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First, please remember that I am not trying to attack you, demean you, or hurt you in any way. I am only trying to protect the integrity of this project. If I did something wrong, , but remember that I am human, and I do make mistakes. Please keep your comments civil. If you vandalize this page or swear at me, you will not only decrease the likelihood of a response, your edits could get you blocked. (see WP:NPA) When posting, do not assume I know which article you are talking about. If you leave a message saying "Why did you revert me?", I will not know what you mean. If you want a response consisting of something other than "What are you talking about", please include links and, if possible, diffs in your message. At the very least, mention the name of the article or user you are concerned with. If you are blocked from editing, you cannot post here, but your talk page is most likely open for you to edit. To request a review of your block, add Administrators: If you see me do something that you think is wrong, I will not consider it wheel-warring if you undo my actions. I would, however, appreciate it if you let me know what I did wrong, so that I can avoid doing it in the future. |
You can email me from this link but in the interests of Wiki-transparency, please message me on this page unless there are pressing reasons to do otherwise.
Comments which I find to be uncivil, full of vulgarities, flame baiting, or that are excessively rude may be deleted without response. If I choose not to answer, that's my right; don't keep putting it back. I'll just delete and get annoyed at you.
University of Kansas "Ancient Central America" course assignment
This is just a heads-up to let you know that I'm once again having students create Wikipedia entries for a course this semester. I've posted the information for them here:
Dwapara Yuga / Yoekteshwar
Hi Doug, I'm Robert ( RobCZ ) and I think the last correction must have been five years ago on the particular year we are in according to this interpretation of Yoekteshwar. Swami Yoekteshwar wrote his Holy Science in 194 Dwapara ( 1894 ), thus currently we are in 316 Dwapara. Kind regards Robert, Amsterdam, Holland
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.— Woodroar (talk) 16:57, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I Did not Call anyone a Troll; Someone accused me of trolling (falsely)
Doug, you posted on my user talk page that I had accused someone of trolling. But I never did that. Someone came there an accused me of trolling. But I never used the term. Now are we all equal on Wikipedia? Will you now post a warning to the one who said I was trolling for having made a personal attack on me? (PeacePeace (talk) 22:33, 24 July 2016 (UTC))
- Responded on editor's talk page. Doug Weller talk 17:57, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Please comment on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). Legobot (talk) 04:31, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Wikidata weekly summary #219
Request
Dear Doug. I translated a small part of an interview into English fto aid discussion on the talk page of the article 2016 Nice attack. That was because non-French speaking editors were unable to read the content and parts of it had been used as sources in the article. My translation was removed as a copy-vio in this edit.[1] This does not seem correct as a translation is just a parpahrase, but in a different language. I have restored my translation. How can we even discuss French language articles if editors are deleting translations in this way? The removal was made by a non-administrator. Mathsci (talk) 16:35, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Hello. Mathsci, why do you think we even bother to write an encyclopedia, if it was OK to just translate everything from other languages? Regards, Biwom (talk) 16:38, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- But sometimes we do do just that. For example Chateau of Vauvenargues is essentially a translation of a French booklet by Bruno Ely. No translation is word for word. And obviously some bits I combined, but most of the article is essentially a translation. Copyvio does not apply to translations by wikipedians. And this content was written to help other editors on the talk page. Here is another example: A solis ortus cardine. The translation form early Christian Latin was prepared by me. I had a glossary for the poem of Sedulius and two very recent English translations. But please let Dougweller reply. You have removed my translation twice.[2] Mathsci (talk) 16:57, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. If that had been a copy of an English text it would be too much, IMHO, and thus copyvio. Let's ask User:Diannaa who does a lot more copyvio work now, or see if User:Moonriddengirl is around. I'm a bit worried if we have an article that is a copy of something Bruno Ely wrote. Doug Weller talk 17:06, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks. I have actually asked Moonriddengirl, who gave a partial reply. She said that a translation of a copyright article was still a derivative work so WP:NFC still applies. Perhaps a short paragraph is OK, since its purpose it to help discussions and provide context. I'm waiting for her reply on that. I might also ask Diannaa. I had forgotten that she's a copyright expert.
- I'm not sure. If that had been a copy of an English text it would be too much, IMHO, and thus copyvio. Let's ask User:Diannaa who does a lot more copyvio work now, or see if User:Moonriddengirl is around. I'm a bit worried if we have an article that is a copy of something Bruno Ely wrote. Doug Weller talk 17:06, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- But sometimes we do do just that. For example Chateau of Vauvenargues is essentially a translation of a French booklet by Bruno Ely. No translation is word for word. And obviously some bits I combined, but most of the article is essentially a translation. Copyvio does not apply to translations by wikipedians. And this content was written to help other editors on the talk page. Here is another example: A solis ortus cardine. The translation form early Christian Latin was prepared by me. I had a glossary for the poem of Sedulius and two very recent English translations. But please let Dougweller reply. You have removed my translation twice.[2] Mathsci (talk) 16:57, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- When I went to school and university, French O-level (and Latin) was a prerequisite. But now we have this bizarre situation of editors with no knowledge of French trying to write an article on France and French issues, where in many cases the only sources are in French. The Calcutta Telegraph has been used as a source; and it turned out to be highly unreliable. For the same reason that going for an Indian meal in France is a recipe for a disaster. A Tunisian, Moroccan or Vietnamese meal will be cheap and delicious. In the UK I have had excellent Jamaican goat. Mathsci (talk) 18:49, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing#Translation has some information on this topic. Proper paraphrasing means you re-write the content into your own words: presenting the material in a different order, replacing unique phrasings, summarizing the content, etc. What you did at Talk:2016 Nice attack is translate (not paraphrase) a source article and posted it on the talk page without paraphrasing. That is not okay, as it is a copyright violation, and should not be added to any part of this wiki, not a sandbox, user talk page, article talk page, or article. The excerpt is far too large to qualify as fair use. A short excerpt would be okay, as would a summary of the key points in your own words. Sorry, — Diannaa (talk) 19:15, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks. I already did what you you suggested with my last edit describing another source.[3] As I explained to Monriddengirl, in the case of the source here, I really only needed one short paragraph. Some editors might object to hearing about a paraphrase. If that happened, they could always be advised to brush up their French. Mathsci (talk) 20:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing#Translation has some information on this topic. Proper paraphrasing means you re-write the content into your own words: presenting the material in a different order, replacing unique phrasings, summarizing the content, etc. What you did at Talk:2016 Nice attack is translate (not paraphrase) a source article and posted it on the talk page without paraphrasing. That is not okay, as it is a copyright violation, and should not be added to any part of this wiki, not a sandbox, user talk page, article talk page, or article. The excerpt is far too large to qualify as fair use. A short excerpt would be okay, as would a summary of the key points in your own words. Sorry, — Diannaa (talk) 19:15, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- When I went to school and university, French O-level (and Latin) was a prerequisite. But now we have this bizarre situation of editors with no knowledge of French trying to write an article on France and French issues, where in many cases the only sources are in French. The Calcutta Telegraph has been used as a source; and it turned out to be highly unreliable. For the same reason that going for an Indian meal in France is a recipe for a disaster. A Tunisian, Moroccan or Vietnamese meal will be cheap and delicious. In the UK I have had excellent Jamaican goat. Mathsci (talk) 18:49, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Moved from User talk:Woodroar
Dear Doug, Thanks for you reply herewith request you to clarify about the word god in Viki it has been mentioned that it has derived from Sanskrit I need your opinion on what basis they allowed as the word God derived from Sanskrit that means the editor of that bags has no idea about the history of the language as I understand Sanskrit It self created around B.C 5th century only from the language called TAMIL, BRAHGRATH & BAALI, but the word கடவுள் is used from the age of stone in Tamil, moreover if you analyse 2 out of 5 words of Sanskrit is from Tamil. How you people can accept that the Sanskrit is the ancient language of India, for your kind references i would like to inform you that the name India itself from 65 years only if you wand to know the earlier name the subcontinent you have to come to the ancient language of Tamil only. If you are a true researcher please revisit the research and identify the true history of Languages.
Thanks and Kind regards
Amir Ali (அமீர் அலி)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Amiralif80 (talk • contribs)
- User:Amiralif80 No, Tamil is Dravidian, Sanskrit Indo-European, they derive from different language families. I am not 'you people'. The name India derives from Indus, as does Indies. I don't know who told you the name India is only 65 years old as that is obviously wrong. See for instance [4] where I see a book published in 1813 with the name India in the title. Doug Weller talk 18:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- I can't begin to figure out how this ended up at User talk:Woodroar, but it appears to have been meant for you. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- {{yo|Ian.thomson]] Thanks, the above editor is a follower of Devaneya Pavanar. Doug Weller talk 18:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- @Ian.thomson: trying again. Doug Weller talk 18:12, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks. I didn't know the name, but I had a sense he was operating out of some Tamil-centric worldview. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:17, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- @Ian.thomson: trying again. Doug Weller talk 18:12, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- {{yo|Ian.thomson]] Thanks, the above editor is a follower of Devaneya Pavanar. Doug Weller talk 18:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Advice on ARBPIA
Doug. Could you do me and my colleague WarKoSign the courtesy of looking at both my page and Israelites. The suggestion is that any article from high antiquity regarding the Israelites, then the Jews, comes automatically under ARBPIA3 because it affects the legitimacy claims of Jews to Israel/Palestine. I'm fucked if I know why citing one of many scholars who note that Samaritans are descended from Israelites is read as delegitimizing Israel or Jewish claims to 'Palestine', but the principle suggested is that ARBPIA can be inferred to apply, and thence the 1R regimen is in place there as well. If you'd prefer to stay off this one, for whatever reason (it's late etc.) could you get another admin to look at it and clarify. Thanks.Nishidani (talk) 21:29, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- As a totally not interested in editing anything to do with the I/P area ... I wouldn't see the specific issue of Samaritans being descended from Israelites as being a matter for ARBPIA, but I am not a lawyer or even a wikilawyer. (But even I, the lowly medievalist, recall from my long-long-ago student days that Samaritans were Israelites who set up their own temple (broad simplification, but close enough for government work.) (You couldn't pay me enough to edit in that area... gods above it's a minefield.) Ealdgyth - Talk 21:36, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- Nishidani, I'm fucked if I know, but I do know that these arguments are indeed made. As far as I am concerned (and this is my opinion as an editor/human bean), it's not the ancientness of the topic (or the lack thereof) or even geography (in this case) that determines whether something is to be regarded as problematic, but the use made by editors (and pundits, fools, professional spinners) of that topic.
The proof is kind of in the pudding (I think I'm sort of speaking as an arb now, though I don't speak for the committee). If there's trouble, it's safe to assume it should be covered--"any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict". But in this case it's not clear that it should construed in that way from the get-go, not until any disruption starts and is reported, and in that case we shouldn't go around punishing editors after the fact. Or you can go ask at WP:AE. Whether all this is helpful I don't know. In the end it will be up to the community to decide one way or another whether this ancient topic's ongoing importance mandate it fall under ARBPIA. Drmies (talk) 21:45, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- BTW, please note that my use of the expression "I'm fucked if I know" was prompted by the words of a notable member of the community of editors, and I am proud to stand here to represent said community. I intend no disrespect--though I gotta say, American English, what a glorious language. Drmies (talk) 21:47, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks. Drmies. No need to justify the vernacular, it's our linguistic safety valve against insanity. I remember asking a Swiss roommate who was helping me on the finer points of construing Goethe, to provide me with a dozen idiomatic words in German to cover moments of exasperation. He looked bewildered, so I prodded him: 'You know! What do you say when 'you're pissed off,' or couldn't 'give a fuck', or 'feel knackered', or want to 'give someone the arse' or tell a dickhead 'to get rooted' etc. I had to explain these expressions, and, studious, he busily noted them down, but blushed as he did so. I finally convinced him one can't get through life without expletives, and after 20 minutes of searching his profoundly bourgeois gentlemanly memory, he came up with: 'Das ist Käse!' (What cheese!) It wasn't much help when a Swiss train conductor, a Curt Jürgens look-alike in uniform and leather boots, bailed me up against a wall and yelled me out in Nazi-style because I had the wrong ticket for Berne. He kicked me and 2 immigrants off the train. Finger-language allowed me to give him an appropriate 'adieu'.
- I can see why a disreputable figure like myself is often read as subtly trying to push over an anti-Semitic, Israel-denialist POV when offering to overhaul articles like Khazars, or Israelites. But as several hundred of those Near Eastern history articles stand, based on the Bible, and a scraping of dated views and scholarship, extending ARBPIA to them would just consolidate the utterly pathetic mess they languish in. I don't get (to cross dress metaphorically for a moment) my knickers in a twist at this. It's just a pity that there is almost no point of contact between contemporary historical scholarship and that subject matter. They can't be touched, though rare exceptions occur. I once got down and rewrote Joseph's Tomb, and by some miracle, no one interfered, except when I did the modern section on the I/P conflict. One of my high wiki moments was to see my effort for the historical background award with a barnstar by User:Chesdovi, a deeply religious orthodox person with whom I had elsewhere often had edit conflicts. He could see that the fascinating detail on its complex origins was far too interesting to allow POV worries to undermine it. Cheers.Nishidani (talk) 07:45, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- @Nishidani: Sorry, I've been too slow in replying. I raised the issues with my colleagues and although few replied the feeling was that this should be a community decision. As for Joseph's Tomb, I'd say personally that the article itself isn't covered by obviously the section on the I/P conflict is. Interesting issue, can 1R apply just to a section? I'd like to think so but I don't know of any precedent for this. Doug Weller talk 08:59, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- No problems with that distinction, Doug. As to extending ARBPIA3 to ancient middle eastern history, it would be a recipe for chaos in articles that are mostly subpar, and of negligible value. I don't know more than a few that would pass an 'encyclopedic content' exam. There is no doubt that POVs exist, among editors and in the best scholarly sources. We have Biblical Minimalism, Biblical maximalism (I just read that for the first time and immediately had to alter:'There is no scholarly controversy on the historicity of the events recounted after the Babylonian captivity in the 6th century BCE, but there is great controversy concerning earlier data', an extraordinary claim which asserts there is no controversy over Biblical accounts from 599 onwards. There are scholarly controversies over virtually every datum in all ancient historical sources.); these positions influence, undoubtedly, editors who espouse Christian Zionism, Religious Zionism, and Zionists who take the Biblical as a basis for political claims, on the one hand, and anti-Zionists and critics of Israel or promoters of a Palestinian State. Editors whose POV is stronger than their historical curiosity or passion for rhetorically unadorned empirical knowledge will tend to pick, choose and challenge sources according to whether their reading of them finds an endorsement of their POV or not. Since Karl Mannheim's Ideology and Utopia, we are all supposed to furnish ourselves with some critical awareness that there is a sociology of knowledge that, duly absorbed, makes us cautious about temptations to confirmation bias in the use of primary and secondary sources. Unfortunately, while awareness that this is part and parcel of their job exists among historians, it is not part of our general cultural awareness. I know that I have a bias towards the minimalist school (it extends to the orient: I read extensively in Japanese textual fundamentalism once, which took the primary chronicles to be sources of fact instead of being, like the Bible, court/sacerdotal documents legitimating an ideology in order to promote a specific sectarian or clan vision, one revived in the modern period). I also know that minimalists tend to underestimate the tenacity of folk memory, which the older school of anthropology registered everywhere from Arab and Yoruba tribal genealogies to the Guugu Yimithirr. Bias is avoided simply by casting the net over all academic approaches, and describing the various positions.
- Specifically, the old Judeo-Christocentric scholarly POV underwrote the Tanakh narrative of a foreign population supplanting the indigenous Israelites of the north, and then assuming the Torah, but nothing else (except the Book of Joshua). Now that Samaritan studies are highly advanced, it is increasingly thought that Samaritans were basically the descendants of the northern kingdom of Israel. This disrupts the traditional POV which sees Judea and Samaria as the heartland of Judaism, for it translates as meaning Samaria was an Israelite successor state in which there developed an outlook which differed from the Judaism that later defined the Jews in terms consonant with the sacerdotal vision of Babylonian returnee caste that essentially controlled the recension of the Tanakh. To a religious orthodox Zionist or secular Zionist raised on the old narrative, any attempt to register this newer scholarship is read as an anti-Zionist attempt to undermine Israel's legitimacy in so far as it is partially anchored in the Judea+Samaria =Jewish people's homeland equation. One could try to palliate this anxiety by adding that the demographic carrying weight of Palestine was around 1 million, and of this there is no evidence that the Samarians constituted a majority (over Jews and pagans), so one needn't think that stating the Israelite descent theory of non-Jewish Samaritans imperils modern Zionist claims to Samaria. The suggestion that ARBPIA applies, arose I think from this retrosctive reading into the academic sources of the POV angles in the I/P conflict, and meant I can't edit the page without the consent of the two editors there who underwrite that traditional narrative. Well, okay. But practically this means that a dozen specialist sources on the Samaritans can't be cited for whatever they say which might endanger the Zionist narrative. It's all very trivial, anxiety-obsessed and, ultimately, boring because Israeli scholarship is way ahead of the Zionist narrative, and doesn't feel that Jewish identity is threatened by whatever historical research throws up. There's no solution, really. ARBPIA in any case should not apply. One looks at the numbers line up, and desists when it suggests edits will be reverted on sight, and that's an end to it. Cheers.Nishidani (talk) 13:29, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- BTW, please note that my use of the expression "I'm fucked if I know" was prompted by the words of a notable member of the community of editors, and I am proud to stand here to represent said community. I intend no disrespect--though I gotta say, American English, what a glorious language. Drmies (talk) 21:47, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Reference errors on 26 July
Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that some edits performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. They are as follows:
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Impact factors
Hi Doug, I think you probably know more about this than me because I've never really understood impact factors except in so far as they're supposedly more useful for science journals/articles than for humanities. I do worry when I see journals with seemingly massive broad scope and the International Journal of Academic Research (!) has just popped in up that category. So, I went to their website and they're proudly boasting an IF of 3.656. Is that of any significance at all? - Sitush (talk) 19:56, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
- @Sitush:I'm ignoring your question as frankly it's irrelevant. What you need to look at is who gave it that impact factor, ie the "International Institute of Organized Research" (I2OR) which is on Beall's list "of questionable companies that purport to provide valid scholarly metrics at the researcher, article, or journal level."[5] The journal also get an award from the same organisation, which seems to charge a fee and has a gmail address. Useless. Doug Weller talk 12:49, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, Doug. I wasn't even aware that there were multiple awarders of impact factors. - Sitush (talk) 03:24, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Reference errors on 28 July
Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. It is as follows:
- On the Naj Tunich page, your edit caused a URL error (help). ( | )
Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can . Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:22, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
When you did this revert you posted nothing at all on the talk page of the editor. When you revert an inexperienced editor, please post something, either a template or a heartfelt request to do better, on the editor's talk page. Surely you know better than this. The editor restored their material and I reverted it again and posted a warning. Edison (talk) 04:46, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
- Please disregard the above. It looks like the user created a sockpuppet with a slightly different username and then restored the flawed text. You did indeed post an appropriate warning when you reverted. Edison (talk) 04:54, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Schliemann
Good idea. That editor's really pushing the good-faith envelope; kinda disruptive. I was going to ask you but seeing how busy you are... Anyhow, I also wanted to ask you something; it's marginally related. The editor in question has a link to a youtube page on his user-page; a link to a video on editing Wikipedia. He also has three such links at wikimedia, on editing and uploading to and from wikimedia. All useful, I guess but... AFAIK, youtubers earn a little when anyone clicks on one of their pages? Is this considered problematic? Probably not, all other things being equal, but just thought I'd ask. Haploidavey (talk) 16:16, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
- TPS butting in By default YouTubers do not earn money on their videos, but can opt in to a programme which gives them revenue from adverts. Details on how much people earn are thin on the ground but the consensus is "not much", perhaps around $1 or $2 per thousand views. Nev1 (talk) 19:46, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
- Stone me, a regular gold mine! Thanks for that. Haploidavey (talk) 19:56, 29 July 2016
- Doug, the guy's just trolling now. Haploidavey (talk) 14:23, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- User:Haploidavey I know, I'm just indulging myself. I'm sure they'll read my reply. I wonder what his 'team' is. Doug Weller talk 14:55, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Well, good for you. I know what fun that can be. I'm not sure the team has a physical substance, as such. I imagine an infinite series of self-reflecting mirrors, you know? Or perhaps a little herd of tiny, tiny men. With tiny wings.Haploidavey (talk) 15:12, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- User:Haploidavey I know, I'm just indulging myself. I'm sure they'll read my reply. I wonder what his 'team' is. Doug Weller talk 14:55, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Doug, the guy's just trolling now. Haploidavey (talk) 14:23, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
- Stone me, a regular gold mine! Thanks for that. Haploidavey (talk) 19:56, 29 July 2016
Pair-non-Pair
Hi mate! it is up: Pair-non-Pair ATBWikirictor (talk) 03:18, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Alyson Hannigan
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Alyson Hannigan. Legobot (talk) 04:27, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Oops, thanks for catching that. I was trying to check they were all properly linked before putting the navbox on. Must have not been paying enough attention! Joe Roe (talk) 16:48, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
- @Joe Roe: Not a problem, I'm still struggling with it. You probably saw I just created one article and renamed another. Doug Weller talk 16:51, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
Wikidata weekly summary #220
Checkuser?
Hi, Doug. At EP there is an anonymous editor who I suspect (on various grounds, including geolocation, single-topic focus, pov, and rhetorical style) is closely associated with the topic he edits, and therefore has an undeclared conflict of interest. Would checkuser be an appropriate of checking on that? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:48, 2 August 2016 (UTC)