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Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.
Previous discussions:
- Archive 1 (2003-10-06 to 2005-09-18)
- Awesome article · post-war T-34 engagements · Commander as loader · Christie Suspension ? · Contradictory? · Combat Effectiveness · Eh? · Importance? · T-34/85's reduced speed · Units (00 mm, 00mm, 00-mm)
- Archive 2 (2005-10-08 and 2006-01-27)
- Soviet vs. German war industry · Nomenclature · Firepower · Model 1942 or 1943 · "MDSh smoke canisters on the hull rear" · comments · Best tank Quotes · Some minor corrections · Peer review · Quotations · Production Numbers · Footnotes · Combat service · Importance · Peer review to-do list · Best tank · First sentence is wordy · New article: "T-34 variants" · Radios
- Archive 3 (2006-01-28 to 2006-07-31)
- T-34s as "liberation from nazism" monuments all around E-C Europe and their defacing in the 80-90s · Used at Lang Vei? · Identify version please · Military Discovery Channel's Ranking · Bedsprings · Importance section · Drive for Featured Article quality · NPOV · Successor · T-34 is a Featured Article · Hitler's intelligence
- Archive 4 (next to start)
Citation needed for driver's visibility
I'm still not able to find a reference to support the following:
- Visibility from the driver's seat was also poor, with some drivers reporting that their optics were so bad they kept their hatch open slightly even in combat. Tactically, this affected the driver's ability to use terrain to their advantage, since they could not see folds in the ground as well, or have as wide a range of vision as in some other tanks.
Can someone find anything in a book evaluating or comparing the T-34 driver's visibility at all? If nothing comes up, I'll remove the paragraph. —Michael Z. 2006-08-14 17:30 Z
World's Best Tank
RE: "It was the world's best tank when the Soviet Union entered the Second World War", is this really a NPOV?
- Please read over #NPOV, above. WP:NPOV states that NPOV means articles "must represent all significant views fairly and without bias". Barring the citation of a single verifiable, reliable expert's view contradicting the statement, it does represent a neutral point of view. —Michael Z. 2006-09-19 02:01 Z
This is debateable. This seems to state that it was the single best tank in the world at the time, which is untrue, as the Germans had several tanks in development that would soon reach field status, such as the Tiger. The Tiger was superior to the T-34. By the end of the war, however, it was no longer the world's best.--TelevisedRevolution 03:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, the Tiger tank didn't exist at the beginning of World War II (and may never have seen the light if not for the existence of the T-34). So the point is not debatable by the merit of that argument.
- If you can find a source that calls the Tiger a better tank than the T-34, perhaps we could cite it in this article, although it did have several major shortcomings compared to the T-34. The T-34's technical superiority was surpassed part way through the war, but it did set the trend for everything that followed. And one might argue that an improved T-34-84 which could be produced at six times the rate of a Panther was still better overall, at least from the point of view of winning a war. Zaloga et al (1997:6) writes "although the T-34 was not equal on a one-to-one basis with the best German tanks, its durability, economy and suitability to the Soviet style of war made it a far more effective weapon than any of its German rivals. Its only real rival to the title of 'the best tank of World War 2' would be the American Sherman, for many of the same reasons." —Michael Z. 2006-10-17 06:38 Z
It was in fact the best tank in the war because it was even able to knock down Tigers - Germans used tank formations in form of a triangle and at the top of it was the Tiger.But two T 34 were pushed right towards the Tiger - they were fast and could knock it in the rear or the back where the armour was very thin.Even if one of the tanks was destroyed by the Tiger the other one managed to perform the mission as the turret and reloading were slow.
- Here is an extract from one of the references provided by this wiki article: [1] (Retrieved 23 October, 2006)
- It is evident from the extract that the claim for the T-34 to have been the best when the Germans invaded Russia (if that's what you mean by "outbreak of war" is somewhat doubtful. But perhaps I am wrong.
- "At the end of August, [1942] a conference was held at Factory #112. It was attended by the People's Commissar for Tank Industry V.A.Malyshev, Commander of Tank and Mechanized Troops of the Red Army Ya.N.Fedorenko, and ranking members from the People's Commissariat for Armaments. In his introduction, V.A.Malyshev noted that the victory at the Battle of Kursk cost the Red Army a high price:
- "Enemy tanks opened fire on ours at distances of up to 1,500 metres, while our 76 mm tank guns could destroy "Tigers" and "Panthers" at distances of only 500-600 metres. Imagine the enemy has a kilometer and a half in his hands, while we have only half a kilometer. A more powerful gun needs to be put into the T-34 quickly."
- "In actual fact, the situation was significantly worse than Malyshev painted it, though attempts to correct the situation had been undertaken at the beginning of 1943"
- That would be August 1943, after the Battle of Kursk.
- In the invasion of June 1941, there were no Tigers or Panthers, only Panzer II and III tanks armed with 37mm and 50mm antitank guns whose rounds literally bounced off of the T-34's front armour, and Panzer IV with short 75mm guns for antipersonnel fire. The only really effective German antitank weapon was the towed 88mm antiaircraft gun. The T-34's 76.2mm was effective against all of these.
- I've changed the intro sentence to read "It was the world's best tank when the Soviet Union entered the Second World War, and although its armour and armament were surpassed by later WWII tanks, it is credited as the war's most effective, efficient and influential design." This gives a bit better idea of the context (Tiger entered service in late 1942, Panther in mid-'43). —Michael Z. 2006-10-23 03:46 Z
- Thanks, that answwers the question adequately. On a different note, from a military history POV, how is it explained that the Germans were able to make such rapid and unhindered progress in 1941, if the Soviet armour was so superior to anything the Germans could throw at it? Gk1956 15:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think that is mostly answered here and in the Eastern Front article. The Soviets also had something like 20,000-to-3,350 advantage in armoured vehicles. Although only 1,475 were new T-34s and KV-1s, and they were thinly distributed, most of the remainder were T-26 and BT tanks which were a good match for German equipmen. The Soviets were hindered by all of the following, usually to a very severe degree:
- Poor Soviet tank training, especially on new models, and almost complete lack of gunnery and combined-arms training
- Absence of infantry carriers making tank-infantry co-operation difficult, apart from the desperate tank desant tactic
- Two-man turrets, requiring the commander to locate targets, aim, and fire
- Poor mechanical state of older tanks and teething problems with new tanks, absence of tank transporters
- Poor Soviet resupply, especially the lack of replacement parts and recovery vehicles (factory managers had been responsible with their lives to keep up productivity figures: who would bother to make extra parts?)
- Serious lack of radios, generally only installed in company commanders' and sometimes platoon commanders' tanks
- General incompetence of the middle officer ranks, which had lost something like 40,000 during the Great Purge—the losses were slanted towards competent officers who weren't afraid to speak up, and favoured political brown-nosers who didn't understand command or tactics
- Poor Soviet strategy, including deploying on a very narrow front with no reserve
- Poor morale and mass desertion
- Recent organization of the mechanized corps, which had started forming in 1940–41
- Because of the lack of trained officers, the mechanized corps were huge organizations, difficult to coordinate, and to equip and supply up to their nominal strength, despite the huge equipment inventory
- Because of several of these factors, Soviet tank units fought in choreographed set-piece fashion, as they had trained. They generally didn't use the ground to their advantage at all, and had great difficulty responding to battlefield situations, or even locating the enemy.
- In the few places where Soviet units equipped with the new tanks stood up and fought, they did quite well. German tankers were shocked at the performance of the untermensch tanks which unit-level intelligence hadn't known about, and infantry became prone to panic when confronted with the seemingly invulnerable heavy KV tanks. But the strategic problems made it completely impossible for the Soviets to exploit these successes.
Standing errors
was intended to replace both the BT tank and the T-26 infantry tank in service - wrong. There was another tank to replace T-26 in service, called T-50, in prototype - T-126. Also see the discussions in Head Military Council (Glavnyj Voennyj Sovet) about the types of tanks needed for armored force ("Zimnyaya vojna". Rabota nad oshibkami... ISBN 5-9438-1134-6, pp.85-89, 293-296). The infantry support type tank was thought still be necessary. [√ this summary is OK, details are in the article, and I added a note about the T-50 infantry tank. —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 20:18 Z]
engineer Alexander Morozov's new model V-2 engine - wrong. Morozov had nothing to do with V-2 engine. See Neizvestnyj T-34, p.23. There were another people who gave birth to this engine - Chelpan, Trashutin, Chupahin... [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-27 02:51 Z]
It also had the convertible drive of the BT tank - wrong. It had convertible drive, but of quite different type. For example, BT had steering wheels, A-20 - not. BT had 8x2 wheel formula, A-20 had 8x6. (see M.Pavlov, I.Pavlov, I.Zheltov Tanki BT, part 3, Armada No 17, p.13). [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 04:38 Z]
and allowed tanks to travel as fast as 100 km/h on roads - wrong. The maximum speed (on wheels) of BT tanks was 86 km/h on road. That was BT-7M. (ibid., p.48) [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 04:38 Z]
The second prototype, designated A-30 but shortly renamed T-32 - wrong. The prototype was designated A-32 from the very begining (Neizvestnyj T-34, p. 13), and never existed as T-32. as soon as it went to production, it got the designation T-34 (factory designation - A-34) (ibid.., p.17). [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-27 20:34 Z]
The first production tanks were completed in September 1940, completely replacing the production of the T-26, BT, and the multi-turreted T-28 medium tank - wrong. First, T-34 went in production on KhPZ, while T-26 and T-28 were produced on another plants. Second, T-26 was in production till 1941. And third, that was KV who replaced T-28 on Kirov plant, not T-34 (multiple sources). [√ updated article: T-34 replaced other tanks at KhPZ. —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 20:04 Z]
In late 1943 a second major version began production, the T-34-85 - wrong. Production of T-34/85 started in january 1944 (Neizvestnyj T-34, p.60) [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-27 21:05 Z]
To be continued. Fat yankey 04:11, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
- Some quick responses; I'll have to check my sources to address the remainder.
- Regarding T-34 replacing infantry tanks and fast tanks: it should be clarified who intended what. Conservative elements in the army, notably Marshall Kulik, still felt that tanks were a fad, and were keen on the old infantry/cavalry distinction. The tank's designer, Koshkin, intended the T-34 as a 'universal tank' to replace both, and there was some support for him, as he was allowed to develop it alongside, and then instead of the A-20 fast tank. The T-50 did enter production at factories which weren't capable of building the larger medium tanks, but my impression is that it wasn't strictly used according to the old infantry tank doctrine, and production of light tanks in general were phased out, largely to be replaced in service by the T-34 and SU-76. Anyway, the total production of 63 of these vehicles doesn't represent a replacement for 12,000 T-26 infantry tanks, nor does it indicate any real commitment to the infantry tank concept.
- Regarding convertible drive, this wasn't intended to mean that the A-20 had the identical mechanism, but that it had a convertible drive, like the BT tanks did. Needs clarification.
- Zaloga lists the road speed of the BT-2 as 100 km/hr; subsequent models weren't as fast. Do you have contradicting sources?
- Regarding T-34-85 introduction, it's quite possible that the production line started at the end of 1943, and the first tank was completed in January 1944—I have to check the sources.
- According to Zaloga (1996), T-34-85 production was approved on 1943-12-15 and ordered to begin by February 1944. The "Model 1943" tanks with D-5S gun were produced in February-March, and the ZiS-S-53 started to be mounted in March. They also started to be issued to troops and saw their first action in March 1944. —Michael Z. 2006-09-27 21:05 Z
- I'll create separate discussion section to cover "intention" subject. It's complicated, and needs to be explained thoroughly. Other topics:
- The documented maximum road speed (on wheels) for BT-2 was 72 km/h. That's quite an example of Zaloga's "competence". I don't know for sure, but it looks like Zaloga had found his number somewhere in Christie files, and then "deduced" BT-2 speed, given that BT-2 was a copy of one of the Christie tanks. But he never told his audience, that this is his hypothesis, not a fact.
- You most likely know, that USSR had so called "planned economy". T-34-85 were included in production plan of January 1944, not before.
- I believe the T-50 was intended to replace the T-26, but the problems with its unique powerplant restricted production to 60 or so examples. Source is battlefield.ru. DMorpheus 15:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
- It also turned out to be nearly as expensive as the T-34, but with inferior armament, armour, and off-road mobility. So the T-34 (along with the SU-76, which was cheaply manufactured in light industry) ended up replacing the infantry tank.
- Regarding the intent of the T-34: I think it's clear that Koshkin was assigned to build a new fast (cavalry) tank. He put forward a superior design, which he intended to replace both BTs and infantry tanks. He managed to convince enough important people that this may be right, and it turned out to be, so that from 1940–42 the combined production of BTs and infantry tanks went from 2,255 to 48 to 15, while T-34 medium tanks ramped up from 115 to 2,800 to 12,553.
- Can you cite a source for the BT-2's speed?
- Regarding the planned economy, that's pretty vague. The factories would have to first design the production process, then retool their lines for the new tank's production, then start building new-model tanks before a tank could roll off the line. Do you think they managed to do all of this and actually build a production tank in under a month? Or wouldn't a responsible factory manager, who valued his own skin, start this process in advance, if circumstances allowed, so as to bring the first tanks off the line as soon as possible after they were authorized? Anyway, we're splitting hairs here—I'll just reword the text of the article. —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 04:12 Z
- The first production tanks were completed in September 1940, completely replacing the production of the T-26, BT, and the multi-turreted T-28 medium tank—my memory is vague, but I think that may have meant that it replaced production of those tanks or components at the KhPZ. Didn't production at the STZ start later? —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 05:19 Z
Leningrad Kirov Factory No.185 made the original L-11 gun - there is a lot of confusion here. Actually, there were TWO Kirov factory in Leningrad. One was THE Kirov Factory, former Putilov works. This one had no number. The other one was former Experimental Design Department of design bureau of No 174 Factory, which became independent Experimental Mechanical Factory No 185 in 1933. It also had been named after Kirov. No 185 factory made a lot of russian experimental tanks, e.g. T-29 or T-100. In russian they spell differently - the former "Kirovskij zavod", the latter "zavod imeni Kirova". The Kirov factory WITHOUT the number made L-11 gun. [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 04:50 Z]
and later at Krasnoye Sormovo Factory No. 112 in Gorki - inconsistency. Before the war, there were only two designated plants for T-34 production - KhPZ and STZ. After the war started, others jojned. Sormovo was among those, which joined later, while in the text it mentioned side by side with STZ and KhPZ. [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 06:40 Z]
Due to a shortage of new V-2 engines, many tanks in the initial 1940 production run were equipped with the BT tank's inferior MT-17 aircraft engine - wrong. This happened in 1941, when supply of V-2 dropped because of evacuation of No75 plant (Neizvestnyj T-34, pp.40-42) [√ updated article —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 06:40 Z]
The L-11 gun did not live up to expectations, so the Grabin design bureau at Gorki Factory No. 92 designed a superior F-34 76.2mm gun. No bureaucrat would approve production, so Gorki and KhPZ started producing the gun anyway; official permission only came from Stalin's State Defence Committee after troops in the field sent back praise for the gun's performance - lol! Grabin tells a lot of fairy tales in his memoires, but this particular fairy tale was told about ANOTHER gun - 76.2 mm divisional field gun ZIS-3 (see Grabin, Oruzhie pobedy, pp.500-542). F-34 was properly accepted by "bureaucrats", and starting April 1941 all T-34 went out of the factory with F-34 gun (Neizvestnyj T-34, pp.29-30).
In 1942, a new turret design derived from the abandoned T-34M project started to be built - wrong. The new turret, though somewhat similar in shape to T-34M turret, had quite different design. T-34M had three-man turret, with commander's cupola and 1600 mm turret ring (like T-35-85 later), while 1942-turret, "gajka" ("a nut", nicknamed because looked like hexagonal nut), was two man turret with 1450 mm turret ring and initially witout cupola.Fat yankey 17:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Wasn't the Putilov/Kirovskiy works also called Factory no. 100?Only after evacuation.
- From my reading, I think KhPZ started production in September 1940, STZ in early 1941, and Krasnoye Sormovo just after the war started, in July 1941. These comprise the initial production of tanks, before the evacuation was ordered, so they are mentioned here. Two paragraphs later, all the changes due to the evacuation and loss of STZ are recounted. I see from reading battlefield.ru, that it was Krasnoye Sormovo's initial production that used the MT-17 petrol engine.
- Was the form of the hexagonal turret based on the T-34M's design, or developed independently. They both came from the same design bureau, so there must have been some relationship, right—improved armour layout, space efficiency, or production design? Needs clarification.
- Yikes—that represents a lot of revisions. Since many of them contradict the more easily-verifiable Zaloga and other English-language works currently available, please be very careful to verify and cite very specifically facts from the Russian-language sources. Do you consider battlefield.ru to be reliable about details?
- I've updated the article to address a couple of the remarks so far (checked-off, above). Please review my edits. —Michael Z. 2006-09-26 06:40 Z
- According to Zaloga (1994:8), the adaptation of the F-32 to the T-34 tank started in spring 1940 and resulted in the F-34 gun by the end of 1940. The F-34 started to be built alongside the L-11 in January 1941 even though no one would approve it, and began to appear on tanks in February. He writes that the T-34 model 1941 was not officially approved until the summer of 1941—after the outbreak of the war.
- Battlefield.ru writes that the L-11 was cancelled in 1939 [1940], the F-34 was tested on tanks in October 1939 [1940] and November 1940, and as a result was recommended for service.[2] [Those dates must be typos, intended to mean 1940, because they disagree with another, Russian-only page at battlefield.ru.[3]] My poor reading of the Russian-language page seems to indicate that the F-34 was only approved for the T-34 tank in July 1941 (this agrees with Zaloga), but that contrary to Grabin, the gun's earlier production had been officially allowed.
- Would you check if any of these dates match what's written in Neizvestnyj T-34? —Michael Z. 2006-09-27 21:39 Z
It was the most-produced tank of the war, and the second most-produced tank of all time, after its successor, the T-54/55 series. Not quite! According to The Illustrated History of Tanks by Andy Lightbody and Joe Poyer, Publications International, Ltd., Lincolnwood, Illinois, there were a total of approximately 40,000 T-34s built during and after World War II, while there were a total of 49,230 American M-4 Sherman tanks built, all during World War II. Lyle F. Padilla, Major, Armor, US Army Reserve (Retired), lpadilla@voicenet.com 207.103.47.144 04:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Model naming
This has been discussed before at talk:T-34/Archive02#Model 1942 or 1943. Apparently official Soviet names from WWII don't correspond exactly to the prevailing model names like T-34 Model 1942, but we have yet to see a reference confirming. Zaloga writes:
It should be noted that the Red Army never had a consistent policy for designating the many sub-variants of the T-34 tank. Some Russian histories refer to the original version as the T-34 Model 1939, rather than the T-34 Model 1940 as used here, or T-34 model 1942 for the variant called T-34 Model 1943 here.
—Steven Zaloga (1994) T-34 Medium Tank 1941–45, p 19
Since this is the only thing written on the subject I've been able to find, I'll update the article to reflect this. If anyone finds any more specific information, please post here. —Michael Z. 2006-09-29 03:02 Z
The Finnish name for T-34 is sotka, which translates in Finnish into "common goldeneye" (Bucephala clangula). Its other Finnish name is "telkkä" (telkkä is western, sotka eastern name). There are various other waterfowls whose name end as "-sotka" (lapasotka, punasotka, tukkasotka etc), but those belong in genus Aythya, not Bucephala).
I've expanded a recent stub about the T-43 tank prototype—please copy-edit and have a look at the talk page. I've also incorporated it here, in the T-34#Evolutionary development section. —Michael Z. 2006-10-06 05:25 Z
Tank as a symbol
How about putting in the "Tank as a symbol" Section " "Rudy" wooden Mock-up tank made by unknown enthusiasts of the Czterej pancerni i pies series from Rawicz" Photo from Młody Technik (Young Technician) nr 4/1970. Somebody must have had too much spare time (and wood). Mieciu K 21:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- My fault, this link should be correct. Mieciu K 16:42, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Use of quotations
I just gotta say... I don't know who put the quotes in there at the start of every new topic, but they are an EXCELLENT addition. Really keeps ones attention, and adds insight to what people were thinking at the time. Pity this can't be put into more articles.
Again, awesome work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ghostalker (talk • contribs) .
Recent anonymous edits
Anonymous editor 12.72.119.116 (talk · contribs) made a series of edits, without edit summaries, which included some changes and deletions which seem to go against the consensus achieved in past edits and long discussions. I'm going to revert this for now, and then discuss some of the specifics here in detail. I think some of these changes should be incorporated. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:47 Z
Edits, comments, and proposed action [please feel free to comment by adding bullet points]:
- [4]
- the latter [BT tank] derived from the M1931 tank designed by J. Walter Christie
- True, but this somewhat specific for inclusion in the intro (the T-26 was also based on a copy of the Vickers 6-Ton). I think the article should just mention that these are both foreign-derived designs. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:54 Z
- It [A-20 prototype] adopted the sloping front armor hull design originally derived from Christie's M1931 tank
- Actually, it was based more directly on extensive research at the KhPZ with the BT-IS and BT-SW-2 prototypes. It's probably worth mentioning some more details about the origins of the T-34's drivetrain, armour layout, superior "shell-proof" protection, and dual-purpose large-calibre gun. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:54 Z
- The T-34 incorporated a sloped hull design for both front and side armor plates, improving its resistance to penetration by armor-piercing shells
- added: In particular, the T-34's sloping front and side armor reduced the effectiveness of German armor-piercing shells; smaller German antitank projectiles simply deflected or bounced off the T-34's armor plating.
- dropped without explanation: The emphasis in the Red Army in 1942–43 was on rebuilding the losses of 1941 and improving tactical proficiency. T-34 production increased rapidly, but the design was 'frozen'—generally, only improvements that sped production were adopted. Soviet designers were well aware of the need to correct certain deficiencies in the design, but these improvements would have cost production time and could not be adopted.
- By the last years of the war, the Red Army's armored forces had significantly improved operational capability, and this, combined with superiority in numbers, helped reduce losses
- T-34/85 tanks
- the latter [BT tank] derived from the M1931 tank designed by J. Walter Christie
- [5]
- Added "Overview" section heading
- even though the majority of experienced factory workers were drafted into the army and replaced by less experienced workers
- After the war, the T-34 went out of large-scale production in the USSR by 1946—This edit drops the production figure of 2,701 tanks built in 1946.
- underwent a modernization program
- [6]
- T-34#Model naming section dropped without comment
- Production tanks were fitted with a commander's cupola—drops a reference to the fact that the cupola was added part way through the Model 1943 production run
- The T-34 is often used as a symbol for the effectiveness of the Soviet counterattack against the Germans.—removed without explanation.
- [7]
- More renaming and minor copy
- [8]
- more renaming
- [9]
- Adds that the MT-17 gasoline engine, used as a stopgap on some T-34s, was based on the Liberty
- [10]
- [11]
- Minor copy
Please comment on my comments. —Michael Z. 2006-10-12 00:47 Z
Protest T-34 in Budapest, Hungary
The 23rd October T-34 incident in Budapest has already gained legendary fame in Hungary, like the partiotic highwaymen of the mid-19th century. Webforums are full of topics like "uncle tank is our hero" or "uncle tank rulez".
One local news portal even made a fun flash game about it, see (click "Indi'ta's" in the lower right corner to start and you hit tables and cars while avoiding police tear gas and water cannons): http://index.hu/img/assets/politika/belfold/turul/t34.swf
195.70.32.136 16:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Western inferiority complex?
Every now and then we read that the Soviets had "inferior tactics", "poor ergonomics", "never really catch up with German designs" and other pseudo-scholarly bla-bla-bla. Any ideas as to why those superior and valliant German gentlemen were lying flat on their faces, with their sore ...sses tightly packed and handed over to them?
curious reader—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.51.183.183 (talk • contribs) .
- I fail to see how long eloquences of Russian crews' inferiority contribute to article about weapon.
- Mostly because the Germans were fighting on multiple fronts, the Russian one being particularly hazardous due to its climate and Russia's sheer size. Also because the Soviets had numbers and certainly not bad quality tanks. The Germans were better trained, and that's a fact.
- some guy—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.60.99.253 (talk • contribs) .
The specifics matter a great deal, as does the big picture when you put it all together—some of this conventional wisdom is mythical. For example, if you read this article, you'll see that it was the Germans who had to first catch up to the Soviets in tank design. And partly because the new designs were too big and complex, they never stood a snowflake's chance in Cairo of catching up in tank production. Meanwhile, the Soviets steadily improved in tactics and training. Another false myth is that the Germans had less resources—in fact they had more than the Soviets, and started the war by depriving the Soviets of much of theirs in the first few months.
Of course, there were hundreds of other important factors. —Michael Z. 2006-11-23 05:13 Z
- The Reichswehr and the Sovjet army had developed tanks together. Wandalstouring 11:25, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- That's another one of often-repeated but not adequately supported legends. Soviets were heavily involved in joint development of armour usage's methods with German Army pre-Nazi. Guderian, for example, studied and worked in Russia for number of years. But traces of joint development of tanks are almost non-existent. T-26 is almost CC of British Vickers 6-ton, BT series is based on Christie designs, T-28 can be considered knock-off of British development school too, tankettes were heavily based on Carden Loyd. I don't see significant influence of German school. German armour pre-Panther also doesn't look like knock-offs of Russian designs.
- Significant factor: the most heavily populated and industrialized, and most agriculturally productive regions of the Soviet Union were also squarely in the path of the German invasion and most had been captured by October 1941; most of the remainder were captured by October 1942. Soviet efforts to remove entire factories and skilled labor forces to more secure eastern locations were phenomenal. - ClemsonTiger 15:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- The Germans had thought about lots of things for their tanks, making them quite complicated machinery, however, repair and maintainance service were not adequate on the Eastern front. The Russian versions did work, but the requirement for this was to have a less elaborate design. Wandalstouring 11:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
T-26 Replacement
This is relevant to note #1, detaling the replacement of the T-26 as the T-50. This would be correct, but it should be considered that the T-26 was also replaced by more than 4,000 T-60s, 8,000 T-70s and T-70Ms and around 80 T-80s. JonCatalan 20:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- Sorta true, but not in theory. The T-50 was supposed to be the only replacement in the T-26's infantry tank role, while the T-60 was intended for reconnaissance and liaison (later replaced by the T-70 and T-80), and the T-34 was planned to replace the BT tanks, but its designers made it fit for a wider role. The T-50 didn't materialize until the T-34 had clearly replaced the T-26 in practice, and shortly the infantry tank idea was out the window anyway. T-60/70/80 were more properly replacements for the T-37/T-38/T-40.
- Perhaps this can be made clearer in the article, but I think it may belong in a note rather than in the main text. —Michael Z. 2007-02-03 06:02 Z
Unit conversion
I've added a comment about the recent addition of unit conversions at User talk:MJCdetroit#Unit conversion in T-34. —Michael Z. 2007-02-03 05:51 Z
Tank
Hi guys, and congrats on getting this to FA status! Notwithstanding the fact that there are only 24 hours in the day, could I ask some of the contributors to this article to help in improving the tank article as well? I had been chipping away at its problems (mainly lack of inline citations) but wasn't fast enough to avert the loss of FA status. So help would be appreciated. Cheers, 00:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Flow
Good article, but I was distracted by the "variants" section, which breaks the flow of the story with long lists and a table. Could we get those moved into a separate section at the end of the article? Zocky | picture popups 02:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
evacuation of soviet industry to ural?
there's a link about "evacuation of tank factories" that leads to a redirect which doesn't contain any information about the relevant evacuation. I'm just reading this article as it was featured, and don't have extra time to track down the correct page, but someone should probably update the link. --18.85.46.22 04:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Objection to FA
This is ridiculous. No inline citation, especially the "Importance" section looks like complete original research to me. Was FA done by sockpuppetting or internal bias within a WikiProject? (Wikimachine 04:40, 5 February 2007 (UTC))
- The article has dozens and dozens of harvard-style inline citations. Raul654 04:58, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- We're not that original :o).--MWAK 08:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- I do have to agree that the FAC appears to have been most cursory and there are dozens if not hundreds of uncited facts. I have noticed that the standards expected of an article for FA status appear to vary wildly from one to the next, and as a esult its output is most uneven. I shall be raising my concerns at the FAC page - PocklingtonDan 09:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- The FA standards do not require a specific citation for every fact (nor does any Wikipedia policy require such). Christopher Parham (talk) 10:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- That's right, thank god we make sure an article's punctuation is correct but not that its facts are correct - PocklingtonDan 16:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- The FA standards do not require a specific citation for every fact (nor does any Wikipedia policy require such). Christopher Parham (talk) 10:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Actually the article was darned good until it made it to the front page. DMorpheus 17:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, it's a great article; although it may be lacking somewhat in citations, putting a citation after every sentence is downright disruptive (this is the first featured article I've actually edited before it was an FA...and they even kept my sentence in the opening paragraph!) and besides, it's been a while since a military FA. Besides citation, I see no reasonable grounds for objection. Antimatter---talk--- 18:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. I just went through the whole thing. The number of fact tags is silly. I could reference most of them off the top of my head but doing so will make the article unreadable. DMorpheus 19:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- I wonder if the person putting all those cite tags on even bothered to check if one citation covered several previous sentences - looks like pointy tagging. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Withdrawn FAR archived here to clear template for new FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Whether it be policy or consensus, the recent trend among FAs is that most factual statements are referenced. Nonetheless, I'm deleting the "importance" section under WP:OR unless refs are provided. (Wikimachine 22:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC))
First tank to use Diesel engine
This claim is of course quite incorrect, see e.g. FCM 36.--MWAK 08:42, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Also see 7TP - substantiate that claim, please --Jinxs 08:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Since production of the 7TP tank was started in 1935 it seems to hold the title of the first mass produced diesel powered tank. But we can still add information thet the T-34 was one of the first tanks powered by a diesel engine. Mieciu K 10:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- After the British Matilda tank as well. GraemeLeggett 11:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Since production of the 7TP tank was started in 1935 it seems to hold the title of the first mass produced diesel powered tank. But we can still add information thet the T-34 was one of the first tanks powered by a diesel engine. Mieciu K 10:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- And there's the Type 95 Ha-Go, also from 1935 :o). But the claim has been removed.--MWAK 12:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism
I was in the process of undoing vandalism when some one else did an edit. I sem to have created an edit to a different version to the one I intended. Why does it do that? I had the offending edits in the window and was reverting back to a more appropriate version minus the vandalism. Ozdaren 11:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
quantity vs quality
I believe that quote is from Lenin and not Stalin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Plosconti (talk • contribs) 14:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC).
- It has been credited to both, more frequently to Stalin, but I haven't yet found a really authoritative citation. DMorpheus 17:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Image
I might be missing something completely, but doesn't the tank shown in the main image (Image:T-34 kal76,2mm RB.jpg) have T39 written on it...? Time3000 16:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- Tanks, even in museums, do not nomally carry their designation painted on the turret. The numbers are tactical numbers, used as radio call signs in combat. I can't quite make it out myself, but it is probably 739. Polish units did not usually use letters in their tac signs. They usually used three or four-digit numbers. DMorpheus 17:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
It's on the front page, why isn't it at least semi-protected?
? -- nyenyec ☎ 18:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
WTF with "citation needed?
What the heck with his "citation needed" peppered all over the text by UBeR (talk · contribs)? Of course, each and every half-sentence in each and every wikipedia article may be tagged with this label. Unless there is a reasonable doubt in the fact mentioned, I suggest to remove these overly-liberal tags, since the user didn't bother to vent his concerns in the talk page. The article is based on serious sources, not some teenager's essay. `'mikka 21:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- I think he's trying to make a point. Trebor 22:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- What? oh... Wait... he is trying to infer that we are unreliable. ffm yes? 22:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't add the citation needed tags myself but I actually agree with them, there are hundreds of uncited assertions in this article which one might reasonably doubt without being shown a cite - PocklingtonDan 08:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- What? oh... Wait... he is trying to infer that we are unreliable. ffm yes? 22:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
- As there are in most wikipedia articles. I don't think its going too far to describe the ridiculous fact-tagging as approaching vandalism, in that it tends to cast doubt on the veracity of the article. Most of the tagged statements are documented in the sources already listed on the page. If we were to add the requested citiations the article would become unreadable. If we were to apply this standard to all wiki articles we'd get nothing else done, and ALL the articles would be unreadable.
- Just to lighten up a bit, can you imagine fact-tagging some of the Wehrmacht-philiac statements in, say, the Tiger II article? DMorpheus 13:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
A few comments:
- I believe a featured article must be put to higher standards than a regular article, and this includes inline citations.
- I have yet to see a WP article that was made unreadable because of too many inline citations. When this becomes common, it's easy to fix with a stylesheet update and/or a user preference setting.
- It's rather unfortunate that there are currently so many "citation needed" labels in a featured article, even when some of them are justified.
-- nyenyec ☎ 15:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Please, for those of you have not yet done so, please read WP:V and WP:NOR. That is all. ~ UBeR 23:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Finnish nickname origins
I have a couple of sources telling a story of how the T-34 got it's nickname "Sotka" in Finland, neither of which claim the tank was named after the bird. Both mention a tank crew member named Suominen seeing the T-34 for the first time, and remarking that the long gun barrel reminded him of the long smokestack on the tugboat he worked on on Lake Ladoga before the war. The tugboat was named Sotka, and that's how the name got transferred to the tank. The books in question are "Viimeiseen mieheen" by Reino Lehväslaiho and "Itä-Karjalan valtaus 1941" by Ari Rautala. Rautala's book mentions Lauri Heino as the original source of this story.
Continued K of FA status
Yeah. So, this article is really good in how it covers a wide range of topics. But, it's lacking references & there are some POV & weasel wording. A lot of it sound like original research (i.e. this is shown by the diary of Alfred Jodl, who seems to have been taken by surprise at the appearance of the T-34 in Riga. The editor used the comments in the diary to shape his own thesis about how the tank demoralized the Germans. Rather, contributors to this article should find a scholarly article that specifically states that the Russian comeback and the successful appearance of the T-34 demoralized the German soldiers significantly. (Wikimachine 22:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
Grammar & English Mistakes
- when the Soviet Union entered the Second World War This sentence is illogical b/c T-34 did not become the best tank the moment Soviet Union entered the WWII. Fix suggestion: It is widely regarded to have been the world's best tank during the years of the World War II.
- Your suggestion almost works. How about "It is widely regarded to have been the world's best tank during the early years of World War II." ?
- although its armour and armament were surpassed by later tanks of the era, Too many passive sentences, as if the writers wanted to sound fancy. A comma is missing in the front. Fix suggestion: , although later tanks of the era surpassed the T-34 in armor and armament,
- If they were "later" then the use of the term "era" is confusing.
- Well, modern era. (Wikimachine 22:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- If they were "later" then the use of the term "era" is confusing.
- Actually, delete the entire "although its armour and armement..." until the end of the sentence. It's STO (statement of the obvious). "world's best" is enough to summarize the entire set of the positive comments.
- Too many naked "it". Try to avoid using 3rd person pronouns unless absolutely necessary. Use phrases such as "T-34" "the tank" "the Soviet vehicle", etc. instead.
- Too many "was" & passive verbs. Always try to use active tense verbs.
- It was the most-produced tank of the war, and the second most-produced tank of all time, Fix suggestion: "In production volume, the T-34 ranks first among the World War II tanks, and remains second in the modern history.
- Too many "thes" don't you think?
- You got me there. (Wikimachine 22:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- Too many "thes" don't you think?
- The design and construction of the tank were continuously refined during the war to improve effectiveness and decrease costs, allowing steadily greater numbers of tanks to be fielded. This could be another STO. Of course a machine's product design is always molded for the better. Of course any weapon would see any net increase in the number of active service during a war. The article should clarify on how better design led to increase in number & to what degree. "Steadily" is too vague & sounds like STO.
- Not really true. For a counter-example look no further than some of the things the Germans did.
- I read the rest of the article, and I see what you mean. (Wikimachine 22:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- Not really true. For a counter-example look no further than some of the things the Germans did.
- with a more powerful 85 mm gun more powerful than xxx mm gun?
- STO, don't you think? The earlier 76.2mm gun is mentioned many times.
- Yeah, but b/c the article's so large, you really can't expect the readers to do all that comparison by themselves. (Wikimachine 22:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- STO, don't you think? The earlier 76.2mm gun is mentioned many times.
- and accounted for the majority of Soviet tank production. Shouldn't it be "was accounted"?
- No, I don't see how that is an improvement.
- "had replaced... and accounted for the majority..." In this instance, "had" applies to both "replaced" and "accounted". But, "had accounted for" is, I think (correct me if I'm wrong), incorrect . "was accounted for" should be it. (Wikimachine 22:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- No, I don't see how that is an improvement.
- It was influential in the development of the late-20th-century concept of the main battle tank. Another be verb. "The T-34 made significant influence in the later development history of the main battle tank" might be better.
- Your suggested change makes no sense.
- Grammatically incorrect? Or unnecessary & abusive of the efforts put into the article? My English teacher told me that, in an essay (or any formal English writing), using passive voice & be verbs is bad - that is, always sound affirmative & clear w/ active voice verbs. This is like a situation where any improvement is good & it doesn't hurt you to make those improvements. (Wikimachine 22:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- Some of the grammar changes you are suggesting are worse than what is already in the article. I agree it could use some editing but let's make it better, not worse. DMorpheus 22:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. (Wikimachine 22:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
- Your suggested change makes no sense.
- Revolutionary design's 2nd sentence: I don't know how to phrase it, but the "light tank" business has to be weaved out because the T-26 is described as the light tank 1st, BT tanks described as cavalry tanks, and then BT tanks are described as light tanks as well. There must be some way to attribute "light tank"ness to both BT & T-26 simultaneously. Also, the number in the 1st sentence, "T-26 tanks and the BT series" kind of don't make sense. Like, comparing tanks to a series of tanks... Thanks. (Wikimachine 23:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC))
Statistics on Citation
Shouldn't the citation be the usual <ref name=""></ref>. Let me add, sections without any citation should be deleted under WP:OR. Currently, "variants", & "other T-34-based AFVs", "T-34-based support vehicles" have absolutely no refs. (Wikimachine 02:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)) By the way, I'm really weary of people giving excuses such as "FA doesn't require that everything be cited". Of course not, but all factual statements should be cited. No excuse acceptable. (Wikimachine 22:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC))
# of References
- Revolutionary Design: 6
- Establishing and maintaining production: 8
- Evolutionary development: 4
- Cost-effectiveness: 1
- Numbers: 1
- Model naming: 2
- Tank models: 1
- Variants: 0
- Other T-34-based AFVs: 0
- T-34-based support vehicles: 0
- Table of tank models: 1
- Combat history: 5
- After World War II: 1
- Other countries: 1
- Combat effectiveness: 4
- Tank as a symbol: 4
- Importance: 3
- Surviving vehicles: 2
# of Factual Statements
- Revolutionary Design: 48
- Establishing and maintaining production: 36
- Evolutionary development: 23
- Cost-effectiveness: 5
- Numbers: 11
- Model naming: 11
- Tank models: 23
- Variants: 8
- Other T-34-based AFVs: 5
- T-34-based support vehicles: 8
- Table of tank models: 1
- Combat history: 55
- After World War II: 15
- Other countries: 3
- Combat effectiveness: 49
- Tank as a symbol: 10
- Importance: 13
- Surviving vehicles: 11
- NOTE: Tables were counted as 1.