→Date of resignation: nevermind |
→This is truly amazing(and hilarious): repeat, Stop it. |
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::::::Please [[WP:AGF]], and comment on edits and not users alleged motives, your crytal ball notwithstanding.--[[User:Die4Dixie|Die4Dixie]] ([[User talk:Die4Dixie|talk]]) 15:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC) |
::::::Please [[WP:AGF]], and comment on edits and not users alleged motives, your crytal ball notwithstanding.--[[User:Die4Dixie|Die4Dixie]] ([[User talk:Die4Dixie|talk]]) 15:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::I did comment on his edits. I also urge you to WP:AGF and please do not post threats on my talk page. [[User:Reliefappearance|Reliefappearance]] ([[User talk:Reliefappearance|talk]]) 16:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC) |
:::::::I did comment on his edits. I also urge you to WP:AGF and please do not post threats on my talk page. [[User:Reliefappearance|Reliefappearance]] ([[User talk:Reliefappearance|talk]]) 16:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::::You did comment on his edits, and also on your ideas about his and other edotors motives. Stop this behaviour, as it is disruptive to the collaborative nature of this project. As I pointed out to you on your talk page, I do not wish to ngage you in lenthly debate about your misbehaviour. Correct it if you would like to continu editing.--[[User:Die4Dixie|Die4Dixie]] ([[User talk:Die4Dixie|talk]]) 17:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC) |
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== Date of resignation == |
== Date of resignation == |
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Fix the Bias
Another thing wrong on the main page is that van jones did not just get involved with STORM but FOUNDED IT!!!
Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement (STORM) is van jones CREATION!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Altrek242 (talk • contribs) 13:01, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I'll say it again: Restore my "Controversy" section. The user who removed that section essentially invites people to mix ideology with facts. Plus, there's no doubt in my mind that it's the "Controversy" that prompts the "customer" public to this page. Furthermore, controversy sections are completely valid in a biographical article, especially when controversy is part of that person's life. Witness Jimmy Wales' page. For those NOT "in the know" Jimmy Wales is a co-founder of Wikipedia and is the founder of Wikimedia. NB and Observe carefully: controversy surrounds Wales AND IT IS DESCRIBED IN ITS OWN SECTION. Keep this page to substantiated germane fact and move the controversy and creatively colorful wording (read: "bias") back to the Controversy section! Think objectively as the founder of Wikipedia intended and help keep Wikipedia as a neutral resource. Need help with objectism? Go read Ayn Rand.
Without isolating controversy from the facts, presentation of the facts will continue to be tainted by bias. Controversy is relevant, and isolating it will help to keep ideology from tainting facts.
Frankly, I think this page is an embarrassment to Wikipedia (Glenn Beck called attention to it, which harms Wikipedia's credibility and reputation in some measure, and this got my attention). Certain people should be blushing over their appearance in its history and one user in particular has a persistence that calls his/her neutrality into question. (S)he may not necessarily be a vandal to the page but (s)he is definitely a vandal to Wikipedia's mission and image... - JayWhitney (talk) 16:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- Frankly, adding a Controversy or Reception section invites more battles than it's worth. Some editors seem to have enough difficulty distinguishing between where simple facts should be stated and where a topic can be elaborated upon. This man's entire life is controversial - for the time being, for the sake of neutrality, I recommend working with the article's present format. Regards, ObserverNY (talk) 16:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Van Jones said he was a "communist"; it is part of his life, it should be on his page! Somebody with a modicum of social responsibility for the sake of accuracy should re-add this reference to the first mention of his labeling himself a "communist":
This is a serious omission, among many others on Van Jones that do harm to wikipedia's image. JohnHistory (talk) 23:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
(Has the East Bay Express been deemed "not a credible publication"?
Respectful observation: This is what happens when when people with inherent bias are allowed to moderate and control political exposition. NB: I was a teacher. Silence the dissenters (read as: "Quiet class!")
Just a little superscript and you'll likely end the dabate. - JayWhitney (talk) 11:09, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- You're absolutely right. Van Jones is and has been for the last 17 years a self-avowed communist even naming his four year old son after a guerilla fighter. He is also a CZAR not a special advisor but a CZAR unfortunately this FisherQueen that has protected his page from the truth being told works for him or for the White House. Hey FisherQueen! If you have the guts to read these messages why don't you unprotect your master's wikipedia page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.1.132.103 (talk) 09:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I seem to have permission to edit this page, so in the spirit of my evangelical-esque desire that Wikipedia remain a bastion of fact (I use it a lot for medicine, where there is actual peer review to fall back upon), I've made some changes that hopefully offer a step towards resolving this brouhaha.
I've added a "Controversy" section and moved anything that is not said by Van Jones himself or are statements or opinions of others such as Glenn Beck, Eva Paterson, and other bloggers there. The central debate/controversy seems to be whether or not Mr. Jones is still a communist. It's a bunch of he-said/she-said of opinion and things that cannot be corroborated. History seems clear and documented, it's the present that is a matter of controversy. Writing in Wikipedia does not create fact nor does it change history. Wikipedia reflects fact and cites history.
I pre-justify the Controversy section as the existence of the controversy is fact, and must be germane given the attention it gets and given the debate about edits to this page.
Plus, consider that the fame and notoriety from this controversy is why many would visit this Wiki page and people are probably at least as interested in the controversy as they are in Van Jones himself. - JayWhitney (talk) 14:15, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
This article is blatantly POV and an embarrassment to wikipedia. The absence of detail of this man's radical communist views, given his closeness to the president, is incredible. I dont have time to edit war with committed leftists, but I hope others will note the blatant sanitization of the entire article and the absence of documentation of who this man really is. Hadrianheugh (talk) 21:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- This is a biographical article in an encyclopedia, not an ideological essay that explains what is important because of someone's "closeness to the president" or any other political considerations. It is supposed to neutrally summarize the facts about the subject as they are presented in reliable sources. The article already mentions that he became a communist, that he worked with an avowedly Marxist organization, etc. But these are not the only things that he has done, and the article reflects that. Just because these things are repeated a million times in blogs does not mean they should take up the majority of the article. If you have facts from reliable sources (not original research based on interpreting quotes) that you believe are missing from the article, please name the specific facts and supply the sources. Drive-by carping does not help to improve anything. --RL0919 (talk) 21:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with RL0919. The article is not blatantly POV, however I have been trying to stave off a blatantly pro-Jones editor from inserting feel good fluff in the overview. Let the facts speak for themselves. ObserverNY (talk) 23:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- the section where beck is quoted just seems to make beck look like an intolerant racist conservative asshole, it doesn't balance out the article at all, does anyone else think so? that section Should be rewritten so it's more NPOV
- The only direct Van Jones quotation where he mentions being a communist is plain. He says, in reflection on younger days, "I was a communist." Using this quotation to justify claims that he is still a communist shows a blatant disregard for both the literal sense of the words on the page -- it is called PAST tense for a reason -- and the intent of the quote, which was to reflect on his former days of being too radical. I'm no pro-Jones sympathizer, but I at least think references to Jones' "self-identification as a communist" should consistently say something like "former self-identification" or "self-identification as a communist at one point in his life." It seems a fair compromise; the right gets to have its field day calling people communist, and the left gets to at least make sure the right doesn't temporally skew the bare facts of the matter. Sighter Goliant (talk) 08:48, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Semi-Protection
Given Glenn Beck's coverage of Van Jones, I think this page should be semi-protected. After all, Beck's Wikipedia page is semi-protected.
Reliefappearance (talk) 13:52, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
How funny that each day as Mr. Van Jones gets more coverage and people find out more radical things about him, the content of this source of information is changed and revised to make him look less frightening. Too bad that the people who are doing this forgot to do it before the word got out and everyone looked up and printed the facts about Mr. Van Jones. Obama should have thought about this before he named him the Green Jobs Czar, before he designed the now famous and useless "stimulus" package that has not stimulated anything other than the pockets of the unions, ACORN, the Apollo Project, the Tides Foundation, Social Justice movements and who knows how many other radical left and communist organizations that are trying to take over our country.
- None of this general-purpose ranting has anything to do with the subject of this article. I know it's taken as given amongst the bug-eyed Glenn Beck crowd that Obama has engineered a commie takeover of the US, but that's not a mainstream political opinion. It's crazy talk. This article has been taken over by nutjobs. To read it, you'd think that something he said fifteen years ago matters far more than all the work he's done since then. It's a classic smear job and doesn't belong here. Here's a hint: Van Jones is not currently a communist. 24.19.56.18 (talk) 17:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Van Jones' past is not that easy to erase. Never thought I would see the day when an ex-convict who would not be allowed to hold a low level job at any city or county due to the fact that he would have failed the background check that is required, would get to visit the White House on a regular basis and hold the job of counselor to the President on issues related to the environment, jobs, and the economy. It is a very sad day in America when peace-loving Americans are told they are acting "un-American" only because they are voicing opinions related to freedom of choice about a health plan that is being pushed on them, freedom of speech and questioning if their representatives in Congress are reading the bill. Now people surrounding the President of the United States are radicals, nationalists, communists, and extremists and it is all good, all considered business as usual.
Oh, but let's not forget that terrorists have rights. Mr. Van Jones has been a big advocate of prisoners' rights in the past. I wonder if he had anything to do with giving terrorists the right to remain silent, get an attorney, and making sure the CIA no longer is allowed to question them. Our founding fathers must be turning in their graves as they see what is happening in America today. It will not be long before the Constitution is revised to fit the agenda of Mr. Van Jones and our other new leaders.
Mr. Van Jones' "Color of Change" organization has been trying to silence the opposition by collecting signatures to get advertisers to stop promoting their products on the Glenn Beck program. He may be the force behind the decision to have a new Diversity Czar who will make sure to forever quiet the voices of those who do not agree. Be prepared to see radical changes in the airways, on the internet and any other mass media outlets.
Communism is alive and well in America! Our nation is being "Fundamentally Transformed" just as Obama promised. We will be told how to think, what to eat, how many kids we can have and how we should raise them, how much we should weight, what type of cars we should drive and how old we should be when it is time to die with dignity before we end up costing the government too much money. Smoking, drinking and having fun will be a thing of the past.
Radical changes from radical leaders like Mr. Van Jones are now taking place in America. September 11th has now been declared and signed into law by our president as "A day of Service"(?). What happened to remembering those who died painfully and innocently on that awful day as they went to work? Why is no one in NY complaining about this? Are they all blind or do they no longer care? Did our President think of consulting the families of those who died that day? Why is no one asking those questions? No, this is definitely a new era, an era of "responsibility"; isn't this what our President told us on his Inaugural speech? In the minds of the new Democrat Party, Americans are not sophisticated enough to know how to run their own lives so they need to be told. How is that CHANGE working for you?
[Special:Contributions/75.74.249.161|75.74.249.161]] (talk) 02:50, 27 August 2009 (UTC) 75.74.249.161 (talk) 03:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
- Do you have any suggestions for improving the article?
- Help:Wikipedia:_The_Missing_Manual/Collaborating_with_Other_Editors/Communicating_with_Your_Fellow_Editors
- Reliefappearance (talk) 19:19, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok folks lets get this on the level this man is a self proclaimed communist. Therefore it needs to be a major part of this mans page. I feel that something like that needs to been known by everyone. How would you feel if a guy was a confirmed pedophile and later decided to change his ways are you going to let him run your kids daycare? Its the same thing when a communist is allowed to become part of our republic we stand to lose more than anyone can imagine.
Here is a quote from the communist himself, “I met all these young radical people of color — I mean really radical, communists and anarchists. And it was, like, ‘This is what I need to be a part of.’” Although he already had a plane ticket, he decided to stay in San Francisco. “I spent the next ten years of my life working with a lot of those people I met in jail, trying to be a revolutionary.” In the months that followed, he let go of any lingering thoughts that he might fit in with the status quo. “I was a rowdy nationalist on April 28th, and then the verdicts came down on April 29th,” he said. “By August, I was a communist.”
- Do you have any suggestions for improving the article?
- Help:Wikipedia:_The_Missing_Manual/Collaborating_with_Other_Editors/Communicating_with_Your_Fellow_Editors
- Reliefappearance (talk) 17:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Van Jones as issued two apologies through the whitehouse in 24 hours. That is the real deal folks. JohnHistory (talk) 23:30, 4 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Add category communist
This man is a self-described communist who has devoted much of his life to marxist-leninism. He belongs in the category American communists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.140.85.63 (talk) 05:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
- [Interjected] What's the source? Be bold and add it if you have a source. 24.199.34.242 (talk) 23:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
- Here's a source, the East Bay Express for one:
- Jones told the East Bay Express in 2005:
- "I was a rowdy nationalist on April 28th [1992], and then the verdicts came down on April 29th. By August, I was a communist. (...)"
- "I met all these young radical people of color – I mean really radical: communists and anarchists. And it was, like, 'This is what I need to be a part of.' I spent the next ten years of my life working with a lot of those people I met in jail, trying to be a revolutionary."
- But i'm sure this will be scrubbed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.226.108.228 (talk) 20:12, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
- He was once a college student, so should he be categorized as a former college student? The political evolution section explains the context of the communist references and clearly explains that he's a proponent of market based solutions.
- Gfanslow (talk) 13:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
It's oxymoronic to present "as fact" an avowed communist who favors market solutions. Market solutions fall within the realm of capitalism. He can't have it both ways...it's clearly codespeak. Thoughtthinker (talk) 18:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- This man is very controversial and has made several offensive public statements. The Wikipedia page sounds as though Mr. Jones edited it himself. I wish someone more familiar with Wikipedia than myself would give a more complete picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.171.34.222 (talk) 23:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
gfanslow, you are obstructing logic. What you said would be like if someone else said "so and so was a part of the NBA" and then you say it that shouldn't be added, because then shouldn't we add that so and so is also a human being? Do you see how wrong that is? You can't compare avowed communists with the number of college grads. You just can't. JohnHistory (talk) 23:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- I agree with the above, its nice that a commie nutjob gets appointed to such a high ranking position, I know ill sleep better at night. I also enjoyed all of his 'many awards' all in 2008? lmfao —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.255.18.151 (talk) 10:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
- What's the source? Be bold and add it if you have a source. 24.199.34.242 (talk) 23:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Seems like user User:Hidenothing:Hidenothing is whitewashing this page pretty often. Can anything be done about this? 98.221.253.140 (talk) 20:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Wow, must be nice to be an admitted communist and somehow get a job working for the United States government. Looks like Messiah Obama's time with Racist Reverand Wright and government-hater William Ayers has carried over into his Presidency. What a sick world we are living in!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.202.229 (talk) 13:31, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
- It's clear that the people adding this are adding it for the purposes of promoting a non-neutral point of view. Is there a way of phrasing this information that communicates what is important about this person without telling readers what to think about him? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:48, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
- I've given in a try. The paragraph didn't fit well in the introduction- I moved the information about his young activism to the section about his youth. The fact that he holds a White House position is already the subject of a pargraph in the article, but this paragraph didn't add any new information from reliable sources; the section on "Color of Change" would be an interesting new paragraph, but no reliable sources were cited that I could use to create such a paragraph. New users- Wikipedia is only for communicating verifiable facts, and not for drawing conclusions or making judgements; see WP:NPOV for more information on that. Obviously there's still plenty of room for improvement of this article as more sources write about Jones.-FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:01, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
hey fisherqueen i've been reading these comments tha you ask for sources but I must have missed the source that has van jones publicly denouncing that he is still a communuist. please tell me what that source is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.54.176.39 (talk) 18:39, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding the category- the article cited says that he was in a socialist organization in his youth, but it seems to imply that he is no longer part of that organization. Can we get a source verifying that he still identifies himself as a socialist or a communist, or is a member of the Socialist or Communist Party? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:03, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
- It's oxymoronic to present "as fact" an avowed communist who favors market solutions. Market solutions fall within the realm of capitalism. He can't have it both ways...it's clearly codespeak. Thoughtthinker (talk) 18:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- Clearly codespeak? What does that even mean? Do you have any idea how crazy you sound? This article is under attack. 24.19.56.18 (talk) 17:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
If, after labeling himself a communist, Van Jones eagerly embraced capitalism, it must be asked: is it possible that he didn't really understand the meaning and implications of the term "communist" when he ascribed it to himself? Is it possible that what's going on here is a semantical war between ideologues, one that boils down to much ado about little? --Panglos (talk) 10:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
the "Awards and honors" section
this section seems extremely POV, i checked several other Wikipedia biography pages and none of them had a section like it, where even the trivial awards are listed for all to see. more prominent people who have won more awards than him do not have such a section(Bill Gates for example, and he is a knight of the realm). and some of the stuff are trivial (“Sexiest Men Living”) , plain useless ("Elle Magazine Green Award"), and just downright POV (the rest of them). the awards should be either written into the article or just deleted outright.Random219 (talk) 22:13, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- Lists like this do appear in other biographical articles (and occasionally there will even be a whole article of such), but it is easy for them to become trivial. I haven't looked at the list in this article too closely (because there have been plenty of other things to do with this article), but it probably just needs culling so it focuses on more significant items (things like fellowships and awards from notable foundations) and omits most of the magazine/website list entries. --RL0919 (talk) 22:48, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- I made a first pass at cutting things that shouldn't be there. (For example, having a bestselling book is an achievement, but it is not an "award" or an "honor".) --RL0919 (talk) 22:59, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
"Color of Change"
Shouldn't this article at least mention the group "Color of Change?" He seems to be deeply associated with it. Here is the article I found about this.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=33134
And plus, he is mentioned in the wiki article for Color of Change.
Jessemckay (talk) 22:40-22:44, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
This speaks to objectivity. "Wow, must be nice to be an admitted communist and somehow get a job working for the United States government. Looks like Messiah Obama's time with Racist Reverend Wright and government-hater William Ayers has carried over into his Presidency. What a sick world we are living in!!!!" I had to edit "Reverend" because it was misspelled. This was a give away. Most conservatives can't spell "Obama." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.12.254.179 (talk) 06:23, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
- And your objectivity is worthy of everyone's envy isn't it. Nice job proving you're an idiot too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.177.204.222 (talk) 15:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Removals of Carefully Cited Information
Attempts to add factual, relevant -- unfortunately controversial -- information about Jones was removed by "FisherQueen" alleging lack of documentation. The added language has been thoroughly cited, and there are many more confirmatory citations easily found on Web Search Engines. Attempts to suppress this information are the kind of censorship I experienced in communist countries and is not appropriate to the United States of America. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dewen12 (talk • contribs) 19:09, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
- Welcome to Obamaland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.224.206.168 (talk) 23:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know where "Obamaland" is, but the detailed explanation of every sentence of the paragraph in question is at User talk:Dewen12. I'm afraid most of it is simply against Wikipedia's rules, so it won't be able to stay in this article. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:53, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
(copied from User talk:Dewen12, discussing this content)
By his own account and international reporting, Jones evolved as a "roudy [Black] nationalist" collaborating as an avowed Communist with radical Marxists and Maoists. [1]
- The article says that he was part of a socialist organization which read the work of Marx and Lenin in his youth. I added that to the section on his youth, with the source you cited. The word 'radical' is an emotionally weighted word, not neutral. 'Marxists and Maoists' doesn't seem to accurately paraphrase what that section of the article says.
Appointed as a so-called "green czar" among the officials President Obama has installed in his government avoiding advice and consent of the Senate [2],
- The article already discusses his White House position. "So-called" is a word which makes a value judgement, not neutral. 'Avoiding advice and consent of the Senate' is your own analysis, not verifiable fact. The source you cite is a blog, and so not usable.
Jones was reported in August 2009 when a Black activist organization he founded called "Color of Change" [3], began pressuring companies to stop advertising with the popular Glenn Beck cable TV show. [4]
- This is interesting, and might be a useful addition to the article. But your only cited source is WorldNetDaily, which is not a reliable source, both because it has a strong bias against the subject, and also because it publishes incorrect or inaccurate information too often for Wikipedia to be able to use it as verification of facts. I'd be interested in adding a paragraph about this if it has been discussed in a more reliable source.
This occurred after Beck reported Jone's involvement in the "Apollo Alliance," where Beck cited Jones as a key architect of so-called "stimulus" and "cap and trade" legislation [5] [6] -- both highly controversial programs reported by the Congressional Budget as likely sources of deficits and job loss. [7] [8]
- There are no independent sources here. You've linked to the congressional budget, but not to the coverage of this matter in independent sources. Again you use the non-neutral phrase "so-called."
Irrespective of partisan views on these issues, concerns now arise that suppression of this reporting (including removal of carefully cited information from Wikipedia due to alleged lack of documentation), has a chilling effect on freedom of the press and ultimately representative government.
- This entire sentence is your personal analysis, and does not contain any verifiable facts. It is, in its entirety, a violation of WP:NPOV.
- ^ http://www.truthout.org/article/eliza-strickland-the-new-face-environmentalism
- ^ http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2009/04/obama-file-72-obama-appoints-former.html
- ^ http://colorofchange.org/about.html
- ^ http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106805
- ^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80zzW6Osyhs
- ^ http://apolloalliance.org/what%E2%80%99s-new/apollo-board-member-van-jones-accepts-white-house-post/
- ^ http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/collections.cfm?collect=12
- ^ http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=2876
In addition to these problems, you've dropped the paragraph into the middle of the introduction in a way that interferes with the readability of the article- an article needs to be organized in a way that would make sense to a reader from beginning to end. I hope this helps you understand why this paragraph simply won't work in the way you have written it. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:35, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
- I am 100% confident that this paragraph is a violation of WP:NPOV, for the reasons I've discussed here, in the edit summaries, and at User talk:Dewen12. Rather than edit-war over it, which is against the rules, I've asked for a third opinion at Wikipedia:Third opinion. I hope that a few more voices will be helpful in weighing in on whether or not Wikipedia's policies would allow this paragraph to continue in the article. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:58, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
- I hear clearly FisherQueen's argument that the wikipedia article should remain NPOV and thus the POV additions would be best to be left out. rkmlai (talk) 18:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
- I am 100% confident that this paragraph is a violation of WP:NPOV, for the reasons I've discussed here, in the edit summaries, and at User talk:Dewen12. Rather than edit-war over it, which is against the rules, I've asked for a third opinion at Wikipedia:Third opinion. I hope that a few more voices will be helpful in weighing in on whether or not Wikipedia's policies would allow this paragraph to continue in the article. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:58, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
- (from WP:3O, though there are now three editors discussing here) The proposed addition also would require better sourcing, doubly so since this article treats a living person. A reader leaving this article should have basically the same impression and know most of the same information as if they had consumed the relevant articles in the New York Times, BBC, and similar news sources noted for their fact-checking and reliability. Points that are never treated by that caliber of source probably do not belong in the article. - 2/0 (cont.) 16:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Wow, what an awful paragraph. I tried to rewrite it, but found that the sourcing was so incredibly poor and the wording was so emotive and slanted as to warrant a complete do-over. There is useful content there (he was appointed a "green czar" and he got into a conflict with Glen Beck) but better sources are absolutely required. No blogs, no commentary (except when citing directly attributed NOTABLE opinions -- for example that of Glen Beck), and more mainstream sources are required. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
- The article already mentions the Special Advisor position (though not the informal "green czar" appellation). He didn't "get into a conflict with Glenn Beck" - that was Color of Change, an organisation he founded and left several years before the Beck saga. Rd232 talk 18:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of Mr. Joens time in prison? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jspugh (talk • contribs) 00:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
- Can you point to a specific reliable source that discusses that in enough detail to use? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 01:58, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
- Jones never went to prison. That's why it isn't in the article. Falcon8765 (talk) 22:16, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I went to the color of change website and found this petition on their home page. http://colorofchange.org/ I don't know if this would be considered a reliable source or not, but I can't imagine a more reliable source than the very group being accused. I hope this will allow at least this portion of the information aforementioned to be added to his wiki. Thank you.--Butch864 (talk) 17:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
former black nationalist and communist
I'm new to Wiki editing but I noticed there's some fishy stuff going on here. From 1992 to around 2004, Jones was a known activist, specifically a black nationalist. He was a member of the radical group S.T.O.R.M. in San Francisco. He was active and briefly arrested during the King protests in '92, and "became a communist" after his experience being held in city jail. I didn't even mention this because he was held for just 4 hours. This information is fact, available everywhere. It's a significant part of Jones professional development so it bears mentioning "above the fold" yet a user, Hidenothing, has deleted my edits and claimed he/she "Removed inaccurate information." Facts are facts, Hidenothing. What are you afraid of? 68.110.203.144 (talk) 13:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
- 68.110.203.144 has made 3 edits, 2 to the main and one here. Anarchangel (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
- so? is there a problem with that?RodentofDeath (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry I didn't sign my post. I forgot to log in.CheshireCatRI (talk) 19:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- so? is there a problem with that?RodentofDeath (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- 68.110.203.144 has made 3 edits, 2 to the main and one here. Anarchangel (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
- Leftwingers tend to be people who don't have jobs and have nothing better to do than sit around editing Wikipedia all day between bong hits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.216.15.11 (talk) 15:56, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
- There, you see, the facts. And if you want more proof? 150.216.15.11, unlike leftwingers, is too busy even to sign his post, or have made more than eight edits since March 2008.
- There, you see, the facts. And if you want more proof? 150.216.15.11, unlike leftwingers, is too busy even to sign his post, or have made more than eight edits since March 2008.
Ad hominem? I would say not, and am a good man and will not do nothing. Anarchangel (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
- Let's refrain from personal attacks and discuss this civilly. Random blogs aren't reliable sources, but here is a source where Van Jones discusses the whole brouhaha during the Rodney King protests: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/van-jones/15-years-ago-rodney-king-_b_48361.html This should be sourced instead per WP:SELFPUB.--The lorax (talk) 16:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
the east bay express is a reliable source. the huffington post is biased and is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.90.26 (talk) 16:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
- The Huffington Post link comes from an article that Van Jones himself wrote. WP:SELFPUB sources tend to be considered more reliable than alternative news weeklies.--The lorax (talk) 17:11, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
- Replacing a source because of a controversy over which one is preferred is one thing; removing the entire section because of it is quite another, lorax. Restored. Anarchangel (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
- WP:AGF, shouldn't we be conscious that this is a pretty contentious claim that is being singled out; we should include as much information to not make this seem taken out of context. I think we can put this information into the Early Activism section and remove Political Evolution all together. The Awards section is a bit trivial as well and should be weaved into prose somehow.--The lorax (talk) 03:51, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
- Replacing a source because of a controversy over which one is preferred is one thing; removing the entire section because of it is quite another, lorax. Restored. Anarchangel (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to see some documentation that Van Jones has denied his past communist professions, as stated in the current page. As it reads now, it seems way too syrupy, and glosses over relevant facts. Way too many external links are directed to his own web sites, hardly a source of unbiased facts, and I also agree that Huffington is not credible either on this or any topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.177.190.232 (talk) 04:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
- I too would like to see a cited reliable source to quote Mr. Jones that he refutes communist activities. I would also agree that Huffington post blogs or any blogs are NOT reliable sources per WP:RS and should be removed. 74.229.224.16 (talk) 21:23, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- The Huffington Post is a controversial source -- I don't think there is a strong consensus one way or the other as to the reliability of its news articles. It's blog posts on the other hand, are not appropriate sources unless one of the standard exceptions (such as Jones writing about himself) applies. I just cut reference to a blog cited in response to the Beck criticisms. There are two other cites to The Huffington Post in the article. One is a blog post by Jones, which is allowed per WP:SELFPUB. The other is a news article about a relatively non-controversial topic, which seems to be well documented (including interview quotes from Jones himself), so I think that is OK to keep. --RL0919 (talk) 23:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
SOMETHING FISHY GOING ON
I see all the damning information I read yesterday has been removed. == —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.82.28 (talk) 02:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
- One contribution. There is indeed something fishy going on, even if it is only a sudden spate of IPs. Anarchangel (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
STORM’S embrace with Marxism, inspiration from Mao Tse-tung
I'm stunned that neither this article nor the one on STORM mentions the organizations' goal of creating a Marxist-Leninist-Socialist "utopia". The STORM article has a link to one of [STORM's "self-assessment" and history|http://www.leftspot.com/blog/files/docs/STORMSummation.pdf], which has the following quote:
STORM’S Approach to Marxism
STORM was never formally a “Marxist-Leninist” organization, and we never had a systematic Marxist theoretical framework. But we did have a political commitment to the fundamental ideas of Marxism-Leninism. We upheld the Marxist critique of capitalist exploitation. We agreed with Lenin’s analysis of the state and the party. And we found inspiration and guidance in the insurgent revolutionary strategies developed by Third World revolutionaries like Mao Tse-tung and Amilcar Cabral.
--Tjdadis (talk) 19:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
- Well, this article is about Van Jones, not about STORM. If you think there should be an article about STORM, and have better sources than the blog you cite here, go for it, and have fun writing it. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
As to the "blog", the link was to a PDF of a STORM publication, the same link that this wikipedia references in its current STORM article. So I dont see any dispute that the PDF is genuine copy of STORM's own publication as a "self-assessment" and history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tjdadis (talk • contribs) 00:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
There's already a discussion of STORM in this article, and mention of Jones' being a communist. But that section begs the question of Jones' being inspired by Marx, Lenin and Mao. It begs that Jones' founded STORM and therefore was a leader in its espousal of policies that lead the the death and enslavement of up to a billion people continuously during a 70 year history. A philosophy that this country fought for nearly 50 years.
Yet, this man has government clearance to work in the White House and reports directly to the President. --Tjdadis (talk) 00:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I find it frightening that pages related to members of the Obama administration aren't editable. I've lost a lot of faith in Wikipedia today. Controversy is part of life and IS a fact. So, we're not allowing facts because they're controversial??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by GAP123 (talk • contribs) 01:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
- You can edit the articles if you aren't an IP address and have a username. Every article related to the Obama administration is plagued with vandalism. Falcon8765 (talk) 01:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
- I haven't heard any suggestions for what the article is missing.--The lorax (talk) 03:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
- Because you haven't been listening... OH SNAP! Ninja337 (talk) 14:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
- I haven't heard any suggestions for what the article is missing.--The lorax (talk) 03:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Why would anyone waste time editing knowing one of you will delete it. I agree with sinebot. I've lost a lot of faith in Wikipedia. Someone needs to start a new one that is open and free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.15.181 (talk) 23:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Inaccurate information on Van Jones
Here is the inaccurate sentence on Wikipedia about Van Jones
"Jones started his career as a staunch critic of capitalism; his outrage over the Rodney King verdict radicalized him to the point where he declared himself a communist (he has since renounced these views) and actively began protesting police brutality.[17]"
No where is Van Jones directly or indirectly quoted as saying he has renounced communism. The author states, "Van Jones renounced his rowdy black nationalism on the way toward becoming an influential leader of the new progressive politics." But that sentence is only her opinion (my 30 years in journalism and public relations knows the difference between an opinion and an indirect or direct quote).
And I'm not convinced that a reporter with the East Bay News is a credible "independent" source about this controversial person.
The parenthesis (he [Van Jones] has since renounced these [communist] views) needs to be removed from the Wikipedia site until direct evidence of that claim can be footnoted/sourced from an independent source or from Van Jones himself in a public statement.
Usmcpao (talk) 20:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)usmcpao
- Agree. 74.229.224.16 (talk) 21:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- Eva Paterson, Jones's former boss, backs up what is presently written:
“ | This charge is easily refuted - most obviously by the pro-business, market-based ideas Van has promoted for years, including in his best-selling book, The Green Collar Economy. Van's book is a veritable song of praise to capitalism, especially the socially responsible and eco-friendly kind.
Yes, for a while, Van and his student-aged friends ran around spouting 1960s rhetoric and romanticizing revolutionary icons. But that was years ago. Way back then, I counseled him to rethink his tactics and to work for change in wiser ways. In time, he jettisoned his youthful notions and moved on to seek more effective and attainable solutions. |
” |
::The lorax (talk) 21:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- This is a blog of personal opinion and not a reliable source per WP:RS. 74.229.224.16 (talk) 21:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- The Huffington Post, although biased, is a reasonably reliable source for this case. Falcon8765 (talk) 21:40, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- This is a blog of personal opinion and not a reliable source per WP:RS. 74.229.224.16 (talk) 21:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- The phrase "(he has since renounced these views)" does not need to be there, let the facts that appear later in the section speak for themselves -- he later wrote a book that some interpret as a renunciation however he never explicitly said "I am not a communist anymore". -- Dougie WII (talk) 21:35, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Will we ever hear the truth?
I wonder if Obama will ever stand in defense of this 'friend", "adviser" or whatever Jones is calling himself these days. But he sure isn't calling him self in anything protesting against being a communist! Rep. Dianne Watson must ALSO be one as well... let's keep the information that we KNOW on the front page in here and stop molding people into what you want instead of what is real. MitchinaMitchina (talk) 21:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- His writings and the policies he advocates in no way indicates that he is a Communist as of the present. Falcon8765 (talk) 21:29, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- Many of us held positions as college students that we don't hold as adults. I certainly did. If everyone who was a communist in college were still a communist, then the Communist Party would have stood a good chance of winning the last election. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:29, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- That's an interesting standard. Is it Wikipedia policy? If so, please apply your reasoning to Bob McDonnell where his Boston University thesis is cited critically. Either include the information brought up into this article, or apply your "it was a position he held a long time ago" standard to similar articles. If you refuse to do this, then we have a problem. No, sorry, you can't ignore the request, you're an administrator. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 22:06, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- The article currently mentions the (reliably sourced) fact that Jones became a communist in the early 1990s, and it also mentions Glenn Beck's criticism suggesting that he is still a communist. What the article does not contain is any forthright claim of fact saying that he is still a communist, because there is apparently no reliable source to verify such a statement. If you have a reliable source to verify that, please bring it forward and the article can be updated accordingly. Bear in mind that because this is a biography of a living person, controversial claims must be strongly sourced, to avoid exposing Wikipedia and its editors to libel claims. --RL0919 (talk) 22:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- no selective quoting from primary sources to support a POV are your own words, yet Bob McDonnell still references a primary source, that being a student thesis, and quotes it directly: '"At page 20 of the thesis, he wrote, "man’s basic nature is inclined towards evil, and when the exercise of liberty takes the shape of pornography, drug abuse, or homosexuality, the government must restrain, punish, and deter."' This quotation is not found in the Washington Post article being referenced, rather, it is taken from the primary source itself. There is a clear double standard being employed. If not, please explain how primary sourcing can be applied there, but not here. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 05:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- I have not edited on or even read the article about Bob McDonnell, so I can't speak to what might be going on there. You might have noticed that this is a volunteer operation, where editors and administrators work on items that they choose. There is no global responsibility for any individual editor or administrator to personally fix every problem that might exist on articles that they are not working on. If you think something inappropriate is in that article, I suggest you take it up at Talk:Bob McDonnell (if you haven't already), or simply fix the problem yourself. --RL0919 (talk) 13:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- no selective quoting from primary sources to support a POV are your own words, yet Bob McDonnell still references a primary source, that being a student thesis, and quotes it directly: '"At page 20 of the thesis, he wrote, "man’s basic nature is inclined towards evil, and when the exercise of liberty takes the shape of pornography, drug abuse, or homosexuality, the government must restrain, punish, and deter."' This quotation is not found in the Washington Post article being referenced, rather, it is taken from the primary source itself. There is a clear double standard being employed. If not, please explain how primary sourcing can be applied there, but not here. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 05:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- The article currently mentions the (reliably sourced) fact that Jones became a communist in the early 1990s, and it also mentions Glenn Beck's criticism suggesting that he is still a communist. What the article does not contain is any forthright claim of fact saying that he is still a communist, because there is apparently no reliable source to verify such a statement. If you have a reliable source to verify that, please bring it forward and the article can be updated accordingly. Bear in mind that because this is a biography of a living person, controversial claims must be strongly sourced, to avoid exposing Wikipedia and its editors to libel claims. --RL0919 (talk) 22:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- That's an interesting standard. Is it Wikipedia policy? If so, please apply your reasoning to Bob McDonnell where his Boston University thesis is cited critically. Either include the information brought up into this article, or apply your "it was a position he held a long time ago" standard to similar articles. If you refuse to do this, then we have a problem. No, sorry, you can't ignore the request, you're an administrator. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 22:06, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- Many of us held positions as college students that we don't hold as adults. I certainly did. If everyone who was a communist in college were still a communist, then the Communist Party would have stood a good chance of winning the last election. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:29, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Van Jones
This bio left out alot of important subject matter such as he has been arrested and spent 8 years in jail for the Rodney King arrest. Looks like someone is telling you what to say 75.87.93.103 (talk) 22:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- Because that is patently false; there would be a bunch more wharrgarbl over his appointment if that were the case. For clarification, he was arrested along with hundreds of others, however all charges were dropped.Falcon8765 (talk) 22:08, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
- See [1]; lots of rumors and such running around, that is most likely the truth. Falcon8765 (talk) 22:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
A few issues
Having looked over this article a couple of times now, and having fixed some "easy" issues, there are a few more significant items that I wanted to bring up here. In descending order of importance (as I see it):
- Plagiarism - There are some passages in the article that have been lifted word-for-word from sources, not as quotes but as straight text. This is not acceptable and the passages need to be rewritten.
In particular, the "Early life" section has verbatim passages from the Kolbert article, and the "Early activism" subsection is only slightly paraphrased from one of Jones's own blog posts.There may be other cases that I haven't found. Update: The two particular sections mentioned have been rewritten. Hopefully there are no others with this problem. - POV - Some of the attempts to insert criticism of Jones into the article have been ham-handed and inappropriate, but the complaint of bias in the article has some foundation.
For example, the high-profile criticism of Jones by Glenn Beck goes completely unmentioned, even though a refutation of it is cited as a source. That's pretty clearly a one-sided approach. The fact of Beck's criticisms should be mentioned, preferably cited from a neutral news source. There have been at least a couple of discussions of this in the LA Times "Show Tracker" blog that could be cited, and perhaps some other sources that aren't anti-Jones opinion pieces.Update: Beck's criticisms are now mentioned with appropriate sources. There may still be other POV issues. - Full name -
Per MOS:BIO, the lead ought to mention that "Van" is a nickname.The name of the article itself is fine, since he is best known as Van Jones, but a number of sources correctly mention that his given name is Anthony. Update: Given name added to lead.
I don't know that I will have time to fix all these myself, but they all need to be tackled, ideally before the semi-protection expires so that it doesn't have to be done while fighting vandals at the same time. --RL0919 (talk) 23:58, 31 August 2009 (UTC) Updated above. --RL0919 (talk) 03:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- I read this article and its so biased toward van jones its absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.199.242.155 (talk) 01:00, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- The profile of Van Jones is is an excellent example of historical revisionism. Obviously this was written as an attempt to rewrite history and influence agenda. Lets get this corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.189.211.105 (talk) 06:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Political Evolution Edit
I replaced the description of STORM with the description from STORM's own document. The original description described STORM as a collective which "dreamed of a multiracial socialist utopia". That is exceptionally vague. I replaced that description with STORM's description of themselves from their document, "Reclaiming Revolution, History, Summation, and Lessons from the work of Standing Togethor to Organize a Revolutionary Movement (STORM)".
There was already a ref link to the document. I reused the link, although there are problems with the link. This document is becoming difficult to access. I will wait to see if the current ref link will be repaired, if it is not then I have the document and can post it. Aseidave (talk) 08:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- A repost of the document by a Wikipedia editor would probably both be a copyright violation and fail to qualify as a reliable source (since it would be hard to confirm the document wasn't tampered with). Neither would allow the source to be used as a citation in an article. A better bet would be to use a tool like the Internet Archive or WebCite. At the moment, the url currently used for that document has two archive copies in the Internet Archive, so those can be used if something happens to the original. --RL0919 (talk) 14:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- The link to the .pdf file of the STORM document in this article is unreliable. I have found the same document in its entirety at Scribd.com. The link is here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/19223898/Reclaiming-Revolution-history-summation-lessons-from-the-work-of-STORM- I will update the ref tag to point to the scribd.com copy of the document. --AStanhope (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- I think that's begging for the link to be removed later as unreliable/copyvio. The use of Internet Archive and WebCite has the support of the Wikipedia community. As far as I know there is no such support for the use of Scribd. I'll put in a {{cite web}} template with the Internet Archive link included in the 'archiveurl' field. That will give readers access to both the original url (when it works) and the archive (when it doesn't). --RL0919 (talk) 14:38, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- The link to the .pdf file of the STORM document in this article is unreliable. I have found the same document in its entirety at Scribd.com. The link is here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/19223898/Reclaiming-Revolution-history-summation-lessons-from-the-work-of-STORM- I will update the ref tag to point to the scribd.com copy of the document. --AStanhope (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
East Bay Express's response to Glenn Beck
Shouldn't we include East Bay Express's response to Glenn Beck? He's citing their profile, so it would seem fair to include their response to how he's interpreting it?--The lorax (talk) 17:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Also, why is this page so focused on Glenn Beck? Yes he talks about all this stuff on his show, howevewr I do believe this was Van Jones Wikipedia page, not Glenn's. Lets put Glenn's actions and words on GLENN'S wikipedia page and stick to Jones on this one. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.26.213.230 (talk) 21:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- Beck is only mentioned in a few sentences, so I'm not sure what makes you believe the article is focused on him. Because Beck is a prominent and respected commentator, his criticisms of Jones have been widely circulated and have achieved attention from other news outlets. Therefore it is highly appropriate that they be mentioned here. That doesn't make the article about him. --RL0919 (talk) 21:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I do not think that should be included as that is not a response from the paper, as much as it is a personal opinion in their BLOG section and not the news section of their paper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.83.28.130 (talk) 21:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that this doesn't belong, for a few reasons: 1) It is a blogged response by a staff writer, and thus should not be presented as if it were a formal response by the paper; 2) It is a criticism of Beck's usage of sources rather than a commentary on Jones per se, and thus is more appropriately placed in the article on Beck (where it would probably not be considered noteworthy enough to include); and finally, 3) The very mention of Beck's source appears to be introduced solely for the purpose of poking a hole in his claims, creating a tit-for-tat presentation that gives undue weight to the response. --RL0919 (talk) 23:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree it does not belong either. For example, President Bush's article is not full of citations from Keith Olbermann's program is it? This article is not about Glenn Beck. Reliefappearance (talk) 19:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Van Jones in Quotes
VAN JONES: All we do is take out the dirty power system, the dirty power generation in a system and just replace it with some clean stuff, put a solar panel on top of this system. We don't deal with how we are consuming water, we don't deal with how we're treating our other sister and other brothers' species, we don't deal with toxins, we don't deal with the way we treat each other, if that's not a part of this movement, let me tell you what you'll have. This is all you'll have. You'll have solar powered bulldozers, solar powered buzz saws, and biofuel bombers and we'll be fighting wars over lithium for the batteries instead of oil for the engines and we'll still have a dead planet. This movement is deeper than a solar panel, deeper than a solar panel. Don't stop there. Don't stop there. No, we're going to change the whole system.
VAN JONES: And our Native American sisters and brothers who were pushed and bullied and mistreated and shoved into all the land we didn't want, where it was all hot and windy, well, guess what, renewable energy. Guess what, solar industry. Guess what, wind industry. They now own and control 80% of the renewable energy resources. No more broken treaties. No more broken treaties. Give them the wealth. Give them the wealth. Give them the dignity. Give them the respect that they deserve. No justice on stolen land. We owe them a debt.
VAN JONES: What about our immigrant sisters and brothers? What about our immigrant sisters and brothers? What about people who come here from all around the world, who we're willing to have out in the fields with poison being sprayed on them, poison being sprayed on them because we have the wrong agricultural system and then we're and we're willing to poison them and poison the Earth to put food on our table but we don't want to give them rights and we don't want to give them dignity and we don't want to give them respect?
VAN JONES: The white polluters and the white environmentals are essentially steering poison into the people of colored communities.
So basically we have a person that believes in the redistribution of wealth (hmn...wasn't this a controversial topic during the election season?) based on race, believes "we have the wrong agricultural system," and believes whites are deliberately poisoning (implied by actively "steering") minorities. This is controversial , and yet, it is not found anywhere in the article. Why is that? 68.84.6.98 (talk) 21:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- Quit pushing your point of view about. Falcon8765 (talk) 21:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- Pardon me? How is quoting someone pushing a POV? Are you saying these quotes aren't controversial or notable? If so, please explain and cut the false, ad hominem, bad faith, accusation. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 21:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- That's a quote, but I am not sure what you are proposing for the article. What is the fact about Jones that you want to add to the article, and what is the independent source that discusses that fact? Random quotes without context, selected to make a point or push a specific point of view, aren't that useful in an encyclopedia article . -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- Quite true. I think this article could be easily managed if editors simply remembered that 1) original research is not allowed, especially not in articles about living people; and 2) only factual statements (including statements about the opinions of notable people) belong in the article, with reliable sources to back them up. That means: no straight statements that he is a communist without a reliable source to show it, no selective quoting from primary sources to support a POV, and no giving undue weight to the opinions of non-notable people just because they "rebut" the opinions of others. Most of this talk page, and probably half the article's edits, would disappear if these rules had been consistently followed. --RL0919 (talk) 23:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- Bingo. This also implies that germane facts that comply with this should not be deleted. At this very moment, and after a quick read, I for one think this page is very close to complete and NPOV (including fairly neutral statement-of-fact vocabulary) unless new germane information presents itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JayWhitney (talk • contribs) 00:03, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- What is the fact about Jones that you want to add to the article, and what is the independent source that discusses that fact? Yes, I understand the process by which information is included into articles, and was not expecting any direct quotations to be inserted into this one, nor do I expect any editorializing (despite the fairly obvious nature of the quotations) - I'm merely preempting the deflection that will no doubt occur when these quotes are referenced in a credible, verifiable source. Expect it to happen. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 05:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- [2] "You've never seen a Columbine done by a black child. Never. They always say, 'We can't believe it happened here. We can't believe it's these suburban white kids.' It's only them. Now, a black kid might shoot another black kid. He's not going to shoot up the whole school." Verifiable, from a reputable source. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 04:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- Bingo. This also implies that germane facts that comply with this should not be deleted. At this very moment, and after a quick read, I for one think this page is very close to complete and NPOV (including fairly neutral statement-of-fact vocabulary) unless new germane information presents itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JayWhitney (talk • contribs) 00:03, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- Quite true. I think this article could be easily managed if editors simply remembered that 1) original research is not allowed, especially not in articles about living people; and 2) only factual statements (including statements about the opinions of notable people) belong in the article, with reliable sources to back them up. That means: no straight statements that he is a communist without a reliable source to show it, no selective quoting from primary sources to support a POV, and no giving undue weight to the opinions of non-notable people just because they "rebut" the opinions of others. Most of this talk page, and probably half the article's edits, would disappear if these rules had been consistently followed. --RL0919 (talk) 23:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- That's a quote, but I am not sure what you are proposing for the article. What is the fact about Jones that you want to add to the article, and what is the independent source that discusses that fact? Random quotes without context, selected to make a point or push a specific point of view, aren't that useful in an encyclopedia article . -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 23:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- Pardon me? How is quoting someone pushing a POV? Are you saying these quotes aren't controversial or notable? If so, please explain and cut the false, ad hominem, bad faith, accusation. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 21:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
To be fair the article should point out that Van Jones is a self admitted communist
Van Jones has admitted that he is a communist and is for radical changes in the US government —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.114.248.43 (talk) 23:43, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- His declaration that he became a communist in the early 1990s is included in the Early activism section, with citation to an article with a published quote from him on the matter. If there is some other "admission" in a reliable source that you believe should be included, please specify the source so it can be reviewed. Thanks. --RL0919 (talk) 23:48, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
"he declared himself a communist[10] and actively began protesting police brutality"
These two concepts have nothing to do with each other. The most police brutality happened under Stalin a pillar of modern communism. These two items are mentioned together as part of a deliberate advertising campaign to make it sound acceptable that Jones, an advisor to the president, said he was Communist. However any neutral information source that doesn't want to be guilty of bias would not have such nonsensical associations such as associating communism with anti-police brutality.myclob (talk) 01:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- The reference indicates that it wasn't Stalin that influenced Jones to begin protesting police brutality, but the Rodney King verdict. I didn't see anything about Stalin in the source. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 01:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- Reviewing the sources used for the paragraph, it is clear that they say Jones did both things. It's not clear that they ought to be joined in one sentence. Based on the Strickland article, it seems that he became a communist first, then started protesting police brutality slightly later, when he was with STORM. So they should probably be separated in the article's narrative. (Speaking of inappropriate joining, it would be helpful if editors raising concerns about specific passages in the article would not join them with inflammatory remarks.) --RL0919 (talk) 01:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- The section had plagiarism issues due to use of very close paraphrasing from a source, plus there was some seemingly irrelevant material talking about another person who Jones worked with at STORM. So I re-wrote the section to address all of the above. --RL0919 (talk) 02:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- Reviewing the sources used for the paragraph, it is clear that they say Jones did both things. It's not clear that they ought to be joined in one sentence. Based on the Strickland article, it seems that he became a communist first, then started protesting police brutality slightly later, when he was with STORM. So they should probably be separated in the article's narrative. (Speaking of inappropriate joining, it would be helpful if editors raising concerns about specific passages in the article would not join them with inflammatory remarks.) --RL0919 (talk) 01:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Here is a quote from an interview he did as the head of the Ella Baker Center
VAN JONES: "The white polluters and the white environmentals are essentially steering poison into the people of colored communities". ~March 2009
This is the most news worthy thing Van Jones has ever said, but do you think this article will ever show it? I give it a 0% chance... pointing this type of "un-helpful" information would not be "prudent" in this "political environment".myclob (talk) 01:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- Please, don't add any more quotes to this talk page; they are not helpful. If you think there is a fact missing from the article, just state the fact you think is missing, and cite your source. There's nothing we can do with quotations; an encyclopedia article doesn't need very many of those. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 01:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- Myclob, if you're pointing this out because you want to start a section about how Van Jones actively has spoken out against environmental racism, then by all means, go for it!--The lorax (talk) 02:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- Myclob - Go for it. You have my support. That quote is absolutely verifiable. Also, please see my comment below re: Jones actually being a Red Green rather than an "eco-capitalist". The article may need to be re-worded to indicate that while Jones claims to be a Blue Green, his rhetoric and actual philosophy indicate otherwise. ObserverNY (talk) 11:57, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Do we need to semi-protect the talk page?
Based on the spate of vandalism in the past hour, and the general level of non-constructive edits from IP users, I'm starting to wonder if semi-protection needs to be applied to this Talk page in addition to the article. --RL0919 (talk) 04:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- Normally I wouldn't support protection of a talk page, but that's really bad today. I'm going to put a very brief semiprotect on the talk page, just for a few hours. -11:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- I semiprotected, but I also created an unprotected talk page, because I really hate to discourage new users who might be helpful. I'll keep an eye on the unprotected talk page and sweep it of vandalism from time to time... constructive edits can be moved here or just linked to. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 11:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- Since the semi-protection for the talk page has expired, I assume the notice about it should be removed. There is only one brief discussion on the unprotected talk page, which ironically occurred after the protection expired. We could consolidate that into this talk page. Or should we wait, in case this evening brings in another round of drunk racists with too much time on their hands? --RL0919 (talk) 19:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- I semiprotected, but I also created an unprotected talk page, because I really hate to discourage new users who might be helpful. I'll keep an eye on the unprotected talk page and sweep it of vandalism from time to time... constructive edits can be moved here or just linked to. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 11:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Eco-Capitalism vs. Eco-Socialism/Blue Green vs. Red Green
This article describes Van Jones as an Eco-Capitalist. On the surface, it appears that the rhetoric produced by the groups founded by Jones subscribe to eco-capitalism in name only so that the American public will buy it, that philosophically, Jones is a Red Green. The video aired on Glenn Beck last night from March, 2009, clearly shows Jones wildly excited about "changing the system". http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=108441 I would be interested in other editors' take on this apparent discrepancy in the way the article is currently presented and Jones' actual philosophy. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 11:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- I listened to the entire speech (there's a YouTube link in the WND article), and I'm not sure what specifically is the discrepancy. Since WND isn't likely to be accepted as a reliable source for interpreting the views of left-wing activists, can you explain what it is in the speech that you think is inconsistent with something stated in the encyclopedia article? It's entirely possible that his views are misleadingly described in the encyclopedia article, but just listening to the speech and reading the WND article didn't lead me to any particular conclusion about that. --RL0919 (talk) 14:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- I will listen to the rest of Jones' rhetoric later, I got half way through to hear him compare "clean coal energy" to "unicorns pulling cars". I said, WAIT A MINUTE, didn't Obama campaign on "clean coal energy"? Oh yes, he did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GehK7Q_QxPc So who is lying? Is Jones' mocking his boss? ObserverNY (talk) 15:12, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Based on those comments, we should make sure that the Van Jones article doesn't erroneously describe him as a supporter of clean coal. Fortunately, at the moment there is no mention of clean coal in the article, so we're safe on that. As for any contrast between Jones's views and Obama's, that would appear to be original research, unless there is a reliable source drawing the comparison. --RL0919 (talk) 16:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- I will listen to the rest of Jones' rhetoric later, I got half way through to hear him compare "clean coal energy" to "unicorns pulling cars". I said, WAIT A MINUTE, didn't Obama campaign on "clean coal energy"? Oh yes, he did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GehK7Q_QxPc So who is lying? Is Jones' mocking his boss? ObserverNY (talk) 15:12, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- I haven't even watched the entire tape yet, but I'm surprised Beck's people didn't pick up on that. There are just so many lies and exposes the poor man can fit in in an hour! I'm pretty sure they've got someone watching the Wikipedia pages because Beck made an aside about it. Got that Beck people? CLEAN COAL ENERGY - the ultimate campaign lie. Van Jones thinks it's as plausible as unicorns. But you are right, at this point it is original research but extremely notable, if'n you ask me. ObserverNY (talk) 17:54, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Just a quick note - tonight Beck played the segment about Van Jones and Clean Coal Technology being as real as the tooth fairy and unicorns, but unfortunately he didn't tie it to BHO's campaign plug for Clean Coal Technology. I guess we'll just have to wait until a reputable media source ties the two together to add to the article. ObserverNY (talk) 23:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Paterson blog post material
I had previously cut a quote from Eva Paterson, which was recently restored by The lorax. The source is a blog post on The Huffington Post website. That site has been discussed a number of times on the reliable sources notice board. As far as I understand it, the consensus is that while its news articles might or might not be considered reliable sources, it's blog posts are no better than any other blog. And in general, blog posts don't qualify as reliable sources unless it is the subject posting about himself, or a post from an established expert on the subject. Paterson doesn't qualify for either exception, so I believe this material should be excluded per WP:RS. --RL0919 (talk) 14:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- Paterson originally posted this on her organization's website. Would that qualify as a more reliable source?--The lorax (talk) 14:46, 2 September 2009
(UTC)
- The lorax - Boy that source irks me. Beck said that Van Jones was "arrested and jailed" which is absolutely true, not that Jones served prison time. ObserverNY (talk) 18:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Imho, The Huffington Post does not qualify as a source due to WP:VERIFY and WP:NPOV. ObserverNY (talk) 17:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- In response to the question about whether the posting on her own organization's website qualifies as a reliable source, I would say, no it is not sufficiently reliable to use in a BLP. There is no evidence that the organization provides any editorial vetting for the blog posts, and in particular Paterson is the organization president, so it's pretty close to WP:SELFPUB. That would be OK if she was writing about herself, but in this instance the subject is someone else. And frankly this article has enough controversy around it that we should skew towards being more cautious in our use of sources. --RL0919 (talk) 19:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- FWIW, Glenn Beck also discussed this quote on his show. It seems reasonable to quote someone who was Jones's boss, who knew him personally back when he was younger.--The lorax (talk) 20:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- In response to the question about whether the posting on her own organization's website qualifies as a reliable source, I would say, no it is not sufficiently reliable to use in a BLP. There is no evidence that the organization provides any editorial vetting for the blog posts, and in particular Paterson is the organization president, so it's pretty close to WP:SELFPUB. That would be OK if she was writing about herself, but in this instance the subject is someone else. And frankly this article has enough controversy around it that we should skew towards being more cautious in our use of sources. --RL0919 (talk) 19:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- I wouldn't mind using it if the quote was characterized as being from a POV source. ObserverNY (talk) 20:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- If the quote has been repeated in a reliable news source, then we could potentially cite that rather than the blog posting. Nothing says that material initially from an "unreliable" (per WP guidelines) source can't be used if it is later repeated in a "reliable" source. Attributed, of course, to Paterson as the quoted party, just as we would for any other occasion where controversial material comes from a particular individual. --RL0919 (talk) 20:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- Would Glenn Beck's show then count as a reliable source in order to cite Paterson's quote?--The lorax (talk) 20:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- He's on major tv and radio networks, so yes his shows qualify as reliable sources (bearing in mind that much of what he says is citeable only as opinion, not fact). Did he actually quote her? The link
ObserverNYyou gave only had a mention of her, not any quotes. Of course it doesn't have to be Beck, as there are numerous reliable news sources out there, if one can be found with the relevant material. Ideally, a more neutral, "just the facts" type source would be preferable over those that surround every fact with heavy layers of opinion. --RL0919 (talk) 21:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- He's on major tv and radio networks, so yes his shows qualify as reliable sources (bearing in mind that much of what he says is citeable only as opinion, not fact). Did he actually quote her? The link
- Would Glenn Beck's show then count as a reliable source in order to cite Paterson's quote?--The lorax (talk) 20:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- If the quote has been repeated in a reliable news source, then we could potentially cite that rather than the blog posting. Nothing says that material initially from an "unreliable" (per WP guidelines) source can't be used if it is later repeated in a "reliable" source. Attributed, of course, to Paterson as the quoted party, just as we would for any other occasion where controversial material comes from a particular individual. --RL0919 (talk) 20:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
- I wouldn't mind using it if the quote was characterized as being from a POV source. ObserverNY (talk) 20:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Hi RL0919 - Um, I didn't provide any link in this section, merely agreed that I would be ok with using a quote from Glenn Beck. Regards, ObserverNY (talk) 16:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Sorry, it was The lorax that gave the link. His comment and yours were at the same indent level and I got confused. Now corrected above. Thanks. --RL0919 (talk) 16:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- Hi RL0919 - Um, I didn't provide any link in this section, merely agreed that I would be ok with using a quote from Glenn Beck. Regards, ObserverNY (talk) 16:31, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- No problem! Thanks! ObserverNY (talk) 17:05, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Color of Change
It seems to me that instead of having Color of Change listed as a sort of afterthought under "other" that it should precede Green for All for both chronological and political development reasons. Also, since it is mentioned in the overview, I think it deserves a little more detail. Opinions? ObserverNY (talk) 16:28, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- I agree. The "Social and environmental activism" section is a bit disjointed due to it being combined out of what was previously multiple sections. --RL0919 (talk) 16:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- Cool - well, I have some stuff to do, but take a look at what I did. Please feel free to add to, comment, fix(?) anything I may have messed up. ObserverNY (talk) 16:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Stupid question - Has anyone ever looked into who the OTHER co-founder(s) of Color of Change is/are?ObserverNY (talk) 17:14, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Answering my own stupid question - this source[3] says the co-founder is James Rucker. Is this guy noteworthy? A simple mention? If I had bothered to read all of the colorofchange page I would have seen this: Prior, James served as Director of Grassroots Mobilization for MoveOn.org Political Action and Moveon.org Civic Action and was instrumental in developing and executing on fundraising, technology, and campaign strategies.I think in the political scheme of things. MoveOn.org affiliations are worthy of mention. Let me know before I add that. ObserverNY (talk) 17:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Presumably it is appropriate to mention him. This isn't an article about Rucker or Color of Change, so information about any history he had outside of his association with Jones should be kept brief. It appears that he has his own article, so any extended details should go there. --RL0919 (talk) 17:30, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- Answering my own stupid question - this source[3] says the co-founder is James Rucker. Is this guy noteworthy? A simple mention? If I had bothered to read all of the colorofchange page I would have seen this: Prior, James served as Director of Grassroots Mobilization for MoveOn.org Political Action and Moveon.org Civic Action and was instrumental in developing and executing on fundraising, technology, and campaign strategies.I think in the political scheme of things. MoveOn.org affiliations are worthy of mention. Let me know before I add that. ObserverNY (talk) 17:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Excellent advice. Agreed. ObserverNY (talk) 18:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Controversies section
Why isn't there a controversies section for this guy? He's very outspoken and has been criticized routinely by very high-profile people. Here's just one of the controversies that should be mentioned: [4]
- The issue you link to is mentioned in the article. (Am I the only editor here who is tired of complaints about stuff supposedly being missing from the article, that come form people who apparently haven't bothered to read the article?) "Controversy" sections tend to segregate material in an artificial way that makes articles even more POV-oriented. If Jones was criticized for something he did or said, then that belongs in whatever section is most relevant to him doing or saying that thing. (Assuming, of course, that the criticism is documented in reliable sources, etc.) --RL0919 (talk) 17:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- A Controversies section in this case is necessary, especially considering the highly-controversial (and what some would most-definitely classify as racist) statements this man has made on tape which have come to light in the last week. I think we can all agree at this point that people aren't coming online looking for Jones' wiki page because they are interested in learning more about solar panels.CheshireCatRI (talk) 20:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
The most damaging stuff has just come out today. I used to scoff at the Right's notion that the environmental movement's real agenda has less to do with the environment and more to do with the far Left's war on capitalism. Jones lays it all out for the public to see. That he has a far more radical agenda than the one he espouses for mainstream public consumption (reparations for slavery, the dismantling of our economic system etc) is plain. Obama doesn't need this stuff right now. I predict the next entry will be: "Jones resigned his position with the Obama administration in Sept. of 2009..." Sean Smith —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.27.45.187 (talk) 17:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- If that happens, please allow me the honour of adding that fact. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- What new damaging stuff? Despite Glenn Beck's wall-to-wall coverage of him, a recent Fox News article actually wrote this about him: "Jones has mellowed considerably since the '90s. In some respects, he is about as mainstream as environmentalists come".--The lorax (talk) 18:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- If that happens, please allow me the honour of adding that fact. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- The lorax - and you didn't read that as tongue in cheek? Mellow as in ELF? LOL! ObserverNY (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- This is not a place for forum discussions. People come here to help change the article for the better, and this kind of polemic leads many people astray. Thank you, Xavexgoem (talk) 19:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- The lorax - and you didn't read that as tongue in cheek? Mellow as in ELF? LOL! ObserverNY (talk) 19:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Excuse me - to the lorax - were you offended by my response to the quote you selected from the FOX article? If so, my apologies. I was offering my interpretation of something to be potentially included in the article. My comment was not meant to be to the "detriment" of the article as Xavexgoem suggests. ObserverNY (talk) 20:01, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- I think this is a good idea... what does his status as a "9/11 Truther" have to do with the Ella Baker Center for Human Rights? -- Dougie WII (talk) 20:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- The "signature" line for him says, "Van Jones, executive director, Ella Baker Center for Human Rights". More generally, creating "Controversy" sections tends to have undesirable results: If there are a lot of critics editing the article, the "Controversy" section is inflated to make the subject look "really controversial". Or if there are a lot of supporters editing, the existence of a "Controversy" section can be used to whitewash the rest of the article by putting anything that seems negative there. Sometimes both. --RL0919 (talk) 20:21, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- I concur with RL0919. The signing took place under the Ella Baker umbrella and is in the appropriate place. However, if a reference can be found for this group being responsible for the creation of the term "9/11 Truther", I think that would be worth adding. ObserverNY (talk) 20:26, 3 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- What about his support of convicted cop-killer Mumia Abu-Jamal? Where will that fit in? -- Dougie WII (talk) 21:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
- Provide specifics from one or more reliable sources and we can figure it out. --RL0919 (talk) 21:33, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
```` i note that the article by elizabeth kolbert in the new yorker in january, 2009, is a reference in footnote 9. . . . what i do not understand is the failure to include the information that, with the $430,000 in 2004 and 2005 from a new york foundation to "green jobs, not jail", he failed to produce even one job and described the effort as a "complete and utter failure" and that all of the money was "wasted". This appears to be his only endeavor to create green jobs. ````longoverdue —Preceding unsigned comment added by Longoverdue (talk • contribs) 23:39, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Facts. vs. opinion
The Lorax - I see you removed my edit in the overview: Jones signed signed a statement for 911Truth.org in 2004 demanding an investigation into what the Bush Administration may have done that “deliberately allowed 9/11 to happen, perhaps as a pretext for war.”[1]. It is completely irrelevant what Jones says now. This is a documented fact, reported in a major newspaper. Your "reason" for removal is like saying Benjamin Franklin signed the U.S. Constitution, but years later, "he didn't really mean it". The 9/11 Truther item is referenced further down in the article and if you wish to include Jones' "denial" in that section, please do. I am restoring my edit. I will not fight those opposed to including Hussein in this article regarding the President's name, as the main Wiki article does not include it in the header. ObserverNY (talk) 12:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- P.S. - I changed it to read: In 2004, Jones signed a statement for 911Truth.org. This is irrefutable fact, sans any commentary, merely an historical reference which is elaborated on later. ObserverNY (talk) 13:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- WP:LEAD says we should "summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies." Is this particular incident as notable as any of the other things in his life? I would say it would be notable for inclusion if he truly believed what he signed (or participated in such events/wrote essays/made public statements supporting the truthers) but Jones says of his inclusion in this petition, "I do not agree with this statement and it certainly does not reflect my views now or ever." I think it's dubious we would deem this notable for the lead paragraph.--The lorax (talk) 13:31, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- The signing of the 911Truth.org statement is extremely notable, far more notable than his "asshole" statement, imho. Since it is expanded on later in the article, it is appropriate to mention it in the overview. The overview is supposed to provide a brief summary of items explored in greater detail later on in the article. This man holds a White House position. He signed the petition as The Executive Director of the Ella Baker Center. (#46) If he is willy nilly signing conspiracy theory petitions simply because ....why? Because he wanted to get buddy buddy with Jeanine Garafola? People need to know what this man has signed on to. By all means. Include his "denial" in the follow up.ObserverNY (talk) 13:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- I would be happy to change the word statement to petition. ObserverNY (talk) 13:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- I see the "denial" quote is already there. I changed statement to petition as Jones refers to it that way himself. ObserverNY (talk) 13:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Doug Wll - good cite. ObserverNY (talk) 14:04, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
To The Lorax - It might interest you to know that Democrat Bob Beckel announced on Fox and Friends this morning that he thinks Van Jones should "step down". Therefore, your attempt to cite criticism of this issue as only "conservative" and "only an indiscretion of his radicalist youth" is completely unwarranted and WP:POV. Stick to the facts please. ObserverNY (talk) 15:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- I'm trying to place it into context; most criticism has come from conservatives save for Bob Beckel.--The lorax (talk) 15:12, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- Well, you are giving undue weight to a simple fact in the overview. Please stop changing it. ObserverNY (talk) 15:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Since the 9/11 truther stuff came out, I haven't heard one mainstream Democratic analyst say that he should keep his job. They all said he'll be gone by Tuesday (probably much sooner). -- Dougie WII (talk) 15:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- Whether he'll ride out the storm or not is all speculation at this point. Placing the truther petition (which Jones has refuted) in the lead paragraph with no context whatsoever is undue weight; it would make more sense to mention the recent conservative criticism.--The lorax (talk) 15:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- Since the 9/11 truther stuff came out, I haven't heard one mainstream Democratic analyst say that he should keep his job. They all said he'll be gone by Tuesday (probably much sooner). -- Dougie WII (talk) 15:37, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if he "refutes" it from now until doomsday, his signature is on it as the Executive Director for the Ella Baker Center. It is expanded on further on in the article and is therefore "notable" as a fact. I'm sorry you don't like the "fact", the lorax", but that's what Wikipedia is SUPPOSED to be presenting. ObserverNY (talk) 15:50, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
I don't think it makes sense to put either item in the introduction. The criticism is heaped on him because of his position in the Obama administration. It should be mentioned there. If/When he "resigns" you can note in the introduction that he resigned over controversy. Currently he works for the White House. That is enough information for the introduction and any details should be in the appropriate section.
Reliefappearance (talk) 15:53, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I disagree. I will add that he signed the petition as the Executive Director of the Elle Baker Center, if you wish, however it is the event itself that is notable. The controversy that ensued as the result of this FACT being made public is already covered in the sub-section on the Ella Baker Center. If he resigns, then it will be notable in the Obama White House section. ObserverNY (talk) 15:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Now it has relevant context. He didn't just sign the petition as Van Jones, Joe Schmoe, he signed it as the ED on behalf of an organization. ObserverNY (talk) 16:04, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
To the Lorax - you have hit WP:3RR with your edits on the overview. Please cease and desist. I'm not amenable to running to admins, please find the maturity to leave the section alone. ObserverNY (talk) 21:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- ObserverNY, I don't want to edit war about this. I've tried to reach a compromise over your insertion of the truther tidbit; I'm not removing it, only adding context surrounding it. 1) This is not something he stands behind. 2) The original petition was thought by many signatories to be merely a support for victim's families calls for an investigation:
Paul Hawken also released a statement corroborating Jones take on it:
“ | In the fall of 2004, I was approached by 911Truth.org to support the grieving families of the 9/11 tragedy. Family members who had lost a loved one, and many American citizens, felt that the 9/11 Commission had not fully explored key questions involving that fateful day. My concern then and now was for the victims. I felt that a deeper inquiry into policies and security would be helpful to reach a fuller understanding of the cause of 9/11 and how to prevent future terrorist attacks. I do not recollect any of the questions that are posed on the website, never saw the subsequent press release of Oct 26, 2004, and never signed such a statement. I was interested in questions, not blame; inquiry, not jumping to conclusions. It is unfortunate that Van’s name has been used in this way as I know he would not knowingly endorse a statement that would place blame or create divisiveness. | ” |
So let's try to work out a compromise regarding the lead paragraph.--The lorax (talk) 22:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- Again, there is an entire sub-section on this issue. The overview is the place to summarize notable events in a person's life. It was his signing of the document and the ultimate exposure of this fact by the media, that has made it noteworthy. If you feel that the Ella Baker section needs more detail and it can be supported with verifiable sources, that is the place to insert it, not in the overview. It doesn't MATTER if Jones was "confused" or "misunderstood" the nature of the petition. The FACT is he signed it as the Executive Director of The Ella Baker Center. Regards, ObserverNY (talk) 22:51, 4 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Republicans are A-holes comment
Jones made this comment at a public lecture, where he also signed copies of his book.
Then, as a member of the Obama administration, he apologized for making the remarks, IMO making it notable.
Reliefappearance (talk) 15:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- Biographies aren't intended to be about current, ongoing & trivial controversies. If filled with comments made at lectures, many biographies would run for 100s of pages. This is meant to read as an encyclopedia entry, not a book. How and why is this newsworthy and why does it belong in Van Jones's biography? Do you feel this news is significant enough to be remembered and included in a biography of Van Jones 100 years from now? Are you sure this isn't because of your negative POV regarding Van Jones? - Sloopydrew (talk) 20:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
- Why do you assume I have a negative POV regarding Van Jones? You are not assuming good faith. Van Jones works at the White House and is overseeing the distribution of 80 billion taxpayer dollars approved by Congress. Is 80 billion dollars trivial to you? Reliefappearance (talk) 19:33, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
You area not to decide what is a "trivial controversy" a controversy is just that, a controversy. This article needs a controversy section because I there are several of them. Since you questioned the earlier commentators anti -Jones agenda, could it be that you have pro Jones agenda? What he has said about whites pumping poison into minority neighborhoods is hardly "trivial" and yes this stuff would be in a book about him, but that was after you said this is not a book. So, you seem a little confused. Also, Van Jones signing of the 9/11 conspiracy list is also controversial. So, there is a pattern of controversies here that are glaring in their omission. I predict that Van Jones won't have a job come tuesday, in that case it will one big controversy and these omissions will look silly on retrospection. JohnHistory (talk) 23:20, 4 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
CNN just called Van Jones comments "controversial". Literally, as I wrote this so that is just one more source for this being a real controversy and I don't think people saying "trivial" are correct. Van Jones also said that he was a "communist". Is that not controversial? CNN is saying these are bonafide "controversial statements." In addition, issuing two apologies in a 24 hour period proves that this is significant and a real controversy. Again, issuing two apologies in 24 hours is definitive proof. JohnHistory (talk) 23:28, 4 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
CNN running Van Jones comments as "controversial" and Van Jones has issued two apologies in last 24 hours. This is not trivial.
There needs to be a whole controversy section or at least inclusion. The man has said so many controversial things, and with the 2 apologies he has issued in the last 24 hours it can no longer be ignored. Again, CNN is now showing more about stuff such as him saying only white kids shoot up schools. The omissions are glaring such as himself saying he became a "communist". CNN says this is very controversial and getting into vetting issues. JohnHistory (talk) 23:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Every panelist I have seen on the two leading cable news shows have said he needs to resign. This is the real deal. Blindfolds are not going to make this article honest. I mean those are liberal panelists saying he can't survive these "controversies" and yet you wouldn't think they even existed if you just went by wikipedia JohnHistory (talk) 23:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Van Jones saying that "white polluters and environmentalists steer poison into minority neighborhoods."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em_B6fouTfk —Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnHistory (talk • contribs) 00:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- The reasons that Wikipedia does not use separate 'controversy' sections are discussed above, under the heading Controversies section. Are there any verifiable facts which are missing from the article? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:35, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- I propose that we re-name the political evolution section to political beliefs and public perception as it is set up in the Bill O'Reilly article: [5]. Section should be moved to after other. ObserverNY (talk) 01:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- That subsection is just biographical history about his shift towards focusing on environmentalism. It's not a broader section on "public perception," and I don't think it should be turned into one. I think it just needs to be retitled to reflect what its content is. Maybe "Shift to environmentalist" or something like that. --RL0919 (talk) 01:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- Ahh, but did he ever "shift"? I know this is not a forum, but to develop the idea, Jones' Marxist-Leninist STORM days helped him to discover that through the "green" movement, they could fool the "white polluters" into believing that they were just peace loving, reformed revolutionaries who now want to recycle and build windmills when in fact, Jones hadn't abandoned any of his radical ideology at all and merely wants to use the "green movement" as a vehicle of social justice and transformation of America. Or so it seems to me. Anyway, predictions are he won't make it through this Labor Day weekend. Odds anyone? ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 10:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- At the very least he shifted the focus of what he discusses in public, a fact which is discussed in various sources. Any in-article discussion about his motives would need to be based on reliable sources, and I don't care to offer talk page commentary on the subject. I will offer this prediction: within a few weeks of his leaving government, whether it is today or years from now, the article will stabilize, because most of the motivation for aggressive POV-pushing will dissipate. --RL0919 (talk) 14:35, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- When are you going to get real? He has left the administration BECAUSE of controversy, yet there is no controversy section. There are hundreds of article I could point out with a reaching controversy section, yet this article is still lacking. 68.84.6.98 (talk) 16:48, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- At the very least he shifted the focus of what he discusses in public, a fact which is discussed in various sources. Any in-article discussion about his motives would need to be based on reliable sources, and I don't care to offer talk page commentary on the subject. I will offer this prediction: within a few weeks of his leaving government, whether it is today or years from now, the article will stabilize, because most of the motivation for aggressive POV-pushing will dissipate. --RL0919 (talk) 14:35, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Conservative crticisms
I just added a significant batch of material on the conservative criticisms of Jones, including those made by Glenn Beck and also the recent call for his resignation/firing by a Republican congressman. In the past, material about Beck's criticisms have been deleted on the grounds that they are supposedly not notable enough for the article. So this time I have included multiple citations from third-party news sources, including CBS, the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post, all clear cases of reliable sources that establish the notability of these criticisms, several of which mention Beck by name as the leading critic. (Note that the Post is even specifically mentioned in WP:RS as an example of a top-tier reliable news source.) If someone still thinks that all mention of these criticisms still doesn't belong in the article, despite the growing coverage in mainstream news sources, I'd love to see an explanation given here. Thanks. --RL0919 (talk) 01:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't think the criticism is "conservative" anymore. That in some ways minimizing say, alleging that 9/11 was an inside job, or white environmentalists are steering pollution in minority neighborhoods, or saying Bush looked like a crackhead and all Republicans are "assholes".
The Liberal commentators I saw today all said he should resign, or not have been appointed in the first place. That was CNN, and Fox. Just because places like the NY Times have thus far avoided it doesn't make this criticism. By that standard criticism of Beck and Bush , etc should be labeled "liberal criticism".
again, the 9/11 stuff and his language aren't liberal or conservative, they are just controversial period. 71.245.236.40 (talk) 02:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- So far, the news coverage of the controversy has talked about conservatives criticizing Jones. Some liberals may have been critical, but the secondary coverage hasn't discussed that point. There's an issue of original research that must avoided, where editors bring in their own knowledge about a critic's general political beliefs to synthesize a point about "conservative" or "liberal" critics. I put in only what the secondary coverage explicitly said. If news articles start explicitly saying that the criticism has spread to non-conservatives, then that can be brought into the article. --RL0919 (talk) 02:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
If you want to do the Beck angle then that should include Jones' former group trying to cut off his sponsors, and then have that be it's own thing between them. 71.245.236.40 (talk) 02:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- It's a reasonable point to mention and it's in some of the secondary sources. I just didn't get to it in my writing effort. There's always room for improvement. :-) --RL0919 (talk) 02:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Little Green Footballs, of all blogs, is defending Jones.--The lorax (talk) 02:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- Defending Jones The lorax says, interesting so I checked the link and found this: "There’s no need to lie about my position" and this "I am not “supporting” or “defending” Van Jones, and I’ve made that extremely clear." oooops. Hobartimus (talk) 15:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
It's misleading to say Glenn Beck "called Van Jones a communist" along with other things, when Van Jones in fact called himself a communist, and Beck was quoting Van Jones. Also, Beck talks about the United State of America, and negative effects on it, not specifically on a "Republican form of Government" which is also a little bit misleading. JohnHistory (talk) 02:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
I also think the whole "conservative criticism" thing is misleading because it play into a general left leaning news black out on Van Jones.
For example, look at this.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/The-Van-Jones-non-feeding-non-frenzy-57271402.html 71.245.236.40 (talk) 06:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Political Evolution Section Misleading and without source. Please remove "late 1990s'" from the section.
"By the late 1990s, Jones began promoting eco-capitalism.[24] In 2005 the Ella Baker Center expanded its vision beyond the immediate concerns of policing, declaring that "If we really wanted to help our communities escape the cycle of incarceration, we had to start focusing on job, wealth and health creation."[17] In 2005, Jones and the Ella Baker Center produced the "Social Equity Track" for the United Nations' World Environment Day celebration, held that year in San Francisco.[25] It was the official beginning of what would eventually become Ella Baker Center's Green-Collar Jobs Campaign."
There is no evidence given that Van Jones had "politically evolved" to "eco-capitalism" by the late 1990's in the source. I think that is a way of trying to make it seem like he changed his views much longer ago then is verifiable. In fact, the next part says that he started focusing on said 'eco-capitalism" beginning in "2005" not the "the late 1990's." I think the "late 1990's" should be removed. 71.245.236.40 (talk) 02:33, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Okay, I changed it I thought I couldn't but I was just not logged in. JohnHistory (talk) 02:37, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Lock the page down all ready
Just lock it down. Sheesh. Trueslicky (talk) 07:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Environmental-racism/justice vs. eco-capitalism
I just read through the source for the opening sentence re: eco-capitalism. I disagree that this is what Jones is advocating and I don't believe Wikipedia should be giving him credit for anything remotely related to the word "capitalism". If you read the following passage, you will clearly see that all Jones sought to do was "repackage" the environmental justice movement:
- Today’s environmental justice movement was designed to protect our interests in a toxic, pollution-based economy. It was not designed to promote our interests in a mushrooming, $250 billion green economy. Nor was any other racial justice movement or network. It is wildly unrealistic to assume that the already over-stretched and under-funded EJ groups can somehow meet this colossal, historic challenge on their own. It is unfair to expect them to do so.
- So we stand now at the dawn of a new economy. But no part of the racial justice movement is charged with the task of ensuring that the new laws and new industries do right by low-income people and people of color.
- We must change this. If we do not get involved, we will end up with eco-apartheid–a society with ecological haves and have-nots.
I would like the opinion of others on this before I change the language in the Green for All section. Regards, ObserverNY (talk) 10:27, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- I think that section is an advertisement for what this guy says he wants to do, although all his attempts at these things have been complete failures. -- Dougie WII (talk) 10:44, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- Assuming it is done in a neutral fashion, I think it would be best to describe his views in a couple of sentences rather than try to compact them into a single word or short phrase, be it 'eco-capitalism' or any other. --RL0919 (talk) 14:29, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree, "promoting eco-capitalism" has got to go. Perhaps environmental civil rights, or something more social justice based, then capitalistic. I mean, we have that vid I linked where he clearly separates himself from the "White environmentalists who are steering poison into people of color neighborhoods." 71.245.236.40 (talk) 18:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
From WP:LEAD "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies."
- I fully agree. The media has been in a frenzy over this guy over the last week, and the lead downplays this dramatically. Few people would know of this man if it weren't for the intense controversies of the last week. Happyme22 (talk) 18:48, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- Happyme - Then perhaps you can help me by policing the WP:LEAD against vandalism by the lorax who keeps attempting to remove the sentence referring to Jones's signing of the 911Truth.org petition. Regards, ObserverNY (talk) 19:01, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
I think we should remove the sentence about 9/11 Truth from the second paragraph, and in the first paragraph talk about the current controversy regarding his job being related to his past statements which are further down the article. Reliefappearance (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- If we conclude that the gripes of this week amount to a notable controversy (see WP:RECENT) suitable for the intro, just dropping the petition in the intro doesn't cut it. A minor fact with no context is not intro material. Mention the controversy itself in the context of his current job, leave the details (the petition, "assholes", etc.) for the article. Gamaliel (talk) 03:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Op-Eds and blogs are only reliable for statements of opinion, not facts
Per WP:RS, "Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements of fact. A prime example of this are Op-ed columns that are published in mainstream newspapers. When discussing what is said in such sources, it is important to directly attribute the material to its author, and to do so in the main text of the Wikipedia article so readers know that we are discussing someone's opinion.
"There is, however, an important exception to sourcing statements of opinion: Never use self-published books, zines, websites, webforums, blogs and tweets as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the biographical material. 'Self-published blogs' in this context refers to personal and group blogs (see: WP:BLP#Sources and WP:BLP#Using the subject as a self-published source).
"Note that otherwise reliable news sources--for example, the website of a major news organization--that happens to publish in a 'blog' style format for some or all of its content may be considered to be equally reliable as if it were published in a more 'traditional' 20th-century format of a classic news story. However, the distinction between 'opinion pieces' and news should be considered carefully." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- Lorax, you restored an edit[6] that cites a blog as it's source. Blogs aren't usually considered reliable sources and should not be used for claims about third-parties. If you're not familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines on WP:V, WP:RS and WP:BLP, you should probably have a look at them. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Primary Sources to Integrate into the Article and Replace Eco-Capitalism
These Vid's are primary sources and very crucial to get an understanding of what he believes in especially in terms of the Environmental movement, and Revolution. These sources should be used explain his views through his own words and replace the dubious "eco-capitalism" label.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh4Z0V0zNQg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6gOmIalJVw JohnHistory (talk) 18:55, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- Most YouTube videos are not WP:RS. See WP:Reliable_source_examples#Are_IRC.2C_MySpace.2C_and_YouTube_reliable_sources.3F for more information. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Political Beliefs & Public Reception
I have created a new section following the White House Environmental Council section. This is the appropriate place to cite any recent issues that have been brought to light. Please check to make sure that specific quotes or items have not already been mentioned. Thank you. ObserverNY (talk) 18:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- To the Lorax - I see you are back to your old tricks of yesterday. I asked you nicely to try and exhibit some reason and maturity. Please don't make me babysit you. The information you added about Jones' college years was good. Trying to remove the 9/11 Truth signatory fact in the overview for the 4th time .... BAD. ObserverNY (talk) 18:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- If it's going to be in the intro, we should probably include information explaining that he says he didn't read it and doesn't support it. Remember that WP:BLP applies. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Then you would have to add the spokesperson for the 9/11 Truthers saying they contacted everyone to make sure that they did support it. Also, it should be put that he "alleges" that he didn't sign it or support it because all evidence points to the contrary and it is very, extremely convenient to deny it now. Perhaps, adding that he denies reading or supporting it AFTER a whole controversy about it was generated would be the best way because he only rejected it AFTER the controversy not before hand. JohnHistory (talk) 19:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- Good call - those quotes were already in the 9/11 Truth sub-section under Ella Baker so I moved the entire sub-section to Political Beliefs and Public reception.ObserverNY (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Hold up, assume good faith, ObserverNY; leaving the part about him signing the 9/11 truth statement alone with no context is unfair and POV; also, other signatories have said that they were misled by the petition, JohnHistory.--The lorax (talk) 19:22, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- The Lorax - noooooo, your repeated attempts to add superfluous information which is covered in detail (see above) in the overview is WP:POV. And do tell, who else was "misled"? Howard Zinn - international socialist? Jeanine Garafola? Give it up Lorax. I really don't want to have to report you. I expect you to "get it". Put appropriate information in the appropriate location, it's simple. ObserverNY (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- How is putting in that he subsequently has disavowed these statements superfluous? If he stood behind these statements, that would be one thing to include such a statement, but to leave it vague in light of his disavowal and others coming forward to complain they were misled too smacks of POV.--The lorax (talk) 19:37, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- The Lorax - noooooo, your repeated attempts to add superfluous information which is covered in detail (see above) in the overview is WP:POV. And do tell, who else was "misled"? Howard Zinn - international socialist? Jeanine Garafola? Give it up Lorax. I really don't want to have to report you. I expect you to "get it". Put appropriate information in the appropriate location, it's simple. ObserverNY (talk) 19:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Jones' rebuttal IS IN THE ARTICLE!!!! It does NOT belong in the WP:LEAD. Jones SIGNED the petition. That is a FACT. It is not WP:POV. If I were to write, "Jones showed his true colors as a traitor and ludicrous (his favorite word) buffoon by signing the 9/11 Truth petition in 2004".... THAT would be POV. You cannot make a simply stated FACT POV. ObserverNY (talk) 19:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
You have the disavowal of him and the fact that he doesn't deny signing it. That's enough. Otherwise this is a slippery slope and this is not an article about the two people you mentioned, nor what they allege they were misled about. This is not about them or that but Van Jones. JohnHistory (talk) 19:49, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
I bet 8 years later it might in some peoples interests to say they were "misled" what difference does that make? And the people you cited are known for extreme views. Also, what is worse - believing the Government may have played a role in allowing 9/11 or being the Green Tsar for Obama and not even carefully reading something you sign? Either way, it is very bad for him JohnHistory (talk) 19:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- JohnHistory: I'm not sure the statement by the 9/11 Truth.org spokesperson is even relevent given Jones isn't disputing that he signed the petition. He's saying that he didn't actually read it or didn't read it carefully enough. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- To the Lorax - I am also removing your Howard Zinn, Rabbi Lerner sentence. Please read the following about an essay written by Lerner 3 years after her signed the 9/11 Truth petition [7] ObserverNY (talk) 20:04, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- I agree it does not belong. Regardless of who was mislead or who wasn't or what happened with the petition. This article is about Van Jones, not about the petition itself. However, the fact that he signed it, the fact that he made a statement DOES belong here. Reliefappearance (talk) 20:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Also, the real source, Politico, points out and I have read a couple things that Zinn "flirted" with this 9/11 conspiracy stuff quite a bit in the past. Check out my links below. We should add that he was on the "organizing committee" for a march predicated with much conspiracy implication. JohnHistory (talk) 20:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- I'm 50/50 on this. Why would his name be on this list if he wasn't involved? Also, it is a weak source. Reliefappearance (talk) 12:30, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Simple
In the Early Life section, the final sentence reads that he earned his J.D. Could we change that to Juris Doctor? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jzeise (talk • contribs) 19:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Why? Are you trying to make people confuse him with a M.D.? Should we change Phd's too? JohnHistory (talk) 19:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
J.D. is fine just like PhD is fine, and B.A. is fine and so on. This is how people refer to their degrees, but if you really really want to I guess you could. JohnHistory (talk) 19:33, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Easy now. All the examples you use are much more commonly used than J.D. Every doctor I've ever met has a nametag that reads M.D. I have yet to meet a lawyer who does the same.Jzeise (talk) 19:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Exactly. M.D. is M.D. If it is linked people can just click if they are curious. I don't see why you are so interested in having "doctor" spelled out? Either way. JohnHistory (talk) 19:43, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Because people do not recognize what J.D. means nearly as often or easily as M.D.Jzeise (talk) 19:49, 5 September 2009 (UTC) Also, because I'm a giant liberal green communist and I'd call him a Saint if I couldJzeise (talk) 19:49, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Not reallyJzeise (talk) 19:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- Jones' reputation may well put Yale Law School out of business. - J.D. is fine. Ohhhhh, I know why they want it changed - people may confuse it with Juvenile Delinquent .......LOL! sorry, couldn't help myself. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 19:56, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- I added wikilinks for both "B.A." and "J.D." This is actually recommended practice to help clarify the meaning of degrees for those less familiar with the abbreviations. --RL0919 (talk) 22:25, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
30 billion or 80 billion???
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/13/stimulus/index.html
"and $30 billion on energy-related projects that Obama says will create "green jobs.""
"although the administration has allocated as much as $80 billion through the stimulus package to create more than 6 million green jobs," —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reliefappearance (talk • contribs) 19:37, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
http://www.ajc.com/services/content/printedition/2009/02/10/stimulus0210.html
"Green energy programs ..House: 39.4 ..Senate: 74"
Reliefappearance (talk) 19:40, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- Is there a specific edit to the article that you are proposing here? Also, as a general note since I've seen this happen several times on this page: It is typical to put new sections at the end of the talk page rather than at the top. Thanks. --RL0919 (talk) 23:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- Ya I figured out to just push New Section. I thought we were doing new ones at the top. Sorry about that. Reliefappearance (talk) 18:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Another 9/11 Connection Uncovered.
Zinn and Rabbi only said that signed onto what the politico article calls "Truther Lite" and they only said this when Politico reporter called them yesterday so if they are added, it should made clear that this was after the Jones controversy started and that they still were wanting an investigation, etc. I think that is why it should be taken out because it is confusing and not related.
But, this is the main thing that must be added to help confirm this. Check out who is on the organizing committee! JohnHistory (talk) 20:04, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
http://www.rense.com/general18/march.htm
(Earlier Politico article should be the real source for the rabbi and Zinn since the one currently there is not a credible source. I think that should go though.)
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0909/Trutherismlite_and_a_second_Jones_tie.html?showall
Can someone cite this in the article? He was on the organizing committee in San Fran to demand inquiry into 9/11. It could probably go under (as I put it in already) the 9/11 section and also can be in the section about what he was doing in the time range of 2002 since he helped organize this at the time. JohnHistory (talk) 20:26, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
They are not a reliable source for their own organization? That seems silly to me. Also, the source I was planning on using is the Politico article that finds them reliable for their own organizing committee's. Use Politico then. JohnHistory (talk) 20:28, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- The Rense.com article seems to publishing a press release by another organization called War Times. The problem with the Politico link is that it's a blog. We shouldn't be using blogs for controverial information on WP:BLP. In fact, according to WP:BLP, we're supposed to remove any poorly sourced information immediately and without discussion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:44, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Even though it's Ben Smith a journalist and a journalistic piece? Anyway, there are many stories on it so if that is not acceptable I can find another one that is. But this is not a typical "blog" piece at all. It's hard to believe that Van Jones name, along with other STORM people, was falsely added to a 9/11 Rally where he lived at the time, and yet also signed the 9/11 Truth Petition about two years later. JohnHistory (talk) 21:01, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- Yes, blogs are only acceptable as WP:RS is it's subject to the full editorial control of a newspaper. Even then, I don't think we're supposed to use it for controversial biographical information. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Doesn't have to be a newspaper; it could be any reputable news organization (a tv network, for example), including one that is online only. What counts is editorial control and reputation for reliability. --RL0919 (talk) 01:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- You're right. Sorry, my wording was a bit sloppy. Thanks for the correction. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Ben Smith is a professional journalist posting a blog on a reliable journalism site. AFAIK he doesn't post opinion pieces in his blog but merely posts stories in a more informal conversational style. I really don't see the difference between what he does and an article on the front page except for the aforementioned style difference and the word blog above it. So I'm re-adding my Politico source, and if that doesn't satisfy you might I suggest instead of simply removing every source with the word "blog" in it check to see if it is in other sources. -- Gudeldar (talk) 02:03, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- You're right. Sorry, my wording was a bit sloppy. Thanks for the correction. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Please note that per WP:V, the burden of proof is on the editor who restores the material. What verifiable evidence do you have that this blog is subject to the full editorial control of the publication? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- That's not a reasonable standard. We have no way of knowing the inner workings of a publication. Smith is a professional journalist working for a mainstream professional publication, and that satisfies the RS standard. Gamaliel (talk) 03:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Please note that per WP:V, the burden of proof is on the editor who restores the material. What verifiable evidence do you have that this blog is subject to the full editorial control of the publication? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Well, you're free to be bold and change Wikipedia's policies and guidelines on WP:V and WP:RS. Let me know how it goes. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:25, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- That's hardly what I'm suggesting and you know it. Objecting to your personal interpretation of RS hardly qualifies as rewriting the pillars of WP. As I've already responded to you on this subject in a section below, I suggest we continue it there. Gamaliel (talk) 21:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Well, you're free to be bold and change Wikipedia's policies and guidelines on WP:V and WP:RS. Let me know how it goes. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:25, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
With so many people citing the Press Release, notably Politico's Ben Smith, and the fact that it simply a list of it's organizers, it's definitely "reliable." Nobody is saying it's reliable for information on 9/11 All I'm saying is that it's reliable for it's list of organizers and I am clearly not alone in believing that. Who else could be better for listing the committee's organizers then the organization itself???JohnHistory (talk) 21:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Here it is again. Search "Van Jones". This makes his other comment seem totally ludicrous. He was in on the conspiracy since 2002, and then signed the petition in 2004. JohnHistory (talk)JohnHistory
http://www.rense.com/general18/march.htm
- IMO it's shaky, let the media do the investigative work and let them report on it, then we can add it to the article. 67.248.232.224 (talk) 22:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, I just did a little checking on the rense.com source. Glenn Beck just Twittered about it. It is also reported in the Beltway Blog. I think we're just going to have to sit tight till Beck or another mainstream source exposes this and reports it. As of right now, much as I hate to say it, it appears to constitute VERY GOOD original research. Check out some of the other names on that list. Good grief. ObserverNY (talk) 22:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Reliable sources we can use for 9/11 Truth.org petition section
Here are some WP:RS we can use for 9/11 Truth.org petition section: [8], [9], [10], [11], [12] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
It has ended. The Squicks (talk) 04:40, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Editors trying to revert and possibility of new campaign to make Van Jones image less tarnished.
The discussion here had already told me that Blogs were unacceptable, but then blog i had mentioned was reinstated tonight.
Also, the Zinn and rabbi, who were contacted only yesterday and who have made many contradictory statements, was put back in the article despite the source being a blog, and their mentioning having been labeled as irrelevant and outside the scope of the Van Jones article. Let's watch this in the future, rogue editors may try to keep obfuscating and or reverting. thanks. JohnHistory (talk) 07:16, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- I have no interest in untarnishing (is that a word?) the image of a guy I hadn't heard of last week. I put in information from Politico, a source which meets the requirements of RS completely. Hinting at sinister conspiracies isn't a good way to encourage collaborative editing and not assuming good faith of your fellow editors. Gamaliel (talk) 07:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
It was a blog. you didn't read the discussion. If that is allowed then in the same "blog" it states the contradictory statements of Zinn, and also that Van Jones participated in a 9/11 San Francisco march to demand inquiry into 9/11. So, it very misleading that all of that would be let out in your edit, and also it is a BLOG, which if you had read the discussion, is not allowed. JohnHistory (talk) 07:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Said Politico Blog also references Van Jones as part of an organizing committee in 2002 for 9/11 truth commission. I think you are barking up the wrong tree. JohnHistory (talk) 07:24, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- I read the discussion and added my comments to it. All "blogs" are not treated alike just like a book I write and photocopy and give to 12 friends is not treated the same as a Pulitzer-winning history
book. If the second source you mention meets RS, it can go in. Gamaliel (talk) 07:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
So, then by your logic, Van Jones participation ,as cited in the blog, for a 2002 9/11 rally must be included? If you don't also include that, and the contradictions with Zinn, you are showing a lack of integrity in this process. Here is the bottom line, that Blog had already been considered not acceptable, you are in no place at almost 4 am EST to overrule that and if you do then you need to include the afore mentioned "critical" parts of that blog, which you won't because you are demonstrating an agenda. Wait for others to rule on this please. JohnHistory (talk) 07:32, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Stop vandalizing the article! JohnHistory (talk) 07:35, 6 September 2009 (UTC)Johnhistory
Additionally, the inclusion of said material had, beside it being a blog, been deemed not acceptable to the content of this page. You are in fact violating this article in 3 areas. A. not honestly using the source (2002 9/11 rally info and Zinn's contradictions), B. it being deemed a blog, C. the material being deemed not appropriate for Van Jones controversy specifically.
Please, stop and wait till late. Otherwise, you are showing clear and present Vandalism. thank you. JohnHistory (talk) 07:40, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Gamaliel is vandalizing this article repeatedly! JohnHistory (talk) 07:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- As I stated on your talk page, please do not label good faith edits as vandalism. Also, be aware that you're in danger of violating WP:3RR. APK that's not my name 08:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
As I said on your talk page this is not "good faith" this is clear vandalism as I point out in 3 separate ways above. JohnHistory (talk) 08:09, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- (copied from my talk page) If you think labeling his edits as vandalism is a good idea, I suggest you read this. You've already violated 3RR, so it would be in your best interest to take a break from the article. APK that's not my name 08:14, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Cool it, I'm just following all the precedents I labeled that you have not addressed. What I have done is perfectly acceptable the fact that you coming at me and not the person ignoring it all is what is questionable. Why don't you cool your jets and deal with the issue I outlined so clearly.
Instead of getting into a wiki war why don't you tell me about how all of the mentioned A. B. C. points are wrong and we can stick to the issues and not squabble pointlessly, unless, of course, that is your point. thanks. JohnHistory (talk) 09:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- That was unnecessary. My comments have been very civil, but you're interpreting my advice (how to avoid a block) as something negative. I don't even know what it is you want me to address because I haven't been following the edit war or talk page discussion. What caught my attention was your edit summary and removal of The Politico as a source. Ben Smith's blog is a reliable source; if someone has told you different, then he or she is mistaken (read #5). His blog is currently used 113 times in various articles, including ones that are very closely watched. (ex: John McCain, Barack Obama presidential primary campaign, 2008, A More Perfect Union (speech), Jeremiah Wright controversy, Bill Ayers presidential election controversy, etc.) On a related note, someone is removing Jake Tapper's blog (ABC News) as a source. His blog (currently used 138 times in articles such as Presidency of Barack Obama, Sarah Palin, Joe Biden, Inauguration of Barack Obama, Barack Obama "Hope" poster, etc.) is about as reliable as it gets. He's the Senior White House Correspondent. In case you can't tell, what I'm trying to say is certain blogs can be used as sources. APK that's not my name 13:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I was merely suggesting that you do "follow" the discussion where (I was the one who tried to originally use said blog and don't mind using it though the Rabbi and Zinn things have been deemed not relevant for Jones) because the discussion thus far had deemed it not appropriate and further more not relevant, and it's usage beyond those points was leaving out crucial info such as Jones involvement in the 2002 San Fran 9/11 Rally. I was mere stating that this should wait till there can a consensus because a general one had already been concluded prior to such an early time in the morning. That was all I saying and doing. JohnHistory (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- JohnHistory, you have been around since 2007, so you should know that it is quite uncivil to accuse others of vandalism and to violate the 3RR on such spurious grounds. I've reported the 3RR, but regardless I urge you to discuss instead of accuse. Gamaliel (talk) 20:19, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Gamaliel, I objected to you bucking the consensus (As it has been upheld) and reinstating stuff deemed irrelevant, and not usable, and also not representing the piece accurately. That was all. I have already talked to the Admin. JohnHistory (talk) 23:32, 6 September 2009 (UTC)Johnhistory.
- Then I urge you to discuss those issues instead of insinuating that there is some kind of pro-Jones campaign among editors, breaking the 3RR, and calling people who disagree with you vandals. That is prohibited behavior and it only distracts from the issues you are trying to address. Gamaliel (talk) 00:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Redundancy/discrepancies in "Political beliefs and public reception" section
Since there seems to be a lot of changes going on in the "Political beliefs and public reception" section at the moment I'll just point these items out for someone else to resolve.
- The following Mike Pence quote exists in both the 4th and the 7th paragraphs of this section.
"His extremist views and coarse rhetoric have no place in this administration or the public debate."
- The following Mike Pence quote exists in both the 4th and the 7th paragraphs of this section.
- Additionally the 4th paragraph makes reference to "Senator Kit Bond" and the 7th paragraph makes reference to "Senator Christopher S. Bond".
- Additionally references to representatives and senators are appearing both with and without (party-state) affiliation tags in this section.
Guest458 (talk) 08:24, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Make the changes then! :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_bold_in_editing_articles
Reliefappearance (talk) 11:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Disgrace
This article is a disgrace and blatantly displays absolutely everything that can go wrong with the Wikipedia community.
At least the subject is no longer an important one and after the recent events fade into the past, hopefully a more balanced article can form. -- Dougie WII (talk) 08:49, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Do care to elaborate on the "disgrace?"
I think resigning amid a controversy from a Czar position in the whitehouse is beyond noteworthy. As far Van Jones being disgraced that is something I will leave up to historians, but I think many would say you are right on that pointJohnHistory (talk) 10:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
I agree that the article is a complete mess and now that it is a Drudge headline people will be coming here to read it and to be honest I am embarrassed by the state of it. Now that it's over, I'm sure none of the recent editors will be around to improve it. Reliefappearance (talk) 11:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Let them move on to the next controversy. This article will benefit greatly from having fewer efforts at POV-pushing based on whatever is the latest-breaking blog, which will allow more reflective editing based on quality sources and encyclopedic aims. --RL0919 (talk) 14:40, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
None of you are assuming "Good Fatih." I"ll be here. JohnHistory (talk) 20:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Furthermore, when I came here it was completely void of the controversy that would later that night cause Van Jones to resign. That was the real disgrace. Not even one mention of it here at this time yesterday! JohnHistory (talk) 20:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Resignation reference
Rather than the one sentence article from the AP, this goes into more depth. Franke-Ruta, Garance (2009-09-06). "White House Adviser Van Jones Resigns Amid Controversy Over Past Activism". Washington Post. {{cite web}}
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ignored (|author=
suggested) (help) -- 209.6.238.201 (talk) 11:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Go right ahead!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_bold_in_editing_articles
Reliefappearance (talk) 11:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- apologies to the Lorax - didn't see addition of 911.truth signing at end of overview. ObserverNY (talk) 12:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Fine, but the Lead is a mess. Fix it Lorax. Reliefappearance (talk) 12:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- I'm also ok with the Lorax's move of the Resignation section I just put together up into the WH Council section. What would you like to see in the WP:LEAD, Reliefappearance? Rather than barking orders, helpful suggestions would be welcomed. ObserverNY (talk) 12:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
I've removed the first reference - the washingtontimes.com one - on the grounds that it didn't specifically state that Jones resigned because he signed the petition. All it says is that he did sign it - and to combine that with the second reference is a violation of WP:SYN. To that end, it's somewhat redundant with the WaPo article, which does sort of draw a connection there. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 13:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Welcome HelloAnnyong! Wikipedia instructs us to be welcoming, right? Other editors on the Van Jones article should be aware of the fact that Helloannyong is a 3RR editor who accused me of having the intention of turning IB articles to "garbage" and is taking part in a lynch mob against me [13] to have me banned from Wikipedia. You have fun HA! Cheers! ObserverNY (talk) 14:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Um, okay. I don't really know what a "3RR editor" is, but I'll admit that I've interacted with Observer before. However, the reason that I came to this page was that I saw Jones in the news this morning and read the article, and saw an inconsistency between the refs and the text. No more, no less. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Welcome HelloAnnyong! Wikipedia instructs us to be welcoming, right? Other editors on the Van Jones article should be aware of the fact that Helloannyong is a 3RR editor who accused me of having the intention of turning IB articles to "garbage" and is taking part in a lynch mob against me [13] to have me banned from Wikipedia. You have fun HA! Cheers! ObserverNY (talk) 14:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
LEAD
Lorax, the lead is a mess, why make it worse? I'm asking you to please fix it. Remember, it's in the news. the page is hot, make it right. Reliefappearance (talk) 12:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Reliefappearance - I didn't see the addition of the last line in the overview. I am okay with the way it reads now and reversed my own undo of The Lorax's edit. ObserverNY (talk) 12:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Reliefappearance, I took a quick glance through the lead and for the most part it seems to cover all the issues in the article, what do you suggest should be included?--The lorax (talk) 13:04, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- I added an eerily prescient comment from Gavin Newsom in the lead.--The lorax (talk) 13:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Reliefappearance, I took a quick glance through the lead and for the most part it seems to cover all the issues in the article, what do you suggest should be included?--The lorax (talk) 13:04, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- I'm ok with that quote and cite. See, we CAN work together Lorax. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 14:44, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- The lead was a mess for a short time. Sorry I started yelling about it I should have waited for the work to be done.Reliefappearance (talk) 17:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Hobartimus made an interesting change to the lead that I liked, but I undid it because of the way you guys have the lead organized. I still think it needs to be changed. It is sufficient to simply say he worked at the White House and what his position was and that he resigned due to controversy. It should also be in the first paragraph. Any description of his duties at the White House should go in the appropriate section, not the lead. From now on I will avoid making direct changes to the lead because I feel I'm just getting in the way.Reliefappearance (talk) 18:16, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Certain blogs are reliable sources.
(similar to what I've already stated on this page - in response to this edit)
Ben Smith's blog (via The Politico} is a reliable source; if someone disagrees, then he or she is mistaken (read #5). His blog is currently used 113 times in various articles, including ones that are very closely watched. (ex: John McCain, Barack Obama presidential primary campaign, 2008, A More Perfect Union (speech), Jeremiah Wright controversy, Bill Ayers presidential election controversy, etc.) Jake Tapper's blog (via ABC News) is currently used 138 times in articles such as Presidency of Barack Obama, Sarah Palin, Joe Biden, Inauguration of Barack Obama, Barack Obama "Hope" poster, etc. His blog is about as reliable as it gets. He's the Chief White House Correspondent, so I doubt ABC News would consider him unreliable. In case you can't tell, what I'm trying to say is certain blogs can be used as sources. APK that's not my name 14:48, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- APK - what is your position on the Examiner? [14] Thanks, ObserverNY (talk) 14:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Examiner.com is not considered a RS because the writers are citizen journalists with no editorial oversight. (Note: examiner.com is not the same as sfexaminer.com or washingtonexaminer.com - same parent company, but the last two are actual newspapers) APK that's not my name 15:14, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Are these blogs under the full editorial control of these publications? So far, no one has presented any evidence that they are. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 15:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Such evidence is almost possible to produce and is not required for the RS standard. These sources are from mainstream, legitimate news organizations on the websites of those organizations and should not be removed. Gamaliel (talk) 19:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Except that it is in the standard. It's mentioned explicitly. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- The standard does not require an editor to produce unobtainable evidence of the internal workings of a news organization. The fact that a professional journalist writes a blog on the website of his employer, a professional news organization, is more than sufficient to meet this standard. Gamaliel (talk) 21:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Again, that's not what the policy says. In fact, it says "where a news organization publishes the opinions of a professional but claims no responsibility for the opinions, the writer of the cited piece should be attributed." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why you think the part you quoted is relevant. In the case of Politico, I don't think anyone is interested in Smith's opinion. Gamaliel (talk) 23:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Again, that's not what the policy says. In fact, it says "where a news organization publishes the opinions of a professional but claims no responsibility for the opinions, the writer of the cited piece should be attributed." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- It's relevant because you claimed "Such evidence is almost possible to produce and is not required for the RS standard.". The reality is that it is required, and if it's impossible to produce, then it's not a reliable source according to the policies as written. If you don't like the wording of the policies, this is not the place to debate them. Go to their talk pages and lobby for them to be changed. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:52, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- You still haven't connected any of these policy quotes. The quote about the "opinions of a professional" is irrelevant because no one is quoting Smith's opinion and I don't believe it is an opinion piece. RS does not require internal evidence of the workings of a professional news publication, and you haven't quoted anything that backs up that assertion. I'm not interested in debating policy, I'm simply pointing out that it doesn't prohibit blogs and it doesn't place the impossible requirements that you claim it does. Politico meets the reliable source standard. Ben Smith is a professional journalist in the employ of Politico. That's all we need. Gamaliel (talk) 04:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- I contacted Ben Smith and in his reply, he found it "strange" that there would be some kind of doubt in regards to his blog's credibility, considering he's one of Politico's "senior political writers". Smith said there's not an official statement on the site explicitly saying his Politico blog has full editorial control, but that he could write a statement if it would solve the problem. He also asked where this debate was taking place, so a link to this discussion was provided.
- I find it strange that A Quest For Knowledge doesn't have a problem with the Politico article I added yesterday (co-authored by Ben Smith), but doesn't want to use a Politico blog authored by the same individual. APK that's not my name 05:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- APK - Thank you for the clarification. ObserverNY (talk) 16:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- As well as Jake Tapper's ABC News blog. I posted it at the noticeboard since A Quest For Knowledge kept deleting it, there's only one response so far, but it does say it is a reliable source. -- Dougie WII (talk) 19:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- He's pretty reliable for most subjects, although occasionally he does drift a bit into commentary or pundit mode. Reliability isn't an on-off switch for entire websites, writers, or columns. There is a spectrum of reliability (and perhaps a threshold below which we shouldn't fall), and that's very dependent of the context of the statement and what it's being used for. If Tapper makes an aside that the weather in Washington is "blistering hot" this month I don't think we should use that in an article about climatology, that's just color commentary. Wikidemon (talk) 23:35, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
You should take this up with the earlier editor who was the one saying the blog was inadmissible when I tried to use it. If we can decided it is usable then I will add the part about Jones' involvement in the 2002 San Fran 9/11 Rally. JohnHistory (talk) 20:03, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
NYT FINALLY prints story
At 12:42 PM ET, many hours after the Washington Post and LATimes had stories on Jones' resignation, the New York Times produced this: [15] Suggestions for inclusion> Should we cite conservative criticism of the Times for having had ZERO mention of the controversy before today? Regards, ObserverNY (talk) 17:13, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Sure, in the Wikipedia article for the New York Times. Not here. Reliefappearance (talk) 17:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- This is an article on Van Jones, not the New York Times and even then, I doubt this is significant enough to warrant including it in that article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:32, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Noted. Thanks ObserverNY (talk) 19:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
The editors on this page were also following the NY times model. Yesterday, at this time, there was not one mention of the controversy that would later cause Van Jones to resign that very night. JohnHistory (talk) 20:13, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- "Dog bites man" is not news, because it is a frequent occurrence, and consistent with the way we understand dogs to behave. "Man bites dog" is news, because it's uncommon, and isn't what we expect a man to do. "Obama appointee resigns" is news. "Glenn Beck criticizes Democrat for having leftist opinions, actions, and associations, and accuses Democrat of working to undermine America" isn't news. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Clearly the evidence today shows your statements to be false. I profoundly disagree with you, and it's moot at this point, but having been a "communist" and a part of STORM (when did he renounce it?) talking about "white environmentalists steering pollution into colored peoples neighborhoods" calling ALL republicans "assholes" and Bush a "crackhead" and only white kids shoot up whole schools, blacks just kill each other one at a time, signing a document that purported that 9/11 was an inside job, probably being on the organizing committee for a 2002 9/11 Truth Rally, etc, etc is man bites dog for a top appointee in the whitehouse. In fact, it's completely without precedent. I think maybe some of you sort of pitted yourself against Beck, and thereby ignored the facts and the story. Anyway, it's moot now other then to show of the problems present on retrospection. JohnHistory (talk) 20:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- You're confusing me with someone else; I don't think I've ever edited this article. My point is not anything about Van Jones, but that Glenn Beck says that some Democrat is trying to destroy America every night- that's his job. The New York Times wouldn't normally have a story about Beck criticizing a Democrat, because he does it every day. By the way- aren't you against racism in environmental policy? Most people are; that Jones spoke against it in a speech doesn't belong in your list, since a black politician speaking against racist policies is about as newsworthy as me saying "I like cheese." -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Just to butt in here FQ, frankly, I don't think it is stated anywhere that Van Jones is a registered Democrat. He was appointed to his position by a Democrat President, but he is a "self-avowed Communist". Glenn Beck's exposure of Jones' past is what resulted in Republican senators calling for an investigation and Jones' resignation. Beck needs to be given due credit in this article since his expose began in late July and it wasn't until TODAY that the NYT, that bastion of the Left, found it HAD to give the story some print. ObserverNY (talk) 23:25, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
I am talking about the article in general, I'm singling you out. But, you completely missed my point. What the heck does Beck have to do with anything? who cares if he said Jones was Jesus or the Devil? Beck didn't make Jones make these highly controversial statements. That was Jones 100%. Beck is irrelevant unless you way to interested in him. These statements were all available without Beck. Also, I think saying that "white environmentalists are steering pollution into people of color neighborhoods" is extremely racist statement by Jones. I'd love to know who these "white environmentalists" who are killing minorities are, exactly. JohnHistory (talk) 20:40, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Do you not understand my point? You are basically saying because Beck focuses on something, that thing can now not be discussed even though those things essentially have nothing to do with Beck. I think that is a catch 22 of sorts. JohnHistory (talk) 20:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- Mr Beck who has risen from nowhere to #1 rated cable television show, spends a week or more featuring this guy as MOST WANTED CZAR, makes headlines because his enemies want to organize a boycott of his show, and then essentially succeeds in getting his target to resign because he's got out the word that the guy is a self-proclaimed communist, calls for "changing the entire system", "give them the wealth", called for supporting a convicted police killer, etc, is of absolutely no relevance to the Van Jones article??? That the NY Times has evidently completely ignored this, could this possibly be related to people saying that there is nothing notable about GB taking this man down? Even mainstream coverage of the resignation mention essentially none of the charges or complaints against this man other than the boycott and a-hole comments. Bachcell (talk) 22:00, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- (ec) Beck is relevant to the the political controversy because he in large part fomented by advocating for Van Jones' resignation - see the comment immediately above. We do not need to quote or endorse Beck's words or those of other pundits (though I think it is useful to quote Rep. Pence here), but we can include third party sourcing that Beck was the most prominent among the conservative media who were at the center of the story. The mainstream media has covered the underlying incidents in news and analysis articles (perhaps the New York Times last, but all major media have covered it by this point), so we don't really need to rely on blogs or editorials, or to say that "X said Van Jones did Y". We can simply say "Van Jones did Y" and source it to reliable sources. I hope that makes sense. Wikidemon (talk) 22:06, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually, most major news networks, publications did not cover the story at all. Look at this link. Beck certainly focused on the story a lot, but it is misleading to say that anyone other then Jones led to his resignation. It was Jones exact quotes and actions, not Becks that led to his resignation. JohnHistory (talk) 22:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
In fact, if this article is going to point out Beck leading the way on Van Jones controversy, it should be balanced and also report the equally notable total absence of coverage by all of the above linnked major publications. I mean this story was ongoing for quite some time, and he did resign at the end of it and yet no coverage. So, if we are going to get into the coverage we should do it accurately. JohnHistory (talk) 22:31, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHIstory
- (ec) I want to try to impress the point that this article is about Van Jones. What is written here on this topic needs to focus on Van Jones's resignation and the context for understanding it, not just whatever commentary or meta-commentary was thrown out there. So stuff like the NYT not covering Beck's criticism, or some such, isn't relevant. And if it hadn't apparently caused such an effect on Van Jones's life, Beck's criticism would have been equally unimportant.
- Relatedly, I am concerned about the advocacy and POV-pushing being displayed here. Please try to improve the article as an article on a person, not as a way to champion one or the other side of partisan politics. For this article, conservative punditry is only important in so far as understanding what has happened in regards to Van Jones, and no further. This is not a venue to inflate the stature of Beck, or slam mainstream media, or repeat partisan caricatures, or any such thing. —AySz88\^-^ 22:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- If most reliable sources don't cover something but partisan media does, per Wikipedia that means it's not notable (or in the context of an article, not noteworthy enough to include). If the reliable sources note that the partisan sources advocate on a topic, that gives verifiability and lends weight to the proposition that we should note in the appropriate article that the partisan media re doing it. If the reliable sources note that partisan media bemoans the absence of coverage on a given topic, then we can mention this is what the partisan media is bemoaning. What we can't do is source a claim that a major story is not duly covered only to unreliable sources who are making that claim. Here, what the reliable sources are saying (among other things), is that conservative opponents of the administration began complaining in July over a couple incidents from Jones' past and making calls for his resignation or firing, after which he resigned abruptly, with little support from the administration, which said that it had not vetted him properly. Something like that. Beck was one of the primary complainers, as well as a couple legislators on Capitol Hill. Beck has some other issues surrounding him that are better covered in his own article, but there is clearly a nexus between his advocacy and Jones' resignation. Even to run with JohnHistory's comments and even if one sympathizes entirely with Beck and against Jones, if one can analogize to Richard Nixon, he has only himself to blame for Watergate and his resignation, but nevertheless one can't tell the story without mentioning the role of Bob Woodward. Wikidemon (talk) 22:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
You don't need to really even mention Beck unless you think his showcasing Jones caused him to resign, I'm not sure how you prove that. But, you don't need "partisan outlets" to see that there was zero coverage by NBC and NY Times, etc. I think giving Beck all of the credit, or so much of it, does to some degree glorify him in the eyes of some. Out of curiousity, what were your "non partisan" sources? I think comparing Beck's role which was to report on things you can find on google and youtube does not compare to bob woodwards admin leak and info that was not easily available or confirmable to say the least. It would be like if deep throat was on google or youtube and Bob Woodward was just only one talking about it. Apples and oranges. JohnHistory (talk) 23:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- You're correct that Woodward's role is different, and part of the official story at this point. I would have to reread them, but I think most of the major media stories are giving Republicans and conservative press / bloggers / advocates primary credit for triggering the controversy that lead to the resignation. The New York Times piece we've discussed says that Beck was at the forefront of that. A lot of the left-wing press is vilifying Beck over that as well, but of course they're not reliable sources. The story is so new, maybe we can take another look in a few days and wait for some more thoughtful analysis pieces that describe the course of events. I do think you're right, that because this is primarily a biography, it's most important to keep the focus on Jones, to say that he was appointed, then soon resigned amidst a controversy over his past statements. So the description of how those past statements came to light, caused a controversy, and played out, is a secondary matter in a biographical sense (although it may be the more relevant issue in articles about the political environment). Wikidemon (talk) 23:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
I suppose my point is that Beck is notable only because he covered widely available info on Jones while most others did not even mention them. Thus, Beck's role is only relevant in so much as most other outlets gave it little to 0 coverage. Do you understand what I am saying? If the other outlets had covered it, Beck would not be as notable because they all had access to the same info. JohnHistory (talk) 23:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
Agreed, lets let the story develop, but I think my points are valid that it is a bit of catch-22. JohnHistory (talk) 23:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
I'd like to reiterate myself that this article is on Van Jones. It's not about Beck, the NYT, Obama, how the mainstream media sucks (and God does it suck), or any other topic. This does not have much to do with Jones as a person. The Squicks (talk) 00:56, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Criticism of Republicans Section & the deletion of the 9/11 Section's spokesperson Washington TImes Quotes
I think saying Jones calling all Republicans "assholes" was "criticism" is not accurate. A., that is beyond criticism, it's derogatory. B. Jones calls himself an "asshole" as well and he seems to view it as a positive connotation. Thusly, it's not clearly criticism, and it's also more derogatory then that because it using the word "asshole."
Secondly, originally there was the washington times quotes from the 9/11 peoples spokesperson who said everyone on the list was contacted and verified which made sense given Jones later retraction to include. I think that should be put back into the article 9/11 Section. JohnHistory (talk) 22:04, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- The already cited NY Times piece also refers to them as "derogatory" and not "criticism". It is below.
- http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/07/us/politics/07vanjones.html?_r=1&em JohnHistory (talk) 22:11, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- Using "Derogatory statement" as a header is pushing a point of view. Leave it as "criticism." — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 22:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- I think "statement" is more neutral "criticism". I don't think "derogatory" is exactly POV, because that's what it is, but I can see how it may be too strong of a word to use in a headline. If "derogatory" is a problem, why not just say something completely neutral like "Statements made at xxx speech" or "public statements about Republicans"? Calling someone an asshole is not a criticism nor is it an opinion, it's name-calling. The criticism, accusing Republicans of being obstructionists, was hardly the issue that got him in trouble. It was the use of the word. Probably a lot of people have that opinion about a lot of politicians of all stripes. The incivility is saying so in public when one is in a position of authority, not thinking it. I'm pretty sure the sources would back that up. If you read them, they don't say that Van Jones criticized the Republicans as being assholes, it says he called them assholes. Wikidemon (talk) 22:21, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
You don't think calling all Republicans "assholes" is derogatory? I agree with wikidemon that criticism is not accurate enough. If "derogatory" is too strong for the header then something else should be used but lets not dumb it down too much. For example a SF paper article I just saw called his comment the "infamous A-hole comment" and NY times cited above called it "derogatory". JohnHistory (talk) 22:42, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
I titled it "The Berkeley Green Energy Conference Statement". That is about as neutral as possible, I think. JohnHistory (talk) 22:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
In the future, though I think Derogatory or something like that would be more to the point. "derogatory" is what the NY Times called it. But, we can leave that for another day. JohnHistory (talk) 22:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- Per WP:MOS, section headers don't get capitalized unless they're mentioning a proper noun. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 22:52, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- We could be factual and just say something like "Calling Republicans 'assholes'"... but I forget, Wikipedia is censored :) Anyway, like I said, he was criticizing Republicans at the time, but what made it an issue was that specific indecorous word. Wikidemon (talk) 22:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Excuse me, but I do believe the a**holes quote along with the "George Bush is a crackhead" quote are notable in displaying the extreme public crudeness of this individual.
- And what I want to know is - Was this a**hole paid a salary with our taxdollars? ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 23:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Neither of those sentences are on topic. This is not a forum. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 23:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Extreme public crudeness? You mean you've never used that word in public or while on the clock for your job? If not, good for you! I try to avoid it also... but bad language is certainly nothing uncommon. I think it has to do with the expectation of decorum around high-ranking officials, and when speaking in a public capacity. There's also a secondary issue, not that the word was so bad, but that he lacked the political savvy to mind his tongue when the microphone was on. From all accounts, there is some very bad language said in Washington when the microphone is off. There are so many things one is not supposed to say in politics, it's almost a test of political astuteness to navigate all the minefields. So, for example, it is okay to say that Obama (or Bush) undermines everything America stands for and is going to feed the country to the terrorists. But it is not okay to use bad language even if only to say that certain people are too hostile. It is the manner, not the content. Wikidemon (talk) 23:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding the forum comment, point taken. But I think it is useful to reason through just why it is that the comments have made a fuss, to understand why some sources are making much to do about them, as long as we keep our eyes on what the article is eventually going to say on the subject. Wikidemon (talk) 23:31, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Extreme public crudeness? You mean you've never used that word in public or while on the clock for your job? If not, good for you! I try to avoid it also... but bad language is certainly nothing uncommon. I think it has to do with the expectation of decorum around high-ranking officials, and when speaking in a public capacity. There's also a secondary issue, not that the word was so bad, but that he lacked the political savvy to mind his tongue when the microphone was on. From all accounts, there is some very bad language said in Washington when the microphone is off. There are so many things one is not supposed to say in politics, it's almost a test of political astuteness to navigate all the minefields. So, for example, it is okay to say that Obama (or Bush) undermines everything America stands for and is going to feed the country to the terrorists. But it is not okay to use bad language even if only to say that certain people are too hostile. It is the manner, not the content. Wikidemon (talk) 23:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Neither of those sentences are on topic. This is not a forum. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 23:22, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- Wikidemon - I agree with the fact that the "indecorous" (love it) word was uttered a mere month before his appointment. The new tape showing Jones calling Bush a crackhead and "licking the crackpipe looking for a fix" was equally derogatory and lewd and should be included. Try and keep up with the conversation HelloAnnyong. Did you take your gingko balboa yet? ObserverNY (talk) 23:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- No, I didn't, and for two reasons: I know the difference between 3RR and 3O, and I know how to spell ginkgo biloba properly. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 23:35, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
- OMG! I mixed up WP:30 and WP:3RR!! Take me out to the woodshed and shoot me, right now! Yet you couldn't be the least bit intellectually honest and DEDUCE that I meant it was under WP:3O when you entered the IB battlefield. Now you followed me over just to be a pain here. OH! and a typo in gingko bilboa! Well that must be grounds for getting me banned for sure, right HA? Good grief! ObserverNY (talk) 23:43, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Helloannyong - No one else here objected to my re-wording of the opening sentence. Only YOU felt the bully enough to come in here and remove it without any discussion or consensus. Your motives for editing this page and targeting my edits in particular are now exposed. Please behave civilly. ObserverNY (talk) 23:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Well, I object too, more on style grounds than POV. The lede already has a paragraph about the resignation, so we don't need to split that paragraph up between the first and the last part of the lede. The introductory sentence is should identify briefly who he is, what he's known for, and the basic facts of his name, birth year, nationality, etc. It's most straightforward to say that he's an [insert occupation(s)] who [insert actions], than to lead with the scandal. Just for comparison (per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS it's best to look to other articles for inspiration rather than as a pattern) I was looking through some other articles about appointees who either did not win confirmation or who were drummed out. Normally it says their occupation in the first sentence, then their downfall somewhere farther into the lede. That's true even in cases like Joycelyn Elders and Robert Bork who are best known to the public for their scandals, but probably within serious non-political circles perhaps known for their careers more than the political scandal. I think in this case it's okay given the sourcing available now to include a brief statement at the end of the first sentence saying that he resigned over a political controversy about his past but if we go into too much detail the lede gets redundant. Wikidemon (talk) 00:19, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, and regarding spelling and civility, I much prefer oolong tea to ginko blobba. Wikidemon (talk) 00:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- I like Irish Breakfast. Did you know that breakfast teas are so named because of their higher caffeine content? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 00:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, and regarding spelling and civility, I much prefer oolong tea to ginko blobba. Wikidemon (talk) 00:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Hey, my apologies Wikidemon. HelloAnnyong incorrectly identified the edit in the lead as being AgnosticPreacherKid's and because of my tunnel-vision at being stalked by HelloAnnyong, I only saw his/her reversion of my edit. I'm fine with the way you fleshed out the lead.
- FQ - I didn't know that! See what one can learn in Wikipedia? ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 00:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- (ec 7) "Well, I object too, more on style grounds than POV." Ditto. (side note: The insults being thrown around here - and on certain user talk pages - needs to stop. Thanks.) APK that's not my name 00:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, that's why people drink them for breakfast. You know, to wake up. JohnHistory (talk) 00:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
I think by "extreme public crudeness" ObserverNY meant it was extremely crude public conduct by a whitehouse official as opposed to if Jones had called someone an asshole behind closed doors. Of course, he is right about that. JohnHistory (talk) 00:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- Wouldn't it be more logical to call the section Statements about Republicans? After all, WP:BLP is our lodestar and we need to be as encyclopedia-like in our titling as possible. The Squicks (talk) 00:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Not really, because it was specific to that event, and not pural statements but the singular statement of "assholes."
Also, I changed the boycott part because saying that the Color or Change created and advertiser boycott of the Beck show implies Beck lost all of his advertisers so I changed that to attempted, and also added the highly relevant info that said group was one Jones' former groups. JohnHistory (talk) 00:54, 7 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
I better reworded it from my previous attempt. JohnHistory (talk) 01:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- It must be noted that Beck attacked Jones before the boycott started. The Squicks (talk) 00:58, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't think "attack" is the right word. We had a bunch of the quotes on here before. For instance, when Beck called Jones' a communist, he was in fact quoting Jones' own declaration. You could say "criticized" but now we are getting into the weeds of the Beck thing which I think we should wait and see how much outside media references we want in this article. JohnHistory (talk) 01:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- (ec) This CNN video story[16] has a pretty good, interesting perspective, and raises several points: (1) it was the two incidents already cited plus the comment about becoming a communist that were the main elements of the scandal; (2) it contains footage of the "asshole" comment - it would be original research / primary sourcing to comment directly about the video in the article, but even though it's kind of amusing how honest he's being about his opinion it's pretty out there as far as appropriateness in a public speech; (3) conservative commentators, and particularly Glen Beck, are largely responsible (my words, not sure exactly what language CNN uses, so that bears double-checking) for bringing Jones' past up now as a matter for discussion; and (4) Jones supporters claim (note that CNN does not verify that it's true, only that it's a claim) that Beck targeted Jones as payback for Jones trying to undermine Beck's advertisers by supporting the boycott after Beck called Obama racist. That last point is the tie-in. If this is an escalating game of tit-for-tat political retribution it only makes sense to mention that context. I'm fine per JohnHistory's comment that we might want to wait and see how this is analyzed. This is an unfolding story, and the resignation may not be the last of it. As they say Wikipedia has no deadline. I'm off for a while y'all, so happy holiday! - Wikidemon (talk) 01:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- I am of the opinion that the 1st uncited sentence of the Resignation section is lame. Glenn Beck deserves full credit for his month and a half investigative reporting on Van Jones. That is exactly what it was - investigative reporting. Beck kept building the case, building and building until the mountain of irrefutable evidence as to the question of Jones' "fitness" to serve in the WH could no longer be ignored. Except by the NYT until 12:30 today ... ObserverNY (talk) 01:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Goodness. It wasn't just Beck. It was Tapper, Beck, and the legions of right-wing bloggers. There's no one person behind this here. The Squicks (talk) 02:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- I am of the opinion that the 1st uncited sentence of the Resignation section is lame. Glenn Beck deserves full credit for his month and a half investigative reporting on Van Jones. That is exactly what it was - investigative reporting. Beck kept building the case, building and building until the mountain of irrefutable evidence as to the question of Jones' "fitness" to serve in the WH could no longer be ignored. Except by the NYT until 12:30 today ... ObserverNY (talk) 01:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
ObserverNY, my only concern with that is that it be done in a way that people don't misunderstand the fact that Beck was reporting verifiable facts about Van Jones, and that it wasn't Beck's hyped conjecture or maleficence that led to to Van Jones resigning. Do you see what I mean? JohnHistory (talk) 03:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)JohnHistory
- Hi JH - Because of the left-wing attacks against Glenn Beck as being a "nutjob, cry-baby, conspiracy-theorist, idiot", I think it is all the more important that Beck be vindicated for doing responsible, legitimate, investigative reporting which unearthed this incredible radical history of a man the WH either didn't vet or was "ok" with. Beck focused extensively on what was written in the STORM manual. None of what he exposed has been proven to be false. The "best" Jones supporters could come up with was Beck saying Jones was in prison. Well, Jones WAS in jail. Not a lie. If Jones wasn't afraid and ashamed of what Beck was exposing, Color of Change never would have launched it's attempt to get advertisers to boycott his show. That reminds me, I need to send CVS another e-mail. ;-) ObserverNY (talk) 11:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
Please Restore My Edit
Please restore my edit about why Van Jones resigned. I specified that the euphemism "political controversy" was that he was exposed as a 9/11 truther and SELF-DESCRIBED Communist. Not suprisingly this edit was reverted. Further confirming the strong bias in Wikipedia. Please restore my edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Legokid (talk • contribs) 06:26, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Your edit was reverted because the lead section should be a general overview of the article's content. Plus, the wording wasn't neutral. In regards to bias, I'm glad to be a part of the confirmation. (irony alert - the person that confirmed your bias is a libertarian who is strongly opposed to socialism, marxism, communism, and uh, brutalism) APK that's not my name 06:52, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- It's kind of funny that anyone is afraid of communists still in 2009, but here goes. This all comes from this 2005 piece in the East Bay Express, a legitimate if rather sloppy and liberal free weekly, although that particular story is very good and would make a good source for this article. Apparently Jones was wrongly arrested along with many others for being in the wrong place at the wrong time in the San Francisco franchise of the Rodney King riots - San Francisco police of the era were notorious for cordoning off entire blocks and arresting everyone on the block, office workers, lawyers, journalists, etc. His growing anger over the Rodney King verdict, and experiences with others he met in jail, radicalized him. This was from his earl life - 24 to 26 years old. But then again, he had already graduated from Yale Law School so one would assume he knew the significance of declaring himself a communist. The quotation in the paper is: "I was a rowdy nationalist on April 28th... and then the verdicts came down on April 29th," he said. "By August, I was a communist." That's too flimsy to call him a (former) communist, self-described or otherwise. If someone decides for some reason they are a Mormon, or a horse lover, or a football fan, and relates that story twelve years later as a thing of the past, we don't label them a former Mormon, horse lover, or football fan. It's not encyclopedic to define people in that way. However, in the biographical section it makes sense to note his foundational role in the neo-Marxist/Leninist radical group STORM, in due weight and proportion with other events in his life. Many sources cite this quote as being the third issue at the core of the controversy, in addition to the truther petition and the "assholes" comment, so we should mention it to. It's not whether he was a communist or not, or what that meant, or his actual past with STORM. Those are all biographically important, perhaps, and some of the conservative agitators did describe them in detail. But it was this quotation in particular that got people riled up in 2009. - Wikidemon (talk) 10:55, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Wait - let me say it - This is not a forum. LOL! If you want to discuss why right-minded Americans "fear" communism and what this administration is doing, please visit my talk page. Thanks. ObserverNY (talk) 13:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
None of this has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with Communism. Glenn Beck is a psychotic right wing lunatic who called the President of the United States a racist, then Van Jones' organized a boycott of Beck's show and Beck took down Van Jones. For all we know the President is involved. Stop blathering about crap that is totally unrelated. The real tragedy here is that what this country really needs, Education Reform, Health Care Reform, Immigration Reform, all goes by the wayside while this silly season bullshit is going on. Reliefappearance (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Whoa. Reform this: This is not a WP:forum ObserverNY (talk) 15:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- Please get off that horse, and look at your own comment made 11:39, 7 September 2009 about Beck being a right-minded journalist who doggedly exposed the truth of the Obama administration. A number of people would do well to tone down their language about people on all sides of this issue. But in substance, much of the commentary in the sources is that Beck is a fringe radical who swiftboated Jones at a time when the administration was vulnerable, and has been making weird comparisons of Obama and his administration to nazis, communists, racists, etc.[17] That is part of the context of the matter, and is in the sources. It would be helpful if you would not editorialize on this page, then cry FORUM every time someone makes a comment that is less than unquestioningly supportive of the view of Beck as a fair player in all of this. The story of the firing is not that Jones made some ill-advised choices and statements, then the truth came out. The story is that the truth was there all along and everyone was fine with it until Fox News gave a very radical partisan a platform to stir up some Americans' racial fears. The matter cannot be fairly treated in an encyclopedia article without going into the entire context, which is in many of the sources, that this comes in the heels of Beck's anti-administration campaign. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:08, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Whoa. Reform this: This is not a WP:forum ObserverNY (talk) 15:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- "The story is that the truth was there all along and everyone was fine with it until Fox News..." LOL! Oh stop, you're killing me, seriously, my sides hurt from laughing so hard! If oblivious=truth to Liberals, this country is in sadder shape than I thought. ObserverNY (talk) 17:15, 7 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- P.S. - I have no objection to your recent edit adding the context in which Beck called Obama a "racist", Btw You might want to take a look at this: http://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/7839539 which was published months before the Gates/Crowley incident where Obama said the cops "acted stupidly". ObserverNY (talk) 17:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)ObserverNY
- It's no secret that Gates and Obama were friends / acquaintances / mutual supporters long before the controversy, and many suggested that Obama's quick defense of Gates arose out of their personal connection. If laughing at it is your way of dealing with reality I won't stop you, but the source I provided (here in the talk page) is readily available to anyone with google and it took me all of 45 seconds to find. The truthers' anti-Bush conspiracy theory was well covered at the time and Jones' signature as one of the hundred was, well, right there on the list of hundred. His founding of STORM and his radical activism in the 1990s were never concealed and were covered by all these sources, and apparently common knowledge in his circles in San Francisco. What makes this suddenly an issue in July, 2009? By "everyone" I meant insiders. I have a hard time imagining that anyone on either side couldn't have found this if they had wanted or tried. Wikidemon (talk) 18:08, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- "I have a hard time imagining that anyone on either side couldn't have found this if they had wanted or tried." The Democrats didn't try, because they didn't have to.
- Remember that Jones was a czar. He did not have to be confirmed by the Senate. Thus, Obama did not vet him like he did- say- the Secretary of Human Services. The Squicks (talk) 20:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- A White House official conceded that Jones “was not as thoroughly vetted as other administration officials,” though the official suggested it had more to do with the relatively low level of Jones’s job than with the power of his patrons. (http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=916325D5-18FE-70B2-A84730F1B94EE50E) The Squicks (talk) 20:18, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Wikidemon, you don't honestly think that the only reason people attacked Jones was because he is black, do you? Did the fact that Timothy Geitner is white make any difference in his confirmation controversy? Or Tom Dashle's controversy? The Squicks (talk) 20:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- The lede should be restored to reflect "self-described communist". This is really the only reason that this man has reached the treshhold of notability, and direct language is to be perfered to euphemismsin any case.--Die4Dixie (talk) 22:25, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Wikidemon, you don't honestly think that the only reason people attacked Jones was because he is black, do you? Did the fact that Timothy Geitner is white make any difference in his confirmation controversy? Or Tom Dashle's controversy? The Squicks (talk) 20:16, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- Re. Squicks, I hope my comments didn't imply that people are attacking Jones for being black. They're attacking him as political payback and to get at Obama - per the sources that is what the pro-Obama people and his defenders are saying. As per the vetting, I do have a hard time believing that the White House didn't know. No point speculating now, but the coverage today is that the entire system of appointing czars is going to be under scrutiny so we'll likely have some more sources on just what the vetting process was. Re. Die4Dixie, he isn't a "self-described communist". Is there any reliable source that identifies him as that? He said what he said, which is that he was at one time (he used past tense) a communist. It's fair to mention that, but only in the context of the controversy and in due course in the chronology of that period in his life. To highlight that in the lede as what defines him is of undue weight. The reliable sources don't identify him as that, they identify him as the controversial / embattled green czar and former radical activist who resigned in a controversy. The controversy is the notability, not the underlying events. Calling Republicans "assholes", being one of a hundred signatories to a fringe petition, and describing oneself as a former communist, none of those are the sorts of things that confer notability, and none of them are reported as notable outside of the context of this incident. Wikidemon (talk) 23:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- I politely disagree, Wikidemon. If a poll is taken and concensus is attempted, I´ll come down a little to the left of ObserverNY, but not much. When all the opinions about the edit are in, I will support whatever concensus dictates.
Again, This has nothing to do with Communism, at all. Beck called Obama a "racist" Jones' got Color of Change involved to do a boycott (unsourced, but I think we know what happened here) and then Beck went on an ADD rage against Jones' who was forced to resign because Congress is coming back to town and the issue had to be resolved quickly. Jones' use of the word COMMUNIST in the early 90's was a completely different context from Beck using the word COMMUNIST in 2009. Beck used the word as a scare tactic. Also, the fact that Jones is black obviously helped Beck's cause with people who don't like black people. THIS IS AMERICAN HARDBALL POLITICS PEOPLE. The real shame is that partisan editors come here SPECIFICALLY TO PUSH AN AGENDA. Just look at Observer's talk page. They celebrated when Jones resigned. That really has no place on Wikipedia.
Here is the quote from Observers talk page.
Van Jones is Gone Dude!!! Hell's yeah!
Hell yeah man, I just thought I would let you know. He resigned!!!!
We did it, man!!!!
Reliefappearance (talk) 13:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- Reliefappearance, please don't remove comments made by other users unless it's vandalism or turning into a forum. Also, if you have an issue with NYObserver's talk page, then please take your concerns to the appropriate forum. APK that's not my name 14:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Bob Beckel
This edit[18] has some problems, which is why I modified it. The one reliable source (if you can call it that), a Fox News piece, mentions that Robert Beckel was the first prominent Democrat to ask for Jones to resign. So far so good. But what's the point in mentioning he was assistant to Jimmy Carter or that he is a "liberal" (something not in the reliable source, and that would therefore be WP:SYNTH to mention even if otherwise sourceable). It seems that this is a quest for balance that is not there in the sources, to show that liberals oppose Jones too, something that is largely not the case. Wikidemon (talk) 23:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- You said "The one reliable source (if you can call it that), a Fox News..." Let me take that apart. You are implying that Fox News is a "less reliable" source than ... say ... the Huffington Post or the East Bay Express? Thank you sincerely for injecting humor into the discussion (your construct is transparent). I pay attention to all sources, and I would say that Fox is more "Fair and Balanced" than "publications" like either the Huffington Post or the East Bay Express. HP and EBE are both classic opinion rags that exercise content control and opinion bias as mentioned by WP:RS. Fox News on the other hand is mainstream (WP:RS). Yes, Glenn Beck is on Fox (moved there from CNN, where CNN described his program as an "unconventional look at the news of the day"), and Beck does inject opinion around factual and documentable news. However I am not citing Beck, I am citing a mainstream news program and a transcript thereof.
- Also the point in mentioning "liberal" and "Jimmy Carter" is to give the reader context on who Bob Beckel is. Not too many years ago, I didn't know who he was, and I was impressed by his credentials. The citations for those two facts of who Bob Beckel is would be his own article here on Wikipedia. The "balance" you mention is a potentially interesting and relevant fact to Wikipedia encyclopedia researchers/customers.
- WP:RS is a huge joke overall when it comes to politics. Why? Because like the amalgamated crowd of most high school students and many Wikipedia political page editors, one can pick and choose sources to advance his or her own bias. To me it's telling (starting with maturity) that the National Review has nothing to say about this whole matter.
- Controlling Wikipedia content, like controlling language, is an attempt to control thought. Deleting factual and documentable independent reliable sources doesn't change the fact, just as applying labels to mainstream sources do not make them irrelevant.
- Ultimately I am a libertarian, the highlight thereof being free thinking (read that as "deep respect for WP:NPOV nonbias and WP:RS documentable fact"). -- JayWhitney (talk) 16:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- I think Beckel's quote is notable for 2 reasons. First, he made it prior to the resignation. I don't think quotes post-resignation need to be included here. Second, he worked for Jimmy Carter, he is not just another Joe Schmoe liberal Democrat. I think it should mention he worked for Carter and provide Wiki link to Beckel's Wikipedia article as well as Carter's.
- Reliefappearance (talk) 17:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
This is truly amazing(and hilarious)
I edited the article and added specific the FACTS about WHY Mr. Jones resigned. It was quicky reverted. So I posted here and asked them to put it back. That post was even removed! How can you say "Wikipedia is unbiased" with a straight face?
I bet this post will even be deleted within an hour. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Legokid (talk • contribs) 21:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- It will not be deleted; however, if you care to dicuss your edit as an atetmpt to improve the article, the it will likely not be closed. You will have to defend your edit here. I don´t know what the edit even was.--Die4Dixie (talk) 00:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- His edits are here [19], [20], [21] and quite honestly, I can see why they were reverted. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- First onelooks good.--Die4Dixie (talk) 00:33, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- His edits are here [19], [20], [21] and quite honestly, I can see why they were reverted. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- The edits were made to push a partisan agenda. Thus, they are not WP:NPOV. Furthermore, Jones did not resign because of anything he said, Jones resigned because the issue was becoming a distraction and Congress was to reconvene in a few days. And, third, all of this information is already in the article. Reliefappearance (talk) 13:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- Please WP:AGF, and comment on edits and not users alleged motives, your crytal ball notwithstanding.--Die4Dixie (talk) 15:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- I did comment on his edits. I also urge you to WP:AGF and please do not post threats on my talk page. Reliefappearance (talk) 16:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- You did comment on his edits, and also on your ideas about his and other edotors motives. Stop this behaviour, as it is disruptive to the collaborative nature of this project. As I pointed out to you on your talk page, I do not wish to ngage you in lenthly debate about your misbehaviour. Correct it if you would like to continu editing.--Die4Dixie (talk) 17:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- I did comment on his edits. I also urge you to WP:AGF and please do not post threats on my talk page. Reliefappearance (talk) 16:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- Please WP:AGF, and comment on edits and not users alleged motives, your crytal ball notwithstanding.--Die4Dixie (talk) 15:02, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- The edits were made to push a partisan agenda. Thus, they are not WP:NPOV. Furthermore, Jones did not resign because of anything he said, Jones resigned because the issue was becoming a distraction and Congress was to reconvene in a few days. And, third, all of this information is already in the article. Reliefappearance (talk) 13:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Date of resignation
this is the link that is cited in the article [22]
"White House environmental adviser Van Jones resigned late Saturday"
Thus, the date of resignation is Saturday September 5, 2009.
The annoucement of the resignation (not the resignation) came shortly after midnight, on Sunday September 6, 2009.
"The announcement that Jones was stepping down came minutes after midnight Sunday morning"
Reliefappearance (talk) 17:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- You removed the citations I added that state: "In a letter released just after midnight Saturday..." (the word Saturday is used, but after midnight = Sunday) and "The resignation early Sunday of “green jobs” adviser Van Jones...".
You added quotation marks around "Thus, the date of resignation is Saturday September 5, 2009", but the source you're providing doesn't say that.(quotation marks were removed) APK that's not my name 17:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
- ^ Carpenter, Amanda (03 September, 2009). "Green jobs czar signed 'truther' statement in 2004". washingtontimes.com. Retrieved 04 September, 2009.
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