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==RS that explicitly say that the Okanagan does not include the Sonoran== |
==RS that explicitly say that the Okanagan does not include the Sonoran== |
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Here Skookum. Please list the [[WP:RS]] that directly counter the mountains of sources that say the Okanagan includes a northern extension of Sonoran. Now the cites should mention the Okanagan and directly debunk it because cites that just talk about the Mexican, Southwest extension of the Sonoran could just be suffering from omission and/or incompleteness. Otherwise, I'm still leaning towards a compromise using JHunterJ's link in the article along with the cites that describe the area as part of the Sonora and then the alternative description. [[User:Agne27 |Agne]][[Special:Contributions/Agne27|<sup>Cheese</sup>]]/[[User Talk:Agne27|<sup>Wine</sup>]] 22:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC) |
Here Skookum. Please list the [[WP:RS]] that directly counter the mountains of sources that say the Okanagan includes a northern extension of Sonoran. Now the cites should mention the Okanagan and directly debunk it because cites that just talk about the Mexican, Southwest extension of the Sonoran could just be suffering from omission and/or incompleteness. Otherwise, I'm still leaning towards a compromise using JHunterJ's link in the article along with the cites that describe the area as part of the Sonora and then the alternative description. [[User:Agne27 |Agne]][[Special:Contributions/Agne27|<sup>Cheese</sup>]]/[[User Talk:Agne27|<sup>Wine</sup>]] 22:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC) |
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:Good GRIEF! Have you not read what I just said, or just dissed it as 2000kb and [[WP:Did not read]] because you don't CARE what Geog of Washington, Geog of Idaho, Geog of Utah etc and scads of ecoregion and landform pages say - or DO NOT SAY?? You're asking me to prove a negative statement, with sources saying "the Okanagan is not part of the Sonoran Desert". Your sources saying that "thet Okanagan IS part of the Sonoran Desert" ultimately ALL trace to the same (unreliable) source, namely the press kits of the Okanagan Wine Region, Nk'Mip Cellars, and the Osoyoos Tourism Board. If you wish I'll spend the next couple of hours copying ALL the cites on the various state geography, ecoregion and landform articles which do NOT say anything of the kind, AND NEVER SHOULD. Your solution? - change those pages to agree with a Canadian wine regions bad geography-cum-propaganda. Get a grip.[[User:Skookum1|Skookum1]] ([[User talk:Skookum1|talk]]) 23:12, 8 January 2011 (UTC) |
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Sonoran Desert refs
We obviously don't need to add all these WP:RS to the article but some additional refs that talk about the Sonoran Desert extension in the southern Okanagan. And again, there are many, many more refs we can use if need be. AgneCheese/Wine 08:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- they're NOT WP:RS; see below.Skookum1 (talk) 10:45, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Spokesman Review (news paper) "Equally exciting are the few remaining pockets of the northernmost extremity of the Sonoran Desert, which runs all the way through the United States into Mexico. To show off the desert's beauty and warn of its rapid disappearance, the Osoyoos Desert Society has acquired a 67-acre site with more than 100 plants and 300 invertebrates deemed at risk."
- Toronto Star "The grasslands and bald hills outside the town of Osoyoos are an extension of the Sonoran Desert that runs as far south as Mexico and creeps north to form Canada's only arid desert."
- USA Today "The Okanagan area has nearly 40 courses and has been one of the fastest-growing golf destinations in Canada the past decade. It's surprisingly one of the warmest spots in the country, a northern extension of the Sonoran Desert, and the golf season is long."
- Yakima Herald-Republic (news paper-PPV) "... 40 miles or so of what begins as the Sonoran desert in Mexico..."
- Toronto Sun "That we have a flourishing wine industry taking root in the Sonoran Desert, which runs from the southern Okanagan to the northern tip of the Gulf of Mexico, is the kind of story that television crews assigned to do travel diaries of the Games is unlikely to overlook."
- Toronto Star "The dry, dusty location had everyone on the crew well aware of why real cowboys wore handkerchiefs and hats, says Stephen Heyges of Brightlight Pictures, the co-producers of the film. "This is the Sonoran Desert, which goes all the way from Mexico to B.C.," he says."
- Houston Chronicle "About 125 miles long, with Lake Okanagan for a lovely centerpiece, the valley constitutes the very northern tip of the Sonoran desert, which, of course, is what most constitutes most of West Texas."
- The Olympian "This northernmost extension of the Sonoran Desert runs through the traditional lands of the “Sylix” First Nations of the Okanagan Valley, home to sagebrush and antelope brush and rare critters such as burrowing owls that turn old badger dens into summer nurseries, pallid bats that hunt their prey on the ground, and yes, plenty of rattlesnakes."
- New York Times "This may be Canada, but we’re at the northernmost tip of the Sonoran Desert."
- Mexiadata (Wouldn't call this an RS by itself but the author is a writer for the Baja Times in Mexico and this is written from a Mexican, rather than Canadian viewpoint) "Another surprise for me was to discover that Canada’s premier wine country of Okanagan Valley, in British Columbia, is actually part of the Sonoran Desert, which starts in Mexico and extends through North America as the Great Basin. In fact, this premier wine growing region gets about the same annual rainfall as Valle de Guadalupe, in Baja California, but they have an abundance of water generated in the high, surrounding mountain ranges of the north."
- Google Scholar hits (many are PPV)
- ISHS Acta Horticulturae 451
- Canadian Journal of Environmental Education "...a visit to the geographical location of the road in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia. The particular beauty and ecosystems of this region of Canada, a continuation of the Sonoran Desert, with its fruit orchards, lakes, and vineyards, fertile, yet arid...."
- University of British Columbia-OKANAGAN WATER SYSTEMS "The land provided numerous root food resources as well as a multitude of berries that grew in the diverse ecosites found in the territorial boundaries of the Syilx. The ecosites range from semi-arid Sonoran desert areas to sub-Alpine mountain ranges."
- Incorporating Tourism Into the Local Economy Without Sacrificing the Character of the Community: Case Study of Oliver, British Columbia "At the northern edge of the Sonora Desert in the southern Okanagan Valley, Oliver lies a short distance north of the resort town of Osoyoos"
- University of Winnipeg - Projected Climate Change Impacts on Grape Growing in the Okanagan Valley, British Columbia, Canada "
- The Condor, Vol. 67
- Google book hits beyond travel books
- North American pinot noir By John Winthrop Haeger pg 104
- Knack Wine Basics: A Complete Illustrated Guide to Understanding.... By Alan Boehmer, Renée Comet pg 118
- Fruit Growing in the Okanagan Valley of British Columbia pg 155
- Indigenous women: the right to a voice by Diana Vinding pg 189
- British Columbia, the Pacific province by Colin J.B. Wood pg 83
- Last, but not least, the Royal BC Museum' Living Landscape's project (government bc.ca domain) "the northern edge of the Great Basin (also called the Sonoran or high desert, a sagebrush-dominated biome that runs from British Columbia to Baja California)"
Discussion
- the Royal BC Museum, despite its name, is NOT a BC government organization any more, it is in fact an American-owned corporation, often catering to the whims and p.r. machineries of various tourism boards. "bc.ca" is NOT a BC government domain, by the way, that's just BC's domain n general; and lots of now-private gofvernment agencies, formerly public, use gov.bc.ca, very misledingly. Tha the RBCM- or rather, a paper hosted on its Living Landscapes sub-site - is included in your list of "cites that say this is the Sonoran Desert", most of which are only replications of the Osoyoos Tourism Board/Nk'mip p.r. onslaught about this and all of which are NOT supported by academic geography just one look at the Sonoran Desert article will confirm that, and there is NO connection/equivalence between the Great Basin Desert OR the "high desert" (which is actually the Red Desert in Wyoming, and is also used to refer to parts of New Mexico); that's completely spurious and I don't care if the RBMC published that/ the Sonoran Desert, or any other desert, is NOT a "sagebrush-dominated biome, and it certainly does NOT come north of the Mojave or any REAL desert in between. The Columbia Plateau is not even part of the Great Basin, how the hell can Osoyoos be part of that if all of Washington and Oregon are NOT????? As for the travel articles and wine columns that repeat the LIES of the Osoyoos and Nk'mip p.r. people, they're just not reliable sources anything else. Osoyoos is shrub steppe just like the Gang Ranch area and the Kamloops Lake area, it's nothing special except in its own mind (and its endless torrent of p.r. spew). I'll repeat, for emphasis, that the Sonoran Desert does NOT extend north of California and Arizona, it is in fact delimited by the Colorado River; an the Great Basin Desert and the Owyhee Desert and the Mojave Desert and the Columbia Plateau are NOT part of it, period. See this map. Opus Vino and BC Wines can repeat the falsehood as much as they want it doest not make it true, and only serves to demonstrate that they are NOT reliable sources, and definitely not verifiable either - given academic geographers would scoff at this (unles paid handsomely by Nk'mip, as at least one was). The Sonoran Desert myth was invented two decades or more ago by local tourism types to play on another myth that the conquistadors had reached Osoyoos in search of El Dorado, but turned back; it's never been true....I shot off a letter to BC Wine tonight lambasting them for repeating this nonsense, and will take it up with the RBCM tomorrow about that paper; things published on Living Landscapes are often informative, often POV, and also often contain many errors, whether to do with history or with science as in this case. it's garbage, and you're just citing the repetition of the garbage that has permeated other publications BUT HAS NEVER BEEN TRUE, and never will be, no matter how often it's told and re-told and re-told. it's still a lie, but by repeating it, a la Goebbels, to try to make it true....but it's just not, period.Skookum1 (talk) 10:03, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- So the WP:RS policy should be chucked out the window? None of these are reliable sources because......you say so? So far only the link that JHunterJ has provided below is the only thing close to disputing the mountain of reliable sources that say other wise. I can see merit in including both those as compromise--the many reliable sources that place it in Sonoran and the desert.org link that offers the scrubland view. Then we can edit the Sonoran article link with more details on the disagreement (since obviously a wine article is not the best forum). That way both views are represented and we're not relying on "Because I said so WP:OR". AgneCheese/Wine 05:02, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm anything but OR, it's Osoyoos that has the OR and has too-widely circulated it....[post edit-conflict: They are NOT reliable sources if they are NOT TRUE. They all feed off the same press campaign, based in a tourist promotion and not relevant to academic geography. It's only in relation to the Osoyoos/Nk'mip "Desert" that you hear the claim that it's part of the Sonoran Desert, it's like citing wikiclones, endlessly repeating the same refrain based in the same bit of disinformation. Newspaper travel articles are not valid sources for geographic articles, especially when they contain blatnatly correct information. The aboriginal women article/book is clearly connected to Nk'mip/the OIB's p.r campaign, the environmental journal, like so many, contains bad geography - also based on Osoyoos' hype. The only possible compromise could be "the Osoyoos region in the South Okanagan of northern British Columbia claims to be the northern tip of the Sonoran Desert, but this is not supported by sources unrelated to that region" .... or something to that effect; it would look quite frankly ludicrous in the Sonoran Desert article, "Find me something that says "the Great Basin Desert is part of the Sonoran Desert" (i.e. from a publication discussing that area, with no relation to Canada - and I don't mean a Houston newspaper), find me something that says "The Columbia Plateau Desert is part of the Sonoran Desert", find me something that says "the Mohave Desert is part of the Sonoran Desert", find me something that says "The Sonoran Desert includes all the desert west of the Rockies and extends into Canada, ending at the town of Osoyoos. Drier areas farther north, though similar to the climate of Osoyoos, are defined by Osoyoos to be something else and not part of the Sonoran Desert. Find me something that says "the Columbia River flows through the Sonoran Desert". That Osoyoos, and the area's wine region publicists, have widely circulated the Sonoran Desert claim, it is not part of any regular academic literature and has no relevance to encyclopedic geography, except as a footnote that an incorrect assertion is made by a small Canadian town claiming that the Sonoran Desert extends there (and no further). Wine article after wine article and ecologists/botanists hired by the wineries in question (as I know to be the case, having worked for one of them and being told about it...), and promulgated by a tourism promotion that Osoyoos is "Canada's Only Desert" (and nowhere else is, even places drier and hotter - which haven't planted saguaro or century plant...if Lillooet planted some yucca or Joshua Tree, would it then be part of the Mojave??) - and repeated endlessly by travel writers adapting copy from motel guides (like the one here in my room, in fact), but having no basis in scientific or real academic sources (e.g. the US' own system of geographic classification - which draws the Sonoran Desert's boundary at the Colorado). Something that is untrue, no matter how widely repeated, is just not a reliable source. It certainly is NOT verifiable (you write the geography departments at Pullman, Boise, Wenatchee, Bend, Carson City, Vegas, Oroville - ask them if they are in the Sonoran Desert, ask them what the desert areas of the American West are called and what their boundaries are. Don't you see the point? All the copy you have cited related to material mentioning Osoyoos, they're all just riffing off the same non-fact, it doesn't make it true. In fact, it's quite probably -very probable - that some of those sources even adapted copy from earlier versions of the Wikipedia article and of the Nk'mip Desert article - which has been merged to the Okanagan Desert article and you will not it has the shrub-steppe category, NOT the desert category; add onto this that the Nk'mip page, like Nk'mip's press kit, claims to be the only desert centre and that only its side of the valley is the "desert"; "there can only be one", seemingly, but likewise in Wikipedia; there couldn't be two articles both claiming to be "Canada's only desert". As someone from Lillooet/Fountain/Pavilion/Moran, and familiar with Lytton, Spences Bridge, Ashcroft-Cache Creek, and knowing what the country looks like up to Riske Creek, at the confluence of the Chilcotin and Fraser Rivers, all of which looks just like Osoyoos (only more scenic, and a LOT hotter and drier, and also with the same vegetation and similar fauna).....and that's not original research; pull up a satellite map of southern BC and have a good, long look. And like I said, can you find even newspaper or tourism copy from small towns in Washington or Oregon saying "we are in the Sonoran Desert". Osoyoos' claim is not just overblown, it's not even true; neither desert, nor anything like the Sonora. Like wiki-clones, all you're doing is citing "Osoyoos clones". The RBCM item, as I've already explained, is not valid academic copy and that is NOT a government-managed site, nor vetted by proper academics; somewhere on the Living Landscapes pages, in fact, is a disclaimer, and I remember when the museum was privatized there were concerns from academics that the new management was geared, and commissioned, to work more closely with tourism and forestry etc (i.e. to coordinate their materials to help those industries). And don't just ask universities in WA/OR/UT/ID/NZ/CA, as at the Geography departments at SFU, UBC, UBCO, etc etc. It's not part of the curriculum unless they're doing a "wine unit" reading materials put out by the wine industry, or - as you have, googled "sonoran Desrt" and "Osoyoos" and come up with lots of clone hits supporting the FALSE THESIS. It's not even a thesis, its a very wrong claim, and that's it. Nothing is a reliable source if it says that, and it's not verifiable - as I have just explained.Skookum1 (talk) 09:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- You do release that reliable sources don't become "unreliable" "Just because I said so..."" Your casual dismissal of the mountain sources is unequivocally your WP:POV and WP:OR. Again, so far the only source being brought up to contradict the other reliable sources (beyond your "I said so" defense) is the link by JHunterJ. That's enough to mention the two description in the article but it is certainly not enough to categorically dismiss numerous other reliable sources. AgneCheese/Wine 21:43, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'm anything but OR, it's Osoyoos that has the OR and has too-widely circulated it....[post edit-conflict: They are NOT reliable sources if they are NOT TRUE. They all feed off the same press campaign, based in a tourist promotion and not relevant to academic geography. It's only in relation to the Osoyoos/Nk'mip "Desert" that you hear the claim that it's part of the Sonoran Desert, it's like citing wikiclones, endlessly repeating the same refrain based in the same bit of disinformation. Newspaper travel articles are not valid sources for geographic articles, especially when they contain blatnatly correct information. The aboriginal women article/book is clearly connected to Nk'mip/the OIB's p.r campaign, the environmental journal, like so many, contains bad geography - also based on Osoyoos' hype. The only possible compromise could be "the Osoyoos region in the South Okanagan of northern British Columbia claims to be the northern tip of the Sonoran Desert, but this is not supported by sources unrelated to that region" .... or something to that effect; it would look quite frankly ludicrous in the Sonoran Desert article, "Find me something that says "the Great Basin Desert is part of the Sonoran Desert" (i.e. from a publication discussing that area, with no relation to Canada - and I don't mean a Houston newspaper), find me something that says "The Columbia Plateau Desert is part of the Sonoran Desert", find me something that says "the Mohave Desert is part of the Sonoran Desert", find me something that says "The Sonoran Desert includes all the desert west of the Rockies and extends into Canada, ending at the town of Osoyoos. Drier areas farther north, though similar to the climate of Osoyoos, are defined by Osoyoos to be something else and not part of the Sonoran Desert. Find me something that says "the Columbia River flows through the Sonoran Desert". That Osoyoos, and the area's wine region publicists, have widely circulated the Sonoran Desert claim, it is not part of any regular academic literature and has no relevance to encyclopedic geography, except as a footnote that an incorrect assertion is made by a small Canadian town claiming that the Sonoran Desert extends there (and no further). Wine article after wine article and ecologists/botanists hired by the wineries in question (as I know to be the case, having worked for one of them and being told about it...), and promulgated by a tourism promotion that Osoyoos is "Canada's Only Desert" (and nowhere else is, even places drier and hotter - which haven't planted saguaro or century plant...if Lillooet planted some yucca or Joshua Tree, would it then be part of the Mojave??) - and repeated endlessly by travel writers adapting copy from motel guides (like the one here in my room, in fact), but having no basis in scientific or real academic sources (e.g. the US' own system of geographic classification - which draws the Sonoran Desert's boundary at the Colorado). Something that is untrue, no matter how widely repeated, is just not a reliable source. It certainly is NOT verifiable (you write the geography departments at Pullman, Boise, Wenatchee, Bend, Carson City, Vegas, Oroville - ask them if they are in the Sonoran Desert, ask them what the desert areas of the American West are called and what their boundaries are. Don't you see the point? All the copy you have cited related to material mentioning Osoyoos, they're all just riffing off the same non-fact, it doesn't make it true. In fact, it's quite probably -very probable - that some of those sources even adapted copy from earlier versions of the Wikipedia article and of the Nk'mip Desert article - which has been merged to the Okanagan Desert article and you will not it has the shrub-steppe category, NOT the desert category; add onto this that the Nk'mip page, like Nk'mip's press kit, claims to be the only desert centre and that only its side of the valley is the "desert"; "there can only be one", seemingly, but likewise in Wikipedia; there couldn't be two articles both claiming to be "Canada's only desert". As someone from Lillooet/Fountain/Pavilion/Moran, and familiar with Lytton, Spences Bridge, Ashcroft-Cache Creek, and knowing what the country looks like up to Riske Creek, at the confluence of the Chilcotin and Fraser Rivers, all of which looks just like Osoyoos (only more scenic, and a LOT hotter and drier, and also with the same vegetation and similar fauna).....and that's not original research; pull up a satellite map of southern BC and have a good, long look. And like I said, can you find even newspaper or tourism copy from small towns in Washington or Oregon saying "we are in the Sonoran Desert". Osoyoos' claim is not just overblown, it's not even true; neither desert, nor anything like the Sonora. Like wiki-clones, all you're doing is citing "Osoyoos clones". The RBCM item, as I've already explained, is not valid academic copy and that is NOT a government-managed site, nor vetted by proper academics; somewhere on the Living Landscapes pages, in fact, is a disclaimer, and I remember when the museum was privatized there were concerns from academics that the new management was geared, and commissioned, to work more closely with tourism and forestry etc (i.e. to coordinate their materials to help those industries). And don't just ask universities in WA/OR/UT/ID/NZ/CA, as at the Geography departments at SFU, UBC, UBCO, etc etc. It's not part of the curriculum unless they're doing a "wine unit" reading materials put out by the wine industry, or - as you have, googled "sonoran Desrt" and "Osoyoos" and come up with lots of clone hits supporting the FALSE THESIS. It's not even a thesis, its a very wrong claim, and that's it. Nothing is a reliable source if it says that, and it's not verifiable - as I have just explained.Skookum1 (talk) 09:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- If you want to edit the Sonaran Desert article with this information, please research this C. Hart Merriam, his ideas and their effect, decently. I don't have time right now to do it well, but perhaps in a few weeks. It's an interesting bit of geo-terminology-history. I still suspect the usage is extremely "fringe", but then again, I've always thought there should be a general term for the large "North American Desert" region that does in fact reach from Mexico to BC (though well north of the Okanagan Valley, to be sure). So, if you want to edit the relevant articles, please take time to do some good research. Perhaps I'll find time to do it myself in a bit. Pfly (talk) 09:16, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- So the WP:RS policy should be chucked out the window? None of these are reliable sources because......you say so? So far only the link that JHunterJ has provided below is the only thing close to disputing the mountain of reliable sources that say other wise. I can see merit in including both those as compromise--the many reliable sources that place it in Sonoran and the desert.org link that offers the scrubland view. Then we can edit the Sonoran article link with more details on the disagreement (since obviously a wine article is not the best forum). That way both views are represented and we're not relying on "Because I said so WP:OR". AgneCheese/Wine 05:02, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'd put stock in the File:Mojave-sonoran_deserts.png. The amount of information that contradict that map might warrant a section disputing the claims of the desert suddenly popping up again after disappearing for such a distance; ideally, that rebuttal would be published somewhere and could be sourced. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:27, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well I was going to edit the Sonoran Desert article with one of the numerous reliable sources we have here but once I saw Skookum's commitment to an edit war, I decided to wait. AgneCheese/Wine 05:02, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps something from here? -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:33, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- That last one is interesting, actually putting a name and date—C. Hart Merriam, 1889—to the origin of this odd use of the word "Sonoran". I can believe there are some decent sources that use the word this broadly, but it sounds bizarre to me and contradicts to an extreme the normal sense of "Sonoran". So I'd say that if the term is to be used in this broad sense it should also be pointed out that such usage is non-standard. (also, I find it funny that the Houston Chronicle says West Texas is in the Sonoran Desert, when it is in the Chihuahuan Desert--you'd think Texans would at least get their own geography right!) Pfly (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- The name I recall for the collectivity of western deserts and semi-arid areas, and includes BC - up to and including Kamloops, Riske Creek, the Thompson - is the Great Western Desert or the Western American Desert; maybe I've seen both in fact; the term Western Desert I believe is an Egyptian context, meaning west of Nile of course, and on the hither side of teh Libyan Desert/ both are part of teh Sahara. Thet equivalent to the Sonoran Osoyoos claim is like saying the Coast Mountains are part of the Sierra Nevada; what they are both part of is the Western Cordillera, and also its subset the Pacific Coast Ranges; but they are not the same thing. You might have found this in the New York Times or Houston Chronicle travel or food sections, but you won't find it in the New York Times science section....Skookum1 (talk) 09:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- That last one is interesting, actually putting a name and date—C. Hart Merriam, 1889—to the origin of this odd use of the word "Sonoran". I can believe there are some decent sources that use the word this broadly, but it sounds bizarre to me and contradicts to an extreme the normal sense of "Sonoran". So I'd say that if the term is to be used in this broad sense it should also be pointed out that such usage is non-standard. (also, I find it funny that the Houston Chronicle says West Texas is in the Sonoran Desert, when it is in the Chihuahuan Desert--you'd think Texans would at least get their own geography right!) Pfly (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Looking around at other wikipedia articles in teh US regions category, most of which are well-cited from proper sources and reflect the academic/official definitions, I found this on teh Great Basin page:
- The Great Basin also has many named deserts, such as the Black Rock Desert, the Great Salt Lake Desert, the Sevier Desert, the Smoke Creek Desert, large parts of the Great Basin Desert, the Mojave Desert, and part of the Sonoran Desert of Baja California
They mean, and perhaps I'll reword it appropriately as "that part of the Sonoran Desert in Baja California" (which is the only part in the Great Basin, as defined on various page and maps (clearly not read by the Osoyoos tourism and wine people in the course of prepaing their p.r.). Ecoregions of the United States....which redirects somewhere, can't remember exactly where, will also not have anything on the Sonoran Desert including all those others, and those in the Columbia Plateau also...unless Agne tries to add it....but I submit it won't survive long....bad sources are bad sources, and only worth mention as being bad sources, as in the manner above "a small tourist town in southern British Columbia, Canada, claims to be the northern tip of the sonoran Desert, though this is not supported by academic literature/consensus/ or official definition of the Sonoran Desert." Then to a statement like that, if you want, you can add the linkfarm of bad sources as demonstration.Skookum1 (talk) 09:37, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- From the Columbia Plateau (ecoregion) article:
- The Okanogan Valley ecoregion is located along the lower reaches of the Okanogan and Methow rivers and their tributaries in northeastern Washington, including land managed by the Okanogan National Forest.
- No mention of any desert, much less the Sonoran....Skookum1 (talk) 09:45, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Um....you do realize that Wikipedia can be edited? All those webpage can be updated with the reliable sources that describe the northern extension in the Okanagan. They certainly don't support your "Because I said so" case. There is still only the JHunterJ link and your own personal WP:OR and WP:POV campaign. AgneCheese/Wine 21:43, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- From the Columbia Plateau (ecoregion) article:
This has NOTHING to do with "Skookum1 says so", though Skookum1 DOES happen to be right. What are you going to add to those pages? "A small pocket of the Sonoran Desert exists in British Columbia, Canada, but nowhere else in between"?? And then use tourism/wine-based sites and wine-commissioned studies to back that up?? Those Wikipedia pages, and countless more, use OFFICIAL and VERIFIABLE sources for their descriptions, not travel articles. I challenge you again - find me cites or pages that say "Wenatchee is part of the Sonoran Desert", or "Klamath Falls is part of the Sonoran Desert" or "the Great Basin Desert is part of the Sonoran Desert". You're wanting to add fictional geography because you have a host of sites riffing off Osoyoos and the Okanagan Wine Regions' presskits. This has nothing to do with ME personally, other than I INSIST on truthful information, not half-baked geography circulated by tourism boards and business organizations. Go ahead, ask on Talk:Geography of Washington, Talk:Geography of Oregon, Talk:Geography of Idaho, Talk:Geography of Utah and others, and tell THEM that because you have a bunch of "cites" saying that Osoyoos BC (and only Osoyoos, despite the 3-400 miles northward or soe that the VERY SAME climate extends northwards into BC) is in the Sonoran Desert, then their articles are in error for not saying that all of them are part of the Sonoran Desert......I think you should start reading more than just WP:Wine articles....see Category:Regions of the United States for teh various ecoregion/landform articles on the North American Deserts (which is the term used by the US ecoregion page - which limits the Sonoran Desert term to its proper delimitation, the Colorado River. It's not "because Skookum1 sez so", it's "because Agne says he/she has found a whole bunch of articles saying Osoyoos is part of the Sonoran Desert, so therefore all the deserts in Washington, Idaho, Oregon, Utah, and Nevada are also part of the Sonoran Desert". The citations you've brought up are demonstrably flase and in error, and are therefore not admissible except as anything but curiosities, and laughable in proper geographic classification/literature....Skookum1 (talk) 22:27, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm, let see. In that 2000+ bytes of text, any reliable sources mentioned to back up your argument? Hmm, doesn't look like it. More "I said so" and Oh, yeah, "Go check out Wikipedia"--which is somewhat cute since WP:CIRCULAR and all commonsense says you don't use Wikipedia to back up what you think should be...on Wikipedia. But I don't doubt your good faith, I just think you need to move beyond your "Because I said so" argument and start list some actually reliable sources that explicitly debunk the sources above. Let's create a new section to explore this. AgneCheese/Wine 22:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
RS that explicitly say that the Okanagan does not include the Sonoran
Here Skookum. Please list the WP:RS that directly counter the mountains of sources that say the Okanagan includes a northern extension of Sonoran. Now the cites should mention the Okanagan and directly debunk it because cites that just talk about the Mexican, Southwest extension of the Sonoran could just be suffering from omission and/or incompleteness. Otherwise, I'm still leaning towards a compromise using JHunterJ's link in the article along with the cites that describe the area as part of the Sonora and then the alternative description. AgneCheese/Wine 22:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Good GRIEF! Have you not read what I just said, or just dissed it as 2000kb and WP:Did not read because you don't CARE what Geog of Washington, Geog of Idaho, Geog of Utah etc and scads of ecoregion and landform pages say - or DO NOT SAY?? You're asking me to prove a negative statement, with sources saying "the Okanagan is not part of the Sonoran Desert". Your sources saying that "thet Okanagan IS part of the Sonoran Desert" ultimately ALL trace to the same (unreliable) source, namely the press kits of the Okanagan Wine Region, Nk'Mip Cellars, and the Osoyoos Tourism Board. If you wish I'll spend the next couple of hours copying ALL the cites on the various state geography, ecoregion and landform articles which do NOT say anything of the kind, AND NEVER SHOULD. Your solution? - change those pages to agree with a Canadian wine regions bad geography-cum-propaganda. Get a grip.Skookum1 (talk) 23:12, 8 January 2011 (UTC)