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Neutrality/Subjectivity/Balance
"It is important to recognise [sic] that everybody has bias. Whether it is the systemic bias of demographics or a political opinion, few people will edit subjects in which they have no interest. Bias is not in and of itself a problem in editors, only in articles." Wikipedia Policy
"There's no such thing as objectivity...Everybody with any philosophical sophistication knows that." WP:NPOV
Power and Knowledge: "Power is based on knowledge and makes use of knowledge; on the other hand, power reproduces knowledge by shaping it in accordance with its anonymous intentions." "According to this understanding, knowledge is never neutral, as it determines force relations." from: power-knowledge in reference to Foucault's theories.
"Remember: an editor with a self-evident interest in the matter turning up on the talk page is an indication that they are playing it straight." WP:COI
I believe when Wikipedia uses the word "neutral", these things are meant:
- (1) "non-judgmental" (and lacking harshness, nastiness and strongly slanted language)
- (2) statement of facts established by evidence
- (3) opinions, interpretations, theories, etc. are attributed to experts (or VIPs) or groups of experts; their opinions are either described or put in well chosen quotes. This is done instead of stating the theory in the text as a fact (e.g. "The universe was the result of the big bang." That would be attributed to an adherent of the theory.)
- (4) striving for the inclusion of and ideally a balance of multiple perspectives.
Webster defines the adj. neutral as: "not engaged on either side; specifically : not aligned with a political or ideological grouping " [1]
These are all good goals. The challenge is (4) especially "balance". Creationists would be unlikely to present Darwin's theory on "neutral" terms in church (or probably anywhere else). Scientists have objected strongly to having creationism taught side by side with Darwin. The adherents to either theory believe so strongly their method for finding truth is the only reliable method (one the bible, the other the scientific method), it is an outrage to have the other view--which for them is undeniably FALSE--presented on equal footing. In fact, they would prefer to have the other view put in the category, "the tiny majority", the flat-earth category. That's when there's a problem.
The problem is that putting two theories side by side is actually not neutral--an attitude, assessment, bias, etc. is implicit: It suggests the two theories are worth roughly equal consideration. Some will be deeply offended and vehemently disagree with that, and insist one view should not be considered AT ALL. Take a look at the Attack on Pearl Harbor page and whether it was a "surprise" or not. To put on an additional view that experts have established advanced-knowledge is as heretical to certain maintainers of the page as the players in the Darwin/Creationism dispute above.
Ultimately, balance is so subjective, I do not think there is any way to have an article be balanced for everyone, and the more controversial the fewer percent of people will believe the article is fair or balanced. My suggestion for dealing with this conundrum is that especially with controversial subjects, it is better to be more inclusive of multiple perspectives, giving each camp a real opportunity to state their case and provide their evidence, rather than using the "flat earth" censorship method. [Copernicus] was in the Flat Earth camp. Nearly all the experts agreed he was dead wrong.
Short Bio
"Contributing signed-in users may use their user subspace to publish short autobiographies within the bounds of good taste and compatible with the purpose of working on the encyclopedia." WP:COI
"Some editors declare an interest in a particular topic area. They do this in various ways. Many Wikipedians show their allegiances and affiliations on their user pages." WP:COI
Mainstream Media
I don't think what is or is not covered by the mainstream media should be the bar that determines what makes facts eligible for inclusion in Wikipedia. It has been well established that the mainstream media is biased. If you want sources for that, let me know. For example, see Noam Chomsky and search for "mass media". See also the movie "Manufacturing Consent." (I would recommend this over the book. Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees when he argues on paper. However, his citations and evidence are impeccable.)
From the Lennar Discussion Page
- The fact that this board passed a resolution and posted a notice on it's website is not really relevant to the article. If this fact were important, it would be picked up by a reliable, secondary source (such as CNN or the New York Times). * * * Jehochman Talk 21:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
- You make it sound like CNN is an unbiased source. Nothing could be further from the truth. Since when does the corporate owned media get to decide what is true and what is not true? Or what is newsworthy and what is not? Or is it truth only that which money can buy? Does Wikipedia believe in that principle?--David Tornheim (talk) 21:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Epistimology
Let me quote from the beginning of Wikipolicy WP:UNDUE "Undue Weight", I will quote the beginning here.
- NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, a view of a distinct minority.
- We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material ...
- This is an interesting policy, one, I must confess, I find a quite puzzling and virtually unenforceable: a seemingly democratic definition of what is believed on a topic as if all the beliefs were part of some binary system of discrete concepts (A, B, C, D) that either are or not believed and the "experts" on each topic have neatly divided the terrain of their subject and pretty much agree it can be divided just that way (A, B, C, D). All lay people have to do is make a complete list of all the experts and count how many of each has pledged their belief or non-belief in each of the discrete camps A, B, C, D, and we know just how much text to apportion to each viewpoint. For democratic purposes each expert regardless of experience will have the same count (or will the count be weighted by years of experience in the field?)
- Somehow, I just don't think it is so straightforward and I'm thankful for that.
- The first opening line makes sense--to put out major viewpoints, especially those that have been well articulated by those who know the subject intimately. But the next line gets fuzzy fast: "Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all"...I wonder about that. Often, I have found, it is the "minority" views that are both the most interesting and most elucidating of the "majority views" by comparison and contrast, and when combined with the majority views are in total more likely to help the reader understand the complexity of the issue and wealth of perspectives available on it. After all, we learn from our mistakes.
- This policy makes some sense if there is a wealth of information and high quality research, research that is verifiable, with, for example, repeatable hypothesis testing on the subject, such as in some scientific issues or the nature of particle movement, especially when the subject is somewhat objective in nature or quantifiable and measurable, like the movement of particles. But most of truth is, for better or for worse, not discrete and not measurable.
- Some serious problems come up immediately in trying to define a MAJORITY or MINORITY view. How do you determine whether two views are "the same". It is rare that any two authors (or "experts") express their opinions in quite the same way, have the same emphasis or interest or depth of knowledge. Each often has their own focus. They will often concede subjectivity in their views and values. Freud and Adler for example had very similar views, but many were different as well. If you had all of Freud's followers and all of Adler's followers who had spent years in the profession, brought them all together, how do you determine the "majority" view. I don't think it exists or that it can be reliably determined. The "majority" view is a subjective view determined by the observer. It is true these professionals might come to some agreement on some issues but the more interesting topics are often those where competing views are expressed. Who gets to make the final decision about what the "MAJORITY" or "MINORITY" view is? Someone who is NOT AN EXPERT? I don't think this is an easy one at all to enforce because of this problem.
- And what about this case, a very common one, and certainly the case with Lennar Corporation: What do you do when there are only a limited number of experts, or no experts at all, then what is the policy? If only a handful of people really know what is going on, but the the majority of more ignorant people think they know but actually don't (of course they have their credentials--by say working for the New York Times) and simply dismiss out right those who have something correct and unique and 100% correct to say. Is it Wikipedia's intention to suppress views that are 100% true simply because the majority of "experts" thinks they know what they are talking about, but actually don't, like the way Copernicus was? I think this is actually the most common case--the case that Socrates was so interested in.
- And what happens to a highly subjective topic, such as what makes good art? or philosophy? literary criticism? These subjects often don't even have agreed upon definitions, e.g. Post-Modernism or Existentialism. Many of those labeled existentialist or post-modernists, eschewed the label and insisted that the "experts" did not understand them and were putting them in a bin they had no interest of being in--that seems like a fair argument to me. On these subjects, there often is NO MAJORITY VIEW and the experts more or less agree on that. Now what? And for better or worse, I think life is more like art than it is like science--not discrete, not a binary or discrete system of right and wrong--I think the author(s) of the above policy made an epistemological mistake in their characterization of knowledge and truth--one that becomes obvious from looking at the editing history and discussion pages of controversial topics. What is more likely are there are diverse views that experts identify themselves with or put more research and investigation into, and often these diverse views contradict each other, despite the fact that each can be solidly defended, or show things from such radically different perspectives you can't really say they are entirely true or entirely false, they simply make good logical, cogent and coherent sense. Or they are very interesting in and of themselves, for example because of their style, even if they appear logically untrue. Compare, for example, [Hegel] and [Kant] regarding the subject of subjectivity vs. objectivity--is there a majority view on either of these two authors other than that they are very hard to read???. In graduate level classes in academia, you learn a number of these diverse competing views, and you don't decide what is the CORRECT MAJORITY VIEW, you simply learn to understand and appreciate the validity and limitations of each of these views often ones the professor has a big interest in, always keeping in mind that before any of these views gained widespread interest, acceptance or repetition, that when that view first appeared were, it was, in fact, a minority or "tiny minority view" and dismissed by the "experts". The above policy seems to frown upon the value of unique and extremely well put together cogent argument with solid evidence and/or just plain good writing. It seems to instead encourage some sort of vague mushy definitions of things that are supposedly agreed on by a "majority" of "experts" creating just a shallow sense of a subject, again as if it were a binary or discrete system of things of verifiable facts, rather than a rainbow of infinite colors of beauty, which could only be appreciated by looking at the diversity of numerous well written opinions on the subject.
My Public Advocacy (NOT PAID)
I have excerpted this from the Chris Daly discussion page. The user was kind enough to do some biographical research on me and present it there. That saves me a lot of time with disclosure. I have deleted some portions that were more pertinent in the context of the discussion there. The quote about Willie Brown is deliberately slanted. I used that language because it both: (1) would help get it published (2) to make my point clear in as few words as possible. I DO NOT recommend slanted language like this on Wikipedia, except in quotes, as per Wikipedia policy of neutrality and balance.
- Dear "longtime activist" David Tornheim, co-founder of Central City Progressives, an SF political group that opposes chain stores,
- For someone who was questioning peoples' political motives only yesterday, you sure sound like an advisor from the Daly political camp today:
- \* \* \*
- ...A conversation you ... had over a couple lattes between your Stop Starbucks! and Save Harding Theater! rallies?
- A simple Google search on both of your names makes for some interesting reading: http://www.google.com/search?q=David+Tornheim+Chris+Daly
- Since you're obviously here to attempt to promote and defend your fellow "SF City Progressive", please spare us all the "I'm here to bring balance to the force" act. And your little "HEY!!! Daly's arch rival Gavin Newsom's Wiki-page is more positive! NO FAIR!!!", rant didn't make the act any more convincing.
“ | 'District Five's David Tornheim doesn't like the idea of giving the homeless bus tickets out of town:
So San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom's administration shows its "care" for the homeless by hocking[sic] one-way tickets out of town? Will the tourists also be sent packing, or is there an exception for those with disposable cash? Will Newsom roll out the welcome mat for the homeless from other towns with similar programs, or is Greyhound the long-term housing plan for them? (Letter to the Editor, SF Examiner, Oct. 27) |
” |
- Yeah, you're really here to help make things neutral alright! BillyTFried (talk) 16:34, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Dear BillyTFried: Thanks for your hard work digging up my political work. Yes, that's me indeed. I never said *I* was neutral on the subject of Chris Daly; I said that the ARTICLE was not neutral. * * * I could see real advantages for Wikipedia to require or request more disclosure/transparency (and disadvantages as well). Note that I use my real name rather than hide behind an anonymous moniker, as Wikipedia suggests you do. I'm still learning what the protocol on what you are or are not supposed to reveal about yourself, your interest in editing the article(s), etc.--Wikipedia seems to suggest NOT disclosing, despite the obvious disadvantages. In fact, in disputes, unlike a Court of law, rather than saying you are the petitioner requesting relief, you're supposed to make an anonymous request, which I find quite odd.
- --David Tornheim (talk) 20:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I think neutral means "non-judgmental" (and lacking harshness, nastiness and strongly slanted language--e.g. my comments about the Mayor--they were deliberately slanted to get it published! I don't propose that kind of language for Wikipedia.), and striving for a balance of perspectives. I'm not sure there is such a thing as truly neutral content. [I will later provide a reference for that.] --David Tornheim (talk) 21:52, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
From Lennar Corporation Discussion Page
David Tornheim is clearly using WikiPedia as a tool to advocated his political agenda with regards to Lennar. David is a neighborhood activist with a history of opposing Lennar's Hunters Point development. [Please see DT's notes below] He was a vocal proponent of the bill the San Francisco Board of Education passed a resolution concerning a proposed development by Lennar in the Hunters Point area of San Francisco. [Please see response below] He actually created the fact that his is so enraged has been removed from the article.
I applaud David's commitment to what he believes in and his advocacy. I am impressed by his tactics, including trying for historic status for a 12 unit building and trying to block parking permits to prevent the Lennar project. [Please see note below regarding writer's confusion about what was on that page.] Abrogating the Wikipedia listing about a company to spin it to his own world view, using the wikipedia listing concerning Lennar to advocate his political position and punishing a company who has actually already won a voter initiative to move forward with this project, is blatantly dishonest. Much more dishonest than a Lennar employee attempting to delete ("censor") "facts" they regard as inflammatory and prejudicial. This type of information no more belongs in WikiPedia than blatantly commercial messages from Lennar about their values, their financial data or even the number of house they have build in the last 10 years.
For the record, I have advised Lennar NOT to attempt to make edits to the wikipedia page, although they are more than ready to provide information to any neutral editor who decides to settle this matter.(talk) Jonahstein 22:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Mr. Jonahstein, Welcome to the discussion. I'm glad you can speak on behalf of Lennar so that Lennar's view of itself can have a voice in the article and the editing of the article. I think that is great that they have given you that authority so we can hear from the company, but sad you are discouraging members of the company from having any voice in the article. (Does Wikipedia have any policies about who is or is not allowed to comment on a company? Can employees comment for example? What's the policy? I certainly think they should.). I do hope you advocate for a balanced view that supports more than one perspective, both Lennar's views and other's views of the company, rather than promote censorship or an ostrich approach.
- For the record, I never claimed to be a "neutral" or disinterested observer/editor. If I didn't care about the article, I probably wouldn't have added anything. [Please see note above about neutrality text was copied there.] * * *
- As for the material Mr. Jonahstein provided above about me, it is true I advocated to stop a Starbucks and to preserve a building at 900 Innes--that was what was on those to external links. [The other link had to do with a letter written to the Board of Supervisors about parking permits entirely unrelated to Lennar. Someone ELSE was writing to the Board about Lennar.] I'm not entirely sure that is relevant here. I have a right to speak my opinion at public Commissions and don't feel I should lose rights to edit on Wikipedia because of past freedom of expression at public forums. I don't know if I spoke against Lennar--it is possible. * * * I would appreciate if this false allegation [about the parking permits] and the other unsubstantiated allegations be removed, unless you have REAL evidence. [As of 7/30/08 these allegations have not been removed from the discussion.]
- I will say that while waiting at the Board of Supervisors for a hearing on another matter, I had to sit through 2-4 hours of testimony from concerned residents upset with Lennar regarding health issues. (I can give a citation for that easily.[Found later in the discussion]) I did not speak at that hearing. However, that hearing certainly convinced ME that there was something that the public had a right to know about it. I would be very surprised if that hearing was not covered in the mainstream media. I don't know if the Board of Education hearing was or not--probably. But like I said before, I don't think what is or is not covered by the mainstream media should be the bar that determines what makes facts eligible for inclusion in Wikipedia. It has been well established that the mainstream media is biased. If you want sources for that, let me know. Lets continue with a "good faith" discussion and resolution of these issues. Thanks for discussing it.--David Tornheim (talk) 01:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
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