Sarah Palin was a Social sciences and society good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
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Intro should include mention of criticism
This article is the parent to all things Wiki about Sarah Palin. The intro should briefly summary the criticisms and controversies in this parent article and all daughter articles, including Public Image, etc. Anything less is a disservice to this article and to Wikipedia. She is a highly polarizing figure and it should be noted up front. - Anon98.92.. 98.92.189.102 (talk) 05:24, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- There are many that would say the same about the intro to Barack Obama. We try to hit the tone of the neutral point of view here, though. This is a biography of a person, not a platform form which to condemn, Tarc (talk) 11:28, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
- Yep, but as it is now, the intro is not neutral but rather overly positive .. as though her press agents wrote it. A neutral view would balance that with mention of criticism etc. -Anon98.92.. 98.92.189.62 (talk) 18:35, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
I also do not think it is accurate to call her a politician because she holds no political office. She should be listed as a former politician, an author and a FOX News contributor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 403calgary403 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- We call George W Bush a politician, although he has not been active for some years now. Plenty of famous people write books and appear on television. Why is Sarah Palin any different? ★Dasani★ 16:27, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
- George W Bush's chief accomplishment was in politics and he doesn't have a current career that eclipses his political life. Palin, on the other hand, has had a relatively short political career and what seems to be a longer (and more recent) private one. If she were running or even considering running for something, I'd change my mind on that.--99.107.242.242 (talk) 11:16, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't think it would be accurate to call George W. Bush, or Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter or Richard Nixon politicians either. Former President would be appropriate, just as former politician or former Governor would be more accurate for Mrs. Palin. To directly answer your question, Sarah Palin isn't any different from the other famous people who appear on television or write books, and that is why we should accurately describe her current and former occupations. She is Currently an author and a FOX News contributor and was Formerly a politician. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 403calgary403 (talk • contribs) 17:10, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- I once thought the same thing. However, as it was pointed out in several archived discussions, the definition of the term "politician" is not limited to those who hold a political office. Zaereth (talk) 19:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Understandable, thanks for the clarification. -JS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 403calgary403 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree that this intro is overly positive about Palin, as though she has all of America behind her. She is a very devisive person in America, and I agree with the above poster that something should be added to balance out the page. JeffreyW75 (talk) 23:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Also, I think the part about her being a "potential candidate" for 2012 should be removed. There are many people out there that haven't declared their candidacy that could be potential candidates. I don't think this should be in the intro, but instead put it down in the body somewhere saying she has been thinking about running and hasn't committed. JeffreyW75 (talk) 23:30, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that the sentence about being a potential candidate should be removed. All we have is speculation, and while that specualtion itself seems to have be become notable, it is not something that defines her notability. However, I disagree that the lede is overly positive. It is simply a factual list of things that she is notable for, which does define her. I see neither an abundance of criticism nor praise there. Perhaps if you could be more specific about what it is that you would change, that would help. Zaereth (talk) 00:03, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think that the following entire section should be deleted from the lede. Too much information for the lede, and just gives minor details of her life and all positive. If it is to be included, put it in the body. "Her book Going Rogue has sold more than two million copies. Since January 2010, she has provided political commentary for Fox News, and hosted a television show, Sarah Palin's Alaska. Five million viewers viewed the first episode, a record for The Learning Channel. Palin is a potential candidate for the 2012 presidential election." JeffreyW75 (talk) 00:25, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think the big issue with the lede is that there is lots of information in it, and cumulatively it is all mainly positive, as though the person has no critics or negative aspects. Shorter would better.JeffreyW75 (talk) 00:28, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- More on this--I don't understand why the statement about her being the first Alaskan to be on the ticket of a major party is in the lede either. For one, she isn't a native Alaskan. For two, that isn't really that important. Maybe if she was a native Alaskan, that would be a different story. A lot of this isn't really big enough to be in the lede, should be in the body text below. And also, calling her an author in the lede seems like a stretch as well, as though she is one of the great authors--I could see it being in the text below, but not big enough to put in the lede. Besides, she had a ghostwriter, Lynn Vincent, an editor at the Christian World magazine. See here: http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2009/10/25/secret_diary_sarah_palins_ghostwriter JeffreyW75 (talk) 00:46, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, the purpose of the lede is to summarize the body of the article, As such, it needs to touch on all of the things that she is notable for. Authoring a book and hosting a TV show seems to fit that description. I see no reason to mention only political achievements. (If there was a ghostwriter, that's still not the same as being an author. If I dictate a memo to my secretary, I am the author, even though she is the writer.)
- I also see nothing positive or negative about fatual statements. It is simply a list of things she is notable for. I would expect the lede in an article on, say ... asperin, to be as factual as an article on wolfsbane. One may appear to be a better medicine than the other, but all we give is the evidence. Whether you see one to be positive and one to be negative is a matter of your own opinion.
- As for your recommendation that the lede be shorter, I agree. Personally, I would divide the lede into a very short lede, and a broader introdution section. Something like I did over at the BFM article. However, consensus has been, thus far, to leave it as it was. Zaereth (talk) 01:29, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Equating a ghost writer to an executive assistant is a false analogy. A ghost writer is an author who uses story and notes provided by a source to create a cogent piece of writing. An assistant transcribes word for word. Referring to SP as an author in the lede is misleading at best, disingenuous at worst. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.52.240.41 (talk) 14:26, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree. From the book, The A-Z of writing and selling, "...a ghostwriter is defined as a professional writer or editor who accepts a finished or partly written script and assists the author to complete the script in a marketable form." The point is that being a writer does not necesarrily make one an author, and visa versa. Also, my secretary does not copy things word for word but, similarly, edits out all my "ums" and "uhs," corrects my grammer, and makes my speech presentable and professional in written form. Zaereth (talk) 16:20, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Weight
Folk are making the argument that we can't mention the McGinniss book due to WP:WEIGHT: Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. If that is the case, then we would also be giving excess weight to topics which have received less attention than the book and its author. ["Sarah Palin" "Joe McGinniss"] gets 426 hits in the Proquest newspaper archive. By comparison ["Sarah Palin" "Randy Ruedrich"] gets 274 hits, ["Sarah Palin" "India Today"] receives 50 hits, and ["Sarah Palin" "10 Most Fascinating People of 2008"] gets 12 hits. Should we delete those? Will Beback talk 03:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- As per WP policy, hit counts prove nothing with regard to notability, see Wikipedia:Search_engine_test#Notability. This is one of the reasons that cleaning up this article is such a chore.Jarhed (talk) 07:32, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- "Notability", in Wikipedia usage, generally concerns whether or not to have an article. "Weight" concerns how much space to devote to subtopics within an article. This discussion concerns the latter, not the former. WP:WEIGHT is based on coverage in independent sources. How do you propose to determine weight, if not by coverage in newspapers? Will Beback talk 05:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Coverage by RSs is an important element of weight. Search engine hit count is not a good way to determine coverage as per the article.Jarhed (talk) 16:19, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Notability", in Wikipedia usage, generally concerns whether or not to have an article. "Weight" concerns how much space to devote to subtopics within an article. This discussion concerns the latter, not the former. WP:WEIGHT is based on coverage in independent sources. How do you propose to determine weight, if not by coverage in newspapers? Will Beback talk 05:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- My read between-the-lines during that discussion was an objection to spurious insertion of the unsubstantiated content itself from the book, i.e. getting the camel's nose under the tent on the salacious content. If there is to be a reference section for third-party materials on the BLP subject, McGinniss does fit in that category... however, it could and should be done without providing a vehicle or credence to the content itself. Someone interested in doing so could easily craft a statement and wikilink to the book, to its reviews and to Palin's refutation, without having to air those scurrilous and unsubstantiated allegations of sexual escapades and illicit drug use. "After spending two years in Alaska living next to Palin, Joe McGinnis wrote an unflattering biography Book Name that was panned by literary sources including NY Times Article as not credible and was refuted by Palin herself Wherever She Did That." I presume there's a WP article on the book itself, so anyone interested in reading the salacious content could find that. Fcreid (talk) 10:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- I consider the book to be on a par with the porno film which some sought to include in the BLP. BLPs are not supposed to be factioid collections - they should be actually related to the biography of a living person. [1], which was also "covered" in reliable sources. Existence != valid reason for inclusion in a BLP unless the material actually adds understanding of the subject of the biography for the reader. Else, all BLPs would be middens (some of them already are, alas). Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:35, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Collect here, except that I dont know what a middens is. The relevant section from wp:weight (again) says: "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news." I really dont see how the mere fact that someone wrote a book about Palin qualifies as significant to the subject and, frankly, I think that Will BeBack is being tendentious at this point. Bonewah (talk) 11:41, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly. We should mention topics of significance. How significant is Palin's stance on the Iraq Surge compared to an actual biography written about her? Will Beback talk 05:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Wonderful -- your apparent assertion that the McGinniss book is an "actual biography." OK folks -- how many feel it is an "actual biography"? !votes solicited below. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:25, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly. We should mention topics of significance. How significant is Palin's stance on the Iraq Surge compared to an actual biography written about her? Will Beback talk 05:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Collect here, except that I dont know what a middens is. The relevant section from wp:weight (again) says: "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news." I really dont see how the mere fact that someone wrote a book about Palin qualifies as significant to the subject and, frankly, I think that Will BeBack is being tendentious at this point. Bonewah (talk) 11:41, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- For the record, my comment above was meant to address the singular point of material inclusion while avoiding the litany of BLP violations that categorically listing McGinnis' unsubstantiated assertions would introduce to the article. I'm not the guy to debate policy matters, particularly on weight and notability, as those too easily become subjective and confrontational. Fcreid (talk) 12:21, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- I !vote against this article becoming a midden. :-)Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:00, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- Great, then let's get rid of the minor stuff, like Randy Ruedrich. Will Beback talk 05:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm guessing this must be a facetious comment, Will - all of the "actual biographies" like Benet's Trailblazer, Johnson's Sarah, Conroy & Walshe's Sarah from Alaska, and Palin's own Going Rogue credit the AOGCC ethics battle with Reudrich as the event that propelled her to statewide prominence and eventually put her in the Governor's mansion. I don't think some tabloidy nonsense about a widely-panned attack book really rises to the same level of weight in terms of significance to the subject of the biography. Kelly hi! 15:46, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Especially one whose author's publicly stated objective was to destroy Palin's public persona. I have no idea where such a book deserves mention, but it is certainly not in a BLP.Jarhed (talk) 16:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- Shouldn´t it be at "Book and media coverage about Sarah Palin" under Public Image at the bottom of this article? As a link to the Joe McGinniss page.Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- The book is an "actual biography", inherently. Whether you think it's accurate is irrelevant to that term. What we personally think about the book is irrelevant. It is notable in the context of her public image, certainly far more than a lot of the trivia crammed into the article currently. The article goes out of its way to brag on how many copies of her books she's sold, etc, and makes unnecessary comparisons with other governors, autobiographers, etc, to the point of reading like a puff piece. Every time any criticism is raised, the article goes out of its way to rebut it. Let's try to at least give the appearance of being NPOV and include everything, not just the stuff that makes her look good. It's just as bad as someone trying to make the article overly negative. Saying someone wrote a book about her is a factual statement. it doesn't imply the book was correct, or that he's a fantastic author any more than saying she has two books under her name implies that she's a real author of any merit.204.65.34.224 (talk) 13:46, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
- Shouldn´t it be at "Book and media coverage about Sarah Palin" under Public Image at the bottom of this article? As a link to the Joe McGinniss page.Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:25, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- Especially one whose author's publicly stated objective was to destroy Palin's public persona. I have no idea where such a book deserves mention, but it is certainly not in a BLP.Jarhed (talk) 16:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm guessing this must be a facetious comment, Will - all of the "actual biographies" like Benet's Trailblazer, Johnson's Sarah, Conroy & Walshe's Sarah from Alaska, and Palin's own Going Rogue credit the AOGCC ethics battle with Reudrich as the event that propelled her to statewide prominence and eventually put her in the Governor's mansion. I don't think some tabloidy nonsense about a widely-panned attack book really rises to the same level of weight in terms of significance to the subject of the biography. Kelly hi! 15:46, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Great, then let's get rid of the minor stuff, like Randy Ruedrich. Will Beback talk 05:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- I !vote against this article becoming a midden. :-)Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:00, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- For the record, my comment above was meant to address the singular point of material inclusion while avoiding the litany of BLP violations that categorically listing McGinnis' unsubstantiated assertions would introduce to the article. I'm not the guy to debate policy matters, particularly on weight and notability, as those too easily become subjective and confrontational. Fcreid (talk) 12:21, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
No Run for President in 2012
- CNN:Palin will not seek presidential nomination
- Advocate:Palin will not run for president in 2012 92.252.48.199 (talk) 11:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Palin will not run for President in 2012. 92.252.48.199 (talk) 11:38, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Proposed lifting of community probation
FYI, I have proposed the lifting of the Sarah Palin-related community probation here. Kelly hi! 00:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
- Now lifted, per Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive227#Proposed lifting of Sarah Palin community probation. Will Beback talk 23:38, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Collaboration
A collaboration is being organized to promote this article to GA. Interested editors should join the discussion here. – Lionel (talk) 02:31, 17 October 2011 (UTC)