fix |
Keithbates51 (talk | contribs) |
||
Line 146: | Line 146: | ||
[[User:Keithbates51|Keithbates51]] ([[User talk:Keithbates51|talk]]) 23:03, 22 November 2012 (UTC) |
[[User:Keithbates51|Keithbates51]] ([[User talk:Keithbates51|talk]]) 23:03, 22 November 2012 (UTC) |
||
:Permission is irrelevant. Wikipedia servers are located in the United states and as such [[Wikipedia:COPYRIGHT#Linking_to_copyrighted_works|Linking to copyrighted works]], ''Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of [[contributory infringement]] in the United States'' ([[Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry]]). Answer; [[WP:ELNEVER|No, and quit asking]].--[[User:Hu12|Hu12]] ([[User talk:Hu12|talk]]) 00:17, 23 November 2012 (UTC) |
:Permission is irrelevant. Wikipedia servers are located in the United states and as such [[Wikipedia:COPYRIGHT#Linking_to_copyrighted_works|Linking to copyrighted works]], ''Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of [[contributory infringement]] in the United States'' ([[Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry]]). Answer; [[WP:ELNEVER|No, and quit asking]].--[[User:Hu12|Hu12]] ([[User talk:Hu12|talk]]) 00:17, 23 November 2012 (UTC) |
||
You say 'quit asking', but I only restated my question about the Stewart Home link because you didn't respond first time I asked. I thank you for your help, but a more polite manner to someone volunteering their time would be appreciated. |
|||
I've contacted Vittore again and we are both still confused as to why Wiki pages about other art movements contain many more External links than we've suggested - Abstract Expressionism 18, Dada 10. We request that a mere three be reinstated, we feel these are the most relevant and informative - |
|||
William S Wilson's article fills in some fascinating background material to Ray Johnson's original Mail art practice: |
|||
* [http://www.warholstars.org/warhol/warhol1/andy/warhol/articles/wilson/ray/johnson.html Ray Johnson and New York Correspondance School by William S. Wilson 1966] |
|||
You already suggested that John Held Jr's listing of Mail art publications held at MOMA could be useful, we agree: |
|||
* [http://research.moma.org/mailart/ Museum of Modern Art (MoMA) - Mail Art Periodicals – Collected by John Held Jr.] |
|||
This YouTube video is a most eloquent explanation of the 'heart and soul' of Mail art: |
|||
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rO0ireLnLOg Mail Art History – Reshak Nairb] |
|||
[[User:Keithbates51|Keithbates51]] ([[User talk:Keithbates51|talk]]) 07:30, 23 November 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 07:30, 23 November 2012
Additions and deletions by George Kasey (Heartcalm22), 30 & 31 July 2012
Vittore Baroni and Keith Bates have reverted the Wikipedia Mail Art page to the version as of 7 June 2012 to remove the additions and erasures made by George Kasey posting as Heartcalm22.
We have both practised Mail Art for over 30 years and have never seen George Kasey's work in any mail art show or project.
Although the Mail Art Wikipedia page mentions Ray Johnson and inspirational Fluxus artists, the article steers clear of mentioning any mailartists since the rise of the movement for fear of appearing biased. We decided not to include any list of famous or notable mailartists, not only for reasons of impartiality but also so as not to suggest that there might be central characters or 'stars' in mail art. The naming of George Kasey is therefore totally incongruous to the spirit of the page, even if he were a well-known figure within the movement.
George Kasey removed the entire Bibliography section featuring works that have been meticulously chosen and added to over the last two years. He also removed almost all of the External Links that have again been carefully chosen for their relevance to the subject. Furthermore, he added self-promotional References that link to his own web sites.
Vittore Baroni and Keith Bates
Keithbates51 (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Permission for Illustrations
Hello, The images I have uploaded to Wiki to accompany the new MAIL ART entry are pieces of Mail Art which have been given freely and intended for exhibition in myriad locations including display online. It is the nature of Mail Art. Works are sent as a gift, and implicit in that is the permission (indeed, the expectation) for the receiver to exhibit the work 'in the flesh' and/or display it on websites and blogs. All of the pieces I have uploaded are from the archives of myself (a mailartist for 30 years) or Mail Art historian, Vittore Baroni, all of the works have been gifted with the intention to have them shown.
I am nevertheless contacting again the artists whose works I have uploaded, asking them to submit their permissions directly to you. I understand you have received several of these already.
Where this becomes a problem is when artists have died and have no heirs to contact. This is the case with Norman Solomon who died in 2000. His piece – a xerox mail art piece on the reverse of a personal letter to myself (quite visible on the scan), was his gift to me in 1996 for a mail art show and I hope you will accept permission for use from myself, the person to whom the gift was made. There is no-one else to authorize Wiki use.
Keith Bates Keithbates51 (talk) 07:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC) keith@k-type.com
Cleopatra
Might state old maybe-joke saying that the first mail-art was when Cleopatra had herself delivered in a rolled-up carpet. --Daniel C. Boyer 15:31 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The Cleopatra thing is a light-hearted intro, but Mail Art began in the 1960s, what relevance has all the 19th century references? The article should really begin with Ray Johnson, or possibly Futurist experiments with mailing art. Keithbates51 (talk) 06:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
What is Mail art
What is Mail-Art for you?
Please state your name & answer:
This article should be a point of entry for anyone interested in Mail Art. Instead, it is patchy at best, at worst it is confusing, inaccurate and off-putting. The whole history section is NOT the history of Mail Art. Keith Bates, 3 August 2010
First paragraphs
First paragraphs are inaccurate as they are confused between first-day covers with cachets and postal stationary. --Daniel C. Boyer 15:28, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)
And what relevance does any of this have to Mail Art, the movement and practice 1960 - 2010? Keithbates51 (talk) 06:36, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Wired Return to Sender
It would seem to me that Wired magazine's "Return to Sender" section would be an expression of mail art. Someone might want to work that in, or maybe it goes better somewhere else. —User:Mulad (talk) 02:41, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
- Uhh.. no, I'm not sure what you're talking about here, "Return to Sender" is common terminology in the postal industry unrelated to Mail Art, for all I know, the section in Wired has probably less to do with Mail Art and more to do with answering fanmail, possibly?--Mofomojo 06:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
"Return to Sender" is where people send in objects to Wired, and the best ones get published. It is definately mail art! Also, I added the link: mailart.info which is also mail art. it was deleted. it does not "promote" anyone. It is just a plain ol' Picasa album that shows about 3 years of correspondance. [-able][1]
CMA acronym
There are a sudden abundance of mentions of CMA and comparisons with ATCs, but nowhere does it was what CMA actually stands for - any ideas? MA are obviously Mail Art, but the C could stand for just about anything - collective? collectable? card?
Oops, and that was written by me, sheridan 15:19, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
I've been participating in Mail Art for 30 years and I've never heard the term CMA before reading this unrepresentative, inaccurate and far too narrow article. Keith Bates, 3 August 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.103.177 (talk) 10:44, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
MAIL ART NETWORKING
Hello to all Mail Artists and those interested in Mail Art; and hello again to all those Mail Artists with whom I corresponded between 1994 and 2001. It's been a long time since cLASSwAR Karaoke prowled the network. I am, though, not back,as it were. Life has moved on and I am occupied,very much so,with making soundart, improvised experimental music, and with my little blog at http://murmurists.blogspot.com - check out please, if you like. I still think fondly of the network; and do hope that the Internet has not wholly replaced the postal system as a way for like-mindsto come together in some way. The exchange of actual objects may protect it to some extent I suppose! Anyway, to those who knew me, I got the PhD in Mail Art. Thing is, I put the thing together using very outdated software on a very old AppleMac - which is now dead! I do not even have a copy of it myself! It is, however, soon to be available via the British Library, for those who are interested. I still think what I said about Mail Art was valid and well-researched, and is likely, still, to be if not the best then amongst the best researches into the subject. See for yourself if you will. Enjoy! It was a labour of love, and nearly killed me with the amount of work involved! Love to you all. And if anyone knows how to edit the info on this particular bit of the Wikipedia, then, humbly, I ask to have my name - Dov - inclded in the listing of Mail Artists! Best wishes, Dov / cLASSwAR Karaoke x x x x x
FREE trade?
The sixth paragraph states: "As an art form the early genre produced low- and high-minded works ranging from the comic and satirical through commercial and industrial advertising to the promotion of social causes such as free trade, world peace and brotherhood, and the abolition of slavery." "Free" trade doesn't seem typically stated as part of the same agenda as world peace and brotherhood, etc. Might this mean "fair trade"? 68.35.112.165 06:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Pruning links and artists
I just cut the list of artists in half, removing the red links. Sorry if this steps on your toes, but it was seriously getting out of control. In my opinion -- if you want on the page, get an article and make it stick. The list of links deserves a serious pruning as well, I'll support anyone willing to dive in. See WP:EL. All the best -- send stickers! ∴ here…♠ 22:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Ironically mail art allows a wide participation. If you went by the numbers under this entry you'd come to the conclusion that the number of artists who use this medium is that of a small book clubLahtzu (talk) 20:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
HELP! - THIS IS AN EMBARRASSMENT This article on Mail Art does not reflect reality. Most mailartists accept the importance of Ray Johnson (the Father of Mail Art), is he mentioned in the article? It's pointless having such a big history going back to 19th century, mail art is a movement that started in the 1960s With Ray Johnson's New York Correspondance School (sik) To devote such a large section to ATCs is ludicrous, they are a tiny part of Mail Art, much less a part than Artistamps or rubberstamps which barely feature. What is CMA? I've participated in Mail Art for almost 30 years and never heard the term CMA apart from in this article! What is all that guff about envelope sizes and mechanical printing proccesses? It's all totally irrelevant. I've just tried adding some of the most important mailartists of recent decades and some of the most active now, my suggestions have immediately been cut. So you still have a poorly pared down, unrepresentative article about a vibrant, important, democratic art movement. Name more names, not less! Instead of pruning, this article should be more comprehensive to reflect the global, inclusive nature of Mail Art. It should also give new, would-be mailartists some real points of reference and needs to include a host of links to active mail art websites providing better histories and information about current Mail Art projects. Why not ask Vittore Baroni to write a proper article. He's one of the most important mailartists of the last 40 years (and a journalist) and even he doesn't even get a mention. Or ask former librarian John Held Jr., another giant of the movement who is totally ignored - he's also a comprehensive writer about Mail Art. Keithbates51 (talk) 06:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Odd tangent
As one of the mailartists in Los Angeles in the early 1980s, I find it strange that the actual process of mailart (sending postcards and other objects through the US Postal Service as performance art) gets two sentences, while the rise of personal computers, the internet and using a printer to produce envelopes gets four or five paragraphs.
Also, the computer tangent comes prior to the two relevant sentences. The overall impression of the article is that mailart is primarily a phenomenon of the digital age, when this is emphatically not the case. The entire history of the movement from the 50s through the 80s is essentially ignored. I am not qualified to write the history myself as I have not been active in twenty-five years, but do feel that the omission is important and should be noted. Perhaps some of the old-school mailartists could contribute their expertise. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.177.163.235 (talk) 03:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC).
- This article needs serious reworking overall, for the reasons you point out and more. Freshacconci 15:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Proposed merge
I'm thinking this article can be stand alone. There's an extensive history to mail art which warrents an article. The current version needs major work, but I don't feel a merge is the solution. Freshacconci 16:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
I agree Mail-interviews has nothing to do with mail art see Envelope collective --Kylehamilton 00:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- The merge proposes that Mail-interviews be merged into this article Mail art. It absolutely should! Both Envelope collective and Mail-interviews appear to be directly related to Mail art. Mail-interviews appears to be a specific work, or collection of works, within the field. If it is unrelated, why would that article begin: ...the body of which are now recognized as an influential contribution in the field of mail art. Mail-interviews does not appear to warrent its own article without further development. Unless expanded, the options are deletion or merging, likely into Mail art. ∴ here…♠ 21:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
The concept of the mail-interviews is quite specific. I wouldn't consider it mail-art, but a large research project to discover the essence of communication (mail) as a medium in art. Merge of not. The Mail-Art article needs work anyway. To many stories are not included and the general line is somehow lost.
Ruud Janssen (see www.iuoma.org for contact-details)
- Thanks for your comments Ruud, please do jump in and help improve the article! ∴ here…♠ 01:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Punning
Would a round-robin collaboration involving armour designs be chain-mail art? Jackiespeel (talk) 15:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Deletion of References to 'Hairmail' and Astroturf + important External Links
The specific references to 'hairmail' and 'astroturf' have no place in a general account of the media and techniques used by mailartists. These materials/actions were certainly not common or well-known amongst networkers. The External Links section includes only carefully chosen sites that will add to the understanding of the subject, it's been a useful additional resource for two years, please don't delete it. Keithbates51 (talk) 14:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is WP:NOT supposed to serve as a directory of external links, and such links must comply with out guidelines. Please don't restore these links. - MrOllie (talk) 15:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
In undoing my alterations, you restored the inappropriate references to marketing (Mail Art is not about marketing) 'hairmail' and astroturf, which I presume you didn't intend to do.
Most of the External Links had been in place since we wrote the entry and have provided useful additional sources of research. To delete all but the Open Directory link seems excessive and inconsistent, can we at least restore some of the most useful? In November 2010 you only objected to the most blog-like links like the Artistamp Museum, Mailart Forum and Lutz Wohlrab's site, and allowed the others to stand. They've stood for two years, we'd appreciate restoring at least some of them!
Keith Bates and Vittore Baroni
Keithbates51 (talk) 17:28, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
External links - any suggestions?
Mr Ollie has pointed out that 'External links are meant to be a very limited list of only the best links' and has suggested proposing what Vittore and I regard as the most important here on the Talk page, allowing others to suggest worthy links:
- A Brief History of Postal Art – Mark Bloch
- Mail Art History – Reshak Nairb
- Ray Johnson and New York Correspondance School by William S. Wilson 1966
- Mail Art at the Open Directory Project
- Mailartists at the Open Directory Project
- Museum of Modern Art (MoMA) - Mail Art Periodicals – Collected by John Held Jr.
- IUOMA – The International Union Of Mail Artists – moderated by Ruud Janssen, The Netherlands
- (mis)reading mailart – Matt Ferranto
- [http ://www.keithbates.co.uk/thesis_michael_lumb.pdf Mail Art 1955–1995 – Michael Lumb (University of East Anglia thesis, 1997)]
Keithbates51 (talk) 08:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- I've removed stewarthomesociety.org from that list per WP:LINKVIO as their site states ; "Copyright © is problematic. Some rights reserved. Contact for clarification.". Also de-linked keithbates.co.uk per WP:NOPAY. Youtube and personal sites are of low value and fail the external links policy. the MoMA link may contain some sources to use to verify some visual content, however I see no pressing or compelling reason to add any of these. WP:NOT#REPOSITORY. Wikipedia is optimized for readers over editors, External links are generaly unhelpful to readers, nor do they verify content or add content or meaning to the encyclopedia. Yes, the internet is full of interesting material, but Wikipedia is not a directory to that content.
- Unlike Wikipedia, DMOZ is a web directory specifically designed to categorize and list all Internet sites; if you've not already gotten your sites listed there, I encourage you to do so -- it's a more appropriate venue for your links than our wikis. Their web address: http://www.dmoz.org/.--Hu12 (talk) 16:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
Yet most good pages do offer links for interested Wiki readers, I certainly find them useful - the Dada entry has 10 External links, Abstract expressionism 18 – so these are a modest selection of links by comparison, sites that Vittore Baroni and I think are most useful to interested readers, surely there's no harm in adding relatively few. The Open Directory are indeed two of the list. Michael Lumb's essay that I put on my webspace is an excellent and relevant University thesis that's not available anywhere else online, 'mail art and money don't mix', so it's not a paid placement, is it still no go? If I contact Stewart Home and request copyright clearance, would that enable you to reconsider allowing that link? Keithbates51 (talk) 13:53, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
In the absence of a reply from Hu12 or any further comments, I'll just add the eight remaining External links which Vittore and I regard as enriching. I'd still like to restore the link to Stewart Home's article which Hu12 removed, and also the link to Michael Lumb's university thesis which is not a commercial link. Can anyone help with this? Keithbates51 (talk) 12:47, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
- A lack of response isn't implicit permission to continue editing to a version which has been rejected and reverted by multiple editors. The fact that others haven't replied perhaps means no one cares. A contentious fact does not become uncontentious by virtue of repetition. Perhaps in web forums you can get away with repeating something until nobody cares enough to contradict you any more; on Wikipedia, that is unacceptable. Sure, the internet is full of good material, but Wikipedia is not a directory to that content. Guidelines such as WP:NOT#REPOSITORY and WP:COI are accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Again you pushing for inclusion of your website via the Lumb pdf. I have found a conflict free accessible copy that doesn't require external applications or plugins and have added Michael Lumb's university thesis to the External links. Links to Stewart Homes, as explained to you above are a WP:LINKVIO and wont be considered. Continuing to push, solicit or further attempts to add Stewart Homes (or similar) on wikipedia, a block may be necessary. --Hu12 (talk) 19:36, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
It's not true that these links have been rejected by multiple editors, they (and others) been part of this page since Vittore Baroni and myself wrote the original copy in 2010. It's only recently that Mr Ollie objected to some of the links that he'd hitherto not objected to! He suggested using this Talk page to give others the chance to suggest links or comment on the existing ones. Thank you for restoring Michael Lumb's university thesis, but I certainly was NOT 'pushing for inclusion' of a link to my website, I'd hosted the thesis only because the old Fortune City link was dead! Today I restored the eight links that Vittore and I feel are most important because I did not realise your comments equated to a ban. In view of the fact that other pages on art movements include far more External links than the pared down eight we are suggesting, Im asking you to reconsider. I did NOT re-link to Stewart Home's chapter precisely because of the copyright issue you raised, I'd asked you if I could contact him for permission and you didn't reply. So I repeat, can I contact Stewart Home for copyright clearance, it's a good, relevant chapter from a seminal book about Mail art. Keithbates51 (talk) 23:03, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
- Permission is irrelevant. Wikipedia servers are located in the United states and as such Linking to copyrighted works, Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States (Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry). Answer; No, and quit asking.--Hu12 (talk) 00:17, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
You say 'quit asking', but I only restated my question about the Stewart Home link because you didn't respond first time I asked. I thank you for your help, but a more polite manner to someone volunteering their time would be appreciated. I've contacted Vittore again and we are both still confused as to why Wiki pages about other art movements contain many more External links than we've suggested - Abstract Expressionism 18, Dada 10. We request that a mere three be reinstated, we feel these are the most relevant and informative - William S Wilson's article fills in some fascinating background material to Ray Johnson's original Mail art practice:
You already suggested that John Held Jr's listing of Mail art publications held at MOMA could be useful, we agree:
This YouTube video is a most eloquent explanation of the 'heart and soul' of Mail art: