Steve Smith (talk | contribs) →Wikiquette alert: agree with Egfrank |
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:Hi IZAK. I'm a volunteer at [[WP:WQA]], and I responded to [[User:Egfrank]]'s alert. I have to agree that the comments of your he/she posted there are beyond what is permissible by under [[WP:CIVIL]]. You obviously have little regard for progressive Judaism, which is your right, but it should be possible to debate Wikipedia content issues without denigrating it (in fact, it is possible, because you seem to do so quite often). Obviously I'm in no position to make any demands or impose any sanctions, but as a disinterested editor I do think that some of your comments are over the line; I hope you'll take this under advisement. |
:Hi IZAK. I'm a volunteer at [[WP:WQA]], and I responded to [[User:Egfrank]]'s alert. I have to agree that the comments of your he/she posted there are beyond what is permissible by under [[WP:CIVIL]]. You obviously have little regard for progressive Judaism, which is your right, but it should be possible to debate Wikipedia content issues without denigrating it (in fact, it is possible, because you seem to do so quite often). Obviously I'm in no position to make any demands or impose any sanctions, but as a disinterested editor I do think that some of your comments are over the line; I hope you'll take this under advisement. |
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:If you want to discuss this, please respond at [[WP:WQA]]. [[User:Sarcasticidealist|Sarcasticidealist]] ([[User talk:Sarcasticidealist|talk]]) 00:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC) |
:If you want to discuss this, please respond at [[WP:WQA]]. [[User:Sarcasticidealist|Sarcasticidealist]] ([[User talk:Sarcasticidealist|talk]]) 00:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Hi all: I have rebutted User:Egfrank's unfounded attack against me at [[Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts#Response from IZAK]]. Thanks, [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] ([[User talk:IZAK|talk]]) 10:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Thank you
Thank you very much for the award, IZAK. It means a great deal and I will truly treasure it. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
- Dear SlimVirgin: What a job you undertook, you deserve the award 100% IZAK 09:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Hi, IZAK, I hope it's OK that I'm adding this thank-you to someone else's thank-you section. I just wanted to say, er, thank you, for adding a welcome message to my talk page. As a newbie, that was a pleasant surprise. It was also helpful to get that added insight to some of the behind-the-scenes effort. --Rich Janis 13:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Dropping in and saying hi
I like the photo on your user page. lol. Very nice. Just to smile at you for being nice to everybody, I noticed. Regeane Silverwolf 03:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
- Dear Regeane Silverwolf: Thank you so much for the smile, it is greatly appreciated! IZAK 06:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Say, "Smile"!
--Trampton 16:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Trampton, thank you, IZAK 19:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Batwoman
Hey, IZAK, as I find myself being sucked deeper into WP Judaism, I was reading back through the talk page and I noticed your comments about Batwoman and an author changing details in the backstory. You might be amused to know that comic book fans have a specific term for altering established details in a storyline or character- they call it "retconning," for the ironic term "retroactive continuity." Basically, it's for the common occurrence of when they rewrite someone's backstory: "You see, Superman isn't actually from Krypton- he is a robot from a parallel universe, and always has been..." Cheers, Kaisershatner 14:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Kaisershatner: Batwoman is the least of our problems. See the list of the many fictional and acting characters at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Batwoman a fictional Jew? who are alleged to be Jewish and that still needs sourcing and verification. Thanks a lot, IZAK 07:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Anti semitism statements in AfDs
The comments in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mordechai Gafni and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aron Tendler for the nominations aren't helpful at all, and will only immediately poison discussion. Its not anti-Semitic for us to have such articles at all; no more than having articles on Christian priests convicted of rape are anti-Christian. Please don't do that again. • Lawrence Cohen 18:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- Izak, I agree that it's not helpful to raise the drama or heat during such discussions. You are certainly entitled to your view about notability (etc), but please be more guarded about how you characterize (directly or by implication) editors who create/edit such articles or disagree on notability. Thanks. HG | Talk 18:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi Lawrence: Thank you for contacting me about your concerns. While you are entitled to your views and conclusions, I am also entitled to mine, even though you may not like them. You choose one sentence from a longer AfD proposal and make a mountain out of a molehill. I should not be criticized for having the courage of my convictions when I see a string of abuses that are evidently motivated by ill-will, and quite often is is a form of antisemitism, or do you think that such things only exist in the "real" world but not on Wikipedia? I rarely mention the issue of antisemtism directly, but in the recent cases it was just too shocking. You may call Christian priests anything you want, but allegations of sexual misconduct in themselves do not make anyone notable, especially if not fully proven in courts of law and based on scandal articles in newspapers. IZAK (talk) 22:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- Is Blau and anti-semeite? Lobojo (talk) 00:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- No, are you? IZAK (talk)
- How nice of you to ask. I think you have made your mind up, am I wrong? Lobojo (talk) 02:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- Are you an Uncle Leo? Oh and evidently motivated by ill-will, is that WP:EMBIW? Some kind of corollary to WP:AGF? Lobojo (talk) 02:18, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- Lobojo: I have not made up my mind about you, but because you choose to live (that is, write) dangerously, you come across with a hugely negative and destructive attitude to Orthodox personalities. You seem to have a hate of Orthodoxy, am I wrong? I would like to understand you better. Oh, I don't know if I am Uncle Leo, how about if I told you I was the Baal Shem Tov, would that make me win your confidence? IZAK (talk) 02:29, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- Are you an Uncle Leo? Oh and evidently motivated by ill-will, is that WP:EMBIW? Some kind of corollary to WP:AGF? Lobojo (talk) 02:18, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- How nice of you to ask. I think you have made your mind up, am I wrong? Lobojo (talk) 02:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- No, are you? IZAK (talk)
Hi Izak, and thanks. It just seemed that the statements lacked good faith. I don't see a problem with articles on anyone of any religious background, Jew as myself, or otherwise. Obviously anti-Semetism is real, but so is wrong-minded hate towards Christians, and other religions. Implying it in an AfD just isn't really appropriate, but we'll just agree to disagree. I gave up on religious fights ages ago. • Lawrence Cohen 05:25, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Lawrence: I do not hate anyone and certainly not religions. Often, people confuse discussion and argumentation with other things and draw the wrong conclusions. If anyone has a specific gripe then they should be explicit, as I try to be, and if anything is wrong or seems wrong, then it shoulod be answered or refuted using logic, facts, and good language. Be well, IZAK (talk) 06:27, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Just to let you know, an anon IP has been revising the article, and lowering the Auschwitz death toll by half. I have reverted him, but he is now pushing on the admin notice board to have the Auschwitz article unprotected. Jeffpw (talk) 21:18, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Jeff: These kinds of abuses and revisionism (it's actually Holocaust denial at work) go on all the time. Keep up your struggle against lies and distortions! IZAK (talk) 22:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
- I said as much here. Perhaps you might want to weigh in as well. At least one admin thinks the article should lose its protection. Jeffpw (talk) 23:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
You make an offensive accusation against me in the AFD for Gil Student. It is offensive and is unwarranted. I don't see where you get off assuming that I would nominate someone for deletion just because I disagree with him. This is expecially true given that I have never nominated anyone for deletion, and there plenty of objectionalbe characters with articles dedicated to them here on Wikipedia. --Meshulam (talk) 01:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Meshulam: I made no "offensive accusation against (you)" anywhere. What I did say is that it is a bad faith nomination: "This is a bad-faith nomination by someone opposed to Gil Student's position" (how else to understand your words?) since you undercut, miscast and mischarectrize Gil Student as "he has a blog, and that's about it" when the fact of the matter is that Student is a key player in online discussions relating to Modern Orthodox Judaism in particular. Indeed he is a rarity, and stands out above any other bloggers about Judaism, very unusual in the relatively new age of the WWW and the Internet. See the rest of my response at [1]. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 01:59, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yes it is a bad faith nomination, again by a partisan Chabad editor. If the article is deleted that is fine with me, as I will rebuild it from the scratch from the 30 of so newspaper cuttings I have relating to him. Then this game will stop. Lobojo (talk) 02:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you Lobojo, at least we agree on this one. IZAK (talk) 02:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yes it is a bad faith nomination, again by a partisan Chabad editor. If the article is deleted that is fine with me, as I will rebuild it from the scratch from the 30 of so newspaper cuttings I have relating to him. Then this game will stop. Lobojo (talk) 02:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
follow-up
I am somewhat startled at your apparent attack upon the integrity of another WP editor, in this case Lobojo, during another AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aron Tendler. You make direct charges of anti-semitism against him for the introduction of an article, based upon no evidence that I can see, except that he wrote one or more article(s) about some few disgraced rabbis, along with his editing and article on other notable and estimable Jewish religious figures. I warn you about NPA, and if i see a repeat of this, I shall block you. DGG (talk) 21:29, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi DGG: You are correct that articles about "disgraced rabbis" were written but you do not appear to be concerned that it was not done in a WP:NPOV manner. A subject of any biography deserves fairness, especially if he is a living person who is in the midst of legal problems. Can you point to the "direct charges of anti-semitism against him"? As I do not recall addressing anything to him personally. I do not know him and I do not care what he is. But if an editor introduces a series of one-sided articles that only focus on serious allegations against people, in this case they happen to be Jews and rabbis, that are in no way real biographies, just muckraking & yellow journalism-type pieces that border on WP:LIBEL then I expressed "the hope" that it was not because of antisemitism. Can you tell me what is wrong with those worries and conclusions? Thanks, IZAK (talk) 06:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
- By the way, DGG: You cannot be part of debates and dicussions we both are in and then threaten to "block me" because you disagree with me. See Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Disputes: "Administrators must not block users with whom they are engaged in a content dispute; instead, they should report the problem to other administrators" and WP:COI. See also Wikipedia:Administrators#Administrator abuse: "Administrators can be removed if they misuse their powers...." I am very disappointed that you can violate such basic rules and I hope that I will not have to commence proceedings against you. Thanks again, IZAK (talk) 07:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
- I haven't blocked you quite yet. At the time of my comment I did not think I would be much involved in discussing the articles, because I had not yet noticed the other similar deletions you had proposed. If you think I am too much involved, i will indeed let somebody else do it. If you continue to make accusations of anti-semitism such as: "There is an old saying that "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck" so when you create two articles in a row in order to primarily attack the subjects it is worrying. Think about it. There is surely a better and more positive way to create NPOV articles, and in this case the evidence is that you did it to attack the subject rather than deal with it in a fair NPOV fashion. How else do you think Der Stürmer attacked Jews?" I am sure any administrator here will do so. You would do well to avoid it by discussing the articles, and not the motives for writing them. DGG (talk) 08:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi DGG: Thanks for getting back to me. You obviously do not grasp how offensive and serious the subject matter of those controversial biographies about rabbis that "got caught with their pants down" are and how many people have and can get hurt from them in real life. I was very carefull not to call anyone an "antisemite" which is your charge and you still have not proven it in any way. I was using by way of description and explanation that if an editor engages in editorial behavior whereby he creates a seried of attack articles against rabbis and Orthodox Judaism, then that pattern of editorial behavior must be questioned and a conclusion about antisemitism at work may be drawn, just as one would take a closer look at the working of a troll or a "Bastard Operator From Hell" (see Category:Internet slang for more like this) and perhaps even cyber-bullying of Jews at work. Any editor who values their area of knowledge and expertise will not be amused by articles that constantly attack without adding anything useful. Wikipedia judges aricles and editors and has ways of dealing with problematic ones, is that not why you chose to contact me now? Again, I repeat, I am very careful with my words, and nowhere have I called anyone antisemites as such, what I have done in this case, and it is a rarity, is that I have brought the attention of the offending editor to the fact that the what he is writing about and the way he is presenting it, does look a lot like the way antisemitism rears its ugly head. Perhaps you need to read up on some history. See The "Untermensch" in Nazi propaganda and policy; Category:Antisemitic publications; Category:Antisemitic canards these are real concerns. IZAK (talk) 08:32, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
- Please do not assume what I do or do not know, or what my background may be, and don't assume it for anyone else either. I agree the subject matter is serious, and what the rabbis are doing is offensive. That's why the subject is notable. To cover up crimes in the name of protecting from antisemitism is not my idea of objectivity. I hold with telling the full truth, even if it incidentally might help an enemy. I see no reason to protect members of one group from the consequence of their actions more than other people--if anything, such an approach fuels prejudice. At AfD, I do just judge articles not editors; doing otherwise might be incompatible with objectivity. We seem to disagree on that last point. DGG (talk) 19:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi DGG: I actually agree with everything you say here. But please note in order to "cover up crimes" there must first be serious proven crimes that have been certified as such in a court of law by judges or by juries, and if that happens then only the crimes that that person was convicted of should be the ones to be put up front and center. The Torah itself does not hide the failings and sins of people, so neither should we, but that does not mean that every local rabbi or priest or lady teacher who goes to bed with a congregant is now "notable" for a "biogarphy" on Wikipedia! In the cases of the recent AfD's three rabbis (Aron and Mordecai Tendler & Mordechai Gafni) they have not gone to trial and so far they have not faced any legal proceedings so that's why the articles violate WP:LIBEL as they stand, even though the rabbis have resigned their posts due to public demands, but it is not for Wikipedia or any editor writing articles to act as a "holier than thou" investigaor, prosecutor, judge, and executioner of matters that remain allegations and speculation in the media and have not gone to court, and there are always at least two sides to any story, especially if it is a matter of two consenting adults who decide to have (forbidden) sex together, if that indeed happened. Sleeping with underlings or bosses is rife everywhere, and these guys got caught and are being held to a "higher standard" because they are rabbis, but honestly they are small fry and their are much more notable sex scandals that were important to history. Who is to know the truth in such matters? Not unless there is an audio or video tape available (like the Nixon tapes) can anyone really know what happened in the middle of the night or behind closed doors. Fairness says, do not pass judgment and to repeat, we here at Wikipedia do not function as scandal mongers. In the case of Rabbi Lanner, he was convicted for allegedly touching the breasts of two of his students as he brushed by them. He did not rape them and he did not flash. By this standard, half of Italy's men and three quarters of French men would be liable for conviction and jail time for all the times they pinched the behinds or whatever else of passing females. Do you honestly believe that every time a clergyman or any person in what should be a relatively responsible position is denounced for commiting a sex act not condoned by society and it gets in the media and the media love anything to do with sex, because "sex sells," that that person automatically is "notable" for biographies on Wikipedia? I hope you will see the fallacy and futilty of such an approach. IZAK (talk) 01:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
- Please do not assume what I do or do not know, or what my background may be, and don't assume it for anyone else either. I agree the subject matter is serious, and what the rabbis are doing is offensive. That's why the subject is notable. To cover up crimes in the name of protecting from antisemitism is not my idea of objectivity. I hold with telling the full truth, even if it incidentally might help an enemy. I see no reason to protect members of one group from the consequence of their actions more than other people--if anything, such an approach fuels prejudice. At AfD, I do just judge articles not editors; doing otherwise might be incompatible with objectivity. We seem to disagree on that last point. DGG (talk) 19:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi DGG: Thanks for getting back to me. You obviously do not grasp how offensive and serious the subject matter of those controversial biographies about rabbis that "got caught with their pants down" are and how many people have and can get hurt from them in real life. I was very carefull not to call anyone an "antisemite" which is your charge and you still have not proven it in any way. I was using by way of description and explanation that if an editor engages in editorial behavior whereby he creates a seried of attack articles against rabbis and Orthodox Judaism, then that pattern of editorial behavior must be questioned and a conclusion about antisemitism at work may be drawn, just as one would take a closer look at the working of a troll or a "Bastard Operator From Hell" (see Category:Internet slang for more like this) and perhaps even cyber-bullying of Jews at work. Any editor who values their area of knowledge and expertise will not be amused by articles that constantly attack without adding anything useful. Wikipedia judges aricles and editors and has ways of dealing with problematic ones, is that not why you chose to contact me now? Again, I repeat, I am very careful with my words, and nowhere have I called anyone antisemites as such, what I have done in this case, and it is a rarity, is that I have brought the attention of the offending editor to the fact that the what he is writing about and the way he is presenting it, does look a lot like the way antisemitism rears its ugly head. Perhaps you need to read up on some history. See The "Untermensch" in Nazi propaganda and policy; Category:Antisemitic publications; Category:Antisemitic canards these are real concerns. IZAK (talk) 08:32, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
- I haven't blocked you quite yet. At the time of my comment I did not think I would be much involved in discussing the articles, because I had not yet noticed the other similar deletions you had proposed. If you think I am too much involved, i will indeed let somebody else do it. If you continue to make accusations of anti-semitism such as: "There is an old saying that "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck" so when you create two articles in a row in order to primarily attack the subjects it is worrying. Think about it. There is surely a better and more positive way to create NPOV articles, and in this case the evidence is that you did it to attack the subject rather than deal with it in a fair NPOV fashion. How else do you think Der Stürmer attacked Jews?" I am sure any administrator here will do so. You would do well to avoid it by discussing the articles, and not the motives for writing them. DGG (talk) 08:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Category:Surnames
I have started a discussion at Category talk:Surnames about Category:Surnames which I hope will be able to address the issues in common to the surnames category tree, without implicating issues particular to any one group of surnames. I'm posting this notice to all participants of the 11/11 CFD. --Lquilter (talk) 20:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Aron Tendler
I've brought this to the BLP noticeboard, as it seems a clear violation of policy to report mere rumors about a living person. Since nobody listened at the AFD discussion, I figured I would take it to a page where people do give a damn about such things. Jeffpw (talk) 21:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
- Just to update you, the defamatory text has now been removed per WP:BLP. Jeffpw (talk) 21:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Jeff: If any article that is just a negative amd libelous attack piece survives as a "biography" then it must be re-written in a totally WP:NPOV way to include as many positive and real accomplishments of the subject, based on sources and citations, and any allegations may be placed in very summarized form in "Controversy" sections. Wikipedia is not a court of law and it is certainly not a pillory nor a place to conduct vedettas of any sort against anyone, not just Jewish subjects. Thanks for your watchfulness in this regard and hoping that others will follow your positive example. IZAK (talk) 08:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Centuries by period
Several 'centuries by period'-type categories that you created have been nominated for deletion. You are invited to participate in the deletion discussion located at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 24. – Black Falcon (Talk) 01:50, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Black Falcon: Thank you for having the courtesy and taking the time to let me know. IZAK (talk) 08:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
problematic editor
Hello, after some problem with a contributor, I found that he re-created on 23/11 an article you had asked for deletion : [2], commenting "redirect, for now" and I assume it had been deleted here : Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewish subversion. Ceedjee (talk) 16:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
- I marked that page for PROD and it looks like it's gone, for now. Yossiea (talk) 21:47, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Yossiea: Thanks for contacting me. It looks like it's been taken care of, at least for now. IZAK (talk) 01:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikiquette alert
Attacking me instead of discussing the sourcing issues for Relationships_between_American_Jewish_religious_movements is not constructive. In light of your latest post here and past history, I have come to conclusion that you are simply incapable of acting in a civil manner towards me. I have expressed my concerns over on the Wikiquette alert page[3]. I am tired of being treated this way merely for making good faith suggestions about how we can improve the quality of articles or reduce the research burden on ourselves by working with others. Egfrank (talk) 13:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi IZAK. I'm a volunteer at WP:WQA, and I responded to User:Egfrank's alert. I have to agree that the comments of your he/she posted there are beyond what is permissible by under WP:CIVIL. You obviously have little regard for progressive Judaism, which is your right, but it should be possible to debate Wikipedia content issues without denigrating it (in fact, it is possible, because you seem to do so quite often). Obviously I'm in no position to make any demands or impose any sanctions, but as a disinterested editor I do think that some of your comments are over the line; I hope you'll take this under advisement.
- If you want to discuss this, please respond at WP:WQA. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi all: I have rebutted User:Egfrank's unfounded attack against me at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts#Response from IZAK. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 10:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)