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Modern states and ISC
Indepenendent state of Croatia encompassed big part of the territory of modern-day Republic of Croatia, the whole of modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina and Eastern Syrmia now in modern-day Serbia.
Big part, not "most part" of Croatia, because ISC, compared to modern-day Croatia, did not have peninsula Istria, major part of Gorski kotar, Kvarner, no central littoral part of Adriatic coast and the belonging islands, Međimurje, Baranja, as well as small part of Konavle and southeasternmost part of modern-day Croatia.
With the fall of the Italy, that has changed a bit (central littoral part of the Adriatic coast and the belonging islands). Kubura (talk) 02:26, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- That is not entirely correct. The NDH expanded after the Italian collapse in 1943 to include the areas annexed by Italy in 1941. The determiner "most" in this context means "a great majority of", in terms of the proportion of current Croatian territory. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:42, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Just for clarification, here are maps of the NDH pre and post the Italian collapse to demonstrate what I am talking about. When compared to the current map it is clear that "most" is quite an accurate determiner. My apologies if you found my comment rude, it was not intentionally so. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 04:15, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Missing information about Serb Holocaust victims
Information about Holocaust victims of Serb ethnicity is totally absent in this article. This is absurd.
I'm not sure if the POV tag is appropriate, since there are no apparent problems with the existing content. Therefore, I'm applying the Missing Information tag. - Anonimski (talk) 18:21, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
I noticed that the Roma aren't mentioned either, so I put them in the tag comment as well, since they also were a notable group in the 1941-45 persecutions. Anonimski (talk) 18:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Please have a read of the discussion here and at Talk:The Holocaust. There isn't a clear consensus for inclusion of Serbs in The Holocaust. Yes, they were murdered in their hundreds of thousands, but that doesn't make them victims of "The Holocaust". Inclusion requires reliable sources and consensus. Regards, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 00:07, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- If there is well-sourced information to be added then naturally I'm in favor of adding it. I oppose the use of the missing information template, though, until it's clear from talk page discussions that there's information which should be here that is not. I'd also note that there is plenty of scholarship on the nationalist use of a "holocaust template" to model discussions of past persecutions and genocides of their peoples in attempts to parallel the idea that the Jewish people got Israel as recompense for the holocaust and so they too should have nations. See for instance the preface to this book:
- David Bruce Macdonald (2002). Balkan Holocausts?: Serbian and Croatian Victim Centered Propaganda and the War in Yugoslavia. Manchester University Press. ISBN 978-0-7190-6467-8..
- This makes me think there won't be good information to be found, but perhaps I am wrong. The sources, as always, will tell.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 01:12, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- The United States Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. includes extensive discussion of Serbs and Roma victims, as well as Jews in Craotia. See their article "Axis Invasion of Yugoslavia" and in particular the section for Croatia. Many Western historians also talk of genocide in reference to both Serb and Roma victims, among them Jozo Tomasevic, author of widely cited books on WW2 in Yugoslavia, Michael Phayer, the German historian Alexander Korb, etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomislav101 (talk • contribs) 03:43, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, and so add material gradually and make it clear by the judicious use of sources that it's actually relevant to the Holocaust. It shouldn't be so hard if things are as you say. Genocide per se is not the same as the Holocaust.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 03:51, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well it's either add it here, or start a new article on Genocide in the Independent State of Croatia, which also covers the genocide against Serbs and Roma, same as the United States Holocaust Museum covers it on their siteTomislav101 (talk) 05:00, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Yad Vashem also includes multiple ethnicities in the definition, and specifically talks about Serbs (although I didn't find mentions of Roma). Anyway, the whole idea of mentioning other ethnicities should not be discredited just because there's political discussions on how statistics are presented and used in other contexts. There is no reason to exclude other ethnicities from the definition, since it does not reflect the reality on how the word "Holocaust" is used. - Anonimski (talk) 07:08, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Tomislav101 etc, World War II persecution of Serbs already exists, and its specific scope is the genocide of Serbs by the NDH. I suggest you focus your attention there, it needs it. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:57, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Excluding it here is still an incomplete presentation of facts, since many, for example The United States Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. and Yad Vashem include multiple ethnicities' fates when describing the Holocaust. While I agree on that this article's focus should be on the Jewish victims, there should also be a segment with info about what happened to the Serbs and Roma, with "Main article: [...]" templates to World War II persecution of Serbs and Porajmos. As for the other article, I think I need to find a long unbroken period of free time in order to deal with the many issues there, especially when suggesting which sections to keep/move/trim in the parts tagged with "may stray from the topic"... - Anonimski (talk) 18:30, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Tomislav101 etc, World War II persecution of Serbs already exists, and its specific scope is the genocide of Serbs by the NDH. I suggest you focus your attention there, it needs it. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 10:57, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- A much better treatment of this topic is presented on the Croatian language wiki page - here. Unlike this article, the Croatian laguage version doesn't get lost in trivial detail (like banned soccer clubs), and that article also presents much more information on the important facts - mass extermination, concentration, camps, itd. Other article also includes mentions and sections on Roma and Serbs, same as US Holocaust Museum, Yad Vashim and other international sites
- Second question - why did you revert my description of the establishment of first Ustasha concentration camps, and shipping of first Croatian Jews to same? You also reverted my quote of a leading Ustasha leader, Andrija Artukovic, on the extermination of Jews. How are those items not relevant to subject of Holocaust, but 2 banned soccer clubs are?71.135.46.58 (talk) 08:42, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
What I suggest is that this article be brought closer into line with the Croatian language article on the same subject - Holokaust u NDH, since as mentioned, that article has a lot better, a lot more relevant information on the subject. I will start bringing some of that information hereTomislav101 (talk) 01:05, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm adding minor sections about the persecutions against the Serbs and the Roma now, per previous discussion. The disagreements between various Wikipedians in the linked discussion in the beginning will not override Yad Vashem and the United States Holocaust Museum. - Anonimski (talk) 21:25, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Orphaned references in The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "USHMM":
- From Nazi crimes against the Polish nation: "Poles: Victims of the Nazi Era", United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, [1]
- From Nazi eugenics: "Close-up of Richard Jenne, the last child killed by the head nurse at the Kaufbeuren-Irsee euthanasia facility". United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Retrieved July 29, 2011.
- From Lwów Ghetto: "Lwów". Holocaust Encyclopedia. United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Retrieved 2006.
{{cite web}}
: Check date values in:|accessdate=
(help) - From Warsaw Ghetto: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Warsaw Ghetto Uprising Last Updated: May 20, 2008.
- From Jasenovac concentration camp: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
- From Treblinka extermination camp: Holocaust Encyclopedia (10 June 2013). "Treblinka: Chronology". United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Archived from the original (Internet Archive) on 5 June 2012. Retrieved 9 December 2013.
Deportations from Theresienstadt and Bulgarian-occupied territory among others.
- From Timeline of Treblinka: Treblinka: Chronology
- From Łachwa Ghetto: Pallavicini, Stephen and Patt, Avinoam. "Lachwa", An Encyclopedic History of Camps, Ghettos, and Other Detention Sites in Nazi Germany and Nazi-Dominated Territories, 1933-1945: United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. [2] (last accessed September 30, 2006)
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 01:03, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Regarding claims only Zagreb Jewish community managed to survive Holocaust
This citation from the otherwise very reliable Jozo Tomasevicih, is just wrong: "According to Jozo Tomasevich of the 115 Jewish religious communities from Yugoslavia which exist in 1939 and 1940 only Jewish communities managed to survive the war". Here is what the Jewish Virtual Library says on this in its article on Yugoslavia:
- From the end of 1944, when Yugoslavia was liberated, about 14,000 Jews returned to the cities from their places of hiding, the partisan areas, and prison camps. The Federation of Jewish Communities officially reestablished its activities on Oct. 22, 1944, a few days after the liberation of Belgrade, when its surviving chairman, Friedrich Pops, reopened its office. Fifty-six Jewish communities were reconstructed, and the federation, with the aid of the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (JDC) , engaged in a variety of welfare projects, including the reopening of the home for the aged in Zagreb, extending material aid to the needy who began to return to their daily lives, etc. It also reestablished its ties with the World Jewish Congress and other Jewish organizations.
I will check, but I believe Croatian historian Ivo Goldstein says up to 80% of Zagreb Jews were exterminated, and the Zagreb synagogue was destroyed by the Ustashe authorities, with not enough surviving members to reestablish it. By contrast, the main Belgrade synagogue was reopened immediately after liberation in 1944, and a second synagogue functioned in the Zemun area of Belgrade until the 1960s. Articles on Jews in Slovenia, state that the few surviving Slovene Jews sought assistance and advice from the main Jewish community in Belgrade. Also Israeli figures show that when Yugoslavia after 1948 allowed Jews to emigrate to Israel, considerably more Jews came from Serbia than Croatia, indicating that larger proportion of smaller Serb Jewish community was able to survive the Holocaust, than in Croatia. Thhhommmasss (talk) 20:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
- Tomasevich is not contradicted by JVL, because, as you have quoted, JVL says "Fifty-six Jewish communities were reconstructed", not that they "survived the war". This was obviously after the liberation, as an American NGO was involved. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:06, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
@Peacemaker67:On Zagreb Jewish Community data, I think THE reference book on the Holocaust in Croatia, by a well-recognized historian, is preferable to a website quoted on DW. I cite DW myself, but when there are better sources, I use thatThhhommmasss (talk)
@OyMosby: - then why mention in Background 100 plus Jewish communities in Yugoslavia and fact that Zagreb one is only one to survive, when these others have nothing to do with Croatia? Let's drop mention of other Jewish Yugoslav communities outside of Croatia. Fact is Tomasevich and others mention and compare Croatia and other Yugoslav Jewish communities. So does Israeli Aliyah data, which shows that in fact fewer Jews survived to emigrate from ISC, i.e. Croatia/Bosnia than from thoroughly Nazi-exterminated Serbia Thhhommmasss (talk)
- Being that Zagreb was in the NDH, it makes sense. Focusing on that region. Comparing to Occupied Serbia doesn’t seem like the same. Why would it be relevant to state how many Jewish civilians survived in Occupied Serbia as apposed to Occupied Croatia? OyMosby (talk) 01:48, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Fine, let's be consistent and drop from Background section mention that of 100 plus Jewish communities in Yugoslavia, Zagreb Jewish community is only one to survive war, since Jewish communities outside Croatia have nothing to do with Croatia Thhhommmasss (talk) 01:58, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- How is saying “ Zagreb Jewish community is only one to survive war among Yugoslavia” the same as making specific number comparison between occupied Croatia and Occupied Serbia? That’s not consistent. In articles talking about Serbia becoming one of few Judenfrei in Europe, there is no lists of the number of survivors of each European nation compared to Serbia. Again, why the push to compare to Occupied Serbia specifically? If it were the opposite statistic in where Oc Croatia had more survivors than Oc Serbia per capita it still wouldn’t make sense to include a specific comparison like that, to me at least. OyMosby (talk) 02:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Fine, let's be consistent and drop from Background section mention that of 100 plus Jewish communities in Yugoslavia, Zagreb Jewish community is only one to survive war, since Jewish communities outside Croatia have nothing to do with Croatia Thhhommmasss (talk) 01:58, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Did I miss some WP-specific rule that says only my mention of Jews outside of Croatia is not OK, but the mention of Jews outside of Croatia you approve of is perfectly OK? Could you please point it out to me. Btw in the NDH the main role of the “surviving Jewish Community in Zagreb”, as historians describe it, was to be forced to send food to vast majority of Jews that the Ustashe first disposed, then shipped off to concentration camps, with most of the sent food also stolen by the Ustashe, while 80% of NDH Jews were being exterminated, most of them in Ustashe camps. The attempt here is to somehow present this as a “big plus”, compared to what happened to Jews elsewhere in Yugoslavia, just as the extermination of “only” 78% (or “only” 74%) of Zagreb Jews, most of them by Ustashe, is supposed to be some “big plus”. If the Serb quisling government was keeping around a Jewish Community to feed the Jews they were directly exterminating in their own concentration camps, this too would no doubt be a "big plus". Just like someone killing “only” 74% of Croats could also be considered a “big plus” (“hey look on the bright side - fully 26% of Croats survived”) And to be consistent, in the article on the 90s War in Croatia, lets by all means also emphasize somewhere upfront the 3,720,000, or 99,7% of all Croats who managed to survive the war, instead of always being a downer and just talking about the dead Thhhommmasss (talk) 02:33, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- You missed my reply by a long shot. Bad counter argument. Answer my question about how my proposal is not consistent. Whether the content were a “big positive” or not my edit would be the same concerning what I perceived to be off topic comparison with another country. As for the rest of your reply, it has noting to do with me personally or what I said. The OC Croatia number who survived AND emigrated seems far lower than Goldstein’s claim of 9,000 surviving. Likely as it is comparing those who emigrated. Why is the number who emigrated a contrast to number of communities that survived in Yugoslavia? 14% Of prewar population who emigrated from Oc Serbia compared to 10% from NDH area? In your words is this some “big plus”? Only one community surviving as per Tomasevich’s words seems like a substantial statement. Yugoslavia A country which the territories constituting NDH were a part of. Oc Serbia is a separate entity. Why specifically compare to them in terms of number of survivors that emigrated and synagogues restored? Is that supposed to be a relevant counter to Tomasevich’s statement??? “ with the Belgrade community reopening its synagogue, while the Ustashe-destroyed Zagreb synagogue was never reestablished.” Belgrade was the capital of the new Yugoslavia you realize, correct? So what is the implication here? Again post war what was the relevance of this? There is no explanation of context. Again the Holocaust in Serbia article when mentioning Occupied Serbia being one of the first declared Judenfrei in 1942 doesn’t start comparing various other European states in terms of Jewish civilians murdered or survived. You still have not addressed my questions. This was my logic in this. My logic is no more a rule than your logic. So invalid argument there. Also YOU made the edit adding number of surving emigrations not me. So make up your mind if you are for it or against it. I didn’t add the number or percentage of survivors. But when the number of survivors is less than half of what the population was, it’s pretty notable to state. It’s done on numerous articles. Like when up to 250,000 Croats were expelled from Krajina a figures for the number that remained are stated. If you care to mention. So your overly dramatic replies seem unproductive in countering my point. Or we can follow your logic and state “All Jewish communities in Yugoslavia vanished except for in Zagreb”. So as to not sound too positive? @Peacemaker67: can weigh in here as this sort of ties in with your discussion above about the numbers. OyMosby (talk) 04:09, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
Isn’t it fascinating how when people espouse general principles, like don’t mention what happened to Jews elsewhere in Yugoslavia, they always happen to find exceptions, and it's alway the exceptions they approve of, that happen to be the only ones that are OK. I said be consistent, ether take ALL mentions of Jews elsewhere out, or leave them in, and, then you invent stories to justify not being consistent, in order to promote views you approve of. Taking out of context and putting up front that of 100+ Jewish communities in Yugoslavia, only the Zagreb one survived the war, without mentioning that their main purpose was to bear the cost of feeding Jews, whom the Ustashe as the only native genocidal killers of Jews in that very same Yugoslavia were mass-exterminating, is an attempt to make Ustashe look better. Let’s put in the context of what the Ustashe used the Jewish community for and in and I’m fine with that. Otherwise it’s the same attempt to relativize Ustashe genocides as the “Judenfrei Serbia”, you mention, where minimizers of Ustashe genocide “forget” to mention that the Judenfrei Serbia claim was made by Nazis, who per Tomasevich exterminated all the Serb Jews, unlike in Croatia where the majority of Jews where exterminated by the Ustashe, according to Ustashe Racial Laws. Serb quislings were terrible criminals who supported the Nazis, even turned over a few hundred escaped Jews to the Nazis, but there is no evidence that Serb quislings killed a single Jew, whereas the aim of Croat minimizers of Ustashe genocides, who endlessly repeat “Judenfrei Serbia” without context, is to promote the totally false claim that Serb quislings were even worse, and thus relativize Ustashe genocides. Regardless, lets take all mentions of Jews in other parts of Yugoslavia out, including ones you personally approve of, or leave them in, without any nonsense rationalizations why your preferred mention is OK, and others are not. In fact if you think only quotes from Tomasevich are relevant, then in addition to his comparison of what happened to the Jewish communities elsewhere in Yugoslavia, lets add his other quotes which make it clear that the Ustashe were the only quislings in all of Yugoslavia who mass-exterminated Jews (on victim numbers he quotes Zerjavic who says that 73% of the NDH Jews were exterminated in Ustashe camps)Thhhommmasss (talk) 04:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- @OyMosby:In “The Holocaust in Croatia”, Ivo Goldstein compares the inadequate actions of Stepinac with much more activist resistance to the Holocaust of Belgian and French Bishops, noting that this resulted in a much greater proportion of Jews being saved in those countries, compared to 80% of Jews being killed in the NDH. So I see no reason for you to invent your own rules that what happened to Jews outside of Croatia should not be mentioned, particularly when you chose to enforce it so selectively. Btw, I also see no reason why comparison with Croatia and other countries should not be made in the article on the Holocaust in Serbia, as long as they do not attempt to falsify history, as the relativizers of Usthashe genocides do, when they neglect to mention that all the Jews in "Judenfrei Serbia" were exterminated by the Nazis. Thus I will put back a few more comparisons in the article Thhhommmasss (talk) 18:03, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Oh the irony. You literally espoused your principals during this argument. But did not explain why yours are right and mine are wrong. Just more drama no content. Isn’t it funny when people cannot counter your argument so they instead they make revolting claims that you are “Croat minimizing Ustashe crimes” or “Trying to make Serbian Collaborators seem worse” and other baseless garbage? Is this some invisible war you feel you valiantly fight In Wikipedia. Oh lord. As if you aren’t deciding what is and isn’t ok? I am consistent. You still fail to explain how my logic was not consistent. You invented a whole lot in your replies about me and what I “said”. You addressed none of my points just unrelated pretend counter arguments. You claim I “invent stories” or “rules” to run away from having to disproving my points. Not gonna work. I brought up “Judenfrei” as an example of where it is relative to other countries in europe yet articles dont then start listing comparison for each country to Serbia in number of victims. You know very well what my point is. I was not trying to demonize or vilify Serbs or focus on the “Judenfrei” declaration itself. Way to completely misrepresent my argument. Nice attempt at straw manning. Never did I claim the Nedic’s regime to be “worse” or close to Pavlic’s. Never did I say that all the Jews exterminated in Oc Serbia was by Nedic’s regime. More drivel. More egg on your face.
- ” Serb quislings were terrible criminals who supported the Nazis, even turned over a few hundred escaped Jews to the Nazis, but there is no evidence that Serb quislings killed a single Jew” And I am the one making up stories and downplaying crimes???? One could mistake this as a claim by some Serb trying to downplay or distance Serbian collaboration and involvement in the Holocaust. By your own logic that is what you are doing with such a statement. Very misleading. The Banjica Concentration Camp was jointly run by the German Army and Nedic’s regime. Collaborationist armed formations forces were involved, either directly or indirectly, in the mass killings of Jews. Most of the killings at Banjica camp were carried out by the Gestapo. Those committed by the SP UGB and the SDS were carried out under the orders of Belgrade police commissioner Svetozar Vujković. (Antić, Ana (2012). "Police Force Under Occupation: Serbian State Guard and Volunteers' Corps in the Holocaust". In Horowitz, Sara R. (ed.). Back to the Sources: Re-examining Perpetrators, Victims and Bystanders. Evanston: Northwestern University Press. ISBN 978-0-8101-2862-0. PG. 31) So to say not a “single Jew” was killed by Serb quislings is an incredible display. Yes there are Croats who try to downplay Ustashe crimes and as there are Serbs who try to downplay Serb collaborator crimes. If you are so keen on comparisons, then don’t be so selective yourself and mention how Nedic’s government assisted in creating a Judenfrei Serbia which you are reluctant to talk about. If you really do give a toss about consistency m. Am I really the one with bias here? Seems you are really adamant about downplaying Serbian collaborators complicity and crimes even again, in a recent edit comparing NDH to GNS when convenient to pacify GNS. Even though it is incorrect to state that %100 of killing of Jews was done by Germans in Oc Serbia. Clearly you have been projecting tour motives onto me this whole time. You should provide counter sources refuting Tomasevich if he did in fact claim this. Once again, I am not the one selectively editing to custom form a narrative. And I don’t understand the point. The Ustashe were the most evil entity to exist in Balkan history. Why the need to play this game?
- You still haven’t explain how the the Tomasovich sentence I think should be kept is the same sort of content you want to be kept. Your sentence was about total amount of Jews that emigrated from Serbia compared to NDH. Tomasevich’s is about the only remaining Jewish community in Yugoslavia being in Zagreb. How are they related or the same “discussion of events outside NDH”? Again you invented what I said. I never deemed Tomasevich as the only important source.
- I am however totally fine with the inclusion of the fact that unlike the rest of occupied Yugoslavia,the Ustashe regime exterminated the overwhelming majority of Jews themselves In Ustashe run camps as apposed to German forces mainly handling extermination. This should be included if not already. However it goes against other sources to say that the Quisling Serbian Government and collaborators didn’t kill or execute Jews. They did. However majority of killing was by German army.
- Stop looking for personal fights as I have no interest in such behavior. I did not initiate such. You keep changing the subject of conversation from what you initiated it about in the first place. You literally invented YOU OWN RULES in deciding what makes Ustashe “look to good” or not “evil enough”. You keep going on and on and on about some “rule” you claim I made yet never could explain why my point was wrong. Yet you have this “my way or the highway” mentality where your rules are supreme. There is a rule about using Wikipedia to settle some historical score or “right wrongs” or some kind of justice. This is an encyclopedia not a blog. I relativized nothing. You claimed to “put back” parts however everything you edited here since yesterday had nothing to donwith me and my edit. If you are going to compare some things with other countries then compare EVERYTHING, not just what is convenient. Now you should mention that Occupied Serbia became “Judenfrei”. I don’t care if you don’t like it or fear it makes Oc Serbia look worse than it should in your personal opinion. And follow it with the disclaimer that most of the killing was done by German army with assistance of capturing and delivering the victims by the Quisling government forces with some killed by them as well. Simple and factual. No one will mistake it. Demonized no one. Shall we compare the number of “righteous” citizens of both countries and how based on total population, more Croats were recognized than Serbs? Given your obsession with statistical comparison. Or would that be inconvenient? I mean really. I don’t have some agenda here. However yours seems to be just to spite these “Croats who downplay Ustashe”. You can put the part of the sentence I removed back if you think it is so incredibly relevant. Not worth all this back and forth. But really “not one Jew was killed by Serbian Collaboration forces”???? That’s a major downplay. However you seem no different than the Mikola guy below called out by another editor. Both of you driven to “accentuating” the crimes of Croats or Serbs while being selective in sources. So not the right mindset for going about editing Wikipedia articles. And it’s sad that this continues on Balkan articles. You think readers won’t pick up on this when reading the articles? Sad. All I have to say on these matters. I’m done with this conversation. I’m not going to entertain such talk. OyMosby (talk) 20:54, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- You reverted my citations of Israeli sources on emigration from various parts of Yugoslavia, I did not revert yours. And you did it selectively by not reverting other comparisons of what happened to Jews in other parts of Yugoslavia, and then tried to change the subject to what happened in Serbia, or what should or should not be in other articles. You brought up the unrelated “Judenfrei Serbia”, and you’re welcome to add to Holocaust in Serbia any Reliable Sources that prove Serb quislings killed Jews (i.e. who, when and where). In fact I'd be interested in seeing any proof or specifics you have here, since I've not found them myself, and I do like proof. Tomasevich explicitly states that the extermination of the Jews in Serbia was pretty much an entirely Nazi production. I was also going by the Serb-Jewish author Filip David, a ceaseless critic of the complicity of the Nedic regime with the Nazis, whom I’ve not seen mention any specific killings of Jews by Serb quislings, while he does state that Serb quisling forces turned over a few hundred escaped Jews to the Nazis, which is indeed what I cited in addition to Tomasevich. Lets see your sources for accusing me of misrepresenting the Holocaust in Serbia Thhhommmasss (talk) 21:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- My edit was the emigration sentence for Serbia compared to Croatia which seemed pointless as it doesn't tell us what the number of survivors were and therefore why would we need to know how many emigrated from Serbia in an article not about Serbia let alone more emigrating from one country than the other doesn’t tell us anything really in terms of again, number of survivors. Unless I am missing some bigger picture analysis here. That was my only edit as you can see. So Oc Serbia was the topic from the beginning of the discussion. You went further about the regime there, Jews tasked with food distribution, you issues with stating survivors instead or in addition to victims killed, all these having nothing to do with me or my edit. Again I was not selective. I included the source for Nedic’s Regime participating in killings in the paragraph of my previous reply. Not to mention they jointly ran a Concentration camp. Hence my surprise to your claim. I brought up “Judenfrei Serbia” solely as an example of there not being countless countries compared to Serbia about death or survival or emigration statistics. Nowhere did I go on to use “Judenfrei” to prove a point about Serbia itself or attack them. Not at all my point. And why did you specifically state “Serbia and the territories in Yugoslavia” and not simply Yugoslavia when discussing Ustashe engagement in the Holocaust as apposed to Nazi German engagement mainly in the rest of Yugoslavia? Why not list off all the countries then Slovenia, Montenegro, etc. Again, how am I the selective one here? Not to mention again, Germans did not do %100 of the killings in territory outside NDH, as the source I provided shows as example. They did most but not completely. OyMosby (talk) 01:10, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
- Croat and Israeli sources consistently say 50-60% of surviving Croat and Yugoslav Jews emigrated to Israel, do not indicate any big differences in % across republics. It’s relevant since it’s hard data from neutral source, one objective data point, not whole answer. I cited separately Tomasevic on Nazi extermination of Serb Jews, since this is was 2nd greatest number of Jews, he spends much time on it, says nothing about 500+ Slovene Jews exterminated by Nazis, at probably highest rate (87%) in all Yugoslavia. I don’t have access to source you cited, can you provide quote with specifics (i.e. names, dates and places) where Serb quislings killed Jews, not just generalities about being collaborators. I view both Nedic and Ustase regimes as criminal Nazi collaborators (Tomasevich says 2-3,000 Nedic-ites were killed by Partisans at Bleiburg, probably got what they deserved), but only Ustase carried out their own policy of systematic genocide of Jews, Roma and Serbs, and that’s what historians I read state. Btw, as someone of Croat heritage, I’ve no interest in Serb vs. Croat disputes, but am particularly appalled by crimes perpetrated in name of Croathood, thus seek to write truth on same. I don’t know who thinks what, so as I said, I’ve only seen mention of Judenfrei Serbia from minimizers of Ustase genocides Thhhommmasss (talk) 03:29, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
I'd just like to point out that this recent edit to the article is merely part of a broader blitz conducted by Mikola22 designed to obfuscate the severity of the genocide/holocaust in the NDH, while at the same time accentuating or attempting to exaggerate the crimes in WWII Serbia. This is done through the cherry-picking of information and sources (some questionable), repetition of information already found in an article and then copying it to a bunch of other articles as well the addition of (occasionally misleading) text in malformed broken English. --Griboski (talk) 17:49, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- Griboski, if you have evidence that Mikola22 is doing sth disruptive or has some kind of "agenda", you should present that at ANI/I or AE. The talk page of the article is not a place for accusations. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- It relates to this discussion as it is his edit. You are correct though, this isn't the place to get into it. Thanks for the tip. --Griboski (talk) 18:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Griboski: I'm waiting for you on ANI/I or AE to see what it is all about now and you call the editor Sadko to be as strong as possible in your arguments(I coming alone). It is interesting that you(all) have been waiting for me in 2020 in the article of Milan Nedić, Stjepan Filipović(where not even the year of his capture to this day has been accurate) Judenfrei article and this information which says nothing (German-occupied territory of Serbia / Belgrade – May 1942, reported in the SS-Standartenführer Emanuel Schäfer cable sent to the Reich Main Security Office in Berlin; Schäfer was the Der Befehlshaber der SIPO und des SD head at that time in Belgrade) etc....therefore, probably some team is working to get data from various RS outside of wikipedia ie not entering them. And now when I'm starting to change it in 2020, it's panic. Which edits you(all) have on such and similar articles? Mikola22 (talk) 18:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
- It relates to this discussion as it is his edit. You are correct though, this isn't the place to get into it. Thanks for the tip. --Griboski (talk) 18:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
As far as I know The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah, was the World War II genocide of the European Jews. And here you added Serbs and Roma. So then add Roma in the article.I can't because the site has semi protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Serbia here is the source https://balkaninsight.com/2018/12/17/serbia-s-forgotten-role-in-the-roma-holocaust-12-14-2018/
Requested move 2 June 2020
The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia → The Holocaust in Croatia – At the time of writing, this is the only country-related Holocaust article on the English Wikipedia that contains a qualifier, in this case "the Independent State of..." Why the title of this particular article was singled out for this kind of treatment remains a mystery. For example, we have The Holocaust in Germany, not The Holocaust in Nazi Germany; The Holocaust in Italy, not The Holocaust in the Kingdom of Italy; The Holocaust in Serbia, not the Holocaust in the Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia, and so on.
The Independent State of Croatia was the only entity called Croatia that took part in World War II, removing any room for confusion or doubt, and by extension, negating the purpose of the aforementioned qualifier. I do not agree with editors who argue that the NDH cannot otherwise be referred to simply as Croatia in some instances or that NDH citizens should not be referred to by the demonym Croatian. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 15:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I see that there are other related articles, such as Concentration camps in the Independent State of Croatia, with the main article stating that it "was a World War II-era puppet state of Nazi Germany", so I don't know if this is a clear-cut move or not. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 16:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Concentration camps in the Independent State of Croatia isn't as problematic for the sole reason that it delineates the time period during which those camps existed. It distinguishes those camps from the ones that existed in Croatia during the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990s. On the other hand, there was only one historical event known as The Holocaust in the country of Croatia and that historical event happened to coincide with the Independent State of Croatia's existence. Hence, the qualifier "the Independent State of..." is simply not necessary. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 17:07, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- I am not that familiar with Concentration Camps in Croatia in the 1990s during the Yugoslav Wars. Not sure if they were comparable or extermination camps as succh. In any case the reason for the difference in naming for both articles would be that there was also the The Federal State of Croatia (1943–1945) during WWII that overlapped NDH. NDH was a puppet state not deemed sovereign. Hence why the actual name is used. Not sure what it is obscuring or how it is dishonest of editors to be alright with the name being used. Perhaps other editors can input. OyMosby (talk) 17:54, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- The fact that there was also a Federal State of Croatia which had its own separate claim to sovereignty on the territory of the NDH further reinforces my argument that this article should be renamed The Holocaust in Croatia. Moreover, one of the most in-depth works about the Holocaust in Croatia available in the English language is Slavko and Ivo Goldstein's aptly titled The Holocaust in Croatia. It covers the Holocaust in all the territories of the NDH, including Bosnia. Tellingly, it isn't titled The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia.
- This shouldn't come as much of a surprise. The NDH wasn't comparable to the other satellite/puppet states in the Balkans. In contemporary documents Axis officials often simply referred to it as Kroatien or Croazia. The state also had its own embassies and consulates abroad. On somewhat of a side note, it even had an official football team, which wasn't referred to as the NDH national football team (on the contrary, it is recognized by FIFA as the predecessor to the current Croatian national football team). I could go on and on. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 21:32, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- How does Federal Croatia strengthen your point? That administration was not involved in the Holocaust of Jewish people. And would be a gross confusion of the two states. Being that there were two claimed forms of Croatia, it should be noted which one the Ustashe waged their genocides. It would basically cast Fed Croatia as not a legitimate entity during WWII but NDH only which would be very pov. I would argue the same for Holocaust in Serbia as the territory of Modern Serbia was Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia and Fed Serbia. Though I have seen “Serbia” marked on maps during WWII as well. Independent State of Croatia was the name of the German-Italian puppet state. It was a state that had to answer to German and partly Italy despite having some of the greatest autonomy among Axis puppet states. I think the difference between the two is important to make clear. Also The Ustashe liked to believe they were the “official” Croatians in Croatia with their own claimed Croatian team. They can claim whatever, it’s not a solid argument. The only point I see of yours is the reference of Holocaust in Croatia, however on Wikipedia it should be noted that there were two states Claiming to be the true Croatia. It was Axis powers that recognized NDH. I don’t see how using Independent State of Croatia is an issue or takes anything away from the article or what happened. Also speaking of predecessor, historians and the Nurnberg trails rules NDH as nor a legitimate independent state and not the predecessor to Croatia (Although Croatian ultranationalists there would like to believe NDH as some aorr of positive forefather). So via your football logic, Independent State of Croatia would be the proper wording. OyMosby (talk) 22:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Just because the Federal State of Croatia wasn't complicit in the Holocaust, doesn't mean the Holocaust was not still being committed on territories that it lay claim to. In any event, the NDH was the only country called Croatia that participated in WW2. The Federal State of Croatia was an arm of the National Liberation Movement and later a federal subject of socialist Yugoslavia, not a sovereign entity in and of itself. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 16:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- How does Federal Croatia strengthen your point? That administration was not involved in the Holocaust of Jewish people. And would be a gross confusion of the two states. Being that there were two claimed forms of Croatia, it should be noted which one the Ustashe waged their genocides. It would basically cast Fed Croatia as not a legitimate entity during WWII but NDH only which would be very pov. I would argue the same for Holocaust in Serbia as the territory of Modern Serbia was Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia and Fed Serbia. Though I have seen “Serbia” marked on maps during WWII as well. Independent State of Croatia was the name of the German-Italian puppet state. It was a state that had to answer to German and partly Italy despite having some of the greatest autonomy among Axis puppet states. I think the difference between the two is important to make clear. Also The Ustashe liked to believe they were the “official” Croatians in Croatia with their own claimed Croatian team. They can claim whatever, it’s not a solid argument. The only point I see of yours is the reference of Holocaust in Croatia, however on Wikipedia it should be noted that there were two states Claiming to be the true Croatia. It was Axis powers that recognized NDH. I don’t see how using Independent State of Croatia is an issue or takes anything away from the article or what happened. Also speaking of predecessor, historians and the Nurnberg trails rules NDH as nor a legitimate independent state and not the predecessor to Croatia (Although Croatian ultranationalists there would like to believe NDH as some aorr of positive forefather). So via your football logic, Independent State of Croatia would be the proper wording. OyMosby (talk) 22:49, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- I am not that familiar with Concentration Camps in Croatia in the 1990s during the Yugoslav Wars. Not sure if they were comparable or extermination camps as succh. In any case the reason for the difference in naming for both articles would be that there was also the The Federal State of Croatia (1943–1945) during WWII that overlapped NDH. NDH was a puppet state not deemed sovereign. Hence why the actual name is used. Not sure what it is obscuring or how it is dishonest of editors to be alright with the name being used. Perhaps other editors can input. OyMosby (talk) 17:54, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Concentration camps in the Independent State of Croatia isn't as problematic for the sole reason that it delineates the time period during which those camps existed. It distinguishes those camps from the ones that existed in Croatia during the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990s. On the other hand, there was only one historical event known as The Holocaust in the country of Croatia and that historical event happened to coincide with the Independent State of Croatia's existence. Hence, the qualifier "the Independent State of..." is simply not necessary. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 17:07, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- No NDH is not only Croatia, it is and Bosnia and Herzegovina. A large part of Serbs are killed in or they are from Bosnia and Herzegovina. Does this mean that we should have another article concerning Holocaust in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Anyway because it is official name of the German satellite which includes territories of another states including and part of Serbia I think that NDH name covers all that territories. For stated reasons my answer would be no.Mikola22 (talk) 18:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
- Absolutely not - this would change the scope of the article, and make sourcing it much harder. Holocaust articles should be based on the geopolitical entity of the time, not the current state; it is ahistorical. It would also be contrary to WP:ARTICLETITLE, especially recognisability and precision. And frankly, it is highly POV. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure what to think on this. For example, there was no geopolitical entity called Serbia at the time. The official name of rump Serbia was ""Gebiet des Militärbefehlshabers in Serbien", i.e. the Territory of the German Military Commander in Serbia. So shouldn't there be an article called: The Holocaust in the German Military Territory in Serbia? The rest of Serbia did not exist at all, since it was carved up. Most Serb Jews were killed in Vojvodina, a main chunk of which was annexed by Hungary, so the Holocaust there should by the same logic be part of Holocaust in Hungary, and Jews killed in Bulgarian-annexed or Italian-Albanian annexed areas were part of those political entities, not anything called Serbia at the time Thhhommmasss (talk) 03:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Don't get distracted by WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments. That article should probably be at The Holocaust in German-occupied Serbia, but how is that relevant to this? This RM should stand or fall on its merits and how it stacks up against WP:ARTICLETITLE. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- By referring to WP:ARTICLETITLE I assume you are alluding to the tenet of precision. But WP:ARTICLETITLE notes that conciseness is also something to consider. The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia is a horribly verbose title that isn't used by the two leading institutional authorities on the Holocaust. On the contrary, both Yad Vashem and the USHMM describe it as The Holocaust in Croatia and not the Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia. See [3] [4]
- For the record, I also oppose The Holocaust in Serbia being renamed The Holocaust in German-occupied Serbia. Most countries where the Holocaust took place were occupied in one way or another. I see no reason for setting such a precedent for no valid reason. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 16:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- @Amanuensis Balkanicus: you replaced The Holocaust in Serbia to The Holocaust in German-occupied Serbia without talking to others, referring to Yad Vashem and the USHMM and there it says Holocaust in Serbia. See [5] [6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.143.216 (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Don't get distracted by WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments. That article should probably be at The Holocaust in German-occupied Serbia, but how is that relevant to this? This RM should stand or fall on its merits and how it stacks up against WP:ARTICLETITLE. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure what to think on this. For example, there was no geopolitical entity called Serbia at the time. The official name of rump Serbia was ""Gebiet des Militärbefehlshabers in Serbien", i.e. the Territory of the German Military Commander in Serbia. So shouldn't there be an article called: The Holocaust in the German Military Territory in Serbia? The rest of Serbia did not exist at all, since it was carved up. Most Serb Jews were killed in Vojvodina, a main chunk of which was annexed by Hungary, so the Holocaust there should by the same logic be part of Holocaust in Hungary, and Jews killed in Bulgarian-annexed or Italian-Albanian annexed areas were part of those political entities, not anything called Serbia at the time Thhhommmasss (talk) 03:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- No - the Independent State of Croatia is usually refered to as the Independent State of Croatia, and the holocaust happened in that entity. There was at the time still legally the Banovina of Croatia and later the Federal State of Croatia. Tezwoo (talk) 17:02, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support I was leaning toward oppose, but the point above of the leading authorities of the U.S. Holocaust Museum and Yad Vashem both using the term The Holocaust in Croatia, and both meaning the entire ISC territory, has gotten me to reconsider. I believe there should be an extremely high hurdle in going with anything different than these 2 institutions, plus this does seem the only exception to WP's Holocaust titles for all other countries. As I noted, if it stays, then the Holocaust in Serbia article should be renamed, since there was no political-entity Serbia at the time. Don't know if there's a WP:Consistency, but there should be one Thhhommmasss (talk) 17:34, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- Support Per great comments and argumentst presented by Thomas and AB. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 18:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
- How do you support when you did an edit today. Article "The Holocaust in Serbia" you renamed to "The Holocaust in German-occupied Serbia" and now you would "The Holocaust in the Independent State of Croatia" renamed to "The Holocaust in Croatia"? Are you an editor with a consistent attitude or you just playing with wikipedia? Mikola22 (talk) 20:17, 3 June 2020 (UTC)