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The Gateway Pundit published a story 3 days ago that a "creditable" witness "has conclusive evidence that will bring Rich’s killers to justice within a month". The story states that "two employees of the United States government killed Seth". The story states they were an "ATF agent and the DEA agent". Is the Gateway Pundit considered to be a reliable publication by Wikipedia editors? [[User:StreetSign|StreetSign]] ([[User talk:StreetSign|talk]]) 16:02, 12 July 2018 (UTC) |
The Gateway Pundit published a story 3 days ago that a "creditable" witness "has conclusive evidence that will bring Rich’s killers to justice within a month". The story states that "two employees of the United States government killed Seth". The story states they were an "ATF agent and the DEA agent". Is the Gateway Pundit considered to be a reliable publication by Wikipedia editors? [[User:StreetSign|StreetSign]] ([[User talk:StreetSign|talk]]) 16:02, 12 July 2018 (UTC) |
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Update: I see that the "creditable witness" did not come forward in person. He phoned anonymously to a press conference. So there is no credibility. [[User:StreetSign|StreetSign]] ([[User talk:StreetSign|talk]]) 16:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:25, 12 July 2018
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Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2018
there is a "on March 2018" that should be "on March 2018" 104.35.236.49 (talk) 10:20, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Not done - This request makes no sense.- MrX 🖋 11:44, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
- Done Looking at the edit history it's clear they meant to write that it should be "in March 2018." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:20, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
Which of These are Valid References?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Which of these are valid references?
The Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/were-seth-richs-parents-stop-politicizing-our-sons-murder/2017/05/23/164cf4dc-3fee-11e7-9869-bac8b446820a_story.html?utm_term=.c5b01406666e"Our beloved son Seth Rich was gunned down in the early hours of July 10, 2016, in his Washington, D.C., neighborhood of Bloomingdale. On the day he was murdered, Seth was excited about a new job he had been offered on Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign. Seth had dedicated his life to public service, and he told us that he wanted to work on the campaign’s effort to expand voter participation because he loved our country dearly and believed deeply in the promise of democratic engagement. Seth had been walking around, calling friends, family and his girlfriend, pondering the broader picture of what the job change would mean."
CNN:
"Before Rich died, he had been offered a new job on Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign"
reference: https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/24/us/seth-rich-dnc-wikileaks-theories/index.html
There is also a video interview of Seth Rich's father clearly showing him saying:
"He had just been asked to join the Clinton campaign, four days before he was murdered." (and) "He had just found out that they wanted him."
Live video of Seth Rich's father speaking:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3741754/Father-murdered-DNC-staffer-reveals-son-join-Hillary-Clinton-presidential-campaign-punching-hole-ugly-rumor-Wikileaks-source.html
The paradox is that Daily Mail is not considered by Wikipedia to be a reliable source, but it is the only one with the video showing Seth Rich's father revealing what the campaign has not acknowledged. The other two sources (CNN and Washington Post) quote him in writing.
Are any of them valid references? Is it permissible to discuss them on the Talk page? StreetSign (talk) 14:58, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- All but the daily mail are valid. Please make at least a token effort to familiarize yourself with our policies and practices before asking such off-topic, generalized questions here. The relevant policy in this particular case is WP:IRS. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:14, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- MjolnirPants is correct. A video published by The Daily Mail may be used as a primary source. However I suspect that whatever you wish to use that video for wouldn't belong in the article. Why don't you propose some content? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:10, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Dr.Fleischman, StreetSign has already had this argument and been shot down by the wider community, as well as watchers of this page. See here and here. I'm sure you'll remember our friend here once you've started on the latter of those two links. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it.
- Ah yes, I didn't realize this was the same person. StreetSign, I suggest you drop the stick. It's time to move on to something else. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:53, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
- Dr.Fleischman, StreetSign has already had this argument and been shot down by the wider community, as well as watchers of this page. See here and here. I'm sure you'll remember our friend here once you've started on the latter of those two links. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it.
I thought it was best to find out if the sources themselves were acceptable, before going any further. StreetSign (talk) 02:05, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter whether they're good references. This has already been explained to you. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 02:16, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
My goal is to propose an accurate addition to the article that is acceptable. StreetSign (talk) 02:37, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- You're missing the point. The consensus is that the content you want added isn't acceptable because it's not sufficiently noteworthy, and its inclusion creates a non-neutral presentation. None of that depends on the accuracy of the information. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 02:52, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes. You have described the situation concisely. Any addition to the article would need to be both noteworthy and neutral. Identifying accurate sources by Wikipedia standards is one step in that process. StreetSign (talk) 11:48, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- What you are doing here is akin to drawing a stick figure in preparation for a an exhibition on the human body at the Louvre: Yes, you fulfilled one of the requirements, but your content is still shit. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:55, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
I do not understand the rude behavior. StreetSign (talk) 17:15, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- It's just MjolnirPants being MjolnirPants. I think we can end this discussion now that we're all in agreement about the sources. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:27, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
Lede Needs Balance
Fully 2/3rds of the text of the Lede is dedicated to debunking the "right wing conspiracy theories", and virtually the entire of the body is about the conspiracy theories and their debunkment. But buried in the body is the fact that the Rich families' own publicist found a "lead" on the murder that points to Russians, which lends credibility to the theory that this was not simply a standard grade robbery. Also the fact that nothing was apparently stolen from Rich supports the idea that he was killed for reasons other than (non-political) robbery. I believe the Lede is at least twice as long as it should be, given that, from an "overview" perspective, there really isn't much to say. Rich was not noteworthy, except for the fact that he was killed and the conspiracy theories. I think two or three sentences for each side of the issue (conspiracy vs. not conspiracy) should be mentioned in the Lede, plus whatever other information is appropriate, and all of the other information regarding the theories, their condemnations, "fake news" etc... should be put into the body. The whole situation is a mass of details, but the Lede at least should be short and to the point. Most of what is currently included in the Lede should be moved elsewhere.
If you analyze the article on a sentence-by-sentence basis, and classify each sentence as either A) "Information about the Murder of Seth Rich" (the article's title), or B) "Information about the conspiracy theories surrounding the murder of Seth Rich", you'll find that easily 90% of the sentences are best categorized as "B" and not "A". The article should clearly differentiate between "A" and "B", and not mash them all up into the current mess that it's in right now.
Also in the Lede it talks about "conspiracies" as a plural, and then later refers to "conspiracy" as if there is only one, which I think should be resolved. If 90% of the article is going to be about the conspiracy theories, then at the very least they should be presented in a more logical and structured form. Example, Fox News' participation should have it's own separate section. In it's current form, the Article seems to convey the message that 1) Seth Rich was murdered either for unknown reasons, or a robbery, and 2) Anyone that believes there was some kind of a conspiracy is wrong, and believes in "fake news". It reads more like a narrative that condemns conspiracy theorists, and not like an encyclopedic article about "The Murder of Seth Rich". Note I'm not advocating that anything be excluded, but rather the information in the article needs to be restructured and clarified so as to differentiate between the murder, and the conspiracy theories surrounding it.2605:6000:6947:AB00:D54F:D719:F9A0:A888 (talk) 09:02, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Fully 2/3rds of the text of the Lede is dedicated to debunking the "right wing conspiracy theories", and virtually the entire of the body is about the conspiracy theories and their debunkment.
That is because the conspiracy theories are what made this crime notable.But buried in the body is the fact that the Rich families' own publicist found a "lead" on the murder that points to Russians, which lends credibility to the theory that this was not simply a standard grade robbery.
It would be to your advantage to read the debunkings instead of merely complaining about them.I think two or three sentences for each side of the issue (conspiracy vs. not conspiracy) should be mentioned in the Lede,
See False balance. We do not give equal weight to conspiracy theories. Also see Guide to addressing bias for more about the weaknesses of "telling both sides".The whole situation is a mass of details, but the Lede at least should be short and to the point.
The purpose of the lede is to define the subject and summarize the body. The first sentence is used to that purpose. The second sentence points out that it was never solved; one of the most important points about the subject. Following that, the next two paragraphs summarize the narrative of events surrounding the murder, highlighting only the most important details. That is exactly what a lede should be.- Now, we have a policy here called Assume good faith which I hold to very tightly. However, you should understand that AGF is not a suicide pact and using common sense is one of the core pillars of this project. So while I'm assuming your motivations are to improve this project, I'm not required or even expected to ignore the obvious due to those assumptions.
- With that in mind, it is quite clear to me that you are suggesting that we re-work the article to give more credence to the conspiracy theories. That is not going to happen, primarily because the conspiracy theories are complete and utter bullshit. The reason this article reads to you like "a narrative that condemns conspiracy theorists" is because most people marginally familiar with this subject are familiar with the bullshit, and the primary duty of an encyclopedia is to inform. To that end, informing our readers about what commonly-repeated claims about the subject are false and explaining what those claims are, why they are false, who invented them, where and when they appeared; and how they spread. Recall that the conspiracy theories are what made this crime notable; they are thus not unimportant, merely wrong. In order to be a good encyclopedia, we must then give all pertinent facts, and emphasize them according to their weight in the reliable sources. I hope this helps. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:17, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- The murder stuff falls squarely into fringe theory territory and must be treated as such. This means, we must avoid the false balance you're proposing. A comment from a political lobbyist about an unspecified lead is less than evidence. It would be excluded if it wasn't the reason why the Riches repudiated him. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:51, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Allow me to join this discussion. What do you mean by "The murder stuff falls squarely into fringe theory territory and must be treated as such." What "murder stuff" are you referring to? StreetSign (talk) 21:02, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- The theory that Rich's murder was related to politics. Maybe I should have said "political murder stuff." --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
OK. The murder remains unsolved. StreetSign (talk) 22:13, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, and the political theory has been debunked, so it must be described as such. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
The Gateway Pundit published a story 3 days ago that a "creditable" witness "has conclusive evidence that will bring Rich’s killers to justice within a month". The story states that "two employees of the United States government killed Seth". The story states they were an "ATF agent and the DEA agent". Is the Gateway Pundit considered to be a reliable publication by Wikipedia editors? StreetSign (talk) 16:02, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Update: I see that the "creditable witness" did not come forward in person. He phoned anonymously to a press conference. So there is no credibility. StreetSign (talk) 16:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC)