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== Genre order == |
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How should genres be ordered in the infobox? In my experience it seems that alphabetical is the most common and also the most fair. Is that correct?[[User:-5-|-5-]] ([[User talk:-5-|talk]]) 16:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC) |
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:My experience seems to indicate the opposite. For example, [[Led Zeppelin]] and [[Pink Floyd]] have its genres ordered by prominence, not alphabetical order. In the case of [[Soundgarden]], in my opinion, it makes sense to start with "alternative rock", since it is much more generic than the other two genres, and a widely-held Wikipedia guideline seems to be "aim for generality". What do other people think? [[User:Y2kcrazyjoker4|Y2kcrazyjoker4]] ([[User talk:Y2kcrazyjoker4|talk]]) 17:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC) |
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::The only reason I say that it is more fair is because, for example, one person may come along and say that a group is predominantly more hard rock, while another may say that the group is alternative rock. Having a standard that goes by alphabetical order prevents that argument from ever having to take place.[[User:-5-|-5-]] ([[User talk:-5-|talk]]) 17:51, 20 May 2009 (UTC) |
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:::the very best idea is to remove the genre field altogether - but meanwhile musical careers are just too varied for a "one size fits all" approach to questions like this. you can use the talk page of the given article to reach consensus among the editors involved with it and then maintain that style on that page; and let other editors do the same on other articles. [[User:Sssoul|Sssoul]] ([[User talk:Sssoul|talk]]) 18:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC) |
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::::''"the very best idea is to remove the genre field altogether"'' - not this stuff again. Please. [[User:Netrat|Netrat]] ([[User talk:Netrat|talk]]) 14:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::::Is it just me, or is country music the only genre that isn't prone to edit warring over what subgenre it falls under? I've ''never'' seen anyone edit war over what subgenre a country act is. Then again, nobody ever touches the country music articles anyway, so… <span style="color:green">Ten Pound Hammer</span>, his otters and a clue-bat • <sup>([[Special:Contributions/TenPoundHammer|Many otters]] • [[:User talk:TenPoundHammer|One bat]] • [[User:TenPoundHammer|One hammer]])</sup> 19:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::/me snickers loudly. [[User:Wiki_alf|Alf]] <sup><font color="green">[[User_talk:Wiki_alf|melmac]]</font></sup> 19:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::That was a rather unsubtle hint, Alf. <span style="color:green">Ten Pound Hammer</span>, his otters and a clue-bat • <sup>([[Special:Contributions/TenPoundHammer|Many otters]] • [[:User talk:TenPoundHammer|One bat]] • [[User:TenPoundHammer|One hammer]])</sup> 20:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC) |
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::::Removing the field would solve many problems but deletion may not be the best approach to problem solving. Personally, I think that there should be one genre that is fairly broad, and as close to universally acceptable as possible in the infobox and then expanded upon in the body of the article. I do realize though that I am in the minority of that opinion. I very much agree with Sssoul in that editors of different bands' pages should reach their own conclusions and consensus but a good compromise is that the first entry is the broad genre then an alphabetic list of the others. <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:J04n|J04n]]([[User talk:J04n|talk page]])</font> 11:02, 21 May 2009 (UTC) |
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== "influenced by" & "influenced" labels? == |
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I'd love to see these ones added (the Comedian Infobox has them). They'd be particularly useful for bands, I think, but also for other types. Thanks. --[[User:Tyranny Sue|Tyranny Sue]] ([[User talk:Tyranny Sue|talk]]) 15:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC) |
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:That can end up being a opinion field and craves citations in order to support the content. There is already too amny field like that in the box. "Influences" content can usually be found (with refs hopefuly) in the main body of the article. And that's where that sort of information should stay. [[User:156.34.142.110|The Real Libs]]-[[User talk:Wiki libs|speak politely]] 15:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC) |
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::100% agreement w/ Libs. That type of info needs to be in the article body, where it can be ref'd & contextualized. Totally inappropriate to an infobox. Remember, an infobox is merely a summary of basic details. It isn't the entire article in bullet-point form. In fact this was discussed last year (see archive 4). IMO it ought to be removed from the comedian box as well. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 18:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC) |
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:::Hate to pile on but agree with the dissenting comments, would make the infoboxes unmanageable. Genre wars would pale in comparison. <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:J04n|J04n]]([[User talk:J04n|talk page]])</font> 19:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC) |
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::::I, on the other hand, like the idea of having an influenced/influences section--[[User:Feeling free|Feeling free]] ([[User talk:Feeling free|talk]]) 22:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::I might like to know my favorite artists' stance on organized religion, but there's still no way that's appropriate information for an infobox. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 00:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::Ok, no worries. I can live without it. (Didn't realise so many people hate the idea!)--[[User:Tyranny Sue|Tyranny Sue]] ([[User talk:Tyranny Sue|talk]]) 13:53, 23 June 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::Ah c'mon ya dry fuckers please it'll be great. We could have rules like a minimum of ten acts in both labels. Can't we just at least try it for a while? --[[User:Feeling free|Feeling free]] ([[User talk:Feeling free|talk]]) 00:52, 23 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::::[[WP:SNOWBALL|No fracking way]]. And please try to stay [[WP:CIVIL|civil]]. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 04:34, 23 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::::: did not mean "Dry fuckers" in an offensive way. --[[User:Feeling free|Feeling free]] ([[User talk:Feeling free|talk]]) 02:13, 24 August 2009 (UTC) |
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== Years active == |
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What's the correct way of writing the date range when it's a range that comes up to the present? The Template:Infobox Musical Artist page says i.e. 2005–present, but [[Wikipedia:DATE#Other_date_ranges]] says "The form ''since 1996'' should be used in favor of 1996–present in article text and infoboxes." Can someone help clarify this?[[User:-5-|-5-]] ([[User talk:-5-|talk]]) 04:59, 28 June 2009 (UTC) |
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::Anyone?[[User:-5-|-5-]] ([[User talk:-5-|talk]]) 19:44, 5 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::Since there are conflicting guidelines I would say that consensus on the talk page for an individual article should suffice. <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:J04n|J04n]]([[User talk:J04n|talk page]])</font> 21:07, 5 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::::I'm now seeing this pop up in a few articles - I think we should just stick with the 2000-present style. Keep it consistent. Mainly for the reason that if you're writing "Since 2000", what if the band takes a notable hiatus? "Since 2000, except 2003-2006, but they're back now", okay that's exagerrated, but I just think it should be kept as simple as possible. Also, chronologically, 2000 should technically be listed first, since that's the beginning. Writing "Since" would also become confusing when a band folds, what do you write then? 2000-2009? Same as the 2000-present format! :) [[User:Kiac|<font color="green">k.i.a.c</font>]] <small><font color="black">([[User talk:Kiac|talktome]] - [[Special:Contributions/Kiac|contribs]])</font></small> 07:13, 9 July 2009 (UTC) |
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Can we have some more opinions on this, i see it as pointless for people to be going around changing it to "Since 2000", and then being reverted. We need something concrete. [[User:Kiac|<font color="green">k.i.a.c</font>]] <small><font color="black">([[User talk:Kiac|talktome]] - [[Special:Contributions/Kiac|contribs]])</font></small> 05:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:I'm all for keeping it in the "2000–present" format. As Kiac pointed above, we'd run into trouble when an act takes hiatuses (how would we even format that? "2000–2005, and then since 2007"?). It's best to keep it as it is. — '''''[[User:Explicit|<font color="800000">Σ</font>]]'''''<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User talk:Explicit|<font color="8D0000">xplicit</font>]]</span> 05:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::I've got no problem with the status quo when it comes to this, and it doesn't seem like anyone else does either. I think we can [[WP:IAR|ignore]] [[WP:DATE]] on this one. As long as our example template says "xxxx–present", I think that's what people are going to follow. I've never run into any issues with it. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 05:27, 2 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:I like 1996–present format better. [[User:Netrat|Netrat]] ([[User talk:Netrat|talk]]) 14:00, 2 August 2009 (UTC) |
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== More parameters == |
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Any particular reason why this template doesn't include parameters that are included in [[Template:Infobox Person]]? I think the following parameters would be appropriate: |
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<pre> |
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|birth_place = |
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|death_place = |
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|death_cause = |
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|nationality = |
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|ethnicity = |
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|citizenship = |
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|other_names = |
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|known_for = |
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|education = |
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|alma_mater = |
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|religion = |
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|spouse = |
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|partner = |
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|children = |
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|parents = |
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</pre> |
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And perhaps a few more. [[User:However whatever|However whatever]] ([[User talk:However whatever|talk]]) 19:34, 27 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:Most of those are cruft parameters that add nothing useful to a concise summation of "who is this person and why are they notable", particlarly with regard to a musical artist. If the person is primarily notable as a musician, then the infobox should focus on details pertinent to their career as a musician. Alma matter, religion, etc. have little to nothing to do with this. Please browse through this page and its archives for numerous discussions regarding suggestions to add some of these fields; all have been roundly rejected. {{tl|Infobox person}} is meant to apply to ''any'' person, hence it includes a wide variety of fields that might be useful for summarizing that person's notability. This template is specialized for musical artists, hence it ignores fields that are not pertinent to a person's career as a musical artist. Not every template needs the same fields. If they did, then we might as well delete all specialized templates and all work off of {{tl|Infobox person}}. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 21:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::''…we might as well delete all specialized templates and all work off of Infobox person'' - Not quite, though a large number of templates do need merging into that parent. However, the above are not "cruft". Jim Morrison's resting place is notable, as are Baaba Maal's ethnicity (currently shoe-horned into 'origin'), Cliff Richard's religion and Robert Fripp's spouse. Generic parameters such as the above should be included in most, if not all, biographical infoboxes. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 21:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::Agree with IllaZilla. The examples provided by Pigsonthewing are exceptions not the rule and should be included in the text not the infobox. We should be discussing removing fields not adding. <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:J04n|J04n]]([[User talk:J04n|talk page]])</font> 22:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::::Hurray!!!! an adding more fields debate. Can we add favourite candy and favourite constellation too? How 'bout shoe size, hair colour and height? Weee all stuff that has doesn't relate to music and all stuff that should be detailed, with references, in the article main body. Yet again, the urge to turn the musician template into a Tiger Beat bio-box boggles the mind. 22:06, 27 July 2009 (UTC) {{unsigned|Wiki libs}} |
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:::::However & Andy, please keep in mind that an infobox is meant to be a ''concise introduction'' to an article's subject. It serves as a brief list of basic details. It is not ''the entire article crammed into a box in bullet-point form''. Think of it like a baseball card: baseball cards are a summation of a baseball player's details, but ''only as they relate to baseball''. A baseball card wouldn't tell you a person's religion, spouse, etc. because for 99% of players those facts have nothing to do with their baseball career. So it is with specialized biographical infoboxes. This is the Musical Artist infobox, so it sticks only to facts that relate to the person's career as a musical artist. If we added every possible field that some editors think should be included then we'd have an infobox that runs the entire length of the article. Remember, just because a fact is in the article doesn't mean that it needs to be in the infobox, nor is the omission of these fields in any way suggesting that the information isn't relevant; it is, and it can easily be explained in the article body. In fact, a good chunk of the stuff you're wanting to add (nationality, ethnicity, citizenship, other names, known for) ought to be right there in the opening sentence. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 03:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::Thank you, but I'm already aware that "an infobox is meant to be a ''concise introduction'' to an article's subject" and my comments here and elsewhere neither suggest otherwise nor propose "we added every possible field that some editors think should be included", so please avoid [[straw man argument]]s. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 17:06, 28 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::Andy, if your contention is that these fields aren't cruft I don't believe that you made a convincing argument. As I brought up previously, the examples that you provided are exceptions and not the rule and they still don't contribute to the notability of the artists. Does that fact that she is married to [[Ritchie Blackmore]] make [[Candice Night]] notable? Probably. But [[Cher]] is notable with or without having relationships with [[Greg Allman]], [[Richie Sambora]] and [[Gene Simmons]] but if these fields are added they will all be in her infobox. If there is a field, folks are going to want to populate it (see the discussion above on voice type) and extraneous info, in my opinion, makes Wikipedia less of an encyclopedia and more of a fansite. <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:J04n|J04n]]([[User talk:J04n|talk page]])</font> 18:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::: Since when did everything in an infobox have to ''contribute'' to the notability of the subject? Problems such as those you hypothesise should be dealt with by writing clear guidance and working towards consensus, not by limiting technical functionality. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 19:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::::From [[Template:Infobox Biography#Parameters]]: "Only use those parameters that describe why the person is notable". Plus "If the field is relevant to very few articles, it should probably not be included at all" from [[Wikipedia:Infobox templates#General advice|the infobox Manual of Style]]. Taking these two statements together, in my opinion, supports not including a field in an infobox that does not contribute to the notability of the artist. <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:J04n|J04n]]([[User talk:J04n|talk page]])</font> 19:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC) |
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::: Jim Morrison's resting place is a very good bad example. Let's ignore the controversies whether he is actually dead or buried somewhere else — and that he is not famous for his resting place but vice versa. The fact that he and maybe a few dozens of musicians have a "notable" grave means that 99.99...% of musicians don't. Having it in the infobox just means people would add it to other musicians just for completeness. [[User:Lars T.|Lars T.]] ([[User talk:Lars T.|talk]]) 23:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::: A near-perfect example of a [[slippery slope]] fallacy. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 00:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::I don't mean to sound rude, but it seems you're dismissing every argument that doesn't fit your criteria. [[WP:CON|Consensus]] has shown that these additional fields are not needed nor desired. If you have any actual arguments to adding these fields besides the casual exception, we'd like your see your reasoning. — '''''[[User:Explicit|<font color="800000">Σ</font>]]'''''<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User talk:Explicit|<font color="8D0000">xplicit</font>]]</span> 00:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::: Thank you for not meaning to sound rude. I could, of course, point out that you and others are dismissing every argument which does not fit your criteria, however, I can see that there is currently no consensus either way (''not'' consensus for the status quo, as you claim), so I'll drop the matter for now, and trust that, in time, the advantages of standardising biographical infoboxes, and of these parameters in particular, becomes more widely appreciated. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 19:59, 2 August 2009 (UTC) |
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Agree with [[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]], these are cruft parameters and not necessary or wanted in this template. Even in [[Template:Infobox Person]] I think some if not all of those should be removed. [[User:Garion96|Garion96]] [[User talk:Garion96|(talk)]] 08:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC) |
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== 'Backgound' problems and possible slution == |
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{{unresolved}} |
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I have recently come across a number of instances of this template, where the background parameter was either missing, or set to an inappropriate value, such as "''jazz trumpeter''". |
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Perhaps someone with more template coding skills than I, would like to add logic which either causes, in such cases, a prominent warning on the page (such as found when using {{Tl|Prod}} without ''subst''ing), or that adds a hidden maintenance category, such as, say "''Artist infoboxes needing background parameter fixes''", which could be regularly patrolled? [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 20:07, 2 August 2009 (UTC) |
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: The sub-template {{tl|Infobox Musical artist/color}} would be the place to handle that logic. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 13:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC) |
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Can anyone help, please? The coding is beyond me. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 12:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC) |
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== Date range style in infoboxes == |
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(Copied over from [[Wikipedia:Help desk#Date range style in infoboxes]] on advice there) [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Other date ranges]] specifically states that "The form since 1996 should be used in favor of 1996–present in article text and infoboxes.", although earlier in the same paragraph it is stated that "the form 1996– (with no date after the en-dash)... is preferred in infoboxes". In addition to this, [[Template:Infobox Musical artist#Years_active]] uses the example of "1993–2004, 2005–present", strongly suggesting that the "–present" form should be used (as indeed it is in most if not all musical artist articles I have seen). So which is correct, and should these project pages not be made clearer in order to avoid this confusion? [[User:U-Mos|U-Mos]] ([[User talk:U-Mos|talk]]) 17:12, 8 August 2009 (UTC) |
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: I prefer ''since 1996'' in almost all cases, but I could see making an exception for infoboxes, or lists where there is a desire to "dash-align" a sequence of date ranges. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] ([[User talk:Plastikspork|talk]]) 17:47, 8 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::This issue was actually discussed [[Template talk:Infobox Musical artist#Years active|above]] and it seems that people are in favor of the "xxxx–present" format. — '''''[[User:Explicit|<font color="800000">Σ</font>]]'''''<span style="font-variant:small-caps;">[[User talk:Explicit|<font color="8D0000">xplicit</font>]]</span> 19:17, 8 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:::Ooops, apologies for not checking above. So would it be worthwhile highlighting the contradiction at the talk page for the MOS page and hopefully getting it altered there? [[User:U-Mos|U-Mos]] ([[User talk:U-Mos|talk]]) 19:28, 8 August 2009 (UTC) |
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== Years Active == |
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I know this is going to cause a lot of problems, but the way it is presented in documentation, years active should be presented as "2005–present". This needs to be changed per [[WP:OTHERDATE]] as "the form ''since 1996'' should be used in favor of ''1996–present'' in article text and infoboxes". [[User:Bovineboy2008|<small>BOVINEBOY</small>'''2008''']] 19:23, 11 August 2009 (UTC) |
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: This has been discussed before, see directly above. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] ([[User talk:Plastikspork|talk]]) 19:26, 11 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::I know it has been discussed before, but I disagree. The reasoning brought before have been for status quo and for aesthetic reason. That is ridiculous. Why should this infobox be exempt from a Wiki-wide policy. It has been asked to contest it there, but what would be easier, changing the policy and changing possibly hundreds of thousands of articles, or changing it here and changing a few. I will argue this unless there is a good reason brought up, that is not because "it looks better" or "because it always has been". [[User:Bovineboy2008|<small>BOVINEBOY</small>'''2008''']] 19:35, 11 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:::[[WP:OTHERDATE]] is not policy, it's part of the [[WP:MOS|manual of style]]. And as it says right at the top of the page, "[[Wikipedia:Use common sense|Use common sense]] in applying it; it will have [[WP:IAR|occasional exceptions]]." In the hundreds of musical artist article's I've read on Wikipedia, I've ''never'' seen one that uses the form "since xxxx". Not once. Given the discussions we've already had, I think we have a clear case where this particular provision of the MoS does not work well in this area of Wikipedia. Therefore we have good reason to ignore it. The status quo simply illustrates that "xxxx–present" is the standard way of formatting this info in the world of music. (Also, changing the documentation for this template would affect way more than "a few" articles. There are [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Biography (musicians) articles by quality statistics|over 53,000]] articles tagged by [[WP:MUSICIANS]].) --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 21:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::::This isn't IAR, it isn't improving or maintaining. And these aren't good reasons. Shouldn't we be consistent through wikipedia when it comes to style? This isn't the music industry. We should be consistent with all the articles already existent. Just because you have "never" seen it being used doesn't mean it isn't better. I think it is explained pretty well in the manual of style why xxxx-present shouldn't be used and no points have been brought up that contest the reasoning. I realize a MoS isn't truly a policy, but when it can be followed it should. (And how many articles have date ranges extending to now? 53,000 plus so many more.) [[User:Bovineboy2008|<small>BOVINEBOY</small>'''2008''']] 21:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::Okay, now we have three sections on the same subject, on this page. The other two discuss the fact that MOS gives two contradictory instructions, and points out that while our WikiProject has selected and adopted one of the two, that may not be the ideal solution. (This is assuming that we agree "2000-" and "2000-present" are the same thing; I don't believe that has been challenged.) This particular section, so far, has just quoted one instruction and ignored the other, as though it weren't there. Since MOS contradicts itself, it seems futile to complain that we aren't following MOS. We would be equally following / not following it if we were to take its other recommendation. By the way, count me in among those preferring the "2000-present" format. Despite what MOS identifies as "the problem", all forms of the date range imply the same thing. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 00:41, 12 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::Wow, I totally over read that. *As I look away embarrassed* Something should be done about this at the MoS. I never preferred the "since xxxx" style, but I always went by the definitive statement at the end of the section. Something should be done about this at MoS. I think I will start up something there. [[User:Bovineboy2008|<small>BOVINEBOY</small>'''2008''']] 00:46, 12 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::Some people think this particular WikiProject is resistant to change (and it is, but with good reason, as just about any proposal one could come up with has been discussed extensively in the past); I think you will find getting something changed at MOS will be twice as hard, and for the same reason. But it may get you somewhere to point out that the current wording is contractictory, and you could also point them to the fact that the "2000-present" format is pretty much universal in music article infoboxes. Best of luck! --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 01:07, 12 August 2009 (UTC) |
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The guideline has just been changed. The guideline now says "The form "since 1996" should be used in article text while the form "1996–present" is preferred in infoboxes." Just for your info! [[User:Bovineboy2008|<small>BOVINEBOY</small>]][[User talk:Bovineboy2008|'''2008''']] [[Special:Contributions/Bovineboy2008|:)]] 13:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:Guess that solves the issue. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 15:24, 22 August 2009 (UTC) |
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== Spouse(s) == |
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I think Spouse(s) should be added to the musical artist template. [[User:ScarTissueBloodBlister|ScarTissueBloodBlister]] ([[User talk:ScarTissueBloodBlister|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:I've just noticed now that others have mentioned this before. I think it makes sense to have it because in regular (non-musicians) infoboxes they have spouse(s) so I don't see what the difference is. [[User:ScarTissueBloodBlister|ScarTissueBloodBlister]] ([[User talk:ScarTissueBloodBlister|talk]]) 16:21, 14 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::If you've seen it mentioned before, then you've also seen compelling arguments for not having it. In the very few cases where the spouse is ''really'' important to the artist's career ([[Sonny and Cher]] to [[Cher]], for example), it can be in the body of the article. Creation of an infobox field is only appropriate where it could be correctly used in a significant percentage of articles that use the template. This field would be misused if created. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 18:43, 14 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:::... the [[Template:Infobox_Playboy_Playmate|Playmate infobox]] includes measurements. [[User:Sssoul|Sssoul]] ([[User talk:Sssoul|talk]]) 16:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::::My reasoning for being against this can be found above under 'More parameters' <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:J04n|J04n]]([[User talk:J04n|talk page]])</font> 18:14, 14 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::Hurray!!!! an adding more fields debate. Can we add favourite candy and favourite constellation too? How 'bout shoe size, hair colour and height? Weee all stuff that has doesn't relate to music and all stuff that should be detailed, with references, in the article main body. [[User:156.34.142.110|The Real Libs]]-[[User talk:Wiki libs|speak politely]] 18:29, 14 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::Well in the case of [[Courtney Love]] and [[Kurt Cobain]] I feel like having spouse in the infobox is relevant. [[User:ScarTissueBloodBlister|ScarTissueBloodBlister]] ([[User talk:ScarTissueBloodBlister|talk]]) 20:13, 14 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::This has been discussed & shot down before. Spouse is only relevant to a given artist's career as a musician in probably 1-2% of all cases, hence it doesn't need to be added to the infobox. Since this is an infobox for musical artists, we stick to parameters that are immediately relevant to their career as a musical artist. In the rare case where their spouse is relevant to their career (ie. Sonny & Cher, John & Yoko, Kurt & Courtney, [[Thurston Moore]] & [[Kim Gordon]]), it can quite easily be mentioned in the lead. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 21:48, 14 August 2009 (UTC) |
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I added the Spouse parameter to the template not realising that there was discussion here. It has been reverted. I am not too bothered, an IP requested it [[Talk:Jay-Z#Marriage_to_Beyonce|for Jay-Z]] which is probably one of the 1-2% of all cases where it is relevant - as he has made music with his wife Beyonce. I think the Spouse field should be there, but if it is not relevant not included for an artist on a case-by-case basis, with some documentation on the template page explaining that. The best of both worlds. Incidentally, I always forget [[Hugh Jackman]]'s wife's name (she is in the press a little bit where I live) and it is handy to have it in the Infobox.--[[User:Commander Keane|Commander Keane]] ([[User talk:Commander Keane|talk]]) 08:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC) |
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:Please wait for consensus before adding anything. The infobox is bloated already. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 09:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC) |
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::as noted above, in the rare cases where the spouse's name is relevant, it can/should be in the lead. having an optional "spouse" field in the infobox would mean drive-by editors would be adding it willy-nilly all over the place regardless of how much documentation there is saying not to do that. [[User:Sssoul|Sssoul]] ([[User talk:Sssoul|talk]]) 10:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC) |
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::: I agree, it's very rarely relevant. [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 19:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC) |
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== New York City boroughs == |
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I have a question regarding musical artists (especially rappers) from [[New York City]]. Should boroughs be excluded from the infobox born/origin/died fields? I feel that strictly following the "City, State, Country" format is enough; we can explain the borough in the body. [[User:Andrewlp1991|Andrewlp1991]] ([[User talk:Andrewlp1991|talk]]) 23:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:I agree. City & state are enough for the infobox. Borough is best left to the main text. Just like most major cities have various incorporated suburbs that aren't separate cities. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 00:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC) |
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== img_capt bug == |
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if img_capt ends with a "]", a loose "]" is shown on the right of the image <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Patiferoolz|Patiferoolz]] ([[User talk:Patiferoolz|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Patiferoolz|contribs]]) 13:49, 25 August 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Use for Orchestras == |
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See, for instance, [[Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra]], where this template is used. The instructions for this template say that "Current members" should be unannotated, but a full list of "current members" is both undesirable and unfeasible for large ensembles. Should we just leave it out for such ensembles, or is it acceptable to list only certain members and explain what their role is? If the former, should we add a new field for "leadership" or some such? [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:LtPowers|T]]</small></small></sup> 18:21, 30 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:I suspect the template is rarely used for listing all members of a large orchestra, therefore we should be careful about changing the template to accomodate this concern, if it impacts the more common usage. For example, adding a "leadership" field would probably lead to disputes as to who is to be declared the leader of a rock group. Perhaps a field called "conductor" or "director" would not be abused, but you can also add this person and his role in the existing members field, as is currently done in the article you mentioned. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 22:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC) |
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::It should be possible to arrange that a "leader" or "conductor" field only displays if <code>background</code> is set to "classical_ensemble" (and perhaps"temporary"). [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 23:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC) |
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:Perhaps the solution should be a new infobox? I'm not an expert in classical music by any means, but how does this look? <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:J04n|J04n]]([[User talk:J04n|talk page]])</font> 00:34, 7 September 2009 (UTC) |
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<nowiki>{{Infobox classical ensemble </nowiki> |
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| Name = |
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| Img = |
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| Img_alt = |
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| Img_capt = |
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| Img_size = |
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| Landscape = |
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| Background = probably would only need one background |
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| City = |
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| Primary venue = |
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| Years_active = <!-- {{Start date|YYYY}}–YYYY --> |
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| URL = |
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| Conductor = |
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| First violin = |
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| Principal trombone = |
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| Principal trumpet = |
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| Principal oboe = |
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| Notable past members= |
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}} |
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<includeonly></includeonly> |
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← I think it far better to add conditional functionality to this template, than to split off another, thereby increasing the overall maintenance overhead. [[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]] (User:Pigsonthewing); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]] 00:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC) |
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== Need to update examples to reflect modern linking guidelines == |
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I'm sure it's no secret that popular music articles, many of which contain references to guitars, are badly [[WP:overlink|overlinked]]. Common term and generalised linking is now not the normal practice, and need specific rationale. This includes the linking of the general common terms such as "guitar", "singer", "songwriter", "author", "poet", "activist", whether in main text or infobox. |
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A variety of reasons has been given for the retention of links in infoboxes, such as: |
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*"that's the way it's done everywhere" (I note that bad grammar can be found everywhere); |
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*"saves linking in the main text if it's linked in the infobox" (if it's not good link in the main text, why in the infobox?); and |
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*"we don't want to have to change hundreds of thousand of articles" (so nothing can ever change on a wiki, even through gradualist gnoming?) |
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There is also a sense that infoboxes should be carpeted blue for aesthetic reasons: the last is clearly an abuse of wikilinking, which loses its effect if every word is blue. Infoboxes are, in any case, a mixture of black and blue, and always will be. The question becomes to what extent the useful links should stand out rather than being swamped. |
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A related issue is the style-guide rule discouraging adjacent links, and encouraging ''specific'' linking. "Guitar", for example, would be much better unlinked at the top, and if the artist played a certain ''type'' of guitar, [[Guitar#Types of guitars]] is the better target, in the appropriate section. This is what would help the readers, not a formulaic carpet-bombing of infoboxes with double square brackets. Times have changed. |
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Apart from going against [[WP:LINK]], this practice is diluting the many important, valuable links in popular culture articles. Among these are, of course, the titles of songs, albums and other artists. These should not be diluted by links that are not useful to an understanding of the topic, and that all English-speakers should know the definition of. (I have unlinked "roses", "divorce", "suicide", and many other dictionary words, as well as the seemingly formulaic "singer", "musician", "artist", "activist", etc.). |
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I ask two things: |
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#that editors take the opportunity to support the cleaning up of the "sea of blue" problem to make wikilinking in popular-culture articles work a lot better for our readers; |
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#that the examples be updated to comply with [[WP:LINKING]]: the principle is to minimise linking so that useful links stand out rather than being swamped by surrounding blue. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 04:17, 6 September 2009 (UTC) |
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:::Seems like a trivial issue. The infobox looks fine as is. The formatting is OK. There are probably some people who actually find the links useful. It isn't up to us to decide. It can't be a a new rule for just one field. If we are going to do this then we will have to remove the links from every single word inside the infobox. Otherwise no two infoboxes will look alike because no two editors will clean them up the same way. Is anyone here in favour of removing every single linked word from the box? And, if so, is anyone where willing to go through and clean up every single blue link in every single infobox? It is a petty issue. [[User:156.34.142.110|The Real Libs]]-[[User talk:Wiki libs|speak politely]] 04:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC) |
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::::I wouldn't have raised it if it were trivial, and my posts have pointed out the issues and the violation of [[WP:LINKING]]. At the very least, a note will be necessary adjacent to the examples overleaf pointing out the guideline that common terms are not usually linked. And let us remember that the examples are only examples: they do not dictate. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 06:43, 6 September 2009 (UTC) |
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::::The argument "somebody will find it useful" isn't quite to the point. The question is more complex than that, it helps to have webmaster experience with large knowledgebases to realize the pragmatics — the problems overlinking causes. The basic issues are: 1) Many links aren't used at all, 2) All links require editorial maintenance, and 3) Any links get in the way of readers who don't need them — which is nearly everyone. We're going for the greatest good for the greatest number of readers. That means selecting only a handful of links that most have something really exceptional and substantial to contribute to the topic. In some cases, that may mean no links at all! Tony mentions below a link to a comment I made specifically about duplicate links, but here's a more general discussion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Piano_non_troppo#How_links_don.27t_work How links don't work]. Regards, [[User:Piano non troppo|Piano non troppo]] ([[User talk:Piano non troppo|talk]]) 02:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC) |
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::Draw ups some definitions (like, "unlink guitar" "link stratocaster" etc and we can automate easily enough. ''[[User:Rich Farmbrough|Rich]] [[User talk:Rich Farmbrough|Farmbrough]]'', 11:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC). |
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::I look at [[WP:LINKING]] as a guideline for main article content, rather than the infobox. I agree with Real Libs when he says most links may be useful to someone, and I've often looked at the infobox as a collection of links, and don't find it a problem, or contrary to the attempts to control overlinking in the article's main body. I do agree some terms like "album" don't need to be highlighted (as they often are), and I've often seen instrument lists going through unlinking and relinking (not only in the infobox, but in a "personnel" section), and it's clear both sides believe they are following guidelines. (And perhaps they are; we may have contradictory instructions.) Rich's suggestion about drawing up a guide of what to link regarding instruments, would be a big help, and I would like to see it applied to personnel lists too. When I've made personnel lists, I avoid linking the word "vocals" because I find that redundant, but others have disagreed (and also debated where the link should point to), so maybe we could have a decision about that too. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 23:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC) |
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:::Knight, I thought infoboxes were meant to be ''part'' of the articles they serve—either entrees to set the big picture for a reader, or (in what is probably a very small proportion of cases) quick reference points for fly-by readers. I don't think a lot of other editors have seen a fence drawn around infoboxes to exempt them from the project's linking guidelines and practices. I see, for example, that the dates in the example were unlinked after date-autoformatting was deprecated; why this should have been the case, while simple words such as "piano", "guitar", "musician", "singer" et al. remain linked, is beyond me. Linking is not for providing detached, out of the context wormholes; nor is it for providing blue doorbells to press on every occasion a term pops up, ''just'' in case a reader has arrived half-way through or failed to use a link on the term's first appearance, or has forgotten where it was. The editorial decisions behind wikilinking are often subtle and require good judgment to balance the dilutionary effect of overlinking with the utility that links can bring when used judiciously. |
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:::We need to lose this carpet-bombing approach to linking. Infoboxes for popular-culture articles are now looking decidedly old-fashioned in this respect, when the rest of the project (at least in the English WP, sadly not some of the others) has accepted the rationing of blue as a way of ''strengthening'' wikilinking. Underneath, bubbling away, is our suspicion that readers rarely click links anyway—certainly not as much as WP editors think they might—and robust research findings that too much choice turns off the consumer. |
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:::For example, linking two adjacent geographical terms ([[Liverpool]], [[England]]) is excessive: let's suppose a reader bothers to work out that they are two separate links ([[WP:LINKING]] says to try to avoid adjacent linking for this very reason); they click on [[Liverpool]] and will find [[England]] in context in the opening sentence (although "England", if you speak English—a prerequisite for consulting the English WP, is kind of a no-brainer, don't you think?). I put it to you that the first item is far more likely to be clicked on (although still not very likely) if it stands alone. |
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:::Who doesn't know where [[New York City]] is? Why it should be linked or be followed by that obscure entity, the [[United States]]. Are our readers idiots? Even the seven-year-old grade-school kid knows, or if not will learn pretty quickly. Judgment and moderation, please, folks, not a slavish formula. We owe it to our readers. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 01:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC) |
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:::PS An interesting [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3ALinking&diff=309707043&oldid=309683542 webmaster's perspective] was expressed here only a couple of weeks ago. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 01:21, 7 September 2009 (UTC) |
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::::Be all that as it may, I still don't think that the overlink prevention guidelines were meant to apply to infoboxes. Blue links can be an eyesore in text that is meant to be read in paragraph form, but to me, they look okay in a box that indexes key words and phrases. That's just my opinion, but I've presumed it's how most people see it, and have never read objections to infobox links before. The "webmaster's perspective" appears to be about links in paragraphs as well; the editor said "it jars my reading experience". I'm not trying to argue about the pros and cons of what you're proposing, so much as to suggest links in boxes may not be perceived by others as being a big problem. Just wondering, what do you think about boxes of links to other articles at the bottom of some pages? Or disambiguation pages, or category pages? These are also large collections of blue links, and I don't think they are regarded as improper for Wikipedia, or in violation of guidelines about overlink. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 02:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC) |
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:::This original note was already posted at wp:guitar and I have commented there but will short post here. I agree with Libs' original point that it is a minor issue and seems like a lot a work for one or two people to try and take on for themselves. But would not be against it if it wre something that could be automated. But I also agree that if we can't just unlink a few words based on a person's pov over what is "common" and what isn't. If we are to do it we need to do it for every single linked word inside the box. And that means removing the links from piped labels. My concern is that if we do this can an automated function understand a piped link and re-format it correctly? [[User:Fair Deal|Fair Deal]] ([[User talk:Fair Deal|talk]]) 02:57, 7 September 2009 (UTC) |
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In 2009, we are ''still'' linking "musician", "singer", etc? This is beyond any grey area in terms of common items. One of the significant issues is that the linking of these items in so prominent a location as an infobox encourages editors to link them everywhere. And nowadays, we try to discourage the linking of geographical entities that are commonplace to all English-speakers but those in mental asylums: New York City, USA, Los Angeles, UK, etc. But it's worse than that: infoboxes with carpet-blue encourage the linking of adjacent terms, and discourage the linking of specific article sections or daughter articles (both are aspects of [[WP:LINKING]]). |
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By the way, the MoS says to avoid "US''A''" as distinctly old-fashioned. Many American writers would also expect it to be spelled out in that context: "United States". I usually change this when I see it. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 15:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC) |
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== Classical artists == |
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Regarding the recent insertion and revert of the bolded word in the following: "Infobox musical artist is the standard infobox for '''non-classical''' musician articles...", I believe that in the past, the classical music WikiProject objected to our infobox being used for ''composers'', which may be why this change was attempted, as a mis-remembering of earlier discussions. If there was a different reason for this change, it should be explained here. Just a comment from an uninvolved editor. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 19:43, 16 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:One of the potential drawbacks of infoboxes is that they can end up being used in a broader range of topics than they were designed for. Can you provide an example or two of the use of this infobox for a classical composer? [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 02:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::The question is whether the infobox is to be used for classical music ''muscicans'', not composers. There are specific directives to not use it for composers and opera singers, and only a vague notice that it was (in someone's opinion) not designed for classical musicians. Actually, the fact that there is a "voice type" field suggests that some editors ''have'' tried to make the template more compatible with classical music, but since the template's use for opera singers is explicity discouraged, I'm not disagreeing with the field's removal. Aside from that, is there anything specific about the infobox that makes it unacceptable for classical musicians? Especially since there are many "crossover" musicians who play both pop and classical music. As explained in the various discussions below, there is no reason to declare a consensus for excluding the template for classical musicians, and I agree with the suggestion to remove the exclusion notice from the instructions. So I'm taking it out again. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 11:26, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:::I see this was just reverted back in. Unless there's some really pressing reason for this then it should be removed again, as our template documentation is not the correct place to document the classical music project's style guidelines. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 10:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]]: '' "The question is whether the infobox is to be used for classical music ''muscicans'', not composers. There are specific directives to not use it for composers and opera singers, and only a vague notice that it was (in someone's opinion) not designed for classical musicians."'' This is wrong. There ''are'' detail guidelines covering classical musicians as well as opera singers and composers, and for much the same reasons. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 00:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::: You're not helping your case by edit warring. Why, again, must this template now start carrying disclaimers every time some random WikiProject decides to opt out of using infoboxes? That's why your own MoS is for. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 09:23, 20 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::I'm not sure that's an accurate characterization of the phrase's purpose. The fact is that the infobox as it stands now is much more suited for popular musicians than for classical musicians. I see no problem with calling that out in the infobox's instructions. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:LtPowers|T]]</small></small></sup> 14:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::Kleinzach left a note on my user talk page with a link to where there the rule he refers to is stated: [[WP:WikiProject Classical music#Biographical infoboxes]]. The other rule that I referred to (which advises against usage for opera composers and opera singers only) is at: [[WP:WikiProject Opera#Infoboxes]]. Note that these are links to other WikiProjects; this template properly belongs to [[WP:WikiProject Musicians]], and clearly there is no concensus on this page for excluding classical musicians. The Musicians project is not just for pop musicians, it covers all types. If you look at the first link in this paragraph, it has links to other discussion pages where "proof of consensus" can be found. These pages are: Classical, Composers, and Opera Wikiprojects. Note the absence of the Musicians Wikiproject! |
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:::::If the restriction is removed from the rules for our template, as it should be, this admittedly creates a dilemma for editors working on a classical music article. The classical music Wikiproject would then advise against using an infobox, but the infobox template's instructions would not echo this, because the project that actually owns/controls the template does not agree. The editors of that article would then have to decide which project's rules are most appropriate for the it. And that's not really a problem; we have many examples of this kind of thing at Wikipedia. As someone else said, why should our project's or template's rules have to conform to other projects, when there is no consensus at our project/template? Given this situation, the restriction MUST be removed. There IS no consensus for the restriction in THIS Wikiproject. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 14:35, 20 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::Why is this seeming like a pointless turf war? Shouldn't we all be working together? [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:LtPowers|T]]</small></small></sup> 14:39, 20 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::Concerns about following Wikipedia procedures about project template instructions, consensus, reverts, and edit warring are not pointless. But I understand what you're saying. There are two issues here, and the other issue (which isn't being discussed as much) is reaching agreement on whether or not to include one little word in the documentation. I'll start a new section asking for comment on just that issue, and hopefully the other stuff will be left behind. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 15:32, 20 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::: It's a turf war because those editors opposed to infoboxes within the domains in question are making it one. There has been no evidence presented yet that the disclaimer being warred over here is having a detrimental effect on the articles under said projects' purview; rather, someone appears to have noticed (a month after the fact) that this disclaimer was removed, and decided to war over it. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 23:32, 20 October 2009 (UTC) |
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==Opera singers== |
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I'm sorry... I'm having a doubt regarding the Infobox in case of opera singers. Shall it be used also for opera singers like tenors... sopranos... ecc?? And in this case, will Background have to be solo_singer ? Thanks. --[[User:Arancam|Arancam]] ([[User talk:Arancam|talk]]) 18:57, 18 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:Articles on classical music artists don't have infoboxes. See [[Wikipedia:OPERA#Infoboxes]]. [[User:Garion96|Garion96]] [[User talk:Garion96|(talk)]] 19:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC) |
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== Voice type revisited == |
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Going back to [[Template talk:Infobox musical artist/Archive 7#Voice type|this thread]] the usefulness of the 'voice type' field was questioned and consensus was that it was appropriate for classical singers, and rare instances when rock/pop vocalists had a 'type' backed by [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Now I see that [[WP:OPERA]] has come to the consensus that infoboxes shouldn't be used for opera singers [[WP:OPERA#Infoboxes|here]]. Taking this into account I move to have the 'voice type' field removed from the infobox. For the rare case where there is a reliably sourced type it can be in the main article. <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:J04n|J04n]]([[User talk:J04n|talk page]])</font> 23:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:I'm baffled by those projects' consensus that because this template is not ideal for non-popular music artists, that they shouldn't have infoboxes at all. As such, I'm not really sure whether we should be revising this template to be even less relevant to those projects, or if we should try to create an actual comprehensive template that they could use. [[User:LtPowers|Powers]] <sup><small><small>[[User talk:LtPowers|T]]</small></small></sup> 00:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::I support the removal of the field. Thanks! [[User:Plastikspork|Plastikspork]] [[User talk:Plastikspork|<sub style="font-size: 60%">―Œ</sub><sup style="margin-left:-3ex">(talk)</sup>]] 02:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:::I can well understand editors' distaste for infoboxes. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 02:25, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::I can understand them not wanting to use ''this'' infobox, if it doesn't work well for them, but I don't think a project should be able to declare a ban on ''all'' infoboxes in articles. Surely {{tl|Infobox person}} can work, if nothing else. Blanket-banning all infoboxes in "their" articles is just plain inappropriate. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 03:34, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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*Some people just can't see the point of infoboxes, and are sensitive to their disadvantages. That they might as a group decide on a no-infobox policy for an article, a group of articles or a whole wikiproject is completely understandable. |
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*Frankly, I think the examples provided overleaf and much copied by popular music articles are frozen in time, inflexible, and present several bad practices, among them those that breach style guidelines. But what happened when I complained? Resistance to change. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 03:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::For many years it was understood that this infobox was ''not'' designed for classical musicians. The words ''non-classical'' were removed on 31 August by [[User:Pigsonthewing|Pigsonthewing]], see '''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AInfobox_musical_artist%2Fdoc&action=historysubmit&diff=311067493&oldid=311067365 here]'''. I think they shoud be restored to avoid further misunderstandings. I also support the removal of the vocal type field, per [[User:J04n|J04n]]. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 04:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:::Oh, I definitely agree that there are bad practices in these infoboxes that could be improved (remember the brouhaha when we removed the genre field? I still think it should be removed, but I digress...), but I don't think that's reason enough to topic-ban infoboxes from articles, and I don't think a Wikiproject should have the authority to make or enforce such a declaration. But I'm not involved in editing within the field of classical music, and I'm not familiar with what their difficulties are, so I'll leave the heavy-handedness to them. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 05:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::Nor can their use be mandated. Yet some editors do go around rather forcefully insisting on the inclusion of an infobox. When told that it's repetitive—the information is all in the lead and/or the body of the text—it never does any good: the insistence returns. In my view, infoboxes, with a few exceptions, are hamfisted MacDonald's information packaging. The result is often repetition and distortion, and the sacrifice of a leading position for a large image. [[User:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">'''Tony'''</font >]] [[User talk:Tony1|<font color="darkgreen">(talk)</font >]] 06:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::Let's just accept that pages on [[Mariah Carey]] and [[Maria Callas]] are going to be different! The M Carey editors should be allowed to get on with their work uninterrupted, likewise the M Callas people. If one group opts for infoboxes and another group doesn't, that's OK! --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 07:14, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::: Of course the correct place to discuss that should not be on some arbitrary grouping of articles, which is what makes this "opt-out" so ridiculous. Would that editors found other ways to explore their idiosyncracies than by taking over random WikiProjects. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 10:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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*Just remove the parameter. It is not used and it doesn't seem likely that this template will ever be used by classical artist articles. Which I actually like, I wish many other projects would decide the same. [[User:Garion96|Garion96]] [[User talk:Garion96|(talk)]] 08:34, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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*: It'll be used eventually, as the editors responsible for this silliness move on. There's nothing which makes infoboxes inherently unsuitable for classical music articles; it's entirely a case of a group of users with the same quirks having found their way to the same part of the encyclopedia. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 10:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC) |
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*It's been a couple of days since anyone has commented and it looks like a consensus has been reached. I believe it's time to delete the field... <font face="Century Gothic">[[User:J04n|J04n]]([[User talk:J04n|talk page]])</font> 10:04, 22 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::I agree, while at the same time I'm trying to get the infobox accepted back into use for classical artists, probably (but not necessarily) including opera singers. As I pointed out elsewhere, the "instruments" field is used to specify "singer", and could easily say "singer (soprano)" for a classically trained singer with a notable voice range. I'll be proposing a change to documentation to recommend this, if and when we decide to allow this infobox to be used for opera singers. A separate field is not required. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 10:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]]: This box was never 'accepted' for classical artists, so it's disingenuous to talk about getting '' " the infobox accepted back into use for classical artists" ''. You should consider carefully whether there is a consensus for what you are proposing. A series of editors have already expressed their reservations here and below. --''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 10:51, 22 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::: There isn't actually any requirement that infoboxes are "accepted" by WikiProjects before being used. I have no idea where this meme that WikiProjects have some sort of official sanction came from, but it needs to be confronted whenever it manifests itself. [[user:thumperward|Chris Cunningham (not at work)]] - [[user talk:thumperward|talk]] 11:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::Kleinzach, if you weren't involved in other discussions on this page, I would think your statement was made without knowing what is being discussed. As has been pointed out, ''you'' yourself added the "non-classical" restriction, WITHOUT DISCUSSION, a year ago. This infobox was for all musicians up to that time. Your statement that "this infobox was never accepted for classical artists" is rubbish, and you know it, and you are calling me disingenuous? There is nothing inappropriate about my anticipating the next step "if and when" other proposals go through, as they relate to any lingering concerns about the voice type field's removal. My statement was to clarify my opinion, in case anyone is wondering why I'm in favour of removing the voice type field while arguing elsewhere in favour of using this infobox for classical musicians. Please show good faith in the opinions of others. That's what I'm doing, and I don't try to score points by putting down others, or making claims I know are not true. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 11:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::Let's get the record straight, I added my clarification on 10 March 2008, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AInfobox_musical_artist%2Fdoc&action=historysubmit&diff=197176404&oldid=196179426 here]. It remained in place (without causing any kind of controversy) until 31 August 2009. That in itself is indicative. Prior to March 2008 the box was not for '' "for all musicians" ''. It was used by some groups of editors, and not used by others.--''[[User:Kleinzach|<span style="color:#FF4500;letter-spacing:2px;">Klein</span>]][[User talk:Kleinzach|<span style="padding:0px 0px 1px 2px;color:white; background-color:#ACE1AF;letter-spacing:2px;">zach</span>]]'' 12:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::I don't know why you keep saying "let's get the record straight". As you say, you added the restriction in 2008, and there was no discussion about it on this talk page at that time, nor any time before this month. This is the first time it's being discussed here. Until the restriction was put in, the template was clearly intended for all kinds of musicians, because the template is called "musicians", and had nothing in it to indicate otherwise. It was that way for two years, prior to last year, and it is the original state of the status. Whether or not editors actually choose to use it, is irrelevant, as is the mass removal of the infobox from classical musician articles you personally did last year. Please remember that when I started this discussion, I called myself an "uninvolved editor". I started the discussion because I noticed several people already on the verge of edit warring, and not using the talk page at all to discuss it. So I openend the discussion and called for proper procedure. I also described myself as "weakly" in favour of removing the restriction, meaning I was more interested in preventing an edit war, though it's true I have been presenting arguments in favour of removing it. But have also presented the other side (as I saw it) and have been the main person asking for more comment from the other side, as I think YOUR side has been underrepresented when it comes to actually giving reasons! Since this restriction was not here originally, and since this month's discussion is the first one on the topic on this page, ''if'' no consensus were to be reached, the correct resolution would be to restore the original wording, allowing the template to be used for all kinds of musicians. That's just following procedure. I'm not predicting that will happen; we will see. I've stated that the documentation should not be changed while discussion is ongoing, and do take note that at the moment, it is in the state that you prefer. That's an action in good faith, right? Hope I've "set the record straight". --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 13:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC) |
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:::I removed it for now. If this template changes it can be put back. Although I hope it won't. If editors on classical musicians don't want to use an infobox, let them. [[User:Garion96|Garion96]] [[User talk:Garion96|(talk)]] 10:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC) |
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== Classical artists (continued) == |
== Classical artists (continued) == |
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as for specifying exactly who fits into this new category: i'd leave it as open as possible and let "local" editors decide which infobox is suitable for the particular artist they're writing about - something along the lines of "performers who make notable professional use of both voice and an instrument or instruments" [[User:Sssoul|Sssoul]] ([[User talk:Sssoul|talk]]) 06:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC) |
as for specifying exactly who fits into this new category: i'd leave it as open as possible and let "local" editors decide which infobox is suitable for the particular artist they're writing about - something along the lines of "performers who make notable professional use of both voice and an instrument or instruments" [[User:Sssoul|Sssoul]] ([[User talk:Sssoul|talk]]) 06:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC) |
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==Discography== |
== Discography == |
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I was just curious but what are the possibilities and logistics of creating some sort of link to separate discography pages? [[User:ONEder Boy|ONEder Boy]] ([[User talk:ONEder Boy|talk]]) 01:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC) |
I was just curious but what are the possibilities and logistics of creating some sort of link to separate discography pages? [[User:ONEder Boy|ONEder Boy]] ([[User talk:ONEder Boy|talk]]) 01:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC) |
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::I agree w/ Knight on this one. "Exceptional cases" seems to mean "when editors of a particular article are very passionate about keeping certain members of a group listed more prominently than others". It's true of both [[The Beatles]] and [[Nirvana (band)]], and possible some other articles. While I'm sure we can all agree that the most well-known lineups of both these bands are certainly the most ''notable'', the infobox isn't equipped to convey the idea of "highly notable vs. not-so-notable", it's only set up to convey "current vs. former", and obviously for a disbanded group all the members would be former. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 17:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC) |
::I agree w/ Knight on this one. "Exceptional cases" seems to mean "when editors of a particular article are very passionate about keeping certain members of a group listed more prominently than others". It's true of both [[The Beatles]] and [[Nirvana (band)]], and possible some other articles. While I'm sure we can all agree that the most well-known lineups of both these bands are certainly the most ''notable'', the infobox isn't equipped to convey the idea of "highly notable vs. not-so-notable", it's only set up to convey "current vs. former", and obviously for a disbanded group all the members would be former. --[[User:IllaZilla|IllaZilla]] ([[User talk:IllaZilla|talk]]) 17:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC) |
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==Please do away with Associated Acts== |
== Please do away with Associated Acts == |
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The "Associated Acts" field is misused and abused 99% of the time on Wikipedia and really serves no purpose in an infobox. I implore anyone here to take a random sample of 20 different musician biographies and see just how poorly it is being handled. There are times when the best solution to a problem on Wikipedia is corrections through editing, but in this specific case the "Associated Acts" field is nothing more than a super-magnet for trivial and loosely related artists by the dozens, cluttering up an infobox. That is exactly what we're aiming not to do in the infobox. [[User:JBsupreme|JBsupreme]] ([[User talk:JBsupreme|talk]]) 18:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC) |
The "Associated Acts" field is misused and abused 99% of the time on Wikipedia and really serves no purpose in an infobox. I implore anyone here to take a random sample of 20 different musician biographies and see just how poorly it is being handled. There are times when the best solution to a problem on Wikipedia is corrections through editing, but in this specific case the "Associated Acts" field is nothing more than a super-magnet for trivial and loosely related artists by the dozens, cluttering up an infobox. That is exactly what we're aiming not to do in the infobox. [[User:JBsupreme|JBsupreme]] ([[User talk:JBsupreme|talk]]) 18:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC) |
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:We did rewrite the instructions for this section earlier this year. It's not likely that many old articles were changed to conform to the new instructions, so that may be what you are seeing. At that time, we did not notice such a great abuse of that field that made it unusable. Please provide some examples, and feel free to change any that need fixing. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 03:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC) |
:We did rewrite the instructions for this section earlier this year. It's not likely that many old articles were changed to conform to the new instructions, so that may be what you are seeing. At that time, we did not notice such a great abuse of that field that made it unusable. Please provide some examples, and feel free to change any that need fixing. --[[User:A Knight Who Says Ni|A Knight Who Says Ni]] ([[User talk:A Knight Who Says Ni|talk]]) 03:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 08:25, 8 December 2009
Biography: Musicians Template‑class | ||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Classical artists (continued)
The quesiton of whether or not the documentation should say "Infobox musical artist is the standard infobox for non-classical articles" (highlighted word in contention) has not been resolved, and clearly more discussion is being called for. I'm weakly in favour of the word's removal (my other objections had to do with procedure), and will recap some points for and against:
- Case for inclusion of wording: "non-classical":
- Consistency with other WikiProjects whose authority overlaps with ours.
- Some parameters that could be deemed necessary for certain genres, such as "voice type" for opera singers, would not be appropriate for a general musicians infobox. (This was the result of a recent agreement.) Some have said there are other reasons why our general musicians infobox is not appropriate for classical musicians. Maybe someone could state what those reasons are.
- Case for exclusion of wording: "non-classical":
- Mainly, I don't see there being any great inherent difference between classical and non-classical musicians, that would justify not using this infobox for both.
- The musical artist infobox belongs to WikiProject Musicians, not to other WikiProjects where decisions have been made. I have seen no evidence of an agreement at our project, and clear evidence of no consensus on this template's talk page. Our project and template should not be forced to abide by decisions made at other projects. I recommend we assert our autonomy! :)
- There are many "crossover" musicians who are clssical sometimes, and work in other genres othertimes. A good example is David Bedford, who was a straight avant-garde classical composer (and not regarded as a musician at all) in the 1960s, until he joined a rock group in the 1970s. Since then, he has associated with musicians from many genres, and most of his albums of synthesizer music do not belong to either classical or rock genres. This is a musician who definitely needs an infobox, and should not have his removed just because he was only a composer, early in his career, or because he is regarded as a classical musician some of the time. I notice his article does not currently have an infobox, but it did in the past. I also notice who removed it. *ahem* :)
- If there were agreement to exclude classical musicians from using this template, another template just for classical musicians could be proposed instead, which I don't think would be good. This move would likely lead to two out-of-sync sets of rules, and further confusion as to whether decisions made at one infobox should automatically apply to the other.
- Case for inclusion of wording: "exluding composers (who are not also notable as musicians)":
- I would be in favour of this, as composers (of any kind) are not within the scope of the template's name. In this case, we should leave the word "classical" out of it.
- Case for continued inclusion of the musicians infobox altogether:
- Well, someone brought it up! I can't see any support for depreciating the infobox. Infoboxes are a key elemnt of Wikipedia. Most users like them, and many are keen on maintaining them. The Manual of Style says nothing about their being inappropriate for some articles, and seems to support their use everywhere. Infoboxes are almost always found in "good" and "featured" articles. Really, I think this is a non-issue.
--A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 16:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm still confused by the claim that this WikiProject "owns" the template. What does ownership mean in this context, and how is it established and/or transferred? Powers T 17:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- WikiProject main pages usually list templates and related pages which are under their jurisdiction. WP:WikiProject Musicians' main page includes links to the Musicial artist infobox (this page) and Musicians navbox, and as far as I know, these templates were created by the project. The other WikiProjects mentioned here, do not link to those templates, and since some of those projects have rejected the infobox, I wouldn't expect them to. If you want to say only decisions made on this page count, that's okay. I just felt that if this template could be said to "belong" to a project, it would not belong to one that doesn't want to use it. There have been suggestions that the decision to add the word "non-classical" was made primarily at other WikiProjects. Some have been pointing to those decisions when reverting. Really, I started this new section so we could review the pros and cons of available choices, and leave the "territory" issue behind. If we reach a decision here, those other decisions will not matter. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 18:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm still confused by the claim that this WikiProject "owns" the template. What does ownership mean in this context, and how is it established and/or transferred? Powers T 17:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, the perception that WikiProjects own the articles under their respective purviews is no more valid than any other ownership of articles; it just isn't challenged often enough. WikiProjects are simply task forces; they are not sovereign states. Would that more of them realised this - some are extremely cooperative when it comes to discussing "project issues" with the community as a whole, while I get the sense that others regard themselves almost as sovereign nations. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
- Let's establish some facts:
- 1. The words 'non-classical' were removed on 31 August by Pigsonthewing (aka Andy Mabbett), see here. Pigsonthewing has a extensive block record (see here), including inter alia a one year for infobox-related disruptions on the classical music projects (see here).
- 2. The Musicians Project, (formerly?) part of the Biography Project, is overwhelmingly concerned with popular musicians. It's true that it banners all 'classical' music biographers, but fails to do any assessments, leaving it to bots (e.g. Xenobot Mk V) to copy them from other projects. Also note that the various classical music projects do not recognize WP:WikiProject Musicians as a parent. (The parent project is Music.)
- 3. Infoboxes are usually regarded as being within the scope of the Infoboxes project, rather than being owned by specific projects.
- Thanks. --Kleinzach 04:17, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd be very pleased to see "non-classical" go back in here. Tony (talk) 07:04, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- i'm in favour of reinstating the "non-classical" and eliminating the "voice type" field. stating that this infobox isn't intended for classical musicians doesn't preclude its use for "crossover" musicians like Bedford if that's what the editors involved with those articles decide to do; and in the few cases outside of classical music where voice type is relevant, verifiable, etc, it can be discussed in the body of the article. Sssoul (talk) 07:26, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd be very pleased to see "non-classical" go back in here. Tony (talk) 07:04, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Let's establish some facts:
- I've had a go at rewording this in positive rather than negative language. If the classical music project isn't a child of WikiProject Musicians, then it is implied that this template isn't the standard template for classical music without having to start listing where this template can't be used. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:28, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- I can't see anywhere on the project page where WP Musicians excludes classical musicians. If people have to have been active in this area of Wikipedia for a while in order to understand the issue, then your wording is going to be pointless. We need something that a novice editor who thinks these infoboxes look good will understand.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:19, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Again, no. That is the job of the classical music project's MoS, not the job of every individual piece of template documentation. In much the same manner as the classical music project apparently doesn't want to follow the conventions of the rest of the encyclopedia, nor should the rest of the encyclopedia have to accommodate them. In the absense of any actual evidence that in the month this message was gone that there was some adverse effect on the classical music project, it looks like the classical music project using this template's documentation as a soapbox. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:40, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- I see no such implication. WikiProject Musicians is not a parent of WikiProject Classical Music because neither is a strict subset of the other. WikiProject Musicians includes non-classical musicians, and WikiProject Classical Music includes non-musician topics. Powers T 13:02, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- And indeed WikiProjects can overlap, because they have absolutely no actual authority over the articles they claim. Which is another reason that this opt-out is ridiculous. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:06, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- and indeed WikiProjects can overlap, because they have absolutely no actual authority over the articles they claim' --- indeed, and repeatedly I've seen Kleinzach not understand this (and his message directing people here on implies that somehow tagging classical music bios as part of the Bio project was a bad thing). ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:14, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- And indeed WikiProjects can overlap, because they have absolutely no actual authority over the articles they claim. Which is another reason that this opt-out is ridiculous. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:06, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thumperward/Chris Cunningham: How about simply calling it 'popular' (rather than 'non-classical')? Would that solve the problem you are seeing? --Kleinzach 14:10, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- As long as we're reviewing the "facts", let's also review who inserted the word in the first place. The edit summary says the reason is: "Clarification as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Infobox". So let's see who made that insertion in the first place. Now look for discussions of these changes in the talk pages of those 2 pages, or at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians/Archive 3 (the appropriate archive for the time the first change went in). I haven't found it yet. (Pointers to discussions in other WikiProjects have been posted before, but as has been said, that's other WikiProjects.) --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 14:52, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) We still seem to be discussing the "territory" issue, which is okay, but I'd like to see more about the pros and cons of inserting the word "non-classical" (which would restrict the template to non-classical musician articles). I have seen some say they are for it, but not give reasons. The "territory" concern is irrelevant because we, the participants of this talk page, will decide the wording of this template's documentation, regardless of which WikiProjects we belong to. (And please, as long as discussion is ongoing, let's not change the documentation again. At this point, neither version can be declared the "original", so let's leave it in whatever state it happens to be, for the time being.) --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 14:16, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- My reason for supporting the inclusion of the phrase is two-fold. First, it's descriptive: the infobox is, I believe, not currently (widely) used on the pages of classical musicians. Second, it's practical: the infobox was designed with popular musicians in mind and is not well-suited to classical musicians. Powers T 15:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- "Non-popular" would be better, describing "classical" music, rather than the other way around. Popular (= folk) music is the natural form, from which classical is a diversion, phylogenetically. But in this context, I'm splitting hairs. Whatever is neatest and most immediately understandable. Tony (talk) 15:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- The reason for inserting "non-classical" is that the classical music WikiProject doesn't want to use it. There is no other reason for it that has been presented. Changing the word to another is a nonproductive way of avoiding the objection. (I just said "no" in reply to this suggestion when it was made before, but should have said more, and now I have.) --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 15:59, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- (reply to LtPowers): The infobox was created in early 2006, the "non-classical" restriction was added in early 2008. Are you sure it was designed with only popular music musicians in mind? Infoboxes are not found in classical musician articles because someone from the classical music WikiProject went through them all and removed them, as per a decision made at that WikiProject. I'm still looking for reasons why this template is not suitable for classical musicians, and you seem to be saying "it isn't because it isn't". --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 15:59, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oh don't you know? Classical musicians are too important to be shoehorned into a little box like that. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 16:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- Just a general impression. All of the examples are popular acts; the instructions for "current members" and "past members" assume that such fields can be completely filled (as they can for rock bands and some chamber ensembles but not for large orchestras and the like). That sort of thing. After reviewing it, though, I think I may tend to agree that such problems are minor and could easily be adapted to be suitable to all types of musicians. Powers T 18:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- We could certainly state which fields are better suited for rock bands. The fields you mention are already identified as not being intended for solo artists; we can add "and classical orchestras" to that. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 20:24, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
- "Non-popular" would be better, describing "classical" music, rather than the other way around. Popular (= folk) music is the natural form, from which classical is a diversion, phylogenetically. But in this context, I'm splitting hairs. Whatever is neatest and most immediately understandable. Tony (talk) 15:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Appropriate uses
- (splitting section for readability. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:15, 22 October 2009 (UTC))
Hello, I think the best case for treating the classical artists separately would be based on expertise. I am quite clueless about most forms of popular music and it would really be stupid for me to try to edit any of the WP's articles in this area. And likewise, my experience as a classical editor suggests that when people not experienced in classical music try to edit classical articles, it produces very troubled results. So, I think we should all stick to our own best areas of expertise, and maintain separate systems of article management, including management of infoboxes. Thanks for listening, Opus33 (talk) 00:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Whenever this subject comes up, it always seems just as ridiculous and petty as the last time. Infoboxes are extremely helpful tools. A classical artist is, in fact, a 'musician', and if a 'musician' infobox helps to summarize an article, so be it. ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 05:23, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Just some input about why WikiProject Opera editors don't use this infobox (which the doc examples and field names show it is clearly intended for non-classical musicians)....
- Origin: (doc: "The city from which the singer or group originated (that is, the city where the group was founded; or the city where individual performers started their career".) For an opera singer, this would presumably be the location of their stage debut? However, many if not most people read "origin" as meaning "nationality". It's a very misleading label for the field in general. Information like that about an opera singer in a music reference work would be labelled Debut, not Origin.
- Instruments: (doc: "General class(es) of instrument(s) played by the artist, e.g. guitar or violin. Include singing, rapping, beatboxing and/or scat singing if relevant." OK for an opera singer, presumably we then put simply "singing"?
- But then we get to Voice type where the doc says "only relevant for individual singers in lieu of the "Instrument" field" So we leave Instruments field blank and just put say, "soprano" as the doc rather confusingly suggests? Or do we fill both in? If we just leave Instruments blank, then the reader has to wait until the anachronistically named field Occupation two fields down before they find out they were principally an opera singer. If we fill in both + the intervening Genre, then Occupation is totally redundant unless the singer was also at some time in their career was noted in another field. Even then, adding singer is redundant and repetitious and leaving it out is misleading.
- Genre (doc: "Aim for generality (e.g. Hip hop rather than East Coast hip hop)...") In which case we presumably use "opera". If someone is a soprano opera singer, then should the reader have to plow through three or four fields to piece together that information when it appears in the first sentence of the article?
- Then we come to another totally unsuitable (and anachronistic) field Associated acts (doc: "This field is for professional relationships with other musicians or bands that are significant and notable to this artist's career.") Let's see, Margherita Durastanti created a lot roles in Handel's operas and oratorios so is George Frideric Handel her 'associated act'? Also opera singing is by its nature an ensemble activity. Most singers have sung in many companies and theatres and with many orchestras in their career, way too many to cram into an infobox and just picking one or two is terribly misleading. e.g. Caruso's 'associated act' was the Metropolitan Opera? I'll leave out the whole Label schtick, but again modern opera singers record for many labels.
- Read the short opening paragraph of Eugenia Tadolini. What is to be gained for the reader from additionally shoving that information into a musical artist infobox whose fields are repetitious, anachronistic, and foster misleading over-simplification and whose format seriously limits the size of the image and surrounds it with ugly and space-consuming yellow bars.
- This has nothing to due with opera or classical music being 'elite' or 'better' than any other kind of music. Nor does have anything to do with 'owning articles'. It has to do with the encyclopedic conventions and specialised vocabulary for writing about different subjects, and the reality of careers in a particular art form. One size (or in this case one infobox) does not fit all and why should it? What is so bad about documenting in some way that this infobox is not generally suitable for opera singers and classical musicians? Voceditenore (talk) 07:01, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Let's not confuse issues here. This is not a matter of whether the template is actually suitable for use by classical artists - it's whether or not we have to explicitly note that it isn't in the template documentation. To my mind, the former is a technical problem and the latter a social one. IMO the former can be worked on gradually and the latter is either pointless or actively unconstructive. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am addressing two issues, but I am not confusing them. There have been repeated requests here as to why this template is considered unsuitable for classical musicians and singers, with the clear implication that in the absence of a rationale, there's no reason to document it. I provided one with respect to opera singers. I then provided a separate opinion as to whether this template's current unsuitablity for certain types of musicians should be noted in the documentation. I personally think that it would be helpful to other editors, especially novices, and I really don't see what is "actively unconstructive" about that. There's nothing in the wording to prevent anyone in this project from gradually improving the template and its instructions. And frankly it needs it, even for non-classical musicians. Having said that, I think it would be a mistake and a waste of time to try to make this template equally suitable for opera singers and at the same time user-friendly for editors and genuinely helpful to readers, who should be our primary concern. But until it does become suitable or a separate suitable template is developed, well... Voceditenore (talk) 09:19, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- You did list some point by point reasons for resistence to the box's use for opera singer articles, and I thank you for that, it's what I've been asking for! My replies to those points are below. But by the end, your post turned into a gripe about infoboxes in general ("ugly and space-consuming yellow bars"), and accused this infobox of being underdeveloped and unsuitable for use. I certainly don't agree! No content on Wikipedia will ever reach an ideal and become inert with nothing more that could possibly be added or improved. Present-day and probably future changes to this infobox are in the form of "tweaks", not a wholesale overhaul, and tweaks are all that are needed. Tweaks are mostly required in response to other changes at Wikipedia, moreso than to address deficiencies. Infoboxes, including ours, are widely used and appreciated at Wikipedia. I was unaware of this anti-infobox sentiment until this discussion, and it completely surprises me. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 09:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- There is pretty strong anti-infobox sentiment in WikiProject Opera, WikiProject Classical music and WikiProject Composers has been for years. The usual response is that we're all a bunch of elitist cranks.;-). The Visual Arts project has quite a few members who aren't too keen on them either. See also Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Infoboxes. They may be widely used, but they are no means required, not even for Featured article status. I'm not against Wikipedia using them where they are appropriate and where accuracy is not sacrificed in favour of uniformity. There are certain types of biographies where they can be useful, including this one for the type of artist it was originally developed for. Voceditenore (talk) 11:27, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Incidentally, I didn't "accuse" this infobox as being "undeveloped". I pointed out some problems with it in general, i.e. the Origin field and the ambiguous relationship between Instrument and Occupation which could definitely use improvement. If you don't find them useful suggestions, feel free to ignore them. Nor did I say it was "unsuitable for use" for any musician. I pointed out why it's unsuitable for use with opera singers. I really don't why see that's such problem. I did accuse it of being ugly in my final sentence, but so what? That was not the thrust of my argument, just icing on the cake.;-). Voceditenore (talk) 11:53, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Point taken about my reinterpretation of your opinions; I hereby admit to possible exaggeration to make a point, no offense intended. As for anti-infobox sentiment at projects, I'm attempting to disregard them and just concentrate on getting a consensus at this page, not trying to change opinions on other pages. We can't please everyone. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 12:38, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding the documentation examples not including classical musicians, we currently show two examples, one for a solo artist and one for a group, plus we have links to three more. I really don't think anyone is going to get an implied restriction on genre out of that. Another user agreed with me that "crossover" or multi-genre musicians can have an infobox, and we could add one of those to the links, if there is agreement that this is a concern. It doesn't have to be a classical crossover musician, if that upsets the classical music project.
- Regarding the "origin" field, if an opera singer really began his/her career in a big touring opera company, and never sang previously in some other context or local performance (which I would think would be in the minority), then yes, their debut is their origin, as defined. If a reader were to mistake the field as referring to nationality, the same mistake could be made in any article. But I don't think the word invites readers to jump to conclusions.
- Regarding instruments and voice type, there is a proposal to remove the "voice type" field, with no objections so far (so I'm surprised it's still there). If the documentation were to say that for a classically trained musician notable for a certain voice range, "singing (soprano)" (for example) should be used in the instrument field, would that resolve the concern? Many infoboxes use similar elaboration in this field where needed. The "occupation" field is used where additional information is required, not already covered by other fields, and should be viewed as an optional field. No fields should duplicate information within the infobox.
- The other points you raise appear to be an objection to the concept of infoboxes, and are also applicable to any article. I don't see any conflict specific to opera singers, but if there is, the solution is to clarify the documentation, if common sense and reference to other similar articles isn't enough for editors to figure out how to use the fields. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 09:29, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree as to whether the reader intuitively understands Origin to mean "where the singer got their start". The average reader does not read template documentation. I don't think that field is aptly named (given what it is intended to go there) for any musician. I've picked several non-classical singer bios at random, and lots of them use that field for nationality or place of birth. It might be a good idea for this project to see how these infoboxes are being used by editors. Secondly, in opera and classical music reference works, the date and place of a singer's official debut is considered key information and the term debut is used, never origin. All opera singers have an official debut it's practically the first thing they list in their professional biographies. (An official debut is as a paid performer in a public performance with a professional opera company or orchestra.) Whether they got their start in "a big touring company" or a small opera house in Prague is immaterial. (Incidentally, the really major opera companies, e.g. La Scala, Metropolitan Opera, Royal Opera, are not touring companies). Even leaving out Voice type (which is actually a defining characteristic of any opera singer), putting "singing (tenor)" in a field labelled Instruments is silly. And if Occupations really means Other cccupations, why isn't it labelled as such?
- I agree that truly crossover and multi-genre performers could use these infoboxes. It doesn't "upset" me at all. But opera singers, i.e. ones who have actually sung professionally in operas in opera houses and are equally notable as cross-over singers are very rare. Andrea Bocelli is the only one who comes to mind, and he has an infobox, albeit for "solo singer / rap artist" and with his place of birth in the er... Origin field.
- I personally think (and as do most of my fellow editors in the opera project) that an infobox for opera singer biographies is unnecessary if the lead is properly written, especially in short articles, and that they can be counterproductive. But that is neither here nor there. I am specifically focusing on why I think this infobox is unsuitable for opera singers, and cannot be made so without making it incredibly complicated and error-prone. Why not concentrate on making it better for the kinds of singers that it was primarily intended for? But feel free to disregard everything I've written, and we'll just agree to disagree.;-) Voceditenore (talk) 10:41, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not disregarding reasons that are being given, and I'm doing my best to encourage them! A compromise solution is to allow the infobox to be used for classical musicians, with the exclusion of opera singers. I can't propose this, or other compromises, if I don't know the reasons for exclusion, so that's why I'm asking. Regarding "singing (tenor)" in the instruments field, if "singing" by itself is acceptable here, why not? Some people get outraged when voice is not held on a par with other instruments, so it's not silly at all. "Occupations" is not labelled "other occupations" because info should not be duplicated within the infobox, and many fields (most?) are non-mandatory, so it's just common sense to use it only where needed to specify something other than singer or musician. Regarding "debut", from what you're saying, this term is something completely different from "origin"; a singer could be born in one place, start their career in another, and make their operetic debut in yet another. A field called "opera debut" with stern warning about using it only for opera singers, could be a solution. Regarding inappropriate use of the "origin" field in musician articles in general, I've seen that happen, but I've also seen it addressed and fixed. I remember a discussion at the Pink Floyd article last year where we ended up changing the field from "Cambridge" (which the group were usually associated with early in their career) to "London" (which is where they really started), to be in accordance with the instructions. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 12:00, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Voceditenore gave some of the reasons why infoboxes for opera singers are not helpful to the reader. (One more is: what's the background colour for opera singers? In fact, what's the background for any classical musician, be they composer's or performers?) Here are some reasons why infoboxes are not helpful for other classical musicians:
- Do we really want to list the full birth name of Mozart in an infobox? There's a whole article about it.
- What's the "origin" state and country for Mozart? There are already occasional scuffles about that as it is; no need to present a broader attack area.
- What's the birth date of Beethoven? There's a lengthy footnote about it. There are hundreds of composers for whom we don't know their dates of birth or death.
- What is Daniel Barenboim's instrument? The piano or his orchestra? Can an orchestra be an instrument?
- What genre would apply to Richard Wagner? Which one to Leonard Bernstein? Or to Karlheinz Stockhausen??
- When does a typical instrumentalist become active? When they win their first competition at age 5, as they invariably do? When is the period of Nellie Melba supposed to have ended? Well, that's an opera singer, and apparently we agree that the template is not suitable for them. What about Vladimir Ashkenazy? When he stopped concert tours or on the day he quits conducting?
- What "label" would apply to a composer? A performer? We have extensive discographies to cover them. Put them all into an infobox?
- The "associated acts" field is just too silly to contemplate.
- What's William Byrd's "URL"?
- What's James Morrison's "notable instrument"? He actually does have an infobox, and what a mess it is. I've seen him play the 3rd movement of Mozart's Horn concerto K. 495 on a garden hose. Well again, Morrison is not mainly known for his playing of classical music, but what about Telemann? Apart from being famous for probably the most prolific output of compositions of all time, he played, and was most notable in his day for that, violin, viola da gamba, recorder, flauto traverso, oboe, shawm, sackbut and double bass; today, we only know him as a composer. There are others in a similar position; how does one put Arnold Dolmetsch into an infobox?
- This is just an off-the-cuff selection of reasons why infoboxes don't work for classical musicians. And I haven't yet mentioned orchestras, ensembles, instrument builders, musicologists, Artistic Directors. opera directors, stage designers… -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:06, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Whoa, hold on! You're talking about composers. I have made it clear this proposal is not about using this infobox for composers (classical or otherwise), and as far as I know, nobody is proposing that. If a person is both a composer and a musician, they can have an infobox to cover their career as a musician. An example of this was discussed earlier. If Telemann is not notable today as a musician, and his article is mainly about his career as a composer, he shouldn't have the box. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 12:46, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Stage designers? Artistic directors? Instrument builders? I don't think anyone is suggesting we use this infobox on such articles. Anyway, your classical musician difficulties are largely applicable to non-classical musicians as well. It is not only classical musicians who might have uncertain dates of birth, for instance. If a field is inapplicable to a particular musician, it can be left blank, or footnoted. Powers T 12:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Voceditenore gave some of the reasons why infoboxes for opera singers are not helpful to the reader. (One more is: what's the background colour for opera singers? In fact, what's the background for any classical musician, be they composer's or performers?) Here are some reasons why infoboxes are not helpful for other classical musicians:
- Nobody is proposing using it for bricklayers, chemical elements or shopping malls either. That does not mean that these need to be specifically excluded in the template documentation. If an exception is added every time a group in some niche in of Wikipedia does a straw poll and decides to opt out of the rest of the encyclopedia's conventions then the documentation will be unmanageable. I'm further opposed to this because Kleinzach has in effect argued above that the existence of the opt-out on this documentation (which he added himself) reinforces the position of said groups, which is backwards. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 13:16, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- The Template:Infobox musical artist says it's for musicians; that article includes composers and more. WikiProject Musicians/Infobox provides no further guidance, except that it currently excludes classical musicians. I understood that this very exclusion is being disputed now. If I'm wrong in my understanding, for which kind of classical musicians, if any, is this infobox proposed? I find it difficult to get my head around a distinction between musicians and composers. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:08, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- It didn't occur to me that the definition of "musician" might be an issue. But part of the proposal is to explicity exclude "composers who are not also notable as musicians", which should resolve that problem. Unless there is a question of what "composer" means? --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 14:16, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- We need not enforce a strict guideline of that nature; different situations require different approaches, and it may be appropriate for some people and not appropriate for others. That is a matter for the relevant WikiProjects to discuss on a case-by-case basis. The argument against prohibition is simply to say that if you're going to use an infobox then you might as well use this one (and help to make it more relevant to the subject in question by proposing changes to it). This is the position I've held whenever strict rules on infobox use have been proposed in the past. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- I can agree with that position. We should make the template relevant to all musicians, or, if it cannot be made so, create a new template that can be used for other types of musicians. Powers T 14:22, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- We need not enforce a strict guideline of that nature; different situations require different approaches, and it may be appropriate for some people and not appropriate for others. That is a matter for the relevant WikiProjects to discuss on a case-by-case basis. The argument against prohibition is simply to say that if you're going to use an infobox then you might as well use this one (and help to make it more relevant to the subject in question by proposing changes to it). This is the position I've held whenever strict rules on infobox use have been proposed in the past. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- "different situations require different approaches" indeed, and i don't see any advantage to trying to come up with a "one-size-fits-all" infobox. different music projects can develop different infoboxes that suit their needs. Sssoul (talk) 14:49, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, that might be where we run into problems. Prior to the advent of recording, nearly all composers were also notable as musicians, because that's how they disseminated their works -- but they are primarily known today as composers because there were no recordings made of their performances. Powers T 14:22, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Good point. The word "notable" in the instructions could wikilink to WP:Notability (about notability requirements for articles), to make it clear we're talking about present-day notability as defined at Wikipedia for article content. I just presumed that was self-evident, but the wikilink could make it closer to explicit, without the need to add a definition of "notable" that readers will skim over. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 14:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- (outdent) God damn, why does this tripe popping up? The first three on the list are CLEARLY unrelated to them being musicians. They can be problems with ANYONE. No. 4 -- ok. But who says a field can't list that he's a piano an conductor? There's room for both. No. 5, well to most readers, "classical" may be enough info. Perhaps the era they are most known as...I'll agree that one is problematic. No. 6 can apply to ANY musician can't it? No. 7 also can apply to ANY musician, and certainly some classical musicians DO have single labels they have always or almost always recorded with (Yo-Yo Ma for instance); easy enough to leave composers out (though even Rachmaninov recorded only for RCA didn't he?). No. 8, skip it -- so what? Again, you don't HAVE to include every entry. No. 9, skip it too, though some dead composers still have official sites (Leonard Bernstein for instance). And 10, well skip it too? So that leaves exactly *ONE* of the ten that has a real problem, and a couple that might. Everything else are either potential problems will ALL people, or with any musicians. This is why people call you elitists -- because you're being ABSOLUTELY REDICULOUS in trying to justify your exclusion. Or am I just so dumb I can't see what a genius you are? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:21, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- It may be ridiculous, but let's not edge into apoplexy. We can keep things calm and collegial, I hope. Powers T 14:22, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- (outdent) God damn, why does this tripe popping up? The first three on the list are CLEARLY unrelated to them being musicians. They can be problems with ANYONE. No. 4 -- ok. But who says a field can't list that he's a piano an conductor? There's room for both. No. 5, well to most readers, "classical" may be enough info. Perhaps the era they are most known as...I'll agree that one is problematic. No. 6 can apply to ANY musician can't it? No. 7 also can apply to ANY musician, and certainly some classical musicians DO have single labels they have always or almost always recorded with (Yo-Yo Ma for instance); easy enough to leave composers out (though even Rachmaninov recorded only for RCA didn't he?). No. 8, skip it -- so what? Again, you don't HAVE to include every entry. No. 9, skip it too, though some dead composers still have official sites (Leonard Bernstein for instance). And 10, well skip it too? So that leaves exactly *ONE* of the ten that has a real problem, and a couple that might. Everything else are either potential problems will ALL people, or with any musicians. This is why people call you elitists -- because you're being ABSOLUTELY REDICULOUS in trying to justify your exclusion. Or am I just so dumb I can't see what a genius you are? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 14:21, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) A question for the opera buffs in the room :) ... If I were to propose adding "This template should not be used for musicians who are primarily notable as opera singers", is that appropriate wording? I don't want to say "only" in place of "primarily", because that sounds demeaning ("she's ONLY an opera singer"!). But "primarily" may invite POV. If a person is, say, 60% regarded as an opera singer and 40% as a drummer in a rock band, and the drumming career is adequately covered in the article, I'm concerned that someone may say the word "primarily" means the opera career trumps the other, so no infobox for you. Sorry for the convoluted example. From our discussion of crossover musicians, I think this musician could have an infobox to cover the drummer career. Any suggestions on appropriate wording to put this point across? (You don't actually have to be in favour of the proposal to make a suggestion, and for myself, I may propose it without voting on it.) --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 14:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's precisely that kind of edge case which makes prohibition silly. Then you've got classical violinists who release pop albums. And classical pianists who compose film scores. That's three seconds' worth of examples which would require additional clarification. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Geez all this talk of prohibiting and enforcing and "should not" and who gets to prohibit and who doesn't. ;-) How about just a simple note to the effect that "this template may not be suitable for primarily classical musicians and singers" and leave it at that. It's just a heads-up to editors, especially novice editors and those outside the field. But really, if any mention whatsoever in the documentation to that effect is such a big deal. Well leave it out. The relevant projects will continue to make their own recommendations. I doubt if you (the collective Musicians Project "you") will get many other projects suggesting that this template should not be used for musicians who are primarily notable in their genre. The three projects who look after classical music subjects (including opera) look after over 20,000 articles in an area that most encyclopedias consider core rather than "niche". But if the Musicians Project wants to call it a niche area, and make no exceptions on that basis, well...OK... Voceditenore (talk) 15:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's more of a systemic bias than anything really. They may be more important to overall history, but far less people care about them so they are niche in the sense of popularity. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 16:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Geez all this talk of prohibiting and enforcing and "should not" and who gets to prohibit and who doesn't. ;-) How about just a simple note to the effect that "this template may not be suitable for primarily classical musicians and singers" and leave it at that. It's just a heads-up to editors, especially novice editors and those outside the field. But really, if any mention whatsoever in the documentation to that effect is such a big deal. Well leave it out. The relevant projects will continue to make their own recommendations. I doubt if you (the collective Musicians Project "you") will get many other projects suggesting that this template should not be used for musicians who are primarily notable in their genre. The three projects who look after classical music subjects (including opera) look after over 20,000 articles in an area that most encyclopedias consider core rather than "niche". But if the Musicians Project wants to call it a niche area, and make no exceptions on that basis, well...OK... Voceditenore (talk) 15:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Musical artist is exceptionally wide in its connotations: players, group members, composers, even producers where they make substantial contribution to the sound of an artists/band/record eg George Martin. Also, every single genre under the sun is implied including every non-Western genre... Worse still, do we include Franz Liszt, Arcangelo Corelli etc, i.e. notable artists from previous centuries? You have to limit the scope. Modern Classical artists are being covered by this box, anyway, eg Alarm Will Sound, London Symphony Orchestra, Ludovico Einaudi, so the main issue raised above is irrelevent (unless all those articles are de-tagged...). However, the box needs to be applied in a sensible and consistant way that reflects the lead in the Template page. Hence, that lead needs to be rewritten to explain to scope intended (even non-classical musician includes folk singers from previous centuries) --Jubilee♫clipman 17:37, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- And why, exactly, must this be in the template documentation? If it isn't appropriate for some purposes, it won't be used for them. This whole argument presupposes that by omitting a Grand List Of Permitted Purposes, that somehow we're mandating that this template be forced onto the biographies of anyone who's ever so much as whistled in key. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:12, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- You know what, you have a point (one that has been made several times now I've had a chance to thoroughly read the discussion). Why not just accept that this template will be—indeed, is—used for an enormous diversity of articles and write the lead to reflect that. To clarify, the words non-classical must be removed per the actual usage of this template, unless anyone feels like removing the template from all classical articles that use it, including the numerous orchestras. Press What links here from the main page to see what I mean. (Hint: it could take weeks even just to find them.) The template will probably not be used to tag musical artists long dead or unknown it the West, so my other objections are probably not relevent. --Jubilee♫clipman 19:20, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- To Jubileeclipman and Voceditenore who posted similar messages: this is an option I had in mind from the beginning. But if the instructions were to advise "this template may not be ideal for certain people, like classical musicians for instance, because..." - well, what's the rest? That's why I was asking for objections to be spelled out. I think we have some for opera singers, though I can't see how to put what I've seen into the instructions, and I'm not expecting to see much more after this time. I've gathered enough info to post some formal proposals. Thank you, everyone, for your input. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 20:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- You know what, you have a point (one that has been made several times now I've had a chance to thoroughly read the discussion). Why not just accept that this template will be—indeed, is—used for an enormous diversity of articles and write the lead to reflect that. To clarify, the words non-classical must be removed per the actual usage of this template, unless anyone feels like removing the template from all classical articles that use it, including the numerous orchestras. Press What links here from the main page to see what I mean. (Hint: it could take weeks even just to find them.) The template will probably not be used to tag musical artists long dead or unknown it the West, so my other objections are probably not relevent. --Jubilee♫clipman 19:20, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Proposed change
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Result was: no consensus for proposed changes
Current wording of this template's lead paragraph:
- {{Infobox musical artist}} is the standard infobox for non-classical musician articles, and is within the purview of WikiProject Musicians.
- See also Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians/Infobox for more information.
Proposed changes below by: --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 20:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Proposal 5, which I believe is a simple and practical solution, has been added below. --Kleinzach 00:42, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Prop. 1
Remove the word "non-classical".
- For
- Yes --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 20:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Strongly so. It's not a matter of use, it's a matter of where this belongs. I'm very suspicious that this is an attempt to discourage people from even suggesting that the classical project cease its ridiculous factionalism by trying to head people off early. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:57, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- I support this option. Powers T 14:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Against
- No. I know I've just crossed the floor but this was settled years ago. Orchestras seem to be an acceptable exception. (see here, which also gives links to the debates) --Jubilee♫clipman 02:12, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- No. 'Non-classical' describes the box. That's why it was the accepted description for 18 months prior to 31 August 09. --Kleinzach 23:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- No. It's actually the best description, succinct, not prohibitive. Voceditenore (talk) 05:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Tony (talk) 11:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:19, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- No. As I tried to argue above, popular and classical music require very different expertise to edit, and therefore separate infoboxes (if any). Opus33 (talk) 15:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Patent nonsense. The infobox is just a set of key-value pairs: it requires no more expertise to edit one than to edit another. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:39, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hello, it's not nonsense at all. If you had seen some of the edits to classical music infoboxes that I have seen, you would understand this point. Sincerely, Opus33 (talk) 18:24, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- That bad examples exist does not imply that all examples are bad. It would help if people used solid examples rather than anecdotal appeals to authority in cases like this. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:57, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Chris Cunningham: 'Solid examples' have been provided in previous debates. I gave you a link to these discussions on 16 October (see here on your own talk page). --Kleinzach 07:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- I do not consider the sole example I can see on that debate, an argument about Beethoven's date of birth, to be a solid example of why this template is generally unsuitable for composers. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- Chris Cunningham: 'Solid examples' have been provided in previous debates. I gave you a link to these discussions on 16 October (see here on your own talk page). --Kleinzach 07:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- That bad examples exist does not imply that all examples are bad. It would help if people used solid examples rather than anecdotal appeals to authority in cases like this. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 18:57, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hello, it's not nonsense at all. If you had seen some of the edits to classical music infoboxes that I have seen, you would understand this point. Sincerely, Opus33 (talk) 18:24, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, for the reasons discussed at considerable length in the CM archives. Eusebeus (talk) 10:10, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's a shame replies are referencing "CM archives" (classical music WikiProject). I asked a week ago for a summary of these arugments, and only got an explanation about the Opera project's stance (plus a reply about composers, which isn't relevant). CM's reasons for not wanting an infobox at all, can be completely different to the needs of the template's editors, and the question of where WE want to allow it to be used. It's potentially an "apples and oranges" comparison. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 10:30, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- Abslutely no. --Smerus (talk) 06:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- While there is a consensus among editors who edit classical music articles against the use fo this box, then it is fair to leave the words in, so that editors who are unaware of the flame wars on this issue don't get caught up in one by mistake.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Prop. 2
Add to end of sentence: "This template should not be used for articles about composers who are not also notable as musicians."
- For
- Against
- No, why bother? Who's going to actually read the template lead anyway before applying it? --Jubilee♫clipman 22:02, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- No. Composers are musicians in almost all cases. --Kleinzach 00:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Composers are always musicians, by definition... I never noticed that glaring illogicality! --Jubilee♫clipman 02:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- No. Composers are musicians. Voceditenore (talk) 05:40, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Tony (talk) 11:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:19, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, I don't this is useful or addresses the point at hand. Opus33 (talk) 15:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)*I do not support this suggestion, but only because of the clunky wording. Powers T 14:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, as per Kleinzach and others, this is just meaningless.--Smerus (talk) 06:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Such a large chunk of composers are performers that this is an unhappy compromise.--Peter cohen (talk) 16:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Prop. 3
Add to end (exact method of appending depends on which other prop(s) to be implemented): ", and may not be suitable for articles about opera singers."
- For
- Against
- No, why bother? (As prop.2) --Jubilee♫clipman 22:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- No. Making special and illogical exceptions only creates more scope for further time-wasting debates. --Kleinzach 00:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- No. Why single out opera singers? It is currently equally unsuitable for other classical musicians. Voceditenore (talk) 05:40, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Tony (talk) 11:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:19, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, #5 is a much better solution. Opus33 (talk) 15:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- I do not support this suggestion, but only because of the clunky wording. Powers T 14:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- No.--Smerus (talk) 06:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Prop. 4
Add: ", and may not be suitable for articles about classical musicians."
- For
- Against
- No, why bother? (As prop.2) --Jubilee♫clipman 22:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- Tony (talk) 11:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, #5 is a much better solution. Opus33 (talk) 15:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- I do not support this suggestion, but only because of the clunky wording. Powers T 14:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- No.--Smerus (talk) 06:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Abstain
- No, this proposal is inappropriate - a transparent attempt at splitting the consensus against using the box for 'classical' musicians. It should be noted unambiguously that this infobox is for popular musicians. As members of the Music project know, it's been very difficult to make the box 'fit' the whole range of popular musicians, let alone adding 'classical' ones! (See here for the September/October 2008 debate about the problem of the 'genre' field which occupied five whole archives of discussions and was never fully resolved). --Kleinzach 02:16, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- There is no vote splitting, because you are not being asked to choose this instead of other props, you can vote on each. Obviously this prop is only applicable if "non-classical" were to be removed from the first sentence. There were no bad intentions in this prop. The genres debate had nothing to do with what is being debated now, so I'm not sure why you're linking to it. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 05:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, it's better to be unambiguous, but I suppose it's better than nothing. Voceditenore (talk) 05:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Prop. 5
Rename Infobox musical artist as Infobox popular music(al) artist:
- For
- Yes. --Kleinzach 00:46, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes: This is the obvious way out of the quagmire... --Jubilee♫clipman 02:16, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yep. Tony (talk) 11:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, a totally sensible idea. Opus33 (talk) 15:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, this is a good idea to provide clarity about the inappropriate use of infoboxes for classical musicians. Eusebeus (talk) 10:08, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- yes, the obvious answer.--Smerus (talk) 06:05, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Against
- Per the discussion above. The template isn't used only for pop music; I'm strongly opposed to the factionising that seems to be driving the classical music project, and we absolutely should not encourage it. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose. In part by Voceditenore (talk · contribs). Renaming the template really wouldn't help in this case. — ξxplicit 19:05, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Considering the template is "within the purview of WikiProject Musicians", I doubt the WikiProject would be willing to change its name to "WikiProject Popular Musicians" on the basis of what the classical music project wants. This prop. is outside of anything that was discussed. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 05:09, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- In case it isn't clear, we are discussing changing the name of this infobox, not changing the name of any project. --Kleinzach 06:02, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think it's plausible changing the name of a template used by tens of thousands of articles by consensus of four "Yeps". This discussion has gone an unreasonable way, the issue was using Classical artists in this template or not; not changing the name of this template to accomodate a genre-specific alternate template. Kiac (talk) 06:58, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- In case it isn't clear, we are discussing changing the name of this infobox, not changing the name of any project. --Kleinzach 06:02, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- I do not support this suggestion, because I am not yet convinced that we can't use just one infobox for all musical performers. Powers T 14:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
AbstainOppose Would avoid objections to having "non-classical" in the doc. But (a) the term "popular" is in itself slightly ambiguous ("musical artist who is popular" vs. "musical artist in the popular music genre") and (b) even with the more obvious meaning "popular music", it opens up a whole can of worms and is liable to lead to endless wrangling. Example: it's not clear that jazz is popular music (at least from those two articles), but the template is widely used for jazz musicians. I'd prefer to just document that it's used for non-classical musicians.But would have no objections to name change if others feel it's appropriateVoceditenore (talk) 06:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC) revised Voceditenore (talk) 15:01, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Popular music artist might be better than popular musical artist if you go this route. Voceditenore (talk) 07:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- i agree with Voceditenore's points. what about renaming it Infobox non-classical music artist? Sssoul (talk) 07:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Infobox popular music artist would be fine (also for that matter Infobox non-classical music artist). (See parens. added above.) --Kleinzach 13:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- i agree with Voceditenore's points. what about renaming it Infobox non-classical music artist? Sssoul (talk) 07:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Because it's still being used for articles which pertain to classical music. This whole rationale is predicated on an invalid premise. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:55, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
If you want a template disassociated with this one for Classical artists, would it not make sense to leave this as is and create a separate Infobox classical music artist? Why change the majority to make room for the minority? Seems nonsensical to me. Kiac (talk) 05:04, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- It certainly does seem as though this extra prop was added to throw a monkey wrench into the main proposal. This 5th prop is not needed, nor is it appropriate. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 05:19, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- abstain. A rename would make it easier for users without knowledge of the history to recognise the consensus scope fo use. However, "popular" is ambiguous. If a suitable wording could be found, renaming sould be useful. Or are there ways to have several names mapping to the same template?--Peter cohen (talk) 16:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Section break
I think I would prefer one of two routes here. First, we should look at making sure the infobox can be used for all musical performers. Obviously musicians who are primarily composers (and not performers) may have different needs that cannot be met by a generic performer infobox, but I would think all performers have enough in common that they should be able to use the same template. If no one wants to take the time and effort to do this, I would suggest removing the "non-classical" restriction anyway, and replace it with a generalized disclaimer, stating that the infobox is primarily designed for performers of popular music and that it may not be well suited for articles on other musicians, including opera singers and composers. Powers T 14:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would be very in favour of a generalised disclaimer like that. I think it's a good solution, in fact the best one. There's nothing in it which precludes people trying to make this suitable for all musicians, although I personally don't think it's feasible. Voceditenore (talk) 15:12, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no evidence that a general disclaimer is necessary. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:19, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- What would constitute "evidence"? And besides, even if it's not necessary, it might be helpful. Powers T 17:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- Basically anything other than appeals to authority or absurd induction from hand-picked examples would do. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- What would constitute "evidence"? And besides, even if it's not necessary, it might be helpful. Powers T 17:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no evidence that a general disclaimer is necessary. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:19, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Let's consider the background. In 2007, the Biography (Musicians Project) banner was placed by bot on 50,000+ musical biographies of all and every kind. This banner had (and still has) an 'Infobox required' field which encouraged people to add infoboxes to articles.
In the past editors who added boxes in good faith (but who were uninvolved with the actual writing of articles) were invariably shocked to be told that their boxes were inappropriate. So (amongst other measures) the words 'non-classical' were added here as an advance warning. To some extent it's been successful, though there are still occasional cases of people who use the box without noticing the 'non-classical' labelling.
It's important that the message gets across as clearly as possible and IMO the best way to do this is in the title of the box. 'Generalized disclaimers' are simply not prominent enough to work and will be difficult to interpret. --Kleinzach 00:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm habing great difficulty establishing why you think it is the template documentation, rather than the banner which says "infobox required" which is the problem here. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Summary and resolution
The discussion is now winding down. I suggest we ask an admin (who is uninvolved but reasonably familiar with this box) to close the debate and make whatever changes are requred.
Possible admin: Antandrus would fit this description — or perhaps Moreschi. --Kleinzach 01:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Trans;ation: "Get someone I know on my side to close this, so I can win". ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- I will politely decline, as one who has made very strong statements of opinion about infoboxes in the past (although I have not taken part in this debate). Sorry -- just have to declare my COI. Melodia, please assume good faith. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 02:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- How about Rich Farmbrough? He has helped look after this box. Has he ever expressed an opinion? If so I've never seen it. Can we ask him? --Kleinzach 02:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Prop 1 was turned down, props 2, 3 and 4 were only intended as a compromise if prop 1 were to be accepted, and prop 5 has no consensus or agreement. I closed the polling with note, "no consensus for proposed changes" , but Kleinzach re-opened it, saying it's too early to close it. I had intended to close it Saturday night, since responses seemed to had stalled by then, but didn't get to it until Sunday night. What are we keeping it open for? --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 12:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- It would be appropriate for someone who is not partisan to close this. I've asked Rich Farmbrough. --Kleinzach 13:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's about the third time you've made an uncalled-for accusation like that. How about knocking it off? Since there is no agreement to change anything, anyone can close it. No administrator is needed. If you kept the debate open longer because you hoped for more support for your "prop 5", it doesn't seem to be working; votes that have come in since you re-opened voting have not supported it. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 01:55, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Consensus for 'non-classical'
Now we've had a cooling off period (of three days) to get this discussion in perspective after it was peremptorily closed (see here and here), many will agree that closure is good. (Repetitive debates are tedious.) It's clear there's a strong consensus for the words 'non-classical musical artist' to remain in the description of this box. There was also a 'majority' interest in changing the name of the box to reflect that. This may be worth returning to in the future. --Kleinzach 10:09, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- Given the low participation, I don't see anything of the sort. On a strict head-count it's about 1:2 in favour of keeping, but half of them are zero-content "I agree" or the like. There's no consensus to remove the wording, true, but there is certainly no mandate for the agenda which got it added in the first place. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- I see the results (to the "rename" proposal) as Chris does; 6 short votes in favour, and 4 detailed negative reactions, not really qualifying as a "majority interest". About the whole discussion, there was a lot of drama over what was merely an attempt to halt an edit war being done by people who were avoiding using the talk page at first. Eventually, that was no longer a problem! As this thing kept expanding, I was afraid of seeing a write-up appear about it in the Signpost "discussion reports and misc. articulations" page. If you have bad feelings about my closing the discussion (going by the use of word "peremptorily" which I had to look up, and the use of 2 diff-links), I have often seen discussions closed after one day, but was willing to keep it open as long as it was active. I closed it more than a day after seeing replies winding down, and thought I should have closed it sooner. I don't think I can be accused of jumping the gun.
- Anyway, thanks to everyone who participated. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 00:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thumperward/Chris Cunningham and A Knight Who Says Ni: You two removed the words 'non-classical' (see here and here and here.) This long — arguably unnecessary — debate was the result. --Kleinzach 00:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well maybe that should tell you something if two independent people agree, huh? Oh I forget, you own all of the things within your interest. Silly me. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 01:11, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Darn right I reverted it when I saw it being changed without discussion, and others disagreeing with the change. If you think this sort of thing SHOULD be going on without discussion, and using the talk page to reach a decision is "unnecessary debate", I wonder why you even bother posting on talk pages. You have been around long enough to know how things work on Wikipedia. Bullying your way through when things don't go your way, and making accusations against others in the process, is not appropriate behaviour. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 02:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thumperward/Chris Cunningham and A Knight Who Says Ni: You two removed the words 'non-classical' (see here and here and here.) This long — arguably unnecessary — debate was the result. --Kleinzach 00:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Template:Infobox musical artist/color Proposed Change
Most artists who are members of groups on WP tend to be listed under "solo_singer" or "non_vocal_instrumentalist". Barbra Streisand is a solo singer, and Yanni is a non-vocal instrumentalist. This leaves all other artists who both sing and play an instrument(s) without a proper category.
I propose adding "vocal_instrumentalist" to the template. I could care less what the color is... Doc9871 (talk) 08:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
- Instructions on which to use in this case, are under the table of colour bars. Considering that there are probably more singer/instrumentalists around these days, than purely singers or instrumentalists (I'm thinking of solo performers rather than band members, as the former is more likely to have an article), it wouldn't be much of a loss to combine the two existing categories. (Don't worry, I'm not proposing that.) --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 01:04, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Ni at will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history."
- Don't like the current "instructions" after the Infobox anymore than I like my current shrubber (he's been a bit "uppity" lately). You're 93.7% right about merging the two categories, but there should be fringe allotments for the true solo singer (Streisand) and true non-vocal instrumentalist (Yanni). We both understand that this template will only expand in its descriptions as time goes on, so I'm certainly not worried about much except the price of tea. I say, let's keep the two existing parameters, and create the third (vocal_instrumentalist) to encompass the vast majority of musical artists on WP... Doc9871 (talk) 09:48, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- To me, 'vocal instrumentalist' insinuates a person whose voice is their instrument, not a vocal/instrumentalist. kiac. (talk-contrib) 10:22, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- Good point. How about "vocalist_instrumentalist"? I don't care what the exact title is, just that there's a separate category... Doc9871 (talk) 10:28, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the recognition quote, but we are no longer the knights who say Ni, we are now the knights who say... well, I could go on, but other editors would probably think I'm crazier than you are. Back to the topic, I'm thinking we will need complex instructions on what to do with someone like Jon Anderson who is mainly known as a vocalist, but does play guitar and other instruments. He actually played all instruments on his first solo album, a pretty good feat for someone who many people presume doesn't play any instrument. A revised write-up of "how to determine which parameter value to choose" would have to be part of the proposal. Another concern is how (or if) we are going to convert articles currently using the template. A bot can't accurately re-categorize articles all of the time, but we might have a bot go through all articles using the template with solo singer, and look to see if the "instruments" field is blank, or contains nothing other than the 4 voice-related values suggested by the current instructions, and presume that such an article should remain as solo singer, and change all others to vocalist instrumentalist. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 15:52, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm glad you brought up Jon Anderson, as he's a perfect illustration of why the third category should be created. As you pointed out, he's mainly known as a singer, but also plays instruments. Letting the average viewer know that he's not just a vocalist, but also an instrumentalist can only enrich the environment. Jim Morrison played harmonica, so he would be "vocalist_intrumentalist" for that alone. I think once the change is made, other editors will quickly catch on and things will work themselves out (more or less).
The genesis of this idea came when I was working on Journey bass player Ross Valory's page. He was listed as a "non-vocal_instrumentalist", and the picture on the page shows him singing live during a concert. I had already known he sang backup vocals, and was not merely an instrumentalist, so I got a little irritated with how the template was limited as it currently is.
As kind of an experiment, I had already changed all current and former members of the Eagles to the proposed category, as all are clearly both vocalists and instrumentalists. I did, however, leave the templates on the bottom of each page unchanged; this template lists, for instance Glenn Frey's solo efforts. The distinction between an artist from a band as a subsequent solo artist is another can of worms to be opened, but I think at a later date...
The issues you brought up regarding the challenges of changing the template are new to me, as I'm pretty unfamiliar with a lot of WP workings. "Bots" are not yet within my realm, but I'm always happy to learn from editors with more experience (such as yourself) on how to make the change possible. I absolutely feel it's worth changing this, and am confident that it will happen in the future whether the change is made now or later. I say we make the change now (with additional Admin help if needed), and we'll be celebrated as pioneers one day down the road ;>
"I feel...happy..." (WHACK) Doc9871 (talk) 07:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
- Before you get too happy... it's not a good idea to change a parameter to a value that isn't supported by the template. The Eagles members now have a template colour that is the default for when a non-recognized value is used. There used to be, and may still be, a bot going around looking for instances of unrecognized values being used, and flagging them for change. I also seem to recall discussion of a way to automatically categorize an article with a template in this state. This would be a "hidden category" with a name something like: templates that needs correcting. I just checked the Glenn Frey page, and there is no applicable hidden category, so either I'm thinking of another template, or it was an idea that never got implemented. Anyway, changing the template to use a non-supported value in a live article can get you a whack with a wet trout, so I advise undoing this change. As for my suggestion of setting up a bot to change articles after the template is changed, I didn't mean you (or I) should create a bot. There is a way to request existing bot-runners to do this for us. That's for the future.
- As the next step, I recommend you rewrite the instructions for this parm, and present it here as a proposal. You said you didn't want to pick a new colour, but if it's your idea, you should pick one. Existing colours are pastel-ish, and pink is not being used. OR, presuming most articles using "solo singer" are going to change to the new value, we could do a switcheroo and make the new value yellow (the current colour for singer), and change singer to a new colour. That way, most articles will not change colour. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 12:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
- Allow me to jump in here. I share Knight's concern; a major change like this, supposedly impacting thousands of infoboxes, shouldn't be rushed through, and I will strongly advice you to hold your horses until a consensus has been reached and some clear guidelines have been established concerning the application of this new value. You mention yourself Ross Valory as an example where you would apply it. Does that mean that you would consider every musician who has been shouting some backup vocals (like Keith Moon) and every singer who has been banging on a tambourine on stage in order to be occupied during the instrumental solos (like Joe Cocker) as "vocalist_intrumentalist"? If that's the case, I am afraid that there won't be many pure vocalists and instrumentalists back to populate the two existing categories. What I am trying to say is that I am not necessarily opposed to your proposal (and not wholly convinced either), but we definitely need some clear guidelines on how to use this new value. So I concur with Knight, you should put forward a proper proposal in this space that people can look at and comment. – IbLeo (talk) 14:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
- I wouldn't attempt to make a change this radical without a proposal, as it would probably get me into trouble, and is not for one person to decide anyway. I appreciate the help from both of you greatly, and it only aids me in forming a proper proposal fit for submission; one that would succeed, of course.
- A change like this probably would eliminate all but the very pure vocalist and instrumentalist from the existing categories, and that is one of the goals. Bother Cocker and Moon played instruments and sang, so they would certainly be moved. Simply because Cocker is known primarily as a singer does not exclude the fact that he also played guitar and harmonica (as listed in his Infobox). There is no importance placed on either parts of the proposed category; Moon was primarily an instrumentalist who sang sometimes, but it wouldn't be changed to "instrumentalist_vocalist" because of that. It would be a catch-all category, far superior to what is currently in place, that would keep "solo_singer" reserved for opera singers, pop singers, and all others whose sole instrument is their voice. On the other side, Kenny G, Yo Yo Ma and a host of others are pure instrumentalists who do not sing. All others would fall into the "vocalist_instrumentalist" category if they did both.
- I agree that it's a little more complicated than I'm portraying (esp. when you bring up the tambourine <shudder>). Looking at someone like Madonna, I see where it would feel "uneasy" placing her in the proposed category because of her Infobox information. I appreciate more feedback before I craft a proposal that will aid the process of categorizing musicians more accurately than at present. Knight's idea about keeping the color the same as it is now is excellent, and would certainly be a crucial part of the proposal, to assuage the fears of those who loathe substantial and sudden change.
- P.S.: Do either of you (or anyone else reading this) know exactly why it's called "solo_singer" and not just "singer"? The "solo" designation seems to confuse things further. Does this mean solo artist? I'd love to know the reasoning behind "solo_singer"... Doc9871 (talk) 03:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
- I haven't been around long enough to know the origins of "solo_singer". Looking through the archives is always quite instructive, you might find the full history there. I did a quick search on "solo_singer" and found that it is far from the first time this particular issue has been brought up. This discussion from 2007 is quite similar to what we are doing here and a proposal to bring in a new value for singer-instrumentalist was defeated, but then again, consensus can change. – IbLeo (talk) 06:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the archive reference; I've used it to try and recruit the two main proponents for the change in 2007 into the current argument. We'll see if they chime in... Doc9871 (talk) 07:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
- chime*. As I said back in 2007, I think it'd be great to have a separate category, since there are plenty of artists who are not just singers or instrumentalists, but in fact are both. I don't care how this affects the colors; I leave that in your capable hands. In any case, I am sure that whatever consensus is reached will be just fine - it's not like this has been a constant frustration for me for the last two years. I hardly ever do articles on musicians anyway. Thanks for notifying me of the new discussion, though. Cheers. (and Ni!). LordAmeth (talk) 07:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
(outside) i've always understood the "solo" part as meaning "this infobox is not for bands", but i'm just guessing. as for specifying exactly who fits into this new category: i'd leave it as open as possible and let "local" editors decide which infobox is suitable for the particular artist they're writing about - something along the lines of "performers who make notable professional use of both voice and an instrument or instruments" Sssoul (talk) 06:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Discography
I was just curious but what are the possibilities and logistics of creating some sort of link to separate discography pages? ONEder Boy (talk) 01:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- A detailed discography can be a separate article, and the artist's article can have a short version with a hatnote to the discog article. See Pink Floyd#Discography for example. Is this what you are looking for? --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 02:04, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Clarification needed
What are the "exceptional cases" that a disbanded group's members would be listed as Current_members, rather than Past_members? Is it meant to be done when there were current members as well as former members when the group disbanded, or is it based on something else? I really think the description for this label should be clarified in the documentation. Eugeniu Bmsg 06:26, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- If you want the truth (but don't tell anyone I said so), the box for The Beatles should list all members as "past", but the Beatles WikiProject decided they wanted to opt out of that rule. We got tired of being asked why one of the most popular artists doesn't follow the artist infobox rule (not that I'm complaining about you asking!), so we changed the rule to say there can be exceptions. Actually, that's the exception: consensus of an artist's WikiProject (or article talk page). --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 13:22, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree w/ Knight on this one. "Exceptional cases" seems to mean "when editors of a particular article are very passionate about keeping certain members of a group listed more prominently than others". It's true of both The Beatles and Nirvana (band), and possible some other articles. While I'm sure we can all agree that the most well-known lineups of both these bands are certainly the most notable, the infobox isn't equipped to convey the idea of "highly notable vs. not-so-notable", it's only set up to convey "current vs. former", and obviously for a disbanded group all the members would be former. --IllaZilla (talk) 17:24, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Please do away with Associated Acts
The "Associated Acts" field is misused and abused 99% of the time on Wikipedia and really serves no purpose in an infobox. I implore anyone here to take a random sample of 20 different musician biographies and see just how poorly it is being handled. There are times when the best solution to a problem on Wikipedia is corrections through editing, but in this specific case the "Associated Acts" field is nothing more than a super-magnet for trivial and loosely related artists by the dozens, cluttering up an infobox. That is exactly what we're aiming not to do in the infobox. JBsupreme (talk) 18:12, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- We did rewrite the instructions for this section earlier this year. It's not likely that many old articles were changed to conform to the new instructions, so that may be what you are seeing. At that time, we did not notice such a great abuse of that field that made it unusable. Please provide some examples, and feel free to change any that need fixing. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 03:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
- The current instructions are pretty mucky I feel... too ambiguously defined. :( JBsupreme (talk) 21:48, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- With all due respect, you're not saying what is specifically wrong, or what articles are using the parm incorrectly and why. The rules were clarified, and show how the field should be used, with a list of do's and don'ts, so I don't see how it can be vague. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 22:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- The current instructions are pretty mucky I feel... too ambiguously defined. :( JBsupreme (talk) 21:48, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- Okay. Test case: Take a sampling of 20 miscellaneous artists from various genres who listed Associated Acts in the infobox. Are they being utilized correctly or not? If not, why not. I'm interested to see what results you get. JBsupreme (talk) 23:41, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- I can't help but notice no one is interested. JBsupreme (talk) 18:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry JB, but this is like when an editor objects to removal of uncited claims by saying we could probably find proof if we used google to search other websites (the point being, that's the job of the person who inserts the content). I haven't come across a big problem with the use of this field in the articles I read and edit. If you have, let us know which articles, and we can help fix those. If you can't provide examples as suggested, I'm not sure you are justified in thinking there is such a serious problem as to call for the parm's removal. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 23:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
(indentation reset)
Okay, interesting response. I'll take the bait. Here's a random sampling of articles which I believe are mis-using / abusing the Associated Acts field. What is the opinion of others who are reading this talk page? 40 Glocc, Bishop Lamont, Crooked I, C-Bo, Daz Dillinger, DJ Skee. I could go on, but I'd like some input first. JBsupreme (talk) 05:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- Absolutely should NOT delete the parameter. Abuse of a parameter needs to be dealt with on a "case-by-case" basis. Should we eliminate the "Genre" parameter because of the endless edit wars concerning that issue? Eliminating parameters "outright" is not the way... Doc9871 (talk) 07:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- Uhh, can you answer my question please or NOT reply below the part where I'm asking a question? Please refactor or move your non-response. JBsupreme (talk) 07:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- "Non-response" - The answer to your question is... "No, there is no chance of the incomplete pseudo-proposal (that you may be attempting to suggest?) passing." I don't really see the need to "refactor"(?) or move my "non-response" anywhere - interesting terminology. I suspect you may want only opinions that agree with you. That is not WP... Doc9871 (talk) 08:12, 8 December 2009 (UTC)