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== New entries == |
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I reckon more countries should be added to the list. This article is about regional powers, not world powers. Some countries might seem to be “average” compared to other powerful countries, but considering the world is not evenly developed (it has never been evenly developed anyway), some countries should be included as long as they are powerful in their geographic region and its nearby areas. |
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I would like to propose the addition of the following new entries: |
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Central Asia: Kazakhstan (a member state of the [[Shanghai Cooperation Organisation]]) |
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Central Africa: Democratic Republic of the Congo (powerful in a weak region) |
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East Africa: Ethiopia (powerful in a weak region) |
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North Africa: Egypt (standout in their region and its nearby areas) |
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West Africa: Nigeria (standout in their region and its nearby areas) |
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Guys, please let me know your thoughts. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/120.156.138.87|120.156.138.87]] ([[User talk:120.156.138.87|talk]]) 10:26, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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== Addition of new countries == |
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Some new countries like Egypt, Kazakhstan, Nigeria have been recently added to this list. I feel we need a more detailed discussion before we keep on adding new countries to this list and what sources/criteria are required. Thanks. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 09:50, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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{{u|2001:8003:8612:EA00:B8C4:E2D2:3B14:2A5E}} Please discuss your changes here until then maintain [[WP:STATUSQUO]]. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 10:12, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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{{u|120.156.138.87}} I don't see any discussion here. Please do not edit the page until this discussion is over, which can take days at times. Please be patient. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 10:19, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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: I reckon more countries should be added to the list. This article is about regional powers, not world powers. Some countries might seem to be “average” compared to other powerful countries, but considering the world is not evenly developed (it has never been evenly developed anyway), some countries should be included as long as they are powerful in their geographic region and its nearby areas. |
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: I would like to propose the addition of the following new entries: |
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: Central Asia: Kazakhstan (a member state of the [[Shanghai Cooperation Organisation]]) |
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: Central Africa: Democratic Republic of the Congo (powerful in a weak region) |
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: East Africa: Ethiopia (powerful in a weak region) |
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: North Africa: Egypt (standout in their region and its nearby areas) |
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: West Africa: Nigeria (standout in their region and its nearby areas) |
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: Guys, please let me know your thoughts. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/2001:8003:8612:EA00:B8C4:E2D2:3B14:2A5E|2001:8003:8612:EA00:B8C4:E2D2:3B14:2A5E]] ([[User talk:2001:8003:8612:EA00:B8C4:E2D2:3B14:2A5E|talk]]) 10:47, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:: Especially, I would like to point out Nigeria. I noticed that South Africa is already in the list of regional powers. Nigeria now has a bigger GDP than South Africa. It is also a big country and rich in resources. It is one of the Top 10 most populous countries in the world, it has almost 20% of Africa’s total population. On top of everything, it has the biggest city on the African continent: Lagos. Lagos is fast becoming the New York City of Africa with big multinational corporations setting up their African head offices there and a fast growing finance industry. |
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:: If Nigeria is not included, I would rather spend my time in the gym than editing articles in Wikipedia. [[Special:Contributions/120.156.138.87|120.156.138.87]] ([[User talk:120.156.138.87|talk]]) 11:11, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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::: {{u|2001:8003:8612:EA00:B8C4:E2D2:3B14:2A5E}}, {{u|120.156.138.87}} We need [[WP:RS]] to include any of these countries. Quora is not considered a [[WP:RS]] since it a [[WP:SPS]]. The sources currently provided are not [[WP:SPS]] and not acceptable. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 15:40, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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== Protected edit request on 27 January 2018 == |
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{{edit fully-protected|Regional power|answered=yes}} |
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Remove Nigeria and Egypt from the list. Both these countries were not present before and have been added using [[WP:SPS]]. One is quora and the other is an article from an editorial board. We need [[WP:RS]] from neutral authoritative sources before we can add them back. The editors who are currently adding this are discussing their inclusion. Thanks. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 15:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC) [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 15:42, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please establish a [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] for this alteration '''[[Wikipedia:Edit requests|before]]''' using the {{tlx|edit protected}} template.<!-- Template:EP --> — Martin <small>([[User:MSGJ|MSGJ]] · [[User talk:MSGJ|talk]])</small> 18:52, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:: {{u|MSGJ}} There is no [[WP:RS]] for their inclusion as of yet. The editors have provided a link to Quora and other [[WP:SPS]] to justify their inclusion (check the page itself). The discussion and the page protection have been initiated by me to reach a consensus on their inclusion per [[WP:RS]] which have not yet been provided. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 19:18, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:::I understand but still need another editor to confirm that these additions are not warranted. — Martin <small>([[User:MSGJ|MSGJ]] · [[User talk:MSGJ|talk]])</small> 20:37, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:::: {{u|El C}} Can you please chime in? Thanks. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 20:44, 27 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::I agree that [[Kazakhstan]] was a bit much, but [[Nigeria]] and [[Egypt]] ''are'' both [[:File:Major_Powers_by_regions.svg|on the map]], so with the right refs, I don't see the issue. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 07:51, 30 January 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::{{u|El C}} The map is outdated. These countries have been removed quite some time ago. The references provided as of now are [[WP:SPS]]. I am confused how can we re-add these countries under these conditions. The edtior(s) (I think it is only one on 2 IPs) in question have not yet provided a authoritative reference. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 08:19, 30 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::I don't see how the map could be outdated, but I agree that if the sources are not provided, they can be removed. [[User:El_C|El_C]] 08:43, 30 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::: {{u|El C}} The map was last updated on 13 October 2015. That is almost 2 years ago. I am not opposed to addition of those countries given we have the requisite references. The IP in question made this comment "If Nigeria is not included, I would rather spend my time in the gym than editing articles in Wikipedia." which seems frivolous to me. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 09:12, 30 January 2018 (UTC) |
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{{od}}Unfortunately, this article is constantly subject to petty nationalism and the deletion of sourced content. Searching in past versions, I found two citations that support the inclusion of Nigeria: |
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#"West Africa, with its strong French influence, is home to one of Africa's two regional giants, Nigeria, and the region has seen the scene of much political and ethnic unrest." See David Lynch, ''Trade and Globalization'' (Lanham, USA: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2010), p. 51. |
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#"South Africa is not the sole regional power on the continent, though; Nigeria is the other widely acknowledge centre of power in Africa and likewise a sub-regional superpower in West Africa." See Deon Geldenhuys, "South Africa: The Idea-driven Foreign Policy of a Regional Power," in ''Regional Leadership in the Global System'', edited by Daniel Flemes (Farnham, UK: Ashgate, 2010), p. 151. |
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The map in question actually reflects a much more complete listing of countries, by regions and sub-regions, that a combination of malicious and ignorant editing removed from the article.--[[User:MarshalN20|<b style="color: Olive">'''MarshalN20'''</b>]] [[User_talk:MarshalN20|<sup style="color: maroon">✉</sup>]][[WP:3O|🕊]] 09:37, 30 January 2018 (UTC) |
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: {{u|MarshalN20}} Thanks a lot for your input on Nigeria. IMO we have enough references for Nigeria. I am not completely convicted about [[Egypt]] though. First, Egypt has always been mentioned under Africa/North Africa not Transcontinental. Second, there has been some literature post 2015 which states that Egypt is no longer a regional power. ([https://www.middleeastobserver.org/2016/11/23/how-egypt-has-became-a-powerless-regional-entity-geopolitical/],[https://www.opendemocracy.net/north-africa-west-asia/maged-mandour/weakening-of-egypt-s-regional-role],[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-egypt-specialreport/special-report-why-egypts-power-has-dimmed-idUSTRE6BJ1U020101220],[http://world.time.com/2013/08/18/egypt-no-longer-matters/]). Happy to discuss more. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 14:35, 30 January 2018 (UTC) |
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::Yeah, there seems to be more evidence explaining ''why'' Egypt ''is not'' a regional power than supporting it to currently be one.--[[User:MarshalN20|<b style="color: Olive">'''MarshalN20'''</b>]] [[User_talk:MarshalN20|<sup style="color: maroon">✉</sup>]][[WP:3O|🕊]] 19:39, 30 January 2018 (UTC) |
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::: {{u|El C}},{{u|MarshalN20}} The page has now been unprotected. I propose we let Nigeria remain in the list but update the quora source with the above sources. Additionally, we remove Egypt from the list until we find more authoritative references. Does this sound good? Thanks. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 16:18, 31 January 2018 (UTC) |
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::::The main problem with the article is not the countries listed. Focusing too much on that detracts from the larger issue, which is that of defining the regions in which these "regional powers" operate. Nigeria isn't a continental power, so listing it under "Africa" is an exaggeration. The sources indicate that it's a power in West Africa. Is South Africa a power in all of Africa? Regions are far more numerous than continents, and the existence of a "transcontinental" list is outside the scope of this article.--[[User:MarshalN20|<b style="color: Olive">'''MarshalN20'''</b>]] [[User_talk:MarshalN20|<sup style="color: maroon">✉</sup>]][[WP:3O|🕊]] 19:25, 31 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::{{u|MarshalN20}} Nigeria, when it was listed in the article, was mentioned under West Africa. Similarly, Russia and Turkey were not mentioned as trans-continental powers. I think the issues is multi-fold. We first need to trim the countries based on the sources we have. Then assign them with the relevant regions. I would consider South-Africa a Southern Africa regional power which is reflected in the sources. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 23:46, 1 February 2018 (UTC) |
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== Should Europe be split into regions? == |
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If yes, I would like to propose the addition of the following new entries: |
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====Northern Europe==== |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Denmark}}''' (maybe) |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Norway}}''' (maybe) |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Sweden}}''' |
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* '''{{flagcountry|United Kingdom}}''' (already on the list) |
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====Western Europe==== |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Austria}}''' (maybe) |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Belgium}}''' |
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* '''{{flagcountry|France}}''' (already on the list) |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Germany}}''' (already on the list) |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Netherlands}}''' |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Switzerland}}''' |
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====Eastern Europe==== |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Poland}}''' |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Romania}}''' (maybe) |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Ukraine}}''' (maybe) |
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====Southern Europe==== |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Italy}}''' (already on the list) |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Portugal}}''' (maybe) |
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* '''{{flagcountry|Spain}}''' |
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If you don't agree, that's fine. I was just making a suggestion. And how about adding Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines and Singapore in Southeast Asia, Hong Kong and Taiwan in East Asia, Egypt in Africa and the UAE in Western Asia? --[[Special:Contributions/2A02:2149:826D:7A00:4D16:C812:1F72:30DA|2A02:2149:826D:7A00:4D16:C812:1F72:30DA]] ([[User talk:2A02:2149:826D:7A00:4D16:C812:1F72:30DA|talk]]) 17:00, 18 April 2018 (UTC) |
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==Pakistan== |
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{{ping|Adamgerber80|Sdmarathe|Usman47}} Here is quick analysis of the sources used by Usman47. |
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*[https://web.archive.org/web/20020624231948/http://www.iss.co.za/Pubs/Monographs/No13/Solomon.html] = From 2002. States Hungary Sweden and more as "middle powers". |
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*[https://eng.sectsco.org/for_media/20180606/441009.html] Shanghai Cooperation organisation list. That is no description for "regional power". |
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*[https://nation.com.pk/07-Sep-2017/pak-us-regional-power-politics] Unreliable source, which sentence say Pakistan is a regional power? |
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*[https://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2013/05/18/india-pakistan-and-china-the-importance-of-regional-powers-in-a-post-u-s-afghanistan/] Unreliable source. |
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*[https://southasianvoices.org/contours-of-south-asia/] Unreliable again. |
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*[https://books.google.com/books?id=XvtS5hKg9jYC&pg=PR8&redir_esc=y] provide quote for this. Where you were reading that source say Pakistan is a regional power? |
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*[https://books.google.com/books?redir_esc=y&id=o46rAgAAQBAJ&q=pakistan+regional+power#v=snippet&q=pakistan%20regional%20power&f=false] regional nuclear power? How's that "Regional power". |
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These sources fail the point. [[User:Lorstaking|Lorstaking]] ([[User talk:Lorstaking|talk]]) 11:17, 5 July 2018 (UTC) |
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:{{ping|Mar4d}} you are supposed to carry on discussion here in place of restoring the disputed edit. Do you have any source that qualifies more than just passing mention? [[User:Sdmarathe|Sdmarathe]] ([[User talk:Sdmarathe|talk]]) 19:42, 5 July 2018 (UTC) |
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:: @Everyone, Can we please revert to the page as it was on this [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Regional_power&oldid=846733590 version] on 20 June 2018. I do understand that there a set of editors who think the sources added are insufficient and other editors think we have enough [[WP:RS]] to include Pakistan. This can be done here without engaging in an edit-war. And something for everyone to ponder on is this link from [https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-balance/2018/07/military-capability-and-international-status IISS]. Even though it is marked as a blog, it gives a good matrix analysis of what constitutes a regional power. IISS is also a reputed organization with experts and is considered a great neutral source on Wikipedia. IMO, beyond this discussion, we should use this to make this page better. Thanks. [[User:Adamgerber80|Adamgerber80]] ([[User talk:Adamgerber80|talk]]) 20:48, 5 July 2018 (UTC) |
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:::We don't have to voice opinion of minority but mainstream. You can search and discover sources calling Sri Lanka, United Arab Emirates, and other countries a regional power as well but we have to voice the mainstream view. IISS also calls "North Korea" a regional power but that's not supported by majority of sources. India and Brazil are a [[Great power]] according to many sources and some consider India, China, Russia to be a superpower. But Wikipedia article on these subjects don't list Brazil and India as great power, nor list Russia, India, China as superpower because that is not an opinion of majority. |
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:::Generally the sources that are focused on regional powers have not included Pakistan as one:- |
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:::*[https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2720/cb7b4dc1130f0b70c87fc252d3eb5f1ea865.pdf][https://archive.intereconomics.eu/year/2011/5/the-challenge-to-europe-regional-powers-and-the-shifting-of-the-global-order/] [https://www.giga-hamburg.de/sites/default/files/publications/EU_regionalpowers_kappel.pdf]: "Testing several indicators, we identified the following countries as regional powers: China, India, Brazil, South Africa, Mexico, Indonesia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey." |
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::::.... "''for example, Israel, Iran, '''Pakistan''', Thailand, Vietnam, Argentina, Venezuela and Nigeria. They are important but '''do not belong to those nations which exert global and regional influence, either in regional or global institutions or as economic hubs in the region.''' For comparison, the data of some of the aforementioned countries were taken into consideration.''" |
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:::*[https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/151160/wp200_shim-flamm.pdf]: "The countries considered to be regional powers – Brazil, South Africa, India, China, Japan and Russia". |
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:::*[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249691042_Leaders_in_Need_of_Followers_Emerging_Powers_in_Global_Governance]: This list is certainly small but includes China, India, not Pakistan. |
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:::*[https://books.google.com/books?id=OW6OoFvV42AC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=regional+powers#v=onepage&q=regional%20powers&f=false]: Look at the table at the bottom of the page 56. |
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:::*[http://www.eisa-net.org/eisa-net.org/be-bruga/eisa/files/events/turin/Odgaard-sgirturin07LOpaper.pdf]: " But it also reflects that secondary regional powers and entities such as ASEAN, Russia, South Korea and India have proved unwilling to chose between the two." |
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:::*[https://books.google.com/books?id=w73OCwAAQBAJ]: This entire book is dedicated to "''Regional Powers and Global Redistribution''". It says "Regional powers such as India, Brazil and South Africa", but makes no mention of Pakistan as a regional power. |
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:::The first source is widely prevalent in academia and holds full expertise in this subject. It has refuted the incorrect notion. None of the above references as well as many others[http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.555.1448&rep=rep1&type=pdf][http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199743292/obo-9780199743292-0222.xml][https://books.google.com/books?id=ud3fCgAAQBAJ][https://books.google.com/books?id=kClVEVocMR0C&pg=PA243#v=onepage&q&f=false][https://books.google.com/books?id=NcggVS7JycgC&pg=PA650#v=onepage&q&f=false][https://books.google.com/books?id=kClVEVocMR0C&pg=PA243#v=onepage&q&f=false] say that Pakistan is a regional power and most of them don't even mention Pakistan in this context. If Pakistan is a regional power than those sources are ought to say it if Pakistan was really a regional power. [https://books.google.com/books?id=FMByBMzrSJ8C&pg=PA192&dq=pakistan+sub+regional+power#v=onepage&q=pakistan%20sub%20regional%20power&f=false This book] says Pakistan is a "sub-regional power". Given the large amount of dispute and omission of Pakistan as "regional power", it seems that it is just an opinion of a small minority that Pakistan is a regional power and it is not shared by the majority as already evidenced in the great amount of sources that have authority in this subject. There is a strong argument against inclusion of Pakistan as regional power. [[User:Orientls|Orientls]] ([[User talk:Orientls|talk]]) 09:12, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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::::That's an interesting analysis of the weakness of this information. Also read [https://books.google.com/books?id=l2WrAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA193&dq=why+pakistan+a+regional+power#v=onepage&q=why%20pakistan%20a%20regional%20power&f=false this chapter]. It describes the problems with calling Pakistan a regional power. [[User:Lorstaking|Lorstaking]] ([[User talk:Lorstaking|talk]]) 10:35, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::Reading that, I support removing such [[advertisement|information that seem to be promoting the status]] that doesn't really exists. [[User:Orientls|Orientls]] ([[User talk:Orientls|talk]]) 13:41, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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@[[User:Orientls|Orientls]] It's interesting that you are quoting sources that are suiting your narrative and are majority biased sources with Indian authors. Since this is a page talk not a discussion forum, i would refrain to go in to an argument. Same arguments that you are applying here can be applied for India where no article mentions india as a monopoly of regional power in South Asia. Your arguments are politically motivated and are no substance. |
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== Italy as a regional power == |
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Pakistan being world's seventh nuclear power <ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction</ref> and have sixth largest nuclear arsenal <ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons</ref> ; one of the few countries that have completed nuclear triad. Have sixth largest standing army <ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_military_and_paramilitary_personnel</ref>. It is a large manufacturer and supplier of military equipment and deploy it's forces in multiple regional countries for security and stability and provide training to other militaries <ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Armed_Forces_deployments</ref>. <ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_equipment_manufactured_in_Pakistan</ref>, Is a founding member/full member of multiple international geo-strategic organisations. <ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Islamic_Cooperation</ref>, <ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation</ref> qualifies Pakistan as regional power. [[User:AlphaAce|AlphaAce]] ([[User talk:AlphaAce|talk]]) 15:44, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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:Your own [[WP:OR|original research]] cannot be taken as substitute for reliable source. Pakistan is regarded as a regional power by minority, Wikipedia links of Pakistani-related articles don't prove anything that concerns regional power status. [[User:Orientls|Orientls]] ([[User talk:Orientls|talk]]) 15:59, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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{{ping|LuigiPortaro29}} An Italian who ''exclusively '' edits Italy related articles not being blinded with patriotism is very hard to believe. Either way, I highly advised you to revert your last edit because you just broke [[WP:3RR]] and you may be reported to [[WP:AN3]] and subsequently blocked. [[User:SpaceEconomist192|<span style="font-family:MV Boli;color:#526D82">'''SpaceEconomist'''</span>]] [[User talk:SpaceEconomist192|<span style="font-family:MV Boli;color:#6082B6">192</span>]] 13:18, 27 August 2023 (UTC) |
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*I wished to add here that I have only seen random mentions of Pakistan being a regional power around and maybe there were better chances for Pakistan to be treated as a regional power a decade or earlier however the recent reliable sources as listed by Orientls show Pakistan is not making it to the list at all. [[User:Sdmarathe|Sdmarathe]] ([[User talk:Sdmarathe|talk]]) 16:28, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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:Hello!. As I said you there's nothing to do with patriotism. Italy is in that list since many years here, but I have check the sources of Italy and other countries, in many cases the sources are old/outated. I think is time to found new sources and then delete that countries who aren't regional powers. I would like to hear what other users think about...-- [[User:LuigiPortaro29|LuigiPortaro29]] ([[User talk:LuigiPortaro29|talk]]) 06:40, 18 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::It has everything to do with patriotism, I removed 4 different countries and the only one you added back was ''precisely'' your country, Italy. That's great if you want to so a sources review but the sources for Italy are not good, the 36th source is unreliable due to [[WP:PRIMARY]], the 34th and 35th are unreliable due to [[WP:CONTEXTMATTERS]] and the 33tth should ideally have a page number and a transcript of the specific text since it's not verifiable for most users. Again, you broke the [[WP:3RR]], I highly advise you to revert your last edit otherwise I will report you to [[WP:AN3]]. [[User:SpaceEconomist192|<span style="font-family:MV Boli;color:#526D82">'''SpaceEconomist'''</span>]] [[User talk:SpaceEconomist192|<span style="font-family:MV Boli;color:#6082B6">192</span>]] 09:32, 18 July 2023 (UTC) |
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:::I agree with [[User:SpaceEconomist192|SpaceEconomist192]]. Luigi is the only user who has deleted Spain from the Southern Europe section, probably because he wants to see Italy as the only country there despite the fact that there are quite a few sources that describe Spain as a regional power in Southern Europe. He also deleted in other articles, despite again the numerous sources, that Spain is a cultural superpower to focus on Italy as the only possible one in Southern Europe. |
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:::Honestly, given his attitude, his neutrality is at least debatable. [[User:Venezia Friulano|Venezia Friulano]] ([[User talk:Venezia Friulano|talk]]) 12:07, 18 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::::I think we have a misunderstanding here. The sources and references used to put Spain in the list says that Spain is a "Middle Power"(which is not the same the concept of Regional Power) They don't mention Spain as a "Regional Power" in Europe. If that the case, that we have to put Spain in this list, we should add Netherlands too, considering is a "Middle Power" and an Economic power in Europe. That's why I think Spain shouldn't be in this list. It's not hard to understand that the only european countries that are full members of the G20, the G7, The Quint, and are considered the big countries of Europe since 1920 are Germany, France, Italy and the UK. These countries are enough to represent the european power, considering that Russia is also on the list. [[User:Brunov07|Brunov07]] ([[User talk:Brunov07|talk]]) 03:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::::: Uf, sockpuppeting! Dummy. '''<span style="font-family:Sergio print;">The [[User:The Blue Rider|<span style="color:#2664F5">Blue</span>]] Rider</span>''' [[File:Postal horn icon.svg|19px |link=User talk:The Blue Rider]] 22:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::So that's your response to my opinion. Awesome dude, if seeing Spain in this wikipedia article makes you happy and your life depends on it, good for you then. It's funny because you don't have any single argument for putting Spain in the list, the only reason you do it is because you want to play the patriotic role in this article. It's even more funny because yo put Spain as a member of the G20 when that IS NOT TRUE, and you put the OECD based on what ??? lmaooo. I hope that some admin or moderator see this because this article is a complete joke. [[User:Brunov07|Brunov07]] ([[User talk:Brunov07|talk]]) 03:07, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::: I'm not even Spanish but nice try. Spain has multiple sources describing it as a regional power; middle power = regional power in most contexts. '''<span style="font-family:Sergio print;">The [[User:The Blue Rider|<span style="color:#2664F5">Blue</span>]] Rider</span>''' [[File:Postal horn icon.svg|19px|link= User talk:The Blue Rider]] 01:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC) |
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Spain isn't a regional power,Italy yes.[[Special:Contributions/79.23.193.41|79.23.193.41]] ([[User talk:79.23.193.41|talk]]) 08:24, 19 July 2023 (UTC) |
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== Spain it’s not a member of the G20. == |
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* Unfortunately, nope. Orientls' "analysis" (or [[WP:OR|opinion]]) is weak, incomplete, and for lack of a better term, also invalid/not up to the mark. We are not concerned with "global redistribution". Regional powers are (sic) states that have "''power within a geographic region. States which wield unrivalled power and influence within a region of the world possess regional hegemony.''" Here we are focused on "regional power" within [[South Asia]] as per [[WP:RS]]. ^I don't know who this Rajesh Rajagopalan is, or what his credentials are. But [[Barry Buzan]],<ref name="Buzan2004">{{cite book|author=Barry Buzan|title=The United States and the Great Powers: World Politics in the Twenty-First Century|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=VW4H8ZW6K-kC&pg=PA71|date=15 October 2004|publisher=Polity|isbn=978-0-7456-3375-6|pages=71–|quote=Regional powers define the polarity of any given regional security complex (Walt 1987; Lake and Morgan 1997; Buzan and Wæver 2003): India and Pakistan in South Asia...}}</ref><ref name="Buzan2">{{Cite book |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=N3LfkrrNM4QC&pg=PA55 |title=Regions and Powers: The Structure of International Security |last=Buzan |first=Barry |last2=Wæver |first2=Ole |publisher=Cambridge University Press |year=2003 |isbn=978-0-521-89111-0|page=55 |quote=In the framework of their regional security complex theory (RSCT), Barry Buzan and Ole Waever differentiate between superpowers and great powers which act and influence the global level (or system level) and regional powers whose influence may be large in their regions but have less effect at the global level. This category of regional powers includes Brazil, Egypt, India, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and Turkey.}}</ref> [[Ole Wæver]],<ref name="Buzan2"/> [[T. V. Paul]],<ref>{{cite book |last1=Paul |first1=T. V. |title=International Relations Theory and Regional Transformation |date=2012 |publisher=[[Cambridge University Press]] |isbn=978-1-107-02021-4 |page=11 |url=https://books.google.com/?id=ofzH6pFO9iUC&pg=PA11|access-date=3 February 2017 |quote=The regional powers such as Israel or Pakistan are not simple bystanders of great power politics in their regions; they attempt to asymmetrically influence the major power system often in their own distinct ways.}}</ref> [[James N. Rosenau]],<ref name="AydinliRosenau2005">{{cite book|author1=Ersel Aydinli|author2=James N. Rosenau|title=Globalization, Security, and the Nation State: Paradigms in Transition|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=0c6ha_t3wJUC&pg=PA177|year=2005|publisher=SUNY Press|isbn=978-0-7914-6402-1|pages=177–|quote=Regional powers refers to the much larger and, in international security terms, much more significant, category of states that define the power structure of their local region: India and Pakistan in South Asia; South Africa in southern Africa; Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia in the Gulf; Egypt, Israel, and Syria in the Levant; and so forth. Regional powers may not matter much at the global level, but within their regions they determine both the local patterns of security relations and the way in which those patterns interact with global powers.}}</ref> [[Roger Kanet]],<ref name="KolodziejKanet1989">{{cite book|author1=Edward A. Kolodziej|author2=Roger E. Kanet|title=Limits of Soviet Power|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=qPevCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA202|date=18 June 1989|publisher=Palgrave Macmillan UK|isbn=978-1-349-10146-7|pages=202–|quote=Because of Pakistan's reemergence as at least a regional power, we identify an emerging pentagon of power in and around South Asia...}}</ref> [[Samuel P. Huntington]]<ref name="DijkinkKnippenberg2001">{{cite book|author1=Gertjan Dijkink|author2=Hans Knippenberg|title=The Territorial Factor: Political Geography in a Globalising World|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=3RRJr-5q1H0C&pg=PA61|year=2001|publisher=Amsterdam University Press|isbn=978-90-5629-188-4|pages=61–|quote=Secondary regional powers in Huntington's view include Great Britain, Ukraine, Japan, South Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Argentina.}}</ref><ref name="Lia2007">{{cite book|author=Brynjar Lia|title=Globalisation and the Future of Terrorism: Patterns and Predictions|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=t1CQAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA42|date=7 May 2007|publisher=Routledge|isbn=978-1-135-77527-8|pages=42–|quote=...'secondary regional powers whose interest often conflict with the more powerful regional states', including states such as Great Britain, Ukraine, Japan, Argentina, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan}}</ref> and others are mainstream and internationally-recognised experts in the field, and certainly more experienced, qualified, and widely-cited than you. If you think we are going to railroad these experts and pretend you know better, then fat chance! In their work, they have defined in great detail what "regional" powers and their roles are, and in specific terms identify Pakistan amongst the countries that influence regional dynamics and are regional powers. Amongst the criteria that such powers fulfil are conventional military standing (e.g. nuclear states), impact on neighbouring states/regions, socioeconomics etc., and as per the sources we have, these criteria are specifically acknowledged even in as subjective a department as this.<ref name="Buzan2"/> The same standards hold true for most other powers listed in this article for each region. |
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Spain it's not a full member of the G20, it's a permanent invited guest, which it's not the same concept. Even in the official Spanish Foreign Ministry website says that: https://www.exteriores.gob.es/en/PoliticaExterior/Paginas/G20OCDE.aspx. It's not about "sockpuppeting" (which is totally false) it's about not spreading misinformation in Wikipedia. Spain it's NOT a member. It's a guest. So please, take note, and READ the official website of the Spanish government. If in 24 hours I don't get any response, I will delete the G20 tag in Spain. [[User:Brunov07|Brunov07]] ([[User talk:Brunov07|talk]]) 23:43, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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: I will go further, because Orientls is contradicted by his own sources. [https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/151160/wp200_shim-flamm.pdf This] paper acknowledges a publication by [[Robert Pastor]] who (quote) "''includes Argentina, Iraq, Egypt, Indonesia, and Pakistan in addition to the above-mentioned countries''" as regional powers. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249691042_Leaders_in_Need_of_Followers_Emerging_Powers_in_Global_Governance This] link only focuses on a selective group of powers (G4) who failed to attain UNSC seats, and interestingly attributes one of the reasons to an anti-G4 group consisting of active powers like Pakistan, Argentina, Italy, Korea, and Mexico. [https://archive.intereconomics.eu/year/2011/5/the-challenge-to-europe-regional-powers-and-the-shifting-of-the-global-order/ This] one is definitely questionable, as it self-admittedly claims "Russia is excluded from our analysis" and even omits [[Iran]] and [[Israel]], all of which are recurrently mentioned in other sources. [http://www.eisa-net.org/eisa-net.org/be-bruga/eisa/files/events/turin/Odgaard-sgirturin07LOpaper.pdf This] page is on Asia-Pacific and, like most other links above, is entirely irrelevant to South Asia. |
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:[[User:SpaceEconomist192]] [[User:Brunov07|Brunov07]] ([[User talk:Brunov07|talk]]) 23:57, 10 November 2023 (UTC) |
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: Finally, I find it extremely odd that a [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Regional_power&diff=848681481&oldid=848632100 revert] of longstanding sourced content, later called a 'mistake', triggers at least three users with no immediate history on this article effectively trying to restore the same vandal's edits. This article needs to be put under extensive monitoring. '''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 17:04, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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:: You use the same arguments, you edit the same articles about Italy, you demonstrate to be too emotionally involved on this with putting everything at CAPS LOCK in of your edits, that is, if you didn't have a past experience, this wouldn't be the case. '''<span style="font-family:Sergio print;">The [[User:The Blue Rider|<span style="color:#2664F5">Blue</span>]] Rider</span>''' [[File:Postal horn icon.svg|19px|link= User talk:The Blue Rider]] 01:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::To interpret mainstream sources is now considered a [[WP:OR]]? |
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::These sources are the best you could come up with? That's still a minority view. Pakistan is not a regional power when it comes to majority view. According to you, we should also consider Ukraine as a great power? "I don't know who this Rajesh Rajagopalan is, or what his credentials are"? He has enough publications that comes from reliable publications and he has more idea about Pakistan not being a regional power, unlike your sources and some of which you have cherry-picked in wrong context. We can't treat opinion of Robert Pastor that is added to the footnote by the source itself[https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/151160/wp200_shim-flamm.pdf] and Iraq is not a regional power, thus Pastor's opinion is extremely flawed and same goes for "Buzan, Barry; Wæver, Ole", it is flawed too. |
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::Keep this discussion about Pakistan, don't invite discussion about other countries like Iran, Israel as they are definitely more recognizable as regional power, Pakistan isn't. You need to rely on mainstream sources where experts have voiced opinion after having some solid foundation. [[User:Orientls|Orientls]] ([[User talk:Orientls|talk]]) 17:21, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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::: This discussion is about the sources, where you have failed in particular. The sources linked above are mainstream, while yours are not coming even close and are cherry-picked which anyone can see. Also, "''don't invite discussion about other countries like Iran, Israel as they are definitely more recognizable as regional power''" - it is your own source that is claiming they are not regional powers, so double crossing won't help I'm afraid. The only thing that is "flawed" here is your consistent [[WP:OR]], because you are certainly not an academic or expert, and Wikipedia doesn't work based on what your personal opinion is. There is no way anyone is going to take you seriously if you don't stick to the content. Thanks! '''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 17:37, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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::::You are picking up footnotes of a source ([[WP:CHERRYPICKING]]) for establishing your view that Pakistan is a regional power. Whether those sources are mainstream or not, the point here is Pakistan is clearly not a regional power because its recognition as a regional power is minor. Like you, I am not talking about what "triggers at least three users with no immediate history on this article". I am only sticking to content. Especially when you make [[WP:POINT]] like "[http://www.eisa-net.org/eisa-net.org/be-bruga/eisa/files/events/turin/Odgaard-sgirturin07LOpaper.pdf This] page is on Asia-Pacific and, like most other links above, is entirely irrelevant to South Asia", you are really failing to find a policy based excuse for disregarding the mainstream view that eliminates Pakistan as regional power. [[User:Orientls|Orientls]] ([[User talk:Orientls|talk]]) 17:49, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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::::: That "footnote" was in your own source(!), which you are ironically using to claim the opposite. Hence my point stands. It's obvious who is cherry-picking from just that particular example. It's not my problem if your sources are entirely irrelevant, or derailing and contradicting each other. The [[Asia-Pacific]] source is on Sino-US influence, and is not even relevant to the region covering this section. Why don't you start a new section below for United States and Chin? '''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 18:02, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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== IS Egypt really not a regional power in North Africa == |
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==India== |
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I remember it being listed here before. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/96.52.16.187|96.52.16.187]] ([[User talk:96.52.16.187#top|talk]]) 09:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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I have explored sources further. The scholarly consensus is that India is not a regional power and it is not a great power either. {{talkquote|However, it is not accepted as the natural leader of the region except perhaps by Bhutan, certainly not by Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, or even Nepal or more recently the Maldives, all of which have resisted India's wishes or demands. Nor does it have the power of compellence over its regional antagonist Pakistan due to the latter's nuclear deterrent capability... it is doubtful if India enjoys compellent power if it wanted to exert it, within its region given the enormous costs and risks. Hence, by the criterion of dominance, that is, compellent capability, '''India does not qualify as a regional power''', certainly not over Pakistan. It can only deter Pakistan and more doubtfully deter its largest neighbour China. Hence India '''can be said to have regional weight and influence but not dominance in a way that it can be considered a regional power'''.<ref>{{cite book|author1=David M. Malone|author2=C. Raja Mohan|author3=Srinath Raghavan|title=The Oxford Handbook of Indian Foreign Policy|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=6V2KCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT738|date=23 July 2015|publisher=OUP Oxford|isbn=978-0-19-106119-6|pages=738–}}</ref>}} {{talkquote|Nevertheless, India has '''not behaved as a regional power'''<ref>{{cite book|author=David Scott|title=Handbook of India's International Relations|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=xvCrAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA36|date=9 May 2011|publisher=Routledge|isbn=978-1-136-81131-9|pages=36–}}</ref>}}{{talkquote|Thus, from the above balance sheet, we can say that '''India is a middle power on the rise'''. At present, '''India cannot be called a great power and it does not appear that India will emerge as one''' in the next decade or so.<ref>{{cite book|author1=Neera Chandhoke|author2=Praveen Priyadarshi|title=Contemporary India: Economy, Society, Politics|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=bVHHyAs6tdwC&pg=PA387|year=2009|publisher=Pearson Education India|isbn=978-81-317-1929-9|pages=387–}}</ref>}} In fact Pakistan's status as a regional power prevents India from becoming a great power itself. {{talkquote|Part of the reason that India's claim for great power status has not been accepted is that '''Pakistan still defines a regional pole of power'''.<ref>{{cite book|author1=Barry Buzan|author2=Barry G. Buzan|author3=Research Professor of International Studies Centre for the Study of Democracy Barry Buzan|author3=Ole Wæver|author4=Ole W'ver|author5=Ole Waever |author6=Barry Buzan|author7=Professor Ole Wver|title=Regions and Powers: The Structure of International Security|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=N3LfkrrNM4QC&pg=PA55|date=4 December 2003|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-0-521-89111-0|pages=55–}}</ref>}} These scholarly expert books published in top university presses (Cambridge, Oxford) illustrate the academic consensus. [[User:Nauriya|Nauriya]], [[User talk:Nauriya|''Let's talk'']] 16:10, 6th July, 2018 (UTC) |
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:They don't illustrate consensus, you are just misrepresenting sources. [https://books.google.com/books?id=xvCrAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA36&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false Confirms] that India is a regional power. "Great power" is not the point here, there are 1000s of sources saying India is a great power though we don't list it as one yet. If you trying to find sources sharing their opinion contrary to the mainstream opinion about India's status as regional power then consider reading [[WP:FRINGE]]. [[User:Orientls|Orientls]] ([[User talk:Orientls|talk]]) 13:15, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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::{{ping|Nauriya}} we are talking about regional power. Nonetheless your sources don't support the point your are attempting to make here. [[User:Sdmarathe|Sdmarathe]] ([[User talk:Sdmarathe|talk]]) 16:28, 6 July 2018 (UTC) |
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Latest revision as of 15:16, 6 February 2024
![]() | Regional power was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
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Italy as a regional power
@LuigiPortaro29: An Italian who exclusively edits Italy related articles not being blinded with patriotism is very hard to believe. Either way, I highly advised you to revert your last edit because you just broke WP:3RR and you may be reported to WP:AN3 and subsequently blocked. SpaceEconomist 192 13:18, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hello!. As I said you there's nothing to do with patriotism. Italy is in that list since many years here, but I have check the sources of Italy and other countries, in many cases the sources are old/outated. I think is time to found new sources and then delete that countries who aren't regional powers. I would like to hear what other users think about...-- LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 06:40, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- It has everything to do with patriotism, I removed 4 different countries and the only one you added back was precisely your country, Italy. That's great if you want to so a sources review but the sources for Italy are not good, the 36th source is unreliable due to WP:PRIMARY, the 34th and 35th are unreliable due to WP:CONTEXTMATTERS and the 33tth should ideally have a page number and a transcript of the specific text since it's not verifiable for most users. Again, you broke the WP:3RR, I highly advise you to revert your last edit otherwise I will report you to WP:AN3. SpaceEconomist 192 09:32, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with SpaceEconomist192. Luigi is the only user who has deleted Spain from the Southern Europe section, probably because he wants to see Italy as the only country there despite the fact that there are quite a few sources that describe Spain as a regional power in Southern Europe. He also deleted in other articles, despite again the numerous sources, that Spain is a cultural superpower to focus on Italy as the only possible one in Southern Europe.
- Honestly, given his attitude, his neutrality is at least debatable. Venezia Friulano (talk) 12:07, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- I think we have a misunderstanding here. The sources and references used to put Spain in the list says that Spain is a "Middle Power"(which is not the same the concept of Regional Power) They don't mention Spain as a "Regional Power" in Europe. If that the case, that we have to put Spain in this list, we should add Netherlands too, considering is a "Middle Power" and an Economic power in Europe. That's why I think Spain shouldn't be in this list. It's not hard to understand that the only european countries that are full members of the G20, the G7, The Quint, and are considered the big countries of Europe since 1920 are Germany, France, Italy and the UK. These countries are enough to represent the european power, considering that Russia is also on the list. Brunov07 (talk) 03:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Uf, sockpuppeting! Dummy. The Blue Rider
22:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- So that's your response to my opinion. Awesome dude, if seeing Spain in this wikipedia article makes you happy and your life depends on it, good for you then. It's funny because you don't have any single argument for putting Spain in the list, the only reason you do it is because you want to play the patriotic role in this article. It's even more funny because yo put Spain as a member of the G20 when that IS NOT TRUE, and you put the OECD based on what ??? lmaooo. I hope that some admin or moderator see this because this article is a complete joke. Brunov07 (talk) 03:07, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not even Spanish but nice try. Spain has multiple sources describing it as a regional power; middle power = regional power in most contexts. The Blue Rider
01:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not even Spanish but nice try. Spain has multiple sources describing it as a regional power; middle power = regional power in most contexts. The Blue Rider
- So that's your response to my opinion. Awesome dude, if seeing Spain in this wikipedia article makes you happy and your life depends on it, good for you then. It's funny because you don't have any single argument for putting Spain in the list, the only reason you do it is because you want to play the patriotic role in this article. It's even more funny because yo put Spain as a member of the G20 when that IS NOT TRUE, and you put the OECD based on what ??? lmaooo. I hope that some admin or moderator see this because this article is a complete joke. Brunov07 (talk) 03:07, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Uf, sockpuppeting! Dummy. The Blue Rider
- I think we have a misunderstanding here. The sources and references used to put Spain in the list says that Spain is a "Middle Power"(which is not the same the concept of Regional Power) They don't mention Spain as a "Regional Power" in Europe. If that the case, that we have to put Spain in this list, we should add Netherlands too, considering is a "Middle Power" and an Economic power in Europe. That's why I think Spain shouldn't be in this list. It's not hard to understand that the only european countries that are full members of the G20, the G7, The Quint, and are considered the big countries of Europe since 1920 are Germany, France, Italy and the UK. These countries are enough to represent the european power, considering that Russia is also on the list. Brunov07 (talk) 03:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- It has everything to do with patriotism, I removed 4 different countries and the only one you added back was precisely your country, Italy. That's great if you want to so a sources review but the sources for Italy are not good, the 36th source is unreliable due to WP:PRIMARY, the 34th and 35th are unreliable due to WP:CONTEXTMATTERS and the 33tth should ideally have a page number and a transcript of the specific text since it's not verifiable for most users. Again, you broke the WP:3RR, I highly advise you to revert your last edit otherwise I will report you to WP:AN3. SpaceEconomist 192 09:32, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
Spain isn't a regional power,Italy yes.79.23.193.41 (talk) 08:24, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Spain it’s not a member of the G20.
Spain it's not a full member of the G20, it's a permanent invited guest, which it's not the same concept. Even in the official Spanish Foreign Ministry website says that: https://www.exteriores.gob.es/en/PoliticaExterior/Paginas/G20OCDE.aspx. It's not about "sockpuppeting" (which is totally false) it's about not spreading misinformation in Wikipedia. Spain it's NOT a member. It's a guest. So please, take note, and READ the official website of the Spanish government. If in 24 hours I don't get any response, I will delete the G20 tag in Spain. Brunov07 (talk) 23:43, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- User:SpaceEconomist192 Brunov07 (talk) 23:57, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- You use the same arguments, you edit the same articles about Italy, you demonstrate to be too emotionally involved on this with putting everything at CAPS LOCK in of your edits, that is, if you didn't have a past experience, this wouldn't be the case. The Blue Rider
01:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
- You use the same arguments, you edit the same articles about Italy, you demonstrate to be too emotionally involved on this with putting everything at CAPS LOCK in of your edits, that is, if you didn't have a past experience, this wouldn't be the case. The Blue Rider
IS Egypt really not a regional power in North Africa
I remember it being listed here before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.16.187 (talk) 09:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)