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Suggestions
Here are some suggestions as to how this article can grow:
- who first coined the name, (not that it's not obvious)
- a bit about 'the map' that used to be in the middle of silicon alley reporter
- list of silicon alley companies (as a seperate wikipedia entry)
- more information about publications, including alley cat news
- the party scene
Theinfo 04:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Eras vs. Years
I don't think the distinction between Web1.0 vs. Web2.0 has been clearly delineated here. Remember, only 53,651 people care about, or even know about Web2.0. Wikipedia is designed to be for a wider audience. Let's break this down by years instead of by eras.
Thanks, Alex Haislip
Map request
The term is kind of a metaphor--I personally don't think that a map is appropriate, except for a photo of 'the map' of Silicon Alley from Silicon Alley Reporter. Theinfo 05:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Biotech
content about biotech in NYC was added here. Silicon Alley is tech, like Silicon Valley is. There was nothing in the refs provided there that tied biotech to Silicon Alley; that was pure WP:SYN. Removed it, as well as mention from the lead. Silicon =/= living stuff; not biotech. there are some Health IT companies in Silicon Alley and part of the digital business scene in NYC. Health IT =/= biotech either. Jytdog (talk) 18:19, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- User: Castncoot please provide a chunk of refs supporting your view that biotech is a meaningful part of Silicon Alley. Please note that we look at the preponderance of sources so cherry-picking will do you no good. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 18:25, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- The protocol in Wikipedia is to add a citation-needed tag, rather than deletion of large amounts of longstanding material. And of course Silicon Valley includes biotech. Castncoot (talk) 18:32, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- The protocol is to remove WP:OR. Jytdog (talk) 20:00, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- Here are the refs in the article
- business insider - all tech. no biotech
- NY Daily News - all tech; no biotech
- CNN: "New York has made a lot of the digital age. The city hosts a thriving tech sector with 300,000 employees -- on par with Silicon Valley -- and city government is praised for its use of analytics in evaluating all manner of programs." all tech. no biotech
- "Venture Investment - Regional Aggregate Data - probably includes some biotech. source is not about Silicon Alley so that is fine
- NYT about ted cruz - this is ref and the content about it is bizarre. nothing to do with silicon alley or biotech
- AP piece on environment - bizarre. nothing to do with silicon alley or biotech
- NYT on climate change protests on environment - bizarre. nothing to do with silicon alley or biotech
- NYC EDC plan for telecom - all about tech; nothing about biotech
- wi-fi expansion in harlem - tech; not biotech
- office space coworking - a tech thing. all tech, no mention of biotech (which need wetlabs, not desks for coworking). And on those go.
- The protocol in Wikipedia is to add a citation-needed tag, rather than deletion of large amounts of longstanding material. And of course Silicon Valley includes biotech. Castncoot (talk) 18:32, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- The content added about biotech says nothing about silicon alley. Refs for that
- well, nothing for the first sentence. Unsourced.
- Next two are about Cornell tech campus, which is engineering. Not biotech, no wetlabs. When I edited to remove biotech, i left this in, per this dif, as it has nothing to do with biotech and should not be in this paragraph
- NYT ref no mention of biotech. all about tech
- cornell chronicle - all about tech; no biotech
- WSJ article on Alexandria Center. Nothing to do with tech or Silicon Alley. Funded by life science (not tech) VC; about the biotech (not tech) activities there. So there is only one ref that ~could~ support inclusion, and it doesn't.
- The content added about biotech says nothing about silicon alley. Refs for that
- This biotech stuff is 100% WP:OR as it stands; there are no refs in the article supporting the inclusion of biotech in the article now, and you have brought none. Jytdog (talk) 20:00, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- Silicon Alley, like Silicon Valley, no longer applies to a small area with hard and fast boundaries, as also alluded to by an editor in the previous section on this talk page. It certainly applies to all of Manhattan (which includes Roosevelt Island)[1] and some parts of Brooklyn, at the very least. Castncoot (talk) 20:58, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- More significantly, can I seriously ask you the following question and request you to answer it, which you have evaded thus far: what perplexes me more than anything else about this issue on this and other pages that we have incurred over the past 18 (give or take) hours or so, is - why are you grinding this axe here, rather than addressing the source which ultimately supports my argument - namely, the first line of the biotechnology article? Shouldn't you be waging your battle there? I'm simply editing according to the premise that that longstanding defining statement of that article has achieved consensus for. As long as that definition sticks, I don't understand your case. Biotechnology (biological technology) is and has always been merely one among other forms of technology. Castncoot (talk) 23:23, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- I have already explained why biotech =/= tech to you several times. The word "technology" being included in "biotechnology" means nothing. The fact that biotechnology is applied biology means nothing. The industries are completely different, as I have said many times. "tech industry" means IT/digital etc. It doesn't mean biotech. Silicon Valley is tech industry. So is Silicon Alley. "Silicon" signifies computer chips. Tech.
- To the point. You don't have a single ref that connects biotech to Silicon Alley. The Biotech Now blurb is one thing; we don't know what Nathan actually said there as the podcast is gone, but you can bet it was along these lines. Please bring several refs, because the vast majority of the refs discussing Silicon Alley discuss tech, and say nothing about biotech. The WP:BURDEN is on you to show that biotech belongs here. Jytdog (talk) 23:35, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
- More refs: NYC Tech Economy based on this report - digital
- slate on the NYC tech boom - digitial, which is focused on the NYC Tech Meetup, which I have been to, and which is all about digital
- Xconomy article on the NYC tech scene - all digital.
- service provider for Silicon Alley - tech and digital
- NYT article on death of Silicon Alley Magazine, which was "known for its unabashed boosterism of New York's new media entrepreneurs" ("new media" = "digital" ie tech)
- NYC EDC report on the tech sector. Contrast with this, the life sciences sector report, which is completely different. Jytdog (talk) 00:05, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
- These references don't alter the fundamental definition of biotechnology. And please don't make up your own rules about refs as you go along. Statements on Wikipedia can be justified in two ways: WP:RS (which there in fact is), or WP:wikilinks to an established page whose statement(s) then support the point, in this case, the biotechnology page. So it is now your WP:BURDEN to disprove or disenfranchise that longstanding consensused statement on the biotechnology page, an issue which you have relentlessly evaded (despite my repeated referencing) over the 24 hours or so ago since our interaction began regarding this issue, which in no uncertain terms, in the title sentence, defines biotechnology as, '"any technological application that uses biological systems, living organisms or derivatives thereof, to make or modify products or processes for specific use" (UN Convention on Biological Diversity, Art. 2)'. Once you are able to convince the numerous editors of that sentinel page of your unique interpretation of the term biotechnology, then please return to argue the fundamentally changed definition here. Castncoot (talk) 00:17, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
- What you are refusing to hear is that the tech industry does not include biotech; you keep relying on this dictionary thing which has nothing to do with RW business as reflected in the many RS I have brought. You have brought none. The inclusion of biotech in this article is still OR. Only ~45 people have this article on their watchlist which is not much; if other folks don't weigh in a few days I will start to escalate the DR process. Jytdog (talk) 00:39, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
- These references don't alter the fundamental definition of biotechnology. And please don't make up your own rules about refs as you go along. Statements on Wikipedia can be justified in two ways: WP:RS (which there in fact is), or WP:wikilinks to an established page whose statement(s) then support the point, in this case, the biotechnology page. So it is now your WP:BURDEN to disprove or disenfranchise that longstanding consensused statement on the biotechnology page, an issue which you have relentlessly evaded (despite my repeated referencing) over the 24 hours or so ago since our interaction began regarding this issue, which in no uncertain terms, in the title sentence, defines biotechnology as, '"any technological application that uses biological systems, living organisms or derivatives thereof, to make or modify products or processes for specific use" (UN Convention on Biological Diversity, Art. 2)'. Once you are able to convince the numerous editors of that sentinel page of your unique interpretation of the term biotechnology, then please return to argue the fundamentally changed definition here. Castncoot (talk) 00:17, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
User:Castncoot I have let this sit awhile. Apparently nobody watching this other than you and I care about this. I am going to open a thread on this at ORN, but before I do I wanted to see if you still object to removing the biotech stuff from this article. Jytdog (talk) 12:32, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- By your own words and logic, wouldn't you actually be supporting my point? After all, I'm not relying on "this dictionary thing which has nothing to do with RW business "; I'm actually relying on the base biotechnology article on Wikipedia. I guess we're still awaiting neutral party Ɱ's analysis of this matter. Let's wait for that analysis first. Look, let's work together and let's not be adversarial here. Let's both take a deep breath, take a step back, and look at the forest through the trees. I actually have to (sincerely) thank you for prompting me to start a separate "Biotech companies in New York" (Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area) article. It really opened my eyes in creating this because I had no idea that there were indeed so many! And there are still many more to add! What I really I don't understand is, and I wish you'd loosen up a little on your ideology about this, why would you revert a see also addition of this biotech article on the Silicon Alley page here? "See also" sections are intended to relate to articles that may be at the very least tangential but yet related. The "Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area" meets that criteria well more than that very minimum. I really believe that you're taking an extreme viewpoint here rather than being reasonably accommodating. I've already started an entirely new "Biotech companies in New York" article (not an insignificant undertaking) at your suggestion, but you won't even compromise or acquiesce to a much less onerous "see also" request, of all things. Best, Castncoot (talk) 15:44, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
- note: Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Another_business_thing Jytdog (talk) 12:20, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
- User:Castncoot ORN has brought nothing useful. I'm trying to decide between two things. You and I could go to WP:MEDIATION and work with one of the people there to try to come to agreement. Alternative, I would propose a variation of WP:THIRD, in which each of us would pick one person to weigh in (who we think would be knowledgeable and fair), and those two would pick a third together, and the three of them will decide if the content stays or goes. Would you like to go one of those two ways, or perhaps another? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:31, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- User:Jytdog, I believe that the very fact that you acknowledged that more "fog" than less was added at Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Another_business_thing supports giving inclusion of Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area in the "See also" section of Silicon Alley the benefit of the doubt, wouldn't you agree? Clearly the input that others have given so far since the inception of this discussion have suggested at minimum blurred lines between "tech" and "biotech" or a lack of certainty about the issue. I have what may be a better idea. Why don't we bring up the following question on the Biotechnology talk page: "Is it reasonable to include Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area in the "see also" section of the Silicon Alley page?" We'll undoubtedly receive more feedback there. In fact, let me go ahead and start that discussion there. Castncoot (talk) 03:29, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- No, that just shows that the person commenting didn't take that much time and had no backgroudn understanding. I am getting tired of random feedback, which is why I asked about doing a deliberate DR like the mediation board or third party. So which would you like to do? Jytdog (talk) 03:45, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- As you know, the discussion has now begun at Talk:Biotechnology#Comparison of terminology: "Biotechnology" vs "Technology". Castncoot (talk) 04:18, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- No, what happened is that you unilaterally opened a thread that incorrectly described the dispute and my position, and I told you that. There is no discussion there yet. It is unlikely anything will come of that, but we'll see. Jytdog (talk) 06:31, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- Which I have every right to do (open a thread on a Talk page). And I described your position spot on accurately, demonstrating diffs. I don't need your "permission" for that. Finally, there's obviously a discussion there if you, I, and another editor have already made comments. Castncoot (talk) 00:43, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Of course, you completely free to exacerbate the dispute instead of working together to solve it. Do you notice that i gave you advance notice before filing at ORN, and above tried to discuss next steps? You do not understand how this place works. Whatever. Jytdog (talk) 01:38, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- Which I have every right to do (open a thread on a Talk page). And I described your position spot on accurately, demonstrating diffs. I don't need your "permission" for that. Finally, there's obviously a discussion there if you, I, and another editor have already made comments. Castncoot (talk) 00:43, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
- No, what happened is that you unilaterally opened a thread that incorrectly described the dispute and my position, and I told you that. There is no discussion there yet. It is unlikely anything will come of that, but we'll see. Jytdog (talk) 06:31, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- As you know, the discussion has now begun at Talk:Biotechnology#Comparison of terminology: "Biotechnology" vs "Technology". Castncoot (talk) 04:18, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- No, that just shows that the person commenting didn't take that much time and had no backgroudn understanding. I am getting tired of random feedback, which is why I asked about doing a deliberate DR like the mediation board or third party. So which would you like to do? Jytdog (talk) 03:45, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
- User:Castncoot the discussion at the biotech article has now gone a week with no further comment. We need to engage in a more formal DR process. I offered two options above -- you and I could go to WP:MEDIATION and work with one of the people there to try to come to agreement. Alternatively, I would propose a variation of WP:THIRD, in which each of us would pick one person to weigh in (who we think would be knowledgeable and fair), and those two would pick a third together, and the three of them will decide if the content stays or goes. Would you please let me know how you would like to proceed? Thx. Jytdog (talk) 07:55, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
- Please continue this discussion at the Talk:Biotechnology article. We can't be jumping back and forth. The fact that people haven't commented further so far indicates that there is no consensus (or even appetite) to change the longstanding status quo of the disputed content in either article. You're trying to force your viewpoint, one which nobody else seems to want. We should stop right here for now. Castncoot (talk) 12:34, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
- Discussion is not proceeding at the biotechnology article; the one person who did weigh in there agreed with me more than you, but we are unlikely to get more active participation there to resolve our dispute. Please hear me - WP:DR is a behavioral policy. You cannot refuse to pursue DR and remain an editor in good standing. Please let me know what DR process you will agree to follow. If you don't reply I will initiate an effort at mediation. Jytdog (talk) 14:48, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
- If you look up WP:DR, it's actually a process, not a specifically determined pathway; utilizing the normal talk channels is the healthiest and most optimal form of the DR process; this discussion squarely belongs to continue at the Talk:Biotechnology#Comparison of terminology: "Biotechnology" vs "Technology" page, because the first line of that article page (Biotechnology) contains the fundamental premise upon which you base your argument. Also, as you said on the Talk:Tech companies in the New York metropolitan area page: "Castncoot, you framed this like it is dire. Others will weigh in with time. There are no deadlines here." [2] It looks now like you are the one making the situation seem dire, when the reality is that nobody wants to change the fundamental longstanding status quo interpretation and acknowledgement of the term biotechnology, other than you. (By the way, I disagree that the one person agreed more with you than with me; I believe that the other person was more aligned with my viewpoint stressing reasonableness than with your interpretation stressing a draconian narrowness.) Castncoot (talk) 03:35, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
- This has been going on since Nov 1; we have tried ORN and the talk page of another article as well as this article and have gotten minimal input which is not surprising, based on the nature of this issue. It is time to engage a more formal process. I will initiate a mediation over the weekend. Jytdog (talk) 03:44, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
- Mmmm, check your timeline. I only introduced the discussion at Talk:Biotechnology#Comparison of terminology: "Biotechnology" vs "Technology" on December 5th, not even two weeks ago. The fundamental problem here is that you don't understand (or simply refuse to acknowledge) that you must build a WP:CONSENSUS for your desired WP:BOLD changes. You haven't been able to do that, as nobody is willing to step that far out on a limb as to support your extreme viewpoint. I cannot help it if you just don't like that. Castncoot (talk) 03:53, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
- Look up the page. I opened this section on Nov 1 after i removed the content about biotech and you restored it. As I said, if you don't choose the "third party" option I will open a mediation over the weekend. Jytdog (talk)
- [3]. The introduction of the primary discussion on the sentinel page regarding your argument for redefinition of the longstanding status quo. Castncoot (talk) 21:58, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
- 'This content dispute - on whether to include discussion of biotech in this article - started on November 1 when I made this change to this article and you reverted it and we had this discussion on this page, which I opened. Jytdog (talk) 23:36, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
- No, you fail to acknowledge all of the details, yet again. The fundamental content dispute actually started before that on November 1, with this edit [4] which you made on the Tech companies in the New York metropolitan area page, which fundamentally laid the premise for all of your subsequent actions and discussions on five different article and/or talk pages, which ultimately prompted me to bring and unify the discussion onto the specifically definitive and appropriate Talk:Biotechnology#Comparison of terminology: "Biotechnology" vs "Technology" page to address your fundamental premise, on December 5, with this edit: [5]. I will repeat what I just said above, that the fundamental problem here is that you don't understand (or simply refuse to acknowledge) that you must build a WP:CONSENSUS for your desired WP:BOLD changes to the longstanding status quo. You haven't been able to do that, as nobody is willing to step that far out on a limb as to support your extreme viewpoint. I cannot help it if you just don't like that. I'm also tired of arguing in circles on this particular page, something you seem to be pursuing rather than trying to build your needed consensus. Castncoot (talk) 05:37, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
- I have not proposed any changes to the Biotechnology article; it is fine. We have no content dispute on that article. As I said I will initiate a mediation over our content dispute on this page -- the only active one we have as far as I know -- on Sunday. Jytdog (talk) 12:31, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
- Please don't continue to misrepresent the situation. We have a content dispute on three pages: Tech companies in the New York metropolitan area, Biotechnology, given that that particular page would have to be changed in order for you to execute your proposed changes on Silicon Alley and for you to continue to prevent refs from being placed on Silicon Alley and content on Tech companies in the New York metropolitan area; as well as Silicon Alley. What happens on the base Talk:Biotechnology#Comparison of terminology: "Biotechnology" vs "Technology" page will determine everything else. However, because I believe that the policy of WP:CONSENSUS needs to be respected, I would tolerate the status quo if no consensus for change is reached, and so far, nobody is interested in changing anything. Castncoot (talk) 17:32, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
- I have not proposed any changes to the Biotechnology article; it is fine. We have no content dispute on that article. As I said I will initiate a mediation over our content dispute on this page -- the only active one we have as far as I know -- on Sunday. Jytdog (talk) 12:31, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
- No, you fail to acknowledge all of the details, yet again. The fundamental content dispute actually started before that on November 1, with this edit [4] which you made on the Tech companies in the New York metropolitan area page, which fundamentally laid the premise for all of your subsequent actions and discussions on five different article and/or talk pages, which ultimately prompted me to bring and unify the discussion onto the specifically definitive and appropriate Talk:Biotechnology#Comparison of terminology: "Biotechnology" vs "Technology" page to address your fundamental premise, on December 5, with this edit: [5]. I will repeat what I just said above, that the fundamental problem here is that you don't understand (or simply refuse to acknowledge) that you must build a WP:CONSENSUS for your desired WP:BOLD changes to the longstanding status quo. You haven't been able to do that, as nobody is willing to step that far out on a limb as to support your extreme viewpoint. I cannot help it if you just don't like that. I'm also tired of arguing in circles on this particular page, something you seem to be pursuing rather than trying to build your needed consensus. Castncoot (talk) 05:37, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
- 'This content dispute - on whether to include discussion of biotech in this article - started on November 1 when I made this change to this article and you reverted it and we had this discussion on this page, which I opened. Jytdog (talk) 23:36, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
- [3]. The introduction of the primary discussion on the sentinel page regarding your argument for redefinition of the longstanding status quo. Castncoot (talk) 21:58, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
- Look up the page. I opened this section on Nov 1 after i removed the content about biotech and you restored it. As I said, if you don't choose the "third party" option I will open a mediation over the weekend. Jytdog (talk)
- Mmmm, check your timeline. I only introduced the discussion at Talk:Biotechnology#Comparison of terminology: "Biotechnology" vs "Technology" on December 5th, not even two weeks ago. The fundamental problem here is that you don't understand (or simply refuse to acknowledge) that you must build a WP:CONSENSUS for your desired WP:BOLD changes. You haven't been able to do that, as nobody is willing to step that far out on a limb as to support your extreme viewpoint. I cannot help it if you just don't like that. Castncoot (talk) 03:53, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
- This has been going on since Nov 1; we have tried ORN and the talk page of another article as well as this article and have gotten minimal input which is not surprising, based on the nature of this issue. It is time to engage a more formal process. I will initiate a mediation over the weekend. Jytdog (talk) 03:44, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
- If you look up WP:DR, it's actually a process, not a specifically determined pathway; utilizing the normal talk channels is the healthiest and most optimal form of the DR process; this discussion squarely belongs to continue at the Talk:Biotechnology#Comparison of terminology: "Biotechnology" vs "Technology" page, because the first line of that article page (Biotechnology) contains the fundamental premise upon which you base your argument. Also, as you said on the Talk:Tech companies in the New York metropolitan area page: "Castncoot, you framed this like it is dire. Others will weigh in with time. There are no deadlines here." [2] It looks now like you are the one making the situation seem dire, when the reality is that nobody wants to change the fundamental longstanding status quo interpretation and acknowledgement of the term biotechnology, other than you. (By the way, I disagree that the one person agreed more with you than with me; I believe that the other person was more aligned with my viewpoint stressing reasonableness than with your interpretation stressing a draconian narrowness.) Castncoot (talk) 03:35, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
- Discussion is not proceeding at the biotechnology article; the one person who did weigh in there agreed with me more than you, but we are unlikely to get more active participation there to resolve our dispute. Please hear me - WP:DR is a behavioral policy. You cannot refuse to pursue DR and remain an editor in good standing. Please let me know what DR process you will agree to follow. If you don't reply I will initiate an effort at mediation. Jytdog (talk) 14:48, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
- Please continue this discussion at the Talk:Biotechnology article. We can't be jumping back and forth. The fact that people haven't commented further so far indicates that there is no consensus (or even appetite) to change the longstanding status quo of the disputed content in either article. You're trying to force your viewpoint, one which nobody else seems to want. We should stop right here for now. Castncoot (talk) 12:34, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
I do hear what you are saying (that this is a dispute about fundamental definition that has wide effects throughout WP and on the Biotechnology article specifically). I'll make a note of this when I file the request for mediation, and the mediators will help work this out. Jytdog (talk) 19:07, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
- Now that you finally "hear me" that "this is a dispute about fundamental definition that has wide effects throughout WP and on the Biotechnology article specifically", I hope you'll realize that you're doing things in reverse order. What you should be doing is developing consensus on the Talk:Biotechnology page; but so far, you've shown little real effort along that front. That's the normal procedure which occurs day in and day out, but for some reason, you're effectively circumventing that to seek formal mediation. I'm sorry, but although I believe that formal mediation can be a very effective tool that has its appropriate indications, I also believe that pursuing it so prematurely steers well astray of standard WP:DR norms. Castncoot (talk) 01:57, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- I have heard you the whole time. We don't agree on anything. As I have said it is you, and you alone, who thinks the Biotechnology article would have to change if this article changes. You and I have no dispute at that article. Will open the mediation tomorrow about the dispute we actually have and will note your concerns about its broader implications. Jytdog (talk) 06:14, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Now that you finally "hear me" that "this is a dispute about fundamental definition that has wide effects throughout WP and on the Biotechnology article specifically", I hope you'll realize that you're doing things in reverse order. What you should be doing is developing consensus on the Talk:Biotechnology page; but so far, you've shown little real effort along that front. That's the normal procedure which occurs day in and day out, but for some reason, you're effectively circumventing that to seek formal mediation. I'm sorry, but although I believe that formal mediation can be a very effective tool that has its appropriate indications, I also believe that pursuing it so prematurely steers well astray of standard WP:DR norms. Castncoot (talk) 01:57, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
IMHO, the only way to resolve this disagreement is with reliable sources, not with definitions used in other Wikipedia articles. It seems to me, the critical question is the geographical extent of Silicon Alley. According to these sources:
- Gallagher, Feral (4 November 2015). "The mysterious origins of the term Silicon Alley revealed". BuiltInNYC.
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Different areas of New York City in Brooklyn and Manhattan have been referred to as Silicon Alley, and it has now spread to be more of a concept than a specific location. It refers now to the parts of NYC which are becoming communities of tech-based companies, professionals, and engineers.
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There are a variety of opinions that include (1) it is an obsolete term that only applies to the initial pre dot com boom restricted to the Flatiron District and (2) the revived tech startup scene in New York stretches to the four corners of all five boroughs, into New Jersey. Hence it is debatable if Silicon Alley still even exists and if it does, what is its current geographical extent. The following source states there are a few, recently established biotechs in Manhattan, but does not specifically refer to these as part of Silicon Alley:
- O'Connell, Ainsley (24 May 2015). "The Big Apple's Biotech Dreams Are Stuck In The Petri Dish". Fast Company Magazine.
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Including "Celmatix"., that does do wet laboratory work, but in Brooklyn, not Manhattan. So it is a stretch to maintain this company does biotech work inside of Silicon Alley. In addition, a biotech incubatorjust opened in Harlem (Upper Manhattan):
- "Harlem Biospace".
A new biotech incubator concept, right in Manhattan
with wet lab space and tenants:
So biotech companies do in fact exist in Manhattan, but these have been founded only very recently, are tiny, and are outside of the Flatiron District. It is pretty clear that no biotech companies existed in the pre dot com Silicon Alley. Given biotechs are a recent and still relatively minor addition to NYC tech, per WP:UNDUE, I think it would be misleading to mention biotech in the lead. IMHO, biotechs could be mentioned later in the article if the above caveats are also mentioned. Boghog (talk) 12:38, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- I'm glad you've entered the discussion here. I think the fact that this article has for years survived acknowledging that the original compact boundaries of Silicon Alley are obsolete and that the term really applies to the a significant portion of the NYC metro area (including Northern and Central New Jersey) says a lot. In fact, as far back as 2007, this editor has alluded to this phenomenon: [6]. So given the premise that geographically speaking at least, Silicon Alley applies to a large area of the New York City metro area, (just like Silicon Valley applies to an area comprising much of the San Francisco Bay Area) and no longer is parochially limited to a few streets in the Flatiron district, the question then progresses to how much biotech exists in said area. Well, just like you, I had, until just last month, been under the impression that there was very little. But then, once User:Jytdog would not allow me to place biotech companies in the Tech companies in the New York metropolitan area article ([7]), I was forced last month to create a Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area article, which I'm actually very happy that I did, because it opened my eyes to just how many biotech companies have emerged in the core NYC metro area in recent years. If you look at this ref [8], you'll see that there are now a TON of biotech companies in Manhattan (and a few in Brooklyn). Incidentally, New Jersey has a ton as well now,[9] and many of them within a 25-mile radius of Manhattan. As you have cited reliable sources above indicating that Silicon Alley has indeed stretched far beyond its initial Flatiron District boundaries, then I believe you are obligated to give the broadest license within legitimacy and the benefit of the doubt to the view that Silicon Alley can legitimately refer to the tech sphere throughout a reasonable distance from Manhattan. This indicates that, if one is among the significant group of people who believe that the geography of Silicon Alley has expanded over the years, then no matter how one parses the equation, there are now many, many biotech companies in "Silicon Alley" (perhaps more than NON-bio techs!). The only question therefore remaining (IMHO) is User:Jytdog's contention that "biotech is not tech". Also, Jytdog has not allowed me to insert the following ref in this article [10] or allowed me to include Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area as a mere "see also" entry, FYI. Castncoot (talk) 14:03, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- By the way, with all due respect, we also do need to honor the P/G of WP:WikiVoice. So if the base biotechnology article (by consensus, and citing in the first line the United Nations, of all organizations) defines it as being a form of tech, that can't simply be ignored. That is a highly seminal point. Castncoot (talk) 14:11, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- I also have reliable sources that state that Silicon Alley died with the dot com bust and no longer exists. In addition, your list of New York biotech companies is highly misleading. Many have their corporate headquarters located within Manhattan, but research laboratories and production facilities outside NYC. This is in stark contrast to the Silicon Alley IT companies whose entire operation was located within NYC. To this day, Biotech R&D within NYC remains tiny. Boghog (talk) 14:40, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Boghog, Manhattan is extremely expensive for lab space; that's why many of these companies lease lab space in Central New Jersey, but high-level decisions are often made in Manhattan. Furthermore, the National Venture Capital Association considers the New York metropolitan area (which includes Central Jersey) to be a single geographic entity for venture capital funding ([11]). Castncoot (talk) 21:28, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly, because lab space is so expensive in Manhattan, it is never likely to be home to a significant amount of biotech R&D. Furthermore, it is really a stretch to claim that central New Jersey is part of Silicon Alley. Boghog (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Why do you say that? San Francisco is often lumped in with Silicon Valley, where San Jose is actually 45 miles away, farther than Middlesex County, New Jersey is to Manhattan (20 miles). Castncoot (talk) 21:56, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly, because lab space is so expensive in Manhattan, it is never likely to be home to a significant amount of biotech R&D. Furthermore, it is really a stretch to claim that central New Jersey is part of Silicon Alley. Boghog (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Boghog, Manhattan is extremely expensive for lab space; that's why many of these companies lease lab space in Central New Jersey, but high-level decisions are often made in Manhattan. Furthermore, the National Venture Capital Association considers the New York metropolitan area (which includes Central Jersey) to be a single geographic entity for venture capital funding ([11]). Castncoot (talk) 21:28, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for engaging Boghog. I don't know that "Silicon Alley" is dead and that is outside of this dispute. How big the biotech industry is in NYC is also outside the dispute (it is indeed very small compared to SF/Boston/San Diego)
- The dispute is whether "Silicon Alley" includes biotech. As you can see, in Castncoot's way of working in WP, the concept of biotech is included in the concept of "tech" which is what "Silicon Alley" is about, so based on this definitional chain biotech companies are included in the concept of Silicon Alley. I've tried to explain to Castncoot that their "conception" that "tech" includes "biotech" is incorrect, and more importantly that refs do not describe Silicon Alley as included biotech. The latter is all that really matters in WP. A pile of refs are below; there are plenty more. Jytdog (talk) 20:23, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Your refs below, Jytdog, don't redefine biotech as not being tech. Boghog himself says above, "Given biotechs are a recent and still relatively minor addition to NYC tech", suggesting that he also ultimately considers biotech to fundamentally be a form of tech. Also, I think it's frankly frivolous that you're making unsourced and irrelevant comparisons above to "SF/Boston/San Diego". This isn't a comparison match with other cities or their own biotech spheres, although frankly as well, with the recent growth in NYC area's biotech sphere, it's probably well in the top three or four, and if anything, my references ([12], [13], and [14]) support the now-large number of biotechs that have indeed sprouted in Silicon Alley. And Jytdog, now that someone else is actively observing this conversation, you finally won't be able to avoid answering my nth iteration of the same question: how do you reconcile your contention that biotech is decidedly not tech with the editorially consensused definition in the first line of the biotechnology article indicating in WP:WikiVoice that biotech is indeed tech, and citing the United Nations' definition as such? Castncoot (talk) 21:17, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Castncoot, will you at least agree to my previous assertions that (1) no biotech companies were part of the original (pre dot com bust) Silicon Alley and (2) Biotech R&D within NYC remains tiny? Also to state the obvious, the "silicon" in "Silicon (V)alley" is usually associated with IT, not biotech. Boghog (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- 1) Yes. 2) Not really. Some R&D decision-making is separated from physical lab space R&D, and you really have to give my ref the benefit of the doubt; for you to assume that these companies are only headquartered in Manhattan is absolutely OR. 3) Google "Silicon Valley biotech". The difference between "usually" and "the whole" is often not insignificant. One has to realize that we are no longer stuck in 1999. Castncoot (talk) 21:48, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Assuming that they have significant lab space in Manhattan is also OR. Life is based on carbon, not silicon. That was true in 1999 and is still true today. The number of biotech companies that exist within the geographical boundaries of Silicon Valley far exceeds those of Silicon Alley. Because of the insignificant number of biotech companies in Silicon Alley, it would be undue to mention this in the lead. Boghog (talk) 22:19, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- I guess that regarding your vantage point it comes back to the same point as I stated above - why are you considering Silicon Alley to represent only Manhattan? Because if you consider the metro area as a whole (and by the way, I forgot to mention the large number of companies in Westchester and Long Island per the ref [15]), there are a lot of biotech companies closely encircling Manhattan. Boghog, I request you to kindly look at and compare Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area and Tech companies in the New York metropolitan area and tell me if you still think that the biotech component of tech in the metro area is insignificant. (By the way, I said R&D decision-making, which is likely to occur at a headquarters operation; not lab space R&D. Otherwise, why even bother having an HQ in Manhattan? For the reputation that Manhattan apparently carries in biotech (to play devil's advocate)? One might as well place the HQ in suburbia then, if nothing happens in Manhattan, to play devil's advocate again. The additional point is that if the HQ is in Manhattan, the lab space is going to be (at farthest) in its own suburbs, not in Boston or San Francisco.) Castncoot (talk) 22:46, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- By the way, Boghog and Jytdog, an interesting event has occurred right under all of our noses – did you both see the entry that went in under the radar in the "see also" section of this article: [16]? Now please look at Silicon Hills --> right in the first paragraph it includes Biotechnology as an integral part and parcel of its tech sphere! If that is a legitimate addition (which it is indeed), then so is adding Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area to the see also section and adding the Columbia University ref ([17]) to the lede. Castncoot (talk) 22:53, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Assuming that they have significant lab space in Manhattan is also OR. Life is based on carbon, not silicon. That was true in 1999 and is still true today. The number of biotech companies that exist within the geographical boundaries of Silicon Valley far exceeds those of Silicon Alley. Because of the insignificant number of biotech companies in Silicon Alley, it would be undue to mention this in the lead. Boghog (talk) 22:19, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- 1) Yes. 2) Not really. Some R&D decision-making is separated from physical lab space R&D, and you really have to give my ref the benefit of the doubt; for you to assume that these companies are only headquartered in Manhattan is absolutely OR. 3) Google "Silicon Valley biotech". The difference between "usually" and "the whole" is often not insignificant. One has to realize that we are no longer stuck in 1999. Castncoot (talk) 21:48, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Castncoot, will you at least agree to my previous assertions that (1) no biotech companies were part of the original (pre dot com bust) Silicon Alley and (2) Biotech R&D within NYC remains tiny? Also to state the obvious, the "silicon" in "Silicon (V)alley" is usually associated with IT, not biotech. Boghog (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- Your refs below, Jytdog, don't redefine biotech as not being tech. Boghog himself says above, "Given biotechs are a recent and still relatively minor addition to NYC tech", suggesting that he also ultimately considers biotech to fundamentally be a form of tech. Also, I think it's frankly frivolous that you're making unsourced and irrelevant comparisons above to "SF/Boston/San Diego". This isn't a comparison match with other cities or their own biotech spheres, although frankly as well, with the recent growth in NYC area's biotech sphere, it's probably well in the top three or four, and if anything, my references ([12], [13], and [14]) support the now-large number of biotechs that have indeed sprouted in Silicon Alley. And Jytdog, now that someone else is actively observing this conversation, you finally won't be able to avoid answering my nth iteration of the same question: how do you reconcile your contention that biotech is decidedly not tech with the editorially consensused definition in the first line of the biotechnology article indicating in WP:WikiVoice that biotech is indeed tech, and citing the United Nations' definition as such? Castncoot (talk) 21:17, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
- I also have reliable sources that state that Silicon Alley died with the dot com bust and no longer exists. In addition, your list of New York biotech companies is highly misleading. Many have their corporate headquarters located within Manhattan, but research laboratories and production facilities outside NYC. This is in stark contrast to the Silicon Alley IT companies whose entire operation was located within NYC. To this day, Biotech R&D within NYC remains tiny. Boghog (talk) 14:40, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
about Silicon Hills see WP:OTHERSHITEXISTS. will look at that later. about this article my view is that your stance is entirely WP:OR. The sources almost unanimously discuss Silicon Alley as a cluster of IT/digital companies,and sources that discuss the biotech industry in NYC do not discuss Silicon Alley in any other way but a) in comparison (as something different) or b) as another example of science driven industry (the umbrella term that you have been reaching for this whole time is High tech, btw) The "tech industry" is digital/IT per all the sources. But in any case, you keep trying to pull the discussion back into these handwavy definitional discussions or into parallels you are drawing with Silicon Valley. None of those arguments are relevant in WP. Jytdog (talk) 00:53, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not going to fall for your bait, I've already repeated that this is not a comparison with Silicon Valley. By the way, two can play that game: people don't separately call it "Carbon Valley" when referring to its biotech presence, do they? Also, WP:OSE provides that analogous comparisons can be either valid or invalid – and I believe that the Silicon Hills comparison is absolutely valid, especially when it has entered this Silicon Alley article as a legitimate "see also" entry. And Jytdog, now that someone else is actively observing this conversation, you finally won't be able to avoid answering my n+1th iteration of the same question: how do you reconcile your contention that biotech is decidedly not tech with the editorially consensused definition in the first line of the biotechnology article indicating in WP:WikiVoice that biotech is indeed tech, and citing the United Nations' definition as such? Castncoot (talk) 02:30, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- You are the one who mentioned Silicon Hills. I have addressed your definitional concern several times; you are not listening. I will do it again. There is no doubt anywhere in the known universe, that biotech is applied science --a form of "technology". That is a different set of issues from what the "tech industry" is. The "tech industry" is digital/IT stuff; it does not include biotechnology. I will not answer that again. Silicon Alley is a cluster of companies in the tech industry. Jytdog (talk) 02:37, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- No, this is to my belief (pardon me if I'm mistaken) the first time you're acknowledging biotech to be a form of "technology" - after saying this, this, and this. We're finally making a bit of progress here. OK, now that you admit that "biotech" is a form of "tech", then "biotech companies" must be a form of "tech companies", correct? I mean, this is just common sense English language. Let's take one step at a time, please, and not try to overthink it. Just keep it simple. I mean, I could come up with similar nuances about the game design industry being very different from the software industry being very different from the digital media industry being very different from the biotech industry being very different from the computer hardware industry, and so on and so on and so on.... but they all ultimately encompass tech companies. You're also beginning to confuse Silicon Hills and Silicon Valley, by the way; and from a purely Wikipedia policy standpoint, the policy of WP:WikiVoice stands tall, and is apparent both in the editorially highly consensused Biotechnology article and also I see now in the Silicon Hills article, which has now entered the Silicon Alley article as a legitimate "see also" entry. Castncoot (talk) 03:07, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- The other thing you're doing which I strongly object to is blocking my placement into the Silicon Alley article this excellent ref from Columbia University: [18]. This ref 1) is a WP:RS, 2) demonstrates that Columbia University's Technology Ventures is supporting the biotechnology ecosystem in New York City, indicating significant commonality and inclusion of biotech funding and companies into the sphere of tech funding and companies, 3) states that this ecosystem is growing, and 4) also notes Peter Thiel, the world-renowned tech investor, as a supporter of the enterprise, which also reinforces 2). If I can't even place the reference in the spot where it would further bolster my statement, I believe it cannot be fairly adjudicated by the Wikipedia community in the first place to see how it fits live in context. This is incorrect. Castncoot (talk) 03:41, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- I have said it several times. here on November 1
The fact that biotechnology is applied biology means nothing.
Any applied science is a form of technology. This is not controversial and has nothing to do with this conversation. The TECH INDUSTRY is IT/digital. Jytdog (talk) 04:07, 19 December 2016 (UTC)- No you haven't, you said just the opposite - please look at the diff you just provided. So I am indeed correct after all then that today (December 19, UTC) is indeed the first time you're acknowledging outright that biotechnology is "a form of technology" [19]. Since that November 1 diff, I have indeed come up with three supportive refs, but you are not allowing even presentation of the evidence. Your blog-style refs on the other hand don't (and cannot) redefine biotech or refute that biotech is a form of tech, but now you're insisting that biotech is somehow a form both of tech and of the high tech industry but that biotech companies are not tech companies (???); when in fact, the lines are becoming increasingly blurred, as the evidentiary [20] clearly shows but which you are working decidedly to suppress. Two other refs clearly ([21] and [22]) attest to the vast number of biotech companies which have indeed sprung up in the NYC metro area in just the past few years, faster than people's awareness has had time to catch up to. Now we have the power of WP:WikiVoice indicating that biotech is definitely tech per the Biotechnology article's first sentence, and this assertion being backed by citation of the United Nations of all organizations, and finally the Silicon Hills page, whose opening lede paragraph defines it as a "technology hub" pertaining to which "The high tech industries in the area include Enterprise software, Biotechnology, Gaming industry, Co(r)porate R&D, Semiconductors, Computers, and a variety of startups companies" and which has legitimately been allowed into this Silicon Alley article as a "see also" entry. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what you're even trying to point out now, and I'm sure I wouldn't be in the only one in that situation. The viewpoint I'm putting forth embodies reasonableness. It doesn't come out of left field. Yours, on the other hand, is extreme and takes a higher threshold to defend, particularly when you are trying to suppress the evidence supporting my reasonable viewpoint. And ultimately, this whole exercise comprises a debate of viewpoints. Castncoot (talk) 14:38, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- You've not been reading what I have written. Your argument is WP:OR based on your strangely abstract definitions; you are not dealing with the industries that exploit these technologies. It is not "extreme" to say that green is not purple; it isn't, and the tech industry and the biotech industry are very different animals. Most importantly, what you are arguing for in this article is that is not supported by the vast bulk of sources (see below).
- Let's do mediation already, shall we? Jytdog (talk) 14:44, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- You seem to be the one trying to argue that green is purple here. We also now have another editor expressing his own third-party viewpoint here, and that's a healthy thing to have as well. It takes a strong WP:CONSENSUS to remove longstanding blocks of material that have existed for years. Other editors have been perfectly fine with the material as written over the years. The WP:BURDEN is therefore yours at this point to build that consensus for such a WP:BOLD removal of content. I would actually like to add refs to reinforce my point, and you won't allow it; and I increasingly believe that this constitutes suppression of evidence - evidence that is simply intended to further support a statement that has already been there for years. I would also like to add Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area in the Silicon Alley see also section, which I cannot see presenting any reasonable objection now that Silicon Hills (and by extension, its first paragraph content) has been legitimately allowed into that same section of this Silicon Alley article now - you're working to block that as well, which is downright unreasonable. But I'll tolerate the status quo as a compromise. Castncoot (talk) 15:17, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- The status quo is not OK. We are clearly at an impasse and we need to use DR. Please respond at the mediation request. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 15:35, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- Since you have rejected mediation, and the request for mediation has therefore been denied, I have opened an RfC. Jytdog (talk) 03:55, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
- You seem to be the one trying to argue that green is purple here. We also now have another editor expressing his own third-party viewpoint here, and that's a healthy thing to have as well. It takes a strong WP:CONSENSUS to remove longstanding blocks of material that have existed for years. Other editors have been perfectly fine with the material as written over the years. The WP:BURDEN is therefore yours at this point to build that consensus for such a WP:BOLD removal of content. I would actually like to add refs to reinforce my point, and you won't allow it; and I increasingly believe that this constitutes suppression of evidence - evidence that is simply intended to further support a statement that has already been there for years. I would also like to add Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area in the Silicon Alley see also section, which I cannot see presenting any reasonable objection now that Silicon Hills (and by extension, its first paragraph content) has been legitimately allowed into that same section of this Silicon Alley article now - you're working to block that as well, which is downright unreasonable. But I'll tolerate the status quo as a compromise. Castncoot (talk) 15:17, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- No you haven't, you said just the opposite - please look at the diff you just provided. So I am indeed correct after all then that today (December 19, UTC) is indeed the first time you're acknowledging outright that biotechnology is "a form of technology" [19]. Since that November 1 diff, I have indeed come up with three supportive refs, but you are not allowing even presentation of the evidence. Your blog-style refs on the other hand don't (and cannot) redefine biotech or refute that biotech is a form of tech, but now you're insisting that biotech is somehow a form both of tech and of the high tech industry but that biotech companies are not tech companies (???); when in fact, the lines are becoming increasingly blurred, as the evidentiary [20] clearly shows but which you are working decidedly to suppress. Two other refs clearly ([21] and [22]) attest to the vast number of biotech companies which have indeed sprung up in the NYC metro area in just the past few years, faster than people's awareness has had time to catch up to. Now we have the power of WP:WikiVoice indicating that biotech is definitely tech per the Biotechnology article's first sentence, and this assertion being backed by citation of the United Nations of all organizations, and finally the Silicon Hills page, whose opening lede paragraph defines it as a "technology hub" pertaining to which "The high tech industries in the area include Enterprise software, Biotechnology, Gaming industry, Co(r)porate R&D, Semiconductors, Computers, and a variety of startups companies" and which has legitimately been allowed into this Silicon Alley article as a "see also" entry. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what you're even trying to point out now, and I'm sure I wouldn't be in the only one in that situation. The viewpoint I'm putting forth embodies reasonableness. It doesn't come out of left field. Yours, on the other hand, is extreme and takes a higher threshold to defend, particularly when you are trying to suppress the evidence supporting my reasonable viewpoint. And ultimately, this whole exercise comprises a debate of viewpoints. Castncoot (talk) 14:38, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- I have said it several times. here on November 1
- You are the one who mentioned Silicon Hills. I have addressed your definitional concern several times; you are not listening. I will do it again. There is no doubt anywhere in the known universe, that biotech is applied science --a form of "technology". That is a different set of issues from what the "tech industry" is. The "tech industry" is digital/IT stuff; it does not include biotechnology. I will not answer that again. Silicon Alley is a cluster of companies in the tech industry. Jytdog (talk) 02:37, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not going to fall for your bait, I've already repeated that this is not a comparison with Silicon Valley. By the way, two can play that game: people don't separately call it "Carbon Valley" when referring to its biotech presence, do they? Also, WP:OSE provides that analogous comparisons can be either valid or invalid – and I believe that the Silicon Hills comparison is absolutely valid, especially when it has entered this Silicon Alley article as a legitimate "see also" entry. And Jytdog, now that someone else is actively observing this conversation, you finally won't be able to avoid answering my n+1th iteration of the same question: how do you reconcile your contention that biotech is decidedly not tech with the editorially consensused definition in the first line of the biotechnology article indicating in WP:WikiVoice that biotech is indeed tech, and citing the United Nations' definition as such? Castncoot (talk) 02:30, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
Refs galore that tech and biotech industries are distinct in general and wrt Silicon Alley
Am carting things around like a turtle. Here are all the refs I have brought to this discussion, in various places, now consolidated.
- general
- A Tale of Two Startup Worlds: Biotech And Tech VC Ecosystems
- Why Biotech Startups are Not the Same as Tech Startups
- Peter Thiel on what it is like for a tech investor to move into the biotech space
- a video! for those who don't like to read, on the difference between tech and biotech called (ahem) "Where to Invest? Tech vs. Biotech Startups with Rowan Chapman (Mohr Davidow Ventures)"
- Wasserman, Noam (2012). The Founder's Dilemmas Anticipating and Avoiding the Pitfalls That Can Sink a Startup. Princeton: Princeton University Press. ISBN 9781400841936. by Noam T. Wasserman pp 30-31 says:"The dataset and case studies both focus on the two most central industries for high-potential startups, technology and life sciences. Together, these industries dominate every measure of young startup employment and funding. Of the initial public offerings (IPOs) during the decade (2000–2009), 48% came from those two industries, and no other industry accounted for more than 12%. Furthermore, of the angel capital invested during the decade, 74% went to those two industries, as did 71% of venture capital." (emphasis added). This is footnoted to three footnotes. One says "According to Thomson’s Venture Expert Database, accessed September 16, 2010, technology investments (including Internet, computer software and services, communications and media, semiconductors and other electronics, and computer hardware) accounted for 56% of VC investments from 2000 to 2009 and life sciences investments (medical/health and biotechnology) accounted for 15%." Another says: "According to my analyses of annual reports from the Center for Venture Research at the University of New Hampshire, which compiles perhaps the most reliable data on angel investments, technology investments (including software, hardware, telecommunications, and IT services) accounted for 45% of angel investment across the decade and life sciences investments (biotechnology, life sciences, and health) accounted for an additional 29% (Sohl, 2001–2009)." The third says "According to Thomson’s Venture Expert Database, accessed September 16, 2010, technology investments (including Internet, computer software and services, communications and media, semiconductors and other electronics, and computer hardware) accounted for 56% of VC investments from 2000 to 2009 and life sciences investments (medical/health and biotechnology) accounted for 15%." (NB: the breakdown here is common as dirt - the tech industry is distinct from the biotech industry)
- descriptions of Silicon Alley that discuss its nature as focused on tech (digital, computing, IT, etc)
- list of "healthcare" companies at Alleywatch - all IT based. None of them are doing lab work; in other words, none are biotech. They are health IT or "healthtech"
- slate on the NYC tech boom - digitial, which is focused on the NYC Tech Meetup, which is all about digital
- Xconomy article on the NYC tech scene - all digital.
- service provider for Silicon Alley - tech and digital
- NYT article on death of Silicon Alley Magazine, which was "known for its unabashed boosterism of New York's new media entrepreneurs" ("new media" = "digital" ie tech)
- NYC government approach to the two sectors
- here is an in-depth review of the different kinds of things NYC has done to foster these two very different industries.
- NYC EDC report on the tech sector. Contrast with this, the life sciences sector report, which is completely different.
- some very specific differences between the two worlds
- Patent fight: Tech vs. pharma, round one (the role of IP is extremely different)
- this about fundamental differences in common terms, like "API" and how people stumble over them going between the two worlds.
- need for lab space for biotech as well as this, which you can contrast with this about tech startup space in NYC
-- Jytdog (talk) 20:16, 18 December 2016 (UTC) (redacted, Jytdog (talk) 06:55, 20 December 2016 (UTC))
RfC: Should this article discuss the biotech industry?
This article currently contains discussion of the biotech industry. That content was added in this diff by User:Castncoot.
I attempted to remove that in this diffl on Nov 1; this was reverted by Castncoot here.
This article has few watchers, so it has mostly been Castncoot and I bumping heads. After several failed efforts to get community input to resolve this dispute (above; ORN; at Talk:Biotechnology here, and an attempt at formal mediation here, the only way I can see to resolve this is an RfC.
The crux of the dispute as I understand it is:
- Castncoot understands that because biotechnology is a form of technology, any discussion of "technology" anywhere in Wikipedia also should include "biotechnology", and likewise any discussion of the "tech industry" by default should include the "biotech industry". That includes this article. For Castncoot this is a "blue sky" obvious thing.
- In my understanding, the reliable sources about Silicon Alley discuss it as a cluster of companies in the "tech industry" and use that term to refer to "companies that work in the IT/digital/software space"; the refs about Silicon Alley don't discuss biotech companies, and refs about the biotech industry in NYC don't associate it with Silicon Alley. (For refs, see the section above, here, which are not cited in the article now.)
The question: Should this article include discussion of the biotech industry? Jytdog (talk) 03:52, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
!votes
- no, per my argument above and below. Jytdog (talk) 03:53, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
- yes; per the material copy-pasted here below from above, it would be unreasonable (and downright irresponsible) to simply pretend that there is no notable biotechnology presence in Silicon Alley (please see Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area as well as the editorially consensused definition of biotechnology in Biotechnology, and please also look at the first paragraph of Silicon Hills as of this writing) Castncoot (talk) 04:32, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
- No, at least not in the lead. If it is mentioned at all, it must be made clear that biotech in NYC is tiny and not usually associated with Silicon Alley. Boghog (talk) 04:52, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
Discussion
- In addition to what the refs say, even definitionally, the tech industry is very distinct from the biotech industry in almost every way: role of regulation (biotech industry very regulated, IT/digital industry not), who pays for products (insurance companies for biotech industry, consumers or advertisers for IT/digital industry); the role of IP (important in the biotech industry, a hindrance in the digital/IT industry); and all those things have a big effect on the time and money it takes to get to market which is very different between the two industries, and on the kind of investors who get involved. The skill sets of the people involved are also different). Further, Castncoot is conflating "technology" (applied science) with "tech industry" which is a specific industry - companies that are in the IT/digital/software space, and Castncoot cannot see that. The umbrella term is High tech, not "tech industry." But the refs are what really matter here, and they are definitive. Jytdog (talk) 03:53, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
- moved comment below made above, in response to Boghog's !vote, from !votes section here to Discussion. That is what this section is for. Jytdog (talk) 06:38, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
- I'm sure you note that most of the mention is toward the bottom of the article anyway. Do you have a source that says that biotech in NYC is "tiny"? And even if you did, they would be irrefutably disproven by the Biotech and pharmaceutical companies in the New York metropolitan area article and its sources, which clearly show that statement to be categorically false, i.e., they clearly demonstrate that there is indeed a significant biotech presence. Castncoot (talk) 05:09, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
- Corporate headquarters don't count. Compared to IT, biotech R&D in NYC is tiny. Boghog (talk) 06:10, 20 December 2016 (UTC)