Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 1 discussion(s) to User talk:Robertinventor/Archive 5) (bot |
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: I gave it, for a historically significant microscope. You don't seem to have read it as you said it was not an optical microscope in your last comment. It explains clearly that it is. Please re-read it. If that is not enough, sorry I just don't know what else you need, and may need to bail out of this conversation unless you can explain a bit more clearly what it is you want. It's probably something I'm missing, but if so, sorry, I just haven't understood what else it is that you are asking for, not yet. Thanks! [[User:Robert C. Walker|Robert C. Walker]] ([[User talk:Robert C. Walker|talk]]) 01:43, 14 April 2017 (UTC) |
: I gave it, for a historically significant microscope. You don't seem to have read it as you said it was not an optical microscope in your last comment. It explains clearly that it is. Please re-read it. If that is not enough, sorry I just don't know what else you need, and may need to bail out of this conversation unless you can explain a bit more clearly what it is you want. It's probably something I'm missing, but if so, sorry, I just haven't understood what else it is that you are asking for, not yet. Thanks! [[User:Robert C. Walker|Robert C. Walker]] ([[User talk:Robert C. Walker|talk]]) 01:43, 14 April 2017 (UTC) |
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::After reading your discussion of how you think an SEM works, I assume, although I don't know for sure, that you're trolling me, but, as far as the RFC goess, you're just another "support" without a source. --[[Special:Contributions/2600:387:6:807:0:0:0:AE|2600:387:6:807:0:0:0:AE]] ([[User talk:2600:387:6:807:0:0:0:AE|talk]]) 04:59, 14 April 2017 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:59, 14 April 2017
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On latitude
I have moved your historical section out of Latitude to a new page History of latitude measurements. I hope you will be prepared to help expanding and improving that page. Peter Mercator (talk) 13:55, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
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Summary of the extensive overview of your already very extensive contributions to Talk:Four Noble Truths
Robert, you've summarized enough at Talk:Four Noble Truths; no need to do it again. I've reverted your latest additions. All the best, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:27, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- @Joshua Jonathan:, I know I did many posts in the past in a short period of time, of just a few days but one short new post after four months didn't seem excessive. Since I wrote my last post there, I have had plenty of time to reflect on what I wrote, and I have of course discussed it a fair bit off wiki and felt that with the help of some distance I could summarize the main points more clearly than I did before. So, I thought that was enough reason to do a new post.
- I see someone else has reverted your edit of the talk page. Deleting a new post by an editor you have previously argued with on a talk page seems rather unusual especially without prior discussion with them about whether it should be deleted. As I just said, I feel it was okay to post there. However, having posted, I don't think it is appropriate for me to debate about whether my talk page comment there should be kept or not. If other editors decide as a consensus that it should be deleted, well so be it. I'm happy to let the comment stand on its own and be its own defense if it is needed or not. So I'm posting this just to say that. Robert Walker (talk) 00:36, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
- I've never seen anything like this on wikipedia, a talk page with just about all the comments collapsed and the collapsing done by editors with the opposing view on the article content to the person whose comments were collapsed. Robert Walker (talk) 01:59, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
- Robert, you asked me before to tell you, in a kind way, when your edits were crossing a line. They are, again. We've discussed this over and over again. So, please stop, okay? Just drop it. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:05, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
- Please see my post on your talk page [1] Robert Walker (talk) 11:09, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Ultramicroscope
Can you explain to me why you are working so hard to have ultramicroscope in the lead of the microscope article? No one can provide a source saying it is a major tyle of microscope, including yourself, but, in spite of a lack of evidence, so many editors want this. Maybe you can explain it to me? --2600:387:6:805:0:0:0:5D (talk) 02:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- BTW I am logged out of my main account but got a notice saying there's a message on my talk page - that's why I'm signing as a different user. I am doing that because of a Buddhism discussion - I want to avoid notifications on that for a while as I feel I have said a lot in a short time and need to give others a chance to reply and discuss without me for a while. The thing is if you see a red notification you then want to read it and then when you read it, then you think of a reply - and before you know it, if you are a quick typist like me, you may find you have replied, without even giving it much thought about whether perhaps you have already written a lot that day already.
- However, I have no reason to avoid notifications on the microscope discussion at all. I have hardly written overmuch there :).
- So anyway - I don't feel that it should mention ultramicroscope. But it could be a way forward to satisfy the ones who want the term mentioned. So it was a compromise since otherwise it looks like it will end in a deadlock and nothing will happen. So, my reasoning there is, that it is not currently an important microscope. But it was historically important from 1902 to the invention of the electron microscope in the 1930s. Back then, apparently, it was the only method available to observe particles smaller than 200 nm in size. So that makes it historically pretty important in the history of microscopy. Surely not as important as an electron microscope, at least not for us now. But enough so that it is understandable if it is mentioned in a historical paragraph in the lede of the article, not as absurd as mentioning it as one of the main types of modern microscope as it does at present. It was just a suggestion. There are good sources saying it was a major type of microscope from the 1900s through to the 1930s. Robert C. Walker (talk) 03:03, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- First, there's no deadlock. One supporter is rambling, and the other cannot provide any sources. I pointed this out before, but you keep talking about the deadlock. Why?
- Second, Wikipedia requires reliable sources. There are none, because it's not true. So, an unsupported statement will not be kept in the lead of the article. This is not a compromise situation, that some alternative fact, unsupported, should be in Wikipedia.
- This isn't the microscopy article, it's the microscope article, so your arguments about its importance in microscopy are not in the right place.
- So, can you provide a source, rather than telling me they exist? Just one.
- You are currently the one who is trying to put it in the lead, there's no deadlock to keep it there, there's no need for compromise. --2600:387:6:805:0:0:0:5D (talk) 03:55, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- I've just replied in the discussion itself.[2]. In summary: I gave a source that shows it was a major type of microscope in the early twentieth century. It doesn't seem to be one any more. I could be persuaded either way on inclusion of it in a historical section in the lede. If it is included, my suggested paragraph should be expanded to say more about the historical development of other types of microscope. I think it does deserve mention in the historical section later on. I am opposed to its mention as a major present day instrument in the lede. I'll add this as an extra paragraph to summarize what I said there :). Thanks! And sorry for the confusion. Robert Walker (talk) 11:53, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- Please quote the source that says what you say it says. I don't see it. --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B5 (talk) 15:44, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- I've just replied in the discussion itself.[2]. In summary: I gave a source that shows it was a major type of microscope in the early twentieth century. It doesn't seem to be one any more. I could be persuaded either way on inclusion of it in a historical section in the lede. If it is included, my suggested paragraph should be expanded to say more about the historical development of other types of microscope. I think it does deserve mention in the historical section later on. I am opposed to its mention as a major present day instrument in the lede. I'll add this as an extra paragraph to summarize what I said there :). Thanks! And sorry for the confusion. Robert Walker (talk) 11:53, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry for the broken link. Have replied there now with the correct link to the article. Robert C. Walker (talk) 16:12, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- I already had the article. I don't see it saying, "the ultramicroscope is a major tyoe of microscope," or some variation. Please provide a quote. --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B5 (talk) 16:15, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- We're at 6000 words or so, a dozen editors, and weeks of discussion about one unsourced word in the article lead. If you have a quote saying it is a major type of microscope, please provide it, we'll source it in the lead and move on. --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B5 (talk) 16:31, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- Have replied on the article talk page again. I found quotes that to my mind mean it was a major type of microscope in the early C20. It was more than just a microscopy method. It involved a new stand and a new type of objective, authors at the time talk about it as a microscope, not a microscopy method. I'd call it a major type of microscope back then, historical. Your mileage may vary :). Robert C. Walker (talk) 16:59, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- Okay, I concede, it's not an optical microscope, it's a completely different type of microscope. Now, please source that, that it's not an optical microscope. And, oil immersion lenses are patented. Oil immersion is a major optical microscopy method today, unlike the very unfamiliar ultramicroscope, but no one is arguing to throw "oil immersion microscopes" in the lead. --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B5 (talk)• —Preceding undated comment added 17:13, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- Have replied on the article talk page again. I found quotes that to my mind mean it was a major type of microscope in the early C20. It was more than just a microscopy method. It involved a new stand and a new type of objective, authors at the time talk about it as a microscope, not a microscopy method. I'd call it a major type of microscope back then, historical. Your mileage may vary :). Robert C. Walker (talk) 16:59, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry for the broken link. Have replied there now with the correct link to the article. Robert C. Walker (talk) 16:12, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Please take another look at the cite I gave.
- It is an optical microscope.
- So why aren't you trying to put it in the optical microscope article instead of the microscope article? --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B5 (talk) 21:30, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- It was a new design at the time and won its inventor a Nobel prize.
- The stand shines light at it from the side, and it observes scattered light against a dark background, unlike a normal microscope.
- The design also required a new kind of objective lens
One of its earliest uses was to study a kind of glass that has gold nanoparticles in it, which are only about 4 nm in diameter, and they used very bright sunlight to illuminate them, then it was possible to spot such tiny particles. They could see the particles moving as they were hit by nearby atoms, and the light was multi-coloured which gave them information about the size of the particles, something that back then they could do in no other way, so it was the first observation of nanoscale particles and it was done optically, and they were able to estimate the sizes of the particles. And they couldn't use a conventional optical microscope for the experiment but had to design a new microscope stand and new objective lens. It's all explained. There are other sources in google scholar. But you don't need to read them. The source I gave is all you need, but please read the source carefully.
It's my view that
- This is a historically significant optical microscope
- So why aren't you trying to put it in the optical microscope article instead of the microscope article's lead? --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B5 (talk) 21:30, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
- It was a major type of microscope in the early twentieth century - after all its invention got its inventor a Nobel prize and they didn't have many types of microscope back then
- It does not seem to be a major type of modern microscope - at least if it is then nobody has shared any evidence yet that it is
- I think it deserves mention in the historical section
- I could be persuaded either way about a mention in the lede, but if it is mentioned, as a historical microscope, not a present day microscope on the basis of the evidence so far
- If it is mentioned in the lede then the lede should have a reasonably detailed paragraph on microscopes, as this is hardly the most important microscope every invented, but it does seem interesting enough that it deserves a mention in a long lede paragraph about the history of microscopy.
Thanks! Robert C. Walker (talk) 19:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll copy this summary to the discussion, as I think it may help to put it there as well. And I'll amend my oppose vote to say this bit about it being potentially historically significant. Robert C. Walker (talk) 19:59, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Have just amended my oppose vote and also added a weak support as a historically significant microscope. That makes my vote consistent with what I say in the discussion area which should help, thanks! Robert C. Walker (talk) 20:32, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Still waiting for a source. --2600:387:6:80F:0:0:0:B5 (talk) 00:22, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
- I gave it, for a historically significant microscope. You don't seem to have read it as you said it was not an optical microscope in your last comment. It explains clearly that it is. Please re-read it. If that is not enough, sorry I just don't know what else you need, and may need to bail out of this conversation unless you can explain a bit more clearly what it is you want. It's probably something I'm missing, but if so, sorry, I just haven't understood what else it is that you are asking for, not yet. Thanks! Robert C. Walker (talk) 01:43, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
- After reading your discussion of how you think an SEM works, I assume, although I don't know for sure, that you're trolling me, but, as far as the RFC goess, you're just another "support" without a source. --2600:387:6:807:0:0:0:AE (talk) 04:59, 14 April 2017 (UTC)