it as even further east than your map, with a boundary beginning in the highlands above the Euros, going just north of Adrianople, and then down the middle of the peninsula almost to Constantinople. |
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**Can you email me a pic? Or can you upload a rough self-made drawing? |
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***I can't upload here; I'll see if something is on line. But did your map have a source? If sources disagree we can explain it in text. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 22:42, 10 October 2006 (UTC) |
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****I drew the map out of a descriptive text and extensive talk with the other contributors (who probably didn't have one infront of them either). It's all archived. That's why I need yours. You could check your e-mail and respond with a pic. |
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*For 1875, see Wilkinson; 1875 is a round number, but if you prefer the date of Meinhard's map, fine. |
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**Yeah, that we knew already. Sorry for including it in my question. 1875 is fine as a round approximation. |
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*[[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 20:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC) |
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**[[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 21:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC) |
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:::Sorry for awnsering so late to the call, hope you'll pardon me Niko :-) Regarding the dates, I believe we shouldn't be too fastidious, or else you guys have no idea the mess we can put ourselves in. To start with, Macedonia for centuries was just a portion of Greek Macedonia, and much smaller than is assumed. For many centuries it was no bigger than this [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Peloponnesian_war.png], with Upper Macedonia (today Western Macedonia) controlled by independent Macedonian tribes, and Thracian tribes in eastern Macedonia, and Greek poleis covering the coast. It started expanding really only with Archelaus, and parts of the today RoM and the Chalcidic peninsula were added by Philip; but not Thessaly or Thrace, that he ruled as head of the Thessalian League or as a sovereign over protectorates (Thrace). In Roman times, the borders changed considerably from time to time, and was once divided in ''Macedonia Prima'' and ''Secunda'', but kept till the administrative structure broke down in the 6th century. The new theme of Macedonia is first mentioned in 802 (Ostrogorsky). Obviously, the structure fell to pieces in 1204. Hope I've not been too boring.--[[User:Aldux|Aldux]] 20:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::::That's basically why I recommended no dates at all; but a representative date may be helpful to the reader. Should Chalcidike be part of Philip's "Macedonia"? [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 16:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::::Treadgold agrees that the whole system of themes was not revived in Europe after the recapture of Constantinople; but does Ostrogorsky say that the Macedonian theme lasted as late as 1204? [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 15:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::Ostrogorsky's book is not very easy to search, since it hasn't got a place index and is full of notes, and I can only say for sure that it was there is 1025, as one of the maps on the book lists it. The word Macedonia is mentioned on a few occasions regarding the 12th century, but I'm pretty sure Ostrogorsky means today Macedonia and not the theme. |
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:Help me out please. I don't know what to do. Can we just give it a rest as it is? I'm too tired modifying this picture so often! My proposal, is just leave the main historic '''periods''' (Ancient, Roman, Byzantine, Ottoman-Contemporary) and keep the indicative timeframe regarding those '''periods'''. If you want me to remove the dates, that's fine, but keep in mind that there are readers who may not know. I've clarified the whole thing in the map text already, by replacing the (wrong) ''Roman '''Province''''' and ''Byzantine '''Province''''', with the respective ''Roman '''Period''''' and ''Byzantine '''Period'''''. Please let us not elaborate any more with this. After all, this is a Terminology article (not History)! [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 16:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::My sympathies. I'm still talking to the energetic NikoSilver, who redid the headers because he was bored. Would it be too much trouble to move the dates from the gif to the template caption, like Geographical Macedonia, so Aldux and I could edit them? If you think the theme not worth another upload, at least this month, fine. (It may well be that all we ''know'' is that it included Adrianople and the coast southwards of it.) [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 16:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::For me Niko, no problem.--[[User:Aldux|Aldux]] 17:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC) |
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Ok [[re]] guys... I'll remove the dates, I'll change the Byzantine frame according to your description below, and I'll make all four time-bars equal. This template caption is somewhat unrelative for these date details, as it describes the contemporary extent of the definition. I suggest you edit the captions in {{tl|Historical Macedonia}} or {{tl|Historical Macedonia 2}} (which I can update according to the gif if you wish). [[Super Goofy|Ta-Dah]]!! [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 19:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC) |
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::Done. Clear cache to view. [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 21:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC) |
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===Map=== |
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In fact, it's a very small-scale map, and the following description is probably as precise as intended: Start near Alexandroupolis, a hair east maybe; follow NNE up the middle of Evros province, parallel to the Euros, until you're west of Adrianople; draw a straight line, ENE, parallel and just short of the Bulgarian frontier, until you're past Adrianople; and then a curvy line ESE towards Istanbul, curving more southerly a bit to avoid [[Arcadiopolis]] (= [[Lüleburgaz]], which was in the Theme of Thrace) then more easterly , then south into Marmora almost at the Bosphorus. The large inlet to [[Çatalca]] looks about right. Does this help? |
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But I strongly suspect that this is one theory of several, so you might be justified in skipping the whole thing. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 04:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC) |
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:I hope you really meant those last four words...[[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 16:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC) |
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==Links in headers== |
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My understanding is that links in headers increase server load. It's done in talk pages all the time, anyway, so if anybody else thinks [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Macedonia_%28terminology%29&diff=78118669&oldid=78082086 this edit] a good idea, fine; but I don't find links to plain [[Etymology]], [[history]] and so forth add very much. We should of course link to [[History of Macedonia]] and so forth, but that's what the {{tl|main}} templates are for. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] |
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:<s>reverting for now; but if no one chimes in, I'll take them out again.</s> I see Funky's edited; and this isn't worth merging edits to keep or to take out. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 18:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::Naaah, I wasn't very fond of it anyway... Check my [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Macedonia_%28terminology%29&diff=78118669&oldid=78082086 edit summary]. I guess I was too bored and definitely had to do something! [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 19:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC) |
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== "Selected" article in Greek WP == |
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Hey guys, I know most of you were eager to see that in the main page, so I thought I'd let you know about [[:el:Κύρια Σελίδα|this]] for starters! Congrats! [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 00:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC) |
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==Diocese== |
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The diocese of Macedonia should have a bullet of its own, it's a separate entity from the provinces. Let me throw out another suggestion; revert if you must, but do comment here. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 02:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC) |
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:Sure, ok. I formatted it. [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o<b><span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b>•</span>]] 10:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC) |
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== Notification == |
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The intro image has been nominated for Featured Picture ([[Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Image:HistMac.gif|here]]). I would appreciate your comments. Thanks! [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o'''<span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il'''</span>'''v'''</span>'''e'''</span>'''r'''•</span>]] 12:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:That image isn't working for me. After the Roman definition it goes black for a second, and jumps to the end. Anyone else having this problem? <sub>└</sub> <sup>'''[[User:Osgoodelawyer|<font color="blue">OzLawyer</font>]]'''</sup> / <sub>''<font color="black">[[User Talk:Osgoodelawyer|talk]]</font>''</sub> <sup>┐</sup> 00:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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::Me too. Same problem. Using Firefox on Windows. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] 00:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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:::I fixed it by replacing with the larger version. <sub>└</sub> <sup>'''[[User:Osgoodelawyer|<font color="blue">OzLawyer</font>]]'''</sup> / <sub>''<font color="black">[[User Talk:Osgoodelawyer|talk]]</font>''</sub> <sup>┐</sup> 00:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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== Vandalism == |
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Can we get edit protection for this page? There seems to be a problem with vandalism since the page went frontpage. Thanks! [[User:Tmrobertson|Tmrobertson]] 00:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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Theres a repeating image of a penis on the page now :S..... |
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== what did I miss? == |
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I remember some time back there was a revert war over the Macedonia disambiguation page. One of the rare things where a revert war produced such a fruit? [[User:John Riemann Soong|John Riemann Soong]] 00:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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== Protection? == |
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Isn't that against guidelines for articles on the mainpage? [[User:YankeeDoodle14|YankeeDoodle14]] |
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Ok, I see why now. I can't seem to get rid of the obsene pictures up, so an admin. might have to do it. [[User:YankeeDoodle14|YankeeDoodle14]] |
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:'''Found it'''. :o) The vandalism was on [[Template:Please check ISBN]]. <font color="#08457E" vlink="#08457E"><b>[[User:Tomtheman5|tiZom]]</b></font><sub><font color="black">[[User talk:Tomtheman5|(2¢)]]</font></sub> 00:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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::Nice work. I was going slightly insane looking for the origin. - [[User:BanyanTree|Banyan]][[User talk:BanyanTree|Tree]] 00:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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:Sad that it was up there for 9 whole minutes! Should we protect that template due to vandalism, you think? <font color="#08457E" vlink="#08457E"><b>[[User:Tomtheman5|tiZom]]</b></font><sub><font color="black">[[User talk:Tomtheman5|(2¢)]]</font></sub> 00:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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::It's been protected now, and there is a thread at [[WP:ANI]], which is probably the best place to discuss it. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] 01:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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:: Please also see the extensive discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Main Page featured article protection]], and the considerable number of editors who question this "policy". –[[User:Outriggr|<font color="#112299">Outriggr</font>]] [[User talk:Outriggr|''§'']] |
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== Animated image == |
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At some point, [[:Image:HistMac.gif]] was [[:commons:Image:HistMac.gif|placed on commons]] and the local copy deleted. However, the animation of the one on Commons seems faulty, so I've undeleted the local copy - someone might want to take a look at the two of them and work out what's up. I've notified the original author. [[User:Shimgray|Shimgray]] | [[User talk:Shimgray|talk]] | 00:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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== Penis?? == |
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Why is there pictures of Penis's on this article. its vandalism, but I don't see how to take if off. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/67.165.21.52|67.165.21.52]] ([[User talk:67.165.21.52|talk]]) 02:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned --> |
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:See [[#Protection?]] above. - [[User:BanyanTree|Banyan]][[User talk:BanyanTree|Tree]] 03:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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== Nice article == |
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I enjoyed reading this article and learned a lot. The Byzantine history was interesting. Just a few comments: (1) The map showing the current regions of geographical Macedonia ([[:Image:Europe_Balkans_Macedonia_geo.jpg]]) - the Serbian part is not easy to see - it is probably too small to show up at this scale. Can this be clarified somehow? (2) I followed a link to [[Macedonian Question]], and boy, does that article need work. Do those who made this article so great want to tackle that one? :-) Oh, and this 'terminology' phrasing for the article is a good idea. Co-incidentially, a few hours before I read this article, I had suggested this for [[black people (terminology)]], and this kind of focused treatment of a subject does seem to help avoid some forms on controversies. Since I see Aldux and Septe-whatever (sorry, still can't spell your name) are around here, do they know how the Romans referred to black people such as [[Nubians]]? [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] 00:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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Someone help!!! I can't find the source of that obscene image at the very top of the article!! |
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Geekler <small>[[Wikipedia:Segway Geeks|A Segway Geek]]</small> 01:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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Can someone please unlock this so we can get rid of the obscene images all over the article? [[User:74.119.23.212|74.119.23.212]] 01:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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:Unlocked. '''If this article is vandalised but you cannot see where the vandalism is in the Wikitext, <big>please check [[Template:Macedonia intro]] also</big> - it is transcluded at the beginning of the page and contains the Macedonia map.''' <tt>[[User talk:Awyong Jeffrey Mordecai Salleh|Kimchi]].[[WP:SG!|sg]]</tt> 01:36, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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It took WAY too long to get rid of the vandalism for a feature article, no one seemed to do anything. Just as a side point, all I did was delete a space and then space it again, that got rid of the pictures apparently. |
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:There was actually no vandalism on this page. Apparantly one of the templates on the page was the one causing the trouble. And it takes a long time to go through all the templates. [[User:Gdo01|Gdo01]] 02:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
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::It was in [[:Template:LCC]]. <font color="DarkGray">...</font> [[User:discospinster|<font color="DarkOrange">'''disco'''</font><font color="DarkOliveGreen">'''spinster'''</font>]] <sub>[[User talk:discospinster|'''<font color="DarkGray">talk</font>''']]</sub> 03:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 06:28, 18 May 2024
Macedonia (terminology) is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 8, 2006. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page
Cyberbot II has detected that page contains external links that have either been globally or locally blacklisted. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed, or are highly innappropriate for Wikipedia. This, however, doesn't necessarily mean it's spam, or not a good link. If the link is a good link, you may wish to request whitelisting by going to the request page for whitelisting. If you feel the link being caught by the blacklist is a false positive, or no longer needed on the blacklist, you may request the regex be removed or altered at the blacklist request page. If the link is blacklisted globally and you feel the above applies you may request to whitelist it using the before mentioned request page, or request it's removal, or alteration, at the request page on meta. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. The whitelisting process can take its time so once a request has been filled out, you may set the invisible parameter on the tag to true. Please be aware that the bot will replace removed tags, and will remove misplaced tags regularly.
Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:
- http://macedonia.cjb.net/
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If you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact User:Cyberpower678 and ask him to program me with more info.
From your friendly hard working bot.—cyberbot II NotifyOnline 18:04, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
- The link is now dead, so I removed the passage that contains it, as will as the following sentence. Both cite web sites that d not have a neutral point of view and therefore cannot be used as reliable sources. Andreas (T) 22:46, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Many unsourced sentences and paragraphs. I'm not sure the last two sections ("Names in the languages of the region" and "Terminology by group") are relevant in an encyclopedia article. "Terminology by group" may be WP:OR ("Certain terms are in use by these groups as outlined below. Any denial of self-identification by any side, or any attribution of Macedonia related terms by third parties to the other side, can be seen as highly offensive.")
The following maps are unsourced on Commons (and often of poor quality), which is an issue given how contentious the topic is:
- File:HistMac.gif
- File:LocationMacedonia-ROMAN-z.png (unless unrv.com is a "highly reliable source"?)
- File:LocationMacedonia-BYZ-1-z.png
- File:LocationMacedonia-OTT-2-z.png
- File:Borders of Macedonia according authors (1843-1927).png
- File:Europe Balkans Macedonia geo.jpg
- File:LocationMacedonia-HEL-2-z.png
The article mentions a source in one caption (Wilkinson, H. R. (1951). Maps and Politics: a Review of the Ethnographic Cartography of Macedonia. Liverpool: Liverpool University Press. pp. (a) p. 1, (b) pp. 2–4, 99, 121 ff., (c) p. 120, (d) pp. 4, 99, 137, (e) pp. 2, 4. LCC DR701.M3 W5.) but I don't have access to it and I don't know what (a), (b), (c), (d), and (e) are. A455bcd9 (talk) 12:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC)