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Death of Subhash Chandra Bose
As his death is not confirmed by any solid source,I think we should not assume 18th August 1945 as his death day. Cause it's a very controversial issue. Souvikdind (talk) 14:03, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- No, several inquiries have concluded that he did die on 18 August 1945. Those are reliably sourced as well as being widely accepted. Just because there are theories and beliefs among some people that he did not die in 1945 is not reason to omit the information altogether. Nthep (talk) 14:35, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, Wikipedia is beholden only to the reliable sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:56, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Fowler&fowler Nthep, but nothing is proven till now. there are many theories but nothing has been proved, so how can we mention the death date? the references used here are mostly from the 2000s. latest investigations and studies show different things. we cant stick to any old and unproven theory just because its widely accepted. there are multiple reliable sources for this.
- indiatoday 1
- indiatoday 2
- thewire
- timesofindia
- scroll
- zeenews and many more... ❯❯❯ S A H A 06:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Latest things do not show any difference. The 2015 face mapping reports are just that, another opinion. To quote the Times of India article "Serious consideration must be given to the contention that the Tashkent Man (TM) and Subhas Chandra Bose (SCB) share very similar facial features and could potentially be one and the same person" [1] (my emphasis). Not solid proof but another theory that may deserve mention in Death of Subhas Chandra Bose if it's not already there, but the basic premise still remains, numerous inquiries have overt the years come to the official conclusion that 18 August 1945 is the date of death. If the GOI held another inquiry and concluded that Bose died somewhere else or on a different date Wikipedia would take notice of that but grasping at straws isn't good enough reason to change the content. Nthep (talk) 13:23, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Fowler&fowler Nthep, but nothing is proven till now. there are many theories but nothing has been proved, so how can we mention the death date? the references used here are mostly from the 2000s. latest investigations and studies show different things. we cant stick to any old and unproven theory just because its widely accepted. there are multiple reliable sources for this.
- Sorry, Wikipedia is beholden only to the reliable sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:56, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
Death of the great Netaji should not be in the article..It is till not confirmed and most of the Indians do believe that subhasji did not die at that plane crash. Either Indians or Tokyo confirmed the plane crash..so to indicate death date of Netaji is to provide wrong information and to play with the emotions of Indians IamKrg (talk) 16:41, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
wikipedia better take out the death date and put it as controversial Ekpalka (talk) 21:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
You should change the date of death. Because NETAJI'S death of date is unknown.So change it Crøcrøz (talk) 19:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
It's Controversial No Body Proofs It Kammu123 (talk) 07:26, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
Sri Subhash Ch. Bose wan not died on 18th August 1945, rather he lived a life of a monk and demised on 16th September 1985. Yes it can not be proven in terms of evidence required, but there are no clinching evidences exist which even substaintiate 1945's story. Until the issue gets resolved, better not to declare the date of death, rather "Unknown" should be there.... Amrish5Roy (talk) 19:34, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Wrong Caption
In the section 1941–1943: Nazi Germany, the Image of Bose and Hitler claims Bose is standing by Himmler, even though Wikimedia says it is the interpreter Paul Schmidt.
- there are two photos, one of Bose with Himmler, one of Bose with Hitler. Nthep (talk) 09:34, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 30 May 2021
The cause of death of Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose was not confirmed to be air crash. Justice Mukherjee Commission categorically stated that the cause of death was not air crash because no such crash was occurred/ recorded in Taihoku during that time. Hence this window of inconclusiveness should be there in "Death" portion. 117.227.53.3 (talk) 15:41, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
Not done See the discussion above. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:26, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
Bose was a member of Fitzwilliam House at Cambridge
The present Fitzwilliam College at Cambridge commenced as "Fitzwilliam House" in 1869 "as a non-collegiate institution, providing Cambridge education to undergraduates who were unable to afford membership of a college. Teaching was initially organized from a handsome house opposite the Fitzwilliam Museum." SC Bose was affiliated with it in his Cambridge experience. How do I know? I learnt it when I was myself a member of Fitzwilliam in 1976 before I moved to Corpus Christi College in 1978. Subroto Roy
Unorthodox edits by a user new to this page
An editor @Peter Ormond: first added a "Peacock" tag to the top of this page and subsequently—after my revert and request per WP:BRD to discuss his edits on the talk page—has gone on to remove large portions of text from the article. While I do not disagree with one of his edits, I am nonetheless dismayed by the manner in which he has conducted the edit, without any communication on the talk page. In another edit, he has changed
... was an [[Indian independence movement|Indian nationalist]] whose defiant patriotism made him a hero in India,{{sfn|Metcalf|Metcalf|2012|p=210}}{{efn|"His romantic saga, coupled with his defiant nationalism, has made Bose a near-mythic figure, not only in his native Bengal, but across India."{{sfn|Metcalf|Metcalf|2012|p=210}}}}{{efn|"Bose's heroic endeavor still fires the imagination of many of his countrymen. But like a meteor which enters the earth's atmosphere, he burned brightly on the horizon for a brief moment only."{{sfn|Kulke|Rothermund|2004|p=311}}}}{{efn|"Subhas Bose might have been a renegade leader who had challenged the authority of the Congress leadership and their principles. But in death he was a martyred patriot whose memory could be an ideal tool for political mobilization."{{sfn|Bandyopādhyāẏa|2004|p=427}}}} but whose attempts during [[World War II]] to rid India of [[British Raj|British rule]] with the help of [[Nazi Germany]] and [[Imperial Japan]]
to
was an [[Indian independence movement|Indian nationalist]] but whose attempts during [[World War II]] to rid India of [[British Raj|British rule]] with the help of [[Nazi Germany]] and [[Imperial Japan]]
He has not only disregarded the sources but has also rendered the sentence ungrammatical. I have again undone his edits. As this is a controversial India-Pakistan-related article (broadly construed) I have also left an ARBCOM Discretionary Sanctions notice on his user talk page. So, again Peter Ormond, please desist from making these airy edits. Prefer instead to engage us here and seek consensus for them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:46, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Fowler&fowler: I removed the unsourced content in this edit. If you want to keep it in the article, then cite reliable sources, just like the rest of the article. I don't think that it deserves to be discussed on talk pages, it is an obvious Wikipedia policy.
- And the phrase "whose defiant patriotism made him a hero in India" definitely comes under WP:PEACOCK. Most works covering particularly from those years, suffer from propagandistic overtones. It should be removed and the lead sentence should be re-phrased. Regards, Peter Ormond 💬 14:32, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- As a third party who keeps half an eye on this article, may I attempt some explanations and defusing?
- The text quoted above by Fowler&Fowler has citations within it: {{sfn|Metcalf|Metcalf|2012|p=210}}, {{sfn|Metcalf|Metcalf|2012|p=210}}, {{sfn|Kulke|Rothermund|2004|p=311}} and {{sfn|Bandyopādhyāẏa|2004|p=427}} so calling it "uncited" is not accurate.
- The normal procedure with uncited text is to tag it with
{{cn}}
, not to delete without warning. - There is a procedure known as WP:BRD which states:
- An editor makes a Bold edit
- Another editor Reverts the edit
- So all editors go to the Discussion page to resolve the issue.
- – so the edit most assuredly does "deserve[s] to be discussed on talk pages".
- Finally, "whose defiant patriotism made him a hero in India". Well Bose was defiant and was certainly a nationalist so there's nothing wrong with the first part. As for being a hero in India, I am not able to judge, but there have certainly been numerous attempts over the years to skew this article towards hagiography. Perhaps we should rely on the cited Metcalf & Metcalf? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:01, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- I didn't say that the phrase "whose defiant patriotism made him a hero in India" is unsourced. It is WP:PEACOCK. The term "Indian nationalist" is sufficient to explain his "patriotism" and "heroism". "Nationalism" is itself synonymous with "patriotism". Peter Ormond 💬 15:47, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- "Nationalism" and "Patriotism" are not synonymous; furthermore being a nationalist does not guarantee heroic status in your own or any other land. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:17, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- I know there is a little difference. Thesaurus lists nationalism as a synonym of patriotism, but still I agree with you. However, the phrase "whose defiant patriotism made him a hero in India" is still WP:PEACOCK. Peter Ormond 💬 18:16, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- As you will notice in the Death section, Gandhi's own words are telling.
A man disappears from India in cloak-and-dagger fashion and courts the Nazis and the Italian Fascists hoping for a grand invasion of India. He then leaves his wife and baby daughter to an uncertain future in wartime Europe and disappears again in a U-boat eventually arriving in Southeast Asia in the hopes of attacking British India with an army, the INA, comprising Indian POWs of the British Indian Army (which the Japanese handed over to him). Late in 1944, the Japanese army driven in part by Bose's pressure and supported by the ineffectual INA attack northeast India but are eventually roundly beaten back. While the INA surrenders with the Imperial Japanese Army to the British, Bose attempts to escape on an overloaded bomber to Manchuria in the hopes of winning support from the Soviet Union for the liberation of India and is killed when the plane crashes.In India the Indian National Congress's official line was succinctly expressed in a letter Mohandas Karamchand (Mahatma) Gandhi wrote to Rajkumari Amrit Kaur.[40] Said Gandhi, "Subhas Bose has died well. He was undoubtedly a patriot, though misguided."[40] Many congressmen had not forgiven Bose for quarrelling with Gandhi and for collaborating with what they considered was Japanese fascism. The Indian soldiers in the British Indian army, some two and a half million of whom had fought during the Second World War, were conflicted about the INA. Some saw the INA as traitors and wanted them punished; others felt more sympathetic.
- As you will notice in the Death section, Gandhi's own words are telling.
- I know there is a little difference. Thesaurus lists nationalism as a synonym of patriotism, but still I agree with you. However, the phrase "whose defiant patriotism made him a hero in India" is still WP:PEACOCK. Peter Ormond 💬 18:16, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- "Nationalism" and "Patriotism" are not synonymous; furthermore being a nationalist does not guarantee heroic status in your own or any other land. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:17, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- I didn't say that the phrase "whose defiant patriotism made him a hero in India" is unsourced. It is WP:PEACOCK. The term "Indian nationalist" is sufficient to explain his "patriotism" and "heroism". "Nationalism" is itself synonymous with "patriotism". Peter Ormond 💬 15:47, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- As a third party who keeps half an eye on this article, may I attempt some explanations and defusing?
- When someone defies his compatriots (in India), expected commitments to his new family in Europe, the reality of his ragtag army, the reality of its eventual loss, the reality of military convention (in keeping with which even the Japanese surrendered), all in the dream of liberating his motherland (India) from British rule, using any and all available means, what is it if not patriotism? Reckless patriotism perhaps, but patriotism nonetheless. Patriotism is not nationalism; it is less well-defined. (The OED says: "Whereas patriotism usually refers to a general sentiment, nationalism now usually refers to a specific ideology, esp. one expressed through political activism.") Bose was a nationalist for the period 1926 to 1940, but what happened thereafter was such a mishmash of opportunistic, up for grabs, ideology as to constitute nothing consistent. Patriotism is what it was. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:35, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2021
Date of death anniversary-16th September 1985 2402:8100:23C3:7307:8216:AC66:D92E:A68B (talk) 16:06, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Not done Date of death is given by scholarly sources as 18 August 1945. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Is it a good idea to nominate this article for Good article status?
This article, as I look at it further, looks like a promising candidate for a good article, maybe even a featured article. But I don't think just plainly putting a nomination in the Good article list will help it become a good article. So, what do I need to do to help improve this? TootsieRollsAddict (talk) 14:16, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- This is the biography of a controversial Indian nationalist. There are a lot of sources, and finding the happy medium (of consensus) there is very tricky. I've been puttering. I've got through the lead (which I wrote long ago); the first two sections, which are recent; and the Death of SCB (which also I wrote long ago). It will take time (say at least a couple of months more) for me to get all the information there. But if you want, you could propose Death of Subhas Chandra Bose for GA. But a proper lead and conclusion will need to be written for that. This article though will take time. Otherwise, GA or even FA is not such a great idea for such articles. The people at FAC are hardly going to know more about the topic than the people do at WT:INDIA. In my opinion, such articles can't be rushed through. Of course, you are your own person. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:29, 23 September 2021 (UTC)