→Category:Progressive Jewish thinkers: ===Concern about duplicating Reform and Progressive labels=== |
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:My question in return would be: how do we capture the thought that has influenced each movement? On one hand I think it is very important that we get away from the idea that any movement "owns" some part of Jewish thought and tradition. On the other hand, each movement focuses on a different (albeit overlapping) group of thinkers. This too is notable and needs to be documented. |
:My question in return would be: how do we capture the thought that has influenced each movement? On one hand I think it is very important that we get away from the idea that any movement "owns" some part of Jewish thought and tradition. On the other hand, each movement focuses on a different (albeit overlapping) group of thinkers. This too is notable and needs to be documented. |
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:Kol tuv, [[User:Egfrank|Egfrank]] 07:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC) |
:Kol tuv, [[User:Egfrank|Egfrank]] 07:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC) |
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===Concern about duplicating Reform and Progressive labels=== |
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Hi Egfrank: Looking at your recent expansion of articles and categories relating to [[Progressive Judaism]] creates a number of serious problems of duplication and redundancies. You seem to be conducting a solo editorial campaign of revisionism that creates a false impression that "Progressive Judaism" somehow has nothing to do with [[Reform Judaism]], or you are creating articles and categries that is artificially distancing the notions of "Reform" from "Progressivism" from each other which may violate [[WP:NOR]], when they are essentially one and the same thing. For example, you created [[:Category:Progressive Jewish communal organizations]], [[:Category:Progressive Jewish higher education]], [[:Category:Progressive Jewish thinkers]] with articles in them that pertain to Reform Judaism more than anything else. What is this "heirarchy" all about? What is the common or universal scholarly standing of Progressive Judaism ''vis-a-vis'' Reform Judaism and ''vice versa''? If they are one and the same thing then they should not get separate articles or categories but should be merged. Is it something like the the split within [[Haredi Judaism]] where you have [[Hasidic Judaism]] as a sub-group yet distinctly different? Just look at these examples of what you did: The [[Central Conference of American Rabbis]] is the arch-Reform rabbinical body, yet you have on your own placed them in [[:Category:Progressive Jewish communal organizations]], when surely that should have been [[:Category:Reform Judaism communal organizations]]? -- By the way, the term [[Reform Judaism]] is preferable to "Reform Jewish" since "Judaism" refers to the religion whereas "Jewish" may also mean the [[ethnicity]] alone, excluding the religion.) You put the main Reform Judaism institution of [[Hebrew Union College]] into [[:Category:Progressive Jewish higher education]], should that not have been [[:Category:Reform Judaism higher education]] instead? You then place [[Moses Mendelssohn]] into [[:Category:Progressive Jewish thinkers]], which is actually quite nebulous because the term "Progressive" could have so many connotations in light of the [[Haskalah]] ''milieu'' Mendelssohn lived in and was responding to. In any case who decided to make him into a "Progressive" now, certainly it is not what he called himself and by dint of history and all mainstream scholarship he is regarded as the main "Father of Reform Judaism" almost universally. Thus this last category should have been [[:Category:Reform Judaism thinkers]]. Unless this mix-up can be clarified, I will ask that the [[Progressive Judaism]] article be merged into the main [[Reform Judaism]] article, and that the categories be renamed as I have noted above. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Sincerest good wishes and ''[[Shabbat]] [[Shalom]]'', [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 08:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 08:12, 26 October 2007
Hi! Welcome to my talk page!
Business and Economics Collaboration
General
I checked out the link you posted. It appears to me that in the case of Attribution theory, it's tagged as a Business and Economics because of the effect it has on global economy.
As for my HR background, I wasn't aware there was a psych side and a financial side. Maybe that's just the blonde talking. I worked in the Commander's Support Staff. Considering I didn't deal with finances, and my Commander was a head-job, I'll just go with psych end. LaraLove 15:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Business plan
Egfrank, the business plan article is looking much better, thanks to your work! Since you're still working on it, I'll just leave you to it. When you have all your text and references in place, let me know if you want some help with wikifying. --SueHay 15:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks! I have a bit more I want to do re: cleaning up the old "sample outline" - once everything I can salvage has been moved to its new home, I'll let you know. As for *all* the text and references - I think that will take a very long time. There's no reason we shouldn't start working on the wikifying as soon as this first pass is done. Egfrank 15:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Got your note here and on my talk page. Drop me a note on my talk page if you want help with the wikifying. Don't forget Wikipedia:Attribution :) --SueHay 15:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Company Categorization
Template syntax
Help:Template is a starting point for template syntax. Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) is a the place to go to ask questions. I don't regularly work with the parser functions that are needed to do what you want. I know enough that I can consult the manual when I need to.Caerwine Caer’s whines 00:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Newbie Welcome
Welcome!
Hello, Egfrank, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
- The five pillars of Wikipedia
- How to edit a page
- Help pages
- Tutorial
- How to write a great article
- Manual of Style
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}}
after the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! --KFP (talk | contribs) 18:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Spelling
Dear Egfrank, You are welcome, I am glad to be of help. Best wishes, --Cyril Thomas 15:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes
You recently left a message on my talk page. You asked if I had any special interests. I do, the interest in companies. I enjoy providing info on companies. Thanks for your time. --The Random Editor 21:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Answer to Inquiry
Hi, sorry I have no responded sooner to your question on my page about the use of the Dick Wirthlin photo.
I got the photo from lds.org, which is the official website of the LDS (Dick's) Church. They publish promo photos of everyone they call to be a General Authority. This was Dick's promo photo. I don't know a lot about what photos you can and can't use, but I know that promo photos are one of the types that may be used under the "fair use" copyright rule if you are presenting the promo photo merely as showing what the person in question looks like. I think it is allowed because that is really the purpose of a promo photo--the copyright holder actually wants people to publicize what the person looks like. SESmith 00:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Request for comments
I read your comment on Grace E. D's talk page. Letting you know that I filed, Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/DPeterson --Mihai cartoaje 00:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Cerebral hypoxia
No problem. I'm glad you appreciated it; some editors don't like it when citation styles are changed. Best, Fvasconcellos 16:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Re
It is not really proper to link real life identities of Wikipedia users. You should post a note at the Admin's noticeboard to get a broader audience for your question. Thank you. --Ragib 22:50, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Business and economics project
legal concerns?
In your recent comment you say that you have legal concerns, both that if WP misrepresents XXXXX, it is liable for that, and that XXXXX might sue WP for some reason. Usually when I see stuff about legal concerns, they come from frustrated users who threaten to sue if they don't get their own way. I understand what is going on in that situation, its obviously pretty silly. I'm wondering, personally, what you mean in this case. I'm asking you mostly for my personal edification. I rarely see such worries from responsible users, and I'm wondering if I've missed something, and what precedents there are for legal issues like this involving WP. Thanks, Smmurphy(Talk) 14:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I have concerns that XXXXX (the organization) is misrepresenting its relationships to other organizations. This might lead to a cease and desist order from those organizations (XXXXXXXXX) to XXXXX (the organization, not the sock puppet). This order might also be sent to any other organization that unwittingly takes XXXXX's self presentation as gospel.
- Now lets consider WP's role. If we leave the article unattended, it is highly likely our favorite editor will invent a new sock puppet, edit the article to her liking. Which would mean WP gets a cease and desist order. Lots of money, time, paperwork.
- We could of course be vigilant, even edit protect the page. This would prevent the first problem. However, the interpersonal skills of XXXXX's director are not the best (assuming the sock puppets are the real person and not an impersonation). So I don't consider it out of reason for her to attempt a frivolous law suit if the protected article is not to her liking. Again time, money, and annoyance.
- For an important article these concerns may well be worth the time money and effort. For an unimportant article, I think not. That was all. Egfrank 15:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. Does WP get C&D letters often? I guess probably so. Wikipedia:General disclaimer seems to be WP's first line of defense. Also per SwatJester here:
- "Keep in mind, Durova, you won't be sued for editing and administrating wikipedia. Anyone who would even try would be laughed out of the attorney's office, and anyone who tried to do it themselves would very likely be sanctioned for frivolous suits. (the exception to this being defamation/libel cases, but that's not the case here)."
- This feeling about frivolous suits and sanctioning of lawyers involved is my first reaction both when considering an editor being sued and when considering WP getting sued (defamation and copyright issues not withstanding). Generally, I guess the policy is no legal threats.
- Do you know anything for sure beyond this (as in does the office actually have much to do when empty or not so empty legal threats are sent to it)? Or are you just thinking hypothetically? Best, Smmurphy(Talk) 16:12, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. Does WP get C&D letters often? I guess probably so. Wikipedia:General disclaimer seems to be WP's first line of defense. Also per SwatJester here:
- No, I have no personal knowledge of their procedure beyond what you have already cited above. Nor am I a lawyer. In a general manner of speaking, though, I suspect the process is similar to resolving any formal legal dispute. Correspondence goes back and forth until the one issuing the cease and desist order is satisfied and is willing to sign a document to that effect. All of this needs to be done by lawyers so that the i's and t's are dotted and the issue doesn't resurface later. Egfrank 17:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, Smmurphy(Talk) 18:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I just read your revised comment on XXXXX. I'm really impressed you have revised your position based on the current and highly charged situation revolving around this article. Hopefully we can revisit this article when the company gains a reputation in the international community. David D. (Talk) 14:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
RE:your message on my talkpage
Per what EdJohnston (talk · contribs) said, this should probably be archived.--Isotope23 16:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Editing my page
The page about VEGA Group - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VEGA_Group - has been tagged as "This article or section is written like an advertisement". If found your details in our history, and wanted to ask you if you could please let me know how best to restructure the content to prevent it being construed as an advert, as we are trying to prevent this appearance. User:Mtgunning (added by User:egfrank).
It is always a pleasure when someone wants to improve an article, but you have some real challenges. Let me see if I can explain.
- I'm not sure of a delicate way to say this, but single article editors, especially those that write articles about their own company, are not particularly welcome in the Wikipedia culture. So right up, your company is at risk of creating the wrong impressions. I refer you to the following policies WP:COI WP:NPOV WP:CITE.
- On the other hand, you probably spend more time researching your company and its market position than any one else (or you should be) and as odd as it might sound, figuring out how to write a good NPOV article on your own company could be of benefit to both your company and Wikipedia.
So here is how to start:
- don't be a one article editor. Find other topics to edit. Pick random articles and clean up their layout, grammar, spelling, etc. Helpful donkey work is a great way to win friends and fans.
- detach. In the note above you refered to the article as "our" article and "my page". Problem is, the article isn't your article, but Wikipedia's article to edit or even remove as the community likes.
- try to get other people interested in editing the article. This will help you detach and give credibility to the article. But make sure you respect wiki policies if there are disputes - e.g. WP:RRR, WP:SPAM. A good way to go about this is to look at the history of articles related to your industry. Perhaps one of the editors would enjoy working on the VEGA_Group article or at least be receptive to a mentorship role, see Wikipedia:Mentorship for further ideas.
- cite everything using reliable non-VEGA affiliated sources. If you feel this will not give a fair view of VEGA_Group, you are probably better off recommending the article for deletion or reducing it to a stub. A short neutral well cited stub article is always preferable to a long article loaded with information that cannot be verified.
- take the academic view. How does this company fit into its larger market? If there are published financials, how would an equity analyst treat them? Would they see trends, red flags? How does the company's competitive strategy appear to an outsider? Its management philosophy? Its approach to corporate governance?
- Tthe B&E project is beginning to put together some editing standards for company based articles. The following citations should be helpful. Wikipedia_Talk: WikiProject Business and Economics#Assessment Standards and Wikipedia:Companies,_corporations_and_economic_information.
- purge the article of any and all marketing speak. When in doubt, leave it out. Be aware particularly of time bound words, superlatives, and pretty much any qualitative statement that cannot be backed by facts, especially if it makes the company look good.
If all this sounds like fun, welcome to Wikipedia!
If all this sounds like too much, I'd recommend just deleting the article. There is no dishonor in this. On the contrary, a self sponsored deletion with a comment about not realizing that this was against policy will be to your and your company's credit.
If I may be of further help, let me know.
Best of luck, Egfrank 17:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
PS. It is good form to sign any post. To do so just type four ~ like this ~~~~ at the end of your comment. Wikipedia will automatically fill in the time, date and your user name.
Thanks for your advice and information. We will look at reviewing the entire posting and following each of your suggestions.
Damianschogger 14:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Tip
Your right of course, and I think I need to read up on my Wikipedia Policy. Thanks for the tip.
--Random Say it here! 18:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, it's random. I nominated money for good article rating. They turned it down, but said if the article was made better, they would reconsider. Go to the talk page, and read what they say. If you don't mind I could use some help fixing the article. --Random Say it here! 14:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
CSD notification
A tag has been placed on Crosby Textor, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done because the article appears to be a repost of material that was previously deleted following a deletion debate, such as articles for deletion. If you can indicate how Crosby Textor is different from the previously posted material, or if you can indicate why this article should not be deleted, I advise you to place the template {{hangon}} underneath the other template on the article, and also put a note on Talk:Crosby Textor saying why this article should stay. An admin should check for such edits before deleting the article. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Please read our criteria for speedy deletion, particularly item 4 under General criteria. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. We welcome your help in trying to improve Wikipedia, and we request you to follow these instructions. Alasdair 03:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
WikiProject Business & Economics article on Andrew Saul
Just a heads up that Andrew Saul (ex-CEO of Cache and Brooks Bros.) has been nominated for featured article status here. Any input, comment and suggestions would be greatly appreciated, there is not that much info on him as it relates to his business career, and being an !expert, I'm not quite sure how well I can flesh it out. Please feel free to comment and/or improve the article. Thanks! Mrprada911 21:18, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I recognize the article has been heavily edited by editors with Orthodox points of view and you're welcome to better explain the Reform position on these things. I'd encourage you to supply reliable sources, particularly for philosophical discussions and explanations why certain rule changes were made and actions taken. The article currently emphasizes rules and actions instead of explanations not just because this more reflects a traditional worldview, but also as a consequence of Wikipedia's policies: rules and actions are easy to identify and verify, while explanations are more difficult. The article is really in need of attention from an expert who can supply more detail and identify appropriate sources about more liberal views. Best, --Shirahadasha 01:01, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hi! You mentioned the issue of Orthodox views of women and Torah reading. The issue of lenient opinions on this issue and groups within (or depending on ones viewpoint, claiming to be within) Orthodoxy is discussed in detail the Partnership minyan article (See also the article on Shira Hadasha, the first congregation to attempt to implement them.) Although some role-of-women argments are based on necessity, these are not. Best, --Shirahadasha 08:27, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
- Of course. I didn't mean to say that it was the only logic Egfrank 08:50, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Copied your comments to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism. Best, --Shirahadasha 14:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Hi! Suggest not unilaterally substituting Category:Progressive Judaism for Category:Reform Judaism until until discussion on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism matures further and hopefully a consensus is reached about what terminology to use. Best, --Shirahadasha 17:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
- Hello there. Just to let you know that I took your suggestion to heart and the WkiProject is now called Progressive Judaism - makes perfect sense! Take care, A Sniper 17:12, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Reformers Unite...
Howdy friend, and thanks for the greetings. So far I am the only member of the new WikiProject Reform Judaism which I hope you'll join. My wish is that more literature and historical documentation re: the German Reformers and the North American Reform movement makes its way to Wikipedia, and that my edits can improve the NPOV of existing pages. Best wishes, A Sniper 15:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hello Egfrank! I see we both did our undergrad in the US and a Masters in the UK (my Dad's brother went to Princeton). Anyway, Chag Sameach! Certainly we can work together on this. I agree that we should have a presence at the Judaism project - my motivation for working on a Reform WP is that there is such a wealth of information that could attract additional interest, such as the Orthodox project others are involved in. My problem, like with everyone else, is fitting things in between work & family. I lecture full-time, so I normally trawl Wiki between classes - mostly music pages and re: religious history. Oh, sorry about getting the template wrong on my page - wasn't paying attention to my edit. Looking forward to hearing back from you... A Sniper 9:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Halivni
I think it would be OR to extrapolate Halivni's importance based on the number of citations. But if you can find something, then by all means go ahead. Chag SameachWolf2191 11:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Brit Milah
I did a bit of work on the circumcision page re: Reform history - please look it over. My edits will be obvious, and all referenced. Ciao, A Sniper 13:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Hell! I see that you ware planning to rework some of the articles on some topics related to Reform. Curently the article on Geiger is very sub-standard considering his importance. I am considering updating using the NEJ but if you have any other sources you can work in that would be better. Where do I find that index of citations you mentioned re Halivni? Best Wolf2191 03:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Your note
Hi! Thanks for your note. I replied on my talk page. Best, --Shirahadasha 16:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Hermeneutical circle
Dear Egfrank,
Thank You for Your message.
My work is functional programming, I have MS in mathematics. My hobby and long-time goal is to study cultures of pre-state cultures, especially that of gatherers. I am learning two Eskimo languages (Sireniki and Ungazigmi), and am interested in modern cultural anthropological treatments and ethnographical records on several shamanistic cultures, including semiotical (Hoppál) and hermeutical (Clifford Geertz) approaches.
This may reveal, that, although my work makes me interested in AI and my goals make me interested in hermeneutics, but I am not an expert in either. Even, I lack fundamantals in both. I am not justified yet to write strong claims, even summaries on this topic, because I lack the necessary overview and experience.
I thought, that the cited work links to hermeneutics in many ways, and should be at least mentioned in hermeneutical articles.[1] The cited authors reflected to the works of Heidegger, Gadamar and Habermas. Besides of this, "Computational hermeneutics" is an existing term [2]
I have not even read through the paper I cited in the article, thus, I am not justified yet even to argue. If You agree, I shall remove my contribution from the article, work with it on my user page (or offline), study all concerned topics thoroughly, and after this, if I continue to think that it belongs to articles of hermeneutics, then (and only then) I shall make some concrete proposals.
Best wishes, and thank You for the feedback,
Physis 17:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Dear Egfrank,
Thank You for the reassuring words. I have moved the AI-related contributions to my user page, and shall study the concerned topics offline.
Best wishes,
Physis 19:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I appreciate your efforts on the Manual of Style but beg to disagree with you on one issue. You recently made a change from a reference to all sources reflecting the "Torah" viewpoint (admittedly rather badly worded) to a reference to medieval commentators. My personal view has been that reliability of a source is determined within a field of expertise. Orthodox Judaism regards itself as a field of expertise and, whether or not one agrees with its outcomes, it has a self-correcting peer review process for determining which individuals are considered experts and which viewpoints are considered notable and acceptable within that community. Accordingly, the community's position has always been that sources that have been published and are considered reliable within the "Torah community" are reliable for Wikipedia purposes because they reliably articulate a notable viewpoint and have been vetted by experts in that viewpoint. This has been the position of all administrators from the Orthodox community and has historically been the position of the Judaism WikiProject. Although the statement of this position could be better and more neutrally worded, I don't recommend unilaterally departing from it without discussion. I particularly disagree with changing to a reference to "medieval commentators". It's vitally important for this community to have the ability to explain its contemporary situation and offer contemporary viewpoints, and we have to have the ability to have the sources generally used to articulate notable contemporary viewpoints considered reliable for Wikipedia purposes. Wikipedia guidelines provide some flexibility to support this; for example, the fine print in the verifiability and reliable sources say that it's OK to quote a self-published work (such as a letter from a figure like Moshe Feinstein or the website of a well-known Yeshiva) if the author has been determined to be a notable expert in the field through published sources. Part of my job in dealing with the general Wikipedia community has been to advocate for the need for this leeway continuing and to explain the special sourcing problems of religious topics and editors. I also don't believe that undercutting the ability of the Orthodox community to have its sources for articulating its contemporary positions considered reliable creates any general advantage for the purposes of the Encyclopedia or benefits anyone else. Once again, doubtless this special need of the Orthodox community could be articulated in better and more neutral language that more closely tracks existing flexibility in the guidelines. Best, --Shirahadasha 13:38, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm moving your comment to the Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Judaism/Manual of Style page - this is too important to discuss on the user pages. Egfrank 17:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't have it. Thanks, --Shirahadasha 22:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the note. I default to that form of citation-- it's what I was taught. But as you say, there's usually a "Works Cited" section to refer to. Thanks for the tag change. That's the one I meant. Glad you made the referral. I sometimes don't know where to turn for help on something way out of my experience. Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 16:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your note. I am an administrator and I am stepping in. I've protected the Bible article temporarily. I've left Talk:Bible unprotected in hopes the user will see reason and use it for discussion. If the user violates the WP:3RR policy, I will enforce it, but I will avoid blocking him if he stops short of doing this. At last check he was almost there and I've already given a WP:3RR warning. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:51, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Your EAR
Hello,
This is a courtesy follow-up regarding a request for editor assistance you made about a week ago. A few responses have been provided to your request, and I wanted to see if you found any of it useful.
Please feel free to reply at my talk page; better yet, update the request yourself. Cheers, --Aarktica 08:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Antisemitic magazine
Hello Egfrank. Thanks very much for your comment on my talk page. Of course I agree that praising Hitler is blatant and outrageous antisemitism. This isn't really at issue on the Dalit Voice page. Wikipedia policy is that we should let the facts speak for themselves and use reliable sources; that's all that I am trying to do. Luckily there are a couple of good external sources that have described the views of the magazine and these should continue to form the main framework for the article. What emerges from these and from looking at issues of the magazine is that it has a complex mix of non-mainstream views. Antisemitic themes recur, so do Afrocentric ones, but the most common themes probably relate to Indian politics. That's why I don't think it's appropriate to simply describe it as "antisemitic" in the lead. Please get back to me if I can explain more fully. Itsmejudith 13:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Conservadoxy comment on HG's talk page
Hi Egfrank. Please note my response to your comment on HG's talk page. Best, Savant1984 20:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Conservadox
Hi, thanks for your note. I saw the google hits, but I'm more interested in reliable sources. Have you seen any promising and good quality sources yet? Also, where does UTJ itself use the term? I'm curious whether you agree with what I mean about it being written like an essay. For instance: "As a result, Conservadox Jews, who a generation ago could feel very comfortable in either an Orthodox or a Conservative setting, have become increasingly isolated from both Conservative and Orthodox Judaism as the gap between the two has widened." Sounds both like it's trying to make an argument ("as a result") and express some vague impressions ("feel comfortable... isolated... has widened"). It all strikes me as spot on, yet not encyclopedic. Take care, HG | Talk 20:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hi. You're welcome to copy that talk (and the above). Kol tuv, HG | Talk 21:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
- Tangent. Seeing that you're a linguist, would you care to comment on the use of "generic term" at Talk:Psychiatric abuse. Of course, only comment if you agree with me! ;) HG | Talk 03:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
religion
Hi. I am afraid i have no time to work on the religion articles but I can share my views with you and maybe they will be of help. First, anthropologists and sociologists were interested in the origins of religion primarily in the 19th century - the major theorists are E.B. Taylor and James Frazer. By the early 1900s anthropologists were rejecting any theorization of the origins of religion as speculative and unscientific, and shifting to classifying different kinds of religions and asking about religion's functions. The sociologists Max Weber and Emile Durkheim produced very important works that continue to influence anthropologists. anthropologists themselves focused primarily on studying specific religions or the beliefs and practices of specific groups - in the first half of the 20th century the two dominant figures were Malinowski and Frazer. Virtually all anthropologists writing in the second half of the 20th century, incluing Levi-Strauss (who is not a notable theorist of religion) and Mary Douglas (who was) were heavily influenced by Durkheim, for example. Clifford geertz was more influenced by Weber. Other important figures are Victor Turner, Stanley Tambiah and Talal Asad. I hope this helps - if you know people who are familiar with these individuals or who are willing to read them, you will make a lot of progress. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Frazer saw religion as an early form of science. levi-Strauss simply noted that people in all societies classify things, and people in different kinds of societies classify things differently - his classic works on this are The Savage mind and Totemism - but his principle ideas come from Durkhenim. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:47, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
- Wow! You anticipated my question before I asked it! So, in other words his essay on the creation story might be relevant to biblical criticism (as an example of Durkheim influenced hermeneutic), but as for the theory of religion, he presented no new insights? Egfrank 12:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
He wasn't a Bible scholar ... I would focus in the articles on religion on clarifying the ideas of Taylor and Frazer, Weber and Durkheim first, and that will provide a framework for fitting in others like Douglas and Levi Strauss, Turner and Geertz and Asad, and be driven by an even-handed overview of what scholars actually did, than predetermining what some of us editors are most interested in and looking for articles or quotes to squeeze into those. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
- I only meant to clarify his role vis a vis religion - the article I was referring to was in my PU anthropology and folklore class syllabus though for the life of me I can't remember the title. I tend to be mostly interested in how the bible is read (by various academic disciplines and by religious and non religious alike). Although he may not have been a specialist in the bible per se, he was a specialist in the structural analysis of myth. As such, he was well within his expertise in commenting on the creation story and any number of other mythic stories (by which I mean the myth in the anthropological sense or in the German sense of Geshichte, not myth=fairy story) in the bible.
- As for your thoughts on the anthropology and religion - thanks for taking the time to provide a list - Asad is new to me and he seems particularly interesting since he comes from an Islamic perspective. If I ever have a chance, I may read through that list, but for now my hands are also full. BTW, I quite agree with your approach: surveying the literature and then writing rather than trying to anticipate what editor X will like. Egfrank 00:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Rejected guidelines
It is not about a vote nor about persuasive arguments; it is about demonstrating that the consensus of the WP community supports a policy or guideline either directly or through practice. This has not been the case on religious figures. Despite having some support from the participants in the discussion, this proposal only reflects the opinion of a tiny minority of the millions of WP contributors. Policy and guidelines are purposefully difficult to implement at WP, or else we'd be drowning in personal opinions labeled as policy or guidelines by energetic editors. Despite your hard work and good ideas, the proposal did not gain traction, but that is typical of proposed guidelines.
Per Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines: "A rejected page is any proposal for which consensus for acceptance is not present after a reasonable time period, for which consensus is unclear after a reasonable time period for discussion regardless of whether there is active discussion or not, or where discussion has substantially died out without reaching consensus. Consensus need not be fully opposed; if consensus is neutral on the issue and unlikely to improve, the proposal is likewise rejected. It is considered bad form to hide this fact, e.g. by removing the tag. Making small changes will not change this fact, nor will repetitive arguments. Generally it is wiser to rewrite a rejected proposal from scratch and start in a different direction." --Kevin Murray 11:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Notability
I apologize for my misperception of your role at the religious figures guideline. I see that you are a recent but energetic and prolific contributor to WP; these are welcome and needed traits here. I would like to see many more editors take an active interest in policy as there is a general ambivalence at this point. However, you might want to spend a bit of time learning the nuances and history in the policy area before venturing too far into decision making. That being said, we need fresh ideas and good experience -- your resume is quite strong. I'd like to discuss issues with you as time permits and offer my services to mentor you a bit if you wish.
Perhaps before jumping too far into this specific issue, we could discuss the infrastructure of the notability criteria and the recent trends. As WP is still relatively new the evolution is still rapid and the infrastructure is rather malleable. In a nutshell individual subject specific notability guidelines (such as religious figures) evolved somewhat independently, WP:Notability is a relatively recent project which seems to be evolving toward a central standard or as some propose, the only standard. The most recent trend has been to consolidate more specific criteria at a second tier level such as WP:BIO or WP:ORG, the former dealing with all people and the latter with all groups of people (with some family or partnerships under BIO). For example religious figures are covered by BIO where churches etc. are covered by ORG. Without exception recent attempts to create specific guidelines on types of people has met rejection (e.g., politicians, actors, musicians) and established guidelines such as Pornographic actors have been merged back into BIO.
The objective of the apparent consensus is to provide simple objective criteria, without need for arbitrary or quantitative standards. In a way less is more as we have a risk at WP of our rule-sets ballooning beyond the complexity of the US Tax Code. Consider the tragedy of the commons in economics as an analogy for our policy; what seems reasonable for one area of WP, contributes to what many have described as CREEP.
The popular standard is relying on third party writers in verifiable and credible media to establish whether a subject is "notable." However, there is a vocal group who insist on specific standards such as all Popes or professional bal palyers are notable, even though there may be some Popes and professional ball players about whom we have insufficient verifiable information to write an encyclopedic article. Maybe a specific place to begin on this project is to determine how well BIO handles religious figures and then make the determination whether BIO can be the vehicle to solve the perceived problems, or whether a separate page is warranted.
If you want a cohesive discussion, then choose your page. I am fine with corresponding with you traditionally at the project talk page or back and forth on our individual pages, but I’m not interested in developing my talk page into a discussion page on this or any other topic. --Kevin Murray 16:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
- Gp75motorsports (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Thanks for your notice. I checked your comments (after correcting my own typo). User:RiçkK has in fact been permanently blocked from editing Wikipedia, back in 2005, so putting up a permanent notice was not incorrect. Regarding your other comments, other users have suggested that some of this user's warnings and comments may have been a bit harsh for the situation. You're welcome to follow the discussion at WP:ANI. Best, --Shirahadasha 19:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Wow
What an impressive story of "finding the right boundaries". You were right to challenge them to go as far as possible, they were right to discover their boundary. Great compromises, sincere boundaries ... a valuable interaction.
Yes, the only path for a gentile, according to Christians, is Jesus. I fully appreciate the "it would have been enough" point. (Rather a rabbinic style of presenting a point, btw;) This is a difference between Protestants and Catholics too — Jesus and Bible are enough for the Protestant, why seek God via Mary, Pope or Priesthood?
It makes me wonder if Christianity has contributed to anti-Semitism by "grabbing" God-fearers who would otherwise convert to Judaism. The Tanakh has many clues that Israel is a light for the gentiles and is God's witness to them. The NT reports such gentile believers in Jewish circles. By placing itself between God and godless world, gentile Christianity functionally isolated Judaism from that world. Its culture was foreign and its spiritual value became marginalized by the ultimately more prominent Christian form of monotheism.
Imagine if things were different, if Judaism were competing with equal numbers alongside Christianity to incorporate outsiders into theocentric communities!
By the way, I'm an unconventional Chrn re Eucharist. I think an annual passover is a much more reasonable interpretation of the NT and Ex 15. Nicaea specifically stopped that practice, and Calvin discouraged its restoration at the time of the Reformation. Without such influences stopping it, it would lead to significantly greater Christian appreciation of their Jewish roots.
Thank you for sharing your perspective on JfJ and MJ. Yes, I think they are very Christian and yet the Catholic Church would officially reject them as readily as Protestants! To be honest, I can find it hard to think of JfJ and MJ as Jewish, but I feel their sincerity to fulfil the Mosaic covenant as Jews, and I respect it deeply. I'm still trying hard to understand their situation theologically, it's fascinating and difficult.
Finally, I've disagreed with Catholicism twice in this post. I disagree with many of their official teachings, but I'm not anti-Catholic. I'm sure I don't really need to say that to you, you understand independence of thought within religious traditions. Shalom, my friend. Alastair Haines 10:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Many Thanks, Friend
I just wanted to thank you for your extremely kind words. What a thoughtful thing to do! All the best, A Sniper 17:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Help re: Bible narrative
Hi,
I'm feeling the impossibility of what I'm attempting, but I want to push on anyway. You know I think something like this should live somewhere at Wiki.
Anyway, I've written a synopsis of Genesis. It feels awful working with the Bible in English, let alone leaving so much out. The fun part is having the benefit of rich traditions of interpretation to help guide selection of the flow of the narrative.
Only B'reshit itself is perfect, so I've no illusions about what I've drafted, so I'd appreciate your comments.
You'll note I've not laboured the Aqedah to suggest crucifixion parallels. I was quite conscious of passing over all sorts of things while trying to stick to the core narrative. I have deliberately repeated the phrase "grow in numbers" to reflect echos of p'ru ur'bu. There are other subtleties. I actually tried to help a reader feel the impact of Isaac's birth, and of Joseph's forgiveness. They are amazingly moving stories. But overall Genesis is a "warts and all" soap opera of "skeletons in the family closet."
So, I'd love your comments or changes, I'm also keen to have someone draft Exodus. Hint, hint. I'm content for this text to "wander in the wilderness" until it can yashav or shakan somewhere.
Shalom. Alastair Haines 10:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm going to put comments on the talk page corresponding to this draft - that way you can keep this all together...see you over there. Egfrank 11:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Geiger and Zunz
I see you found the source for Giegers stance in the blood libel without me (I've been away a bit.) I question the inclusion of Zunz among the fathers of the Reform movement. Here is a citation from JE:
Although his "Gottesdienstliche Vorträge" was the very rampart behind which Reform could securely and calmly beat back the attacks of its opponents, Zunz showed little sympathy with the movement, because he suspected its leaders of ecclesiastic ambitions, and feared that rabbinical autocracy would result from the Reform crusade.
The violent outcry raised against the Talmud by some of the principal spirits of the Reform party was repugnant to Zunz's historic sense, while he himself was temperamentally inclined to assign a determinative potency to sentiment, this explaining his tender reverence for ceremonial usages. His position was by no means Orthodox in the usual sense, however, even in regard to the ritual practises, etc,
In general, Zunz was an interesting figure (I hope to expand on him next). I would classify his stance as more in line of a proto-conservative. I await your opinion befor making changes. Best.Wolf2191 02:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi Eg (may I call you that, for example?). Just noticed your Category:Progressive Jewish thinkers. If you don't mind my saying so, that list may be admirable but it would tend to be a matter of personal opinion, right? If so, how would you feel about deleting it? Be well. Pls reply to my Talk. L'hit, HG | Talk 05:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm certainly open to discussing the usefulness of this category.
- Some background. The category isn't exactly my invention. It arose while I was trying to do some cleanup on a rather heterogeneous set of items that had been assigned to Category:Reform Judaism - a mix of summer camps, rabbis, concepts, people, etc. When the members of a category are too much of a mixed bag the category is not particularly useful - the human mind needs a certain amount of homogeneity to effectively scan down a list.
- I certainly didn't feel I had the right to nix the Reform Judaism category (nor even change its name alas - it includes topics of interest to all progressive Jews across the world but is named in a manner that is biased towards the American branch of progressive Judaism.) Nor, in most cases, did I have the time to research the validity of the existing associations between each article and progressive Judaism. My conservative solution was to break the items into mentally homogeneous groupings while still preserving the connection to Category:Reform Judaism. Hence thinker+reform turned into Category:Progressive Jewish thinkers.
- As for the category being "personal opinion". No, I don't think so. If the thinker influenced the development of progressive Jewish thought then it is arguably a progressive Jewish thinker. We can find reliable sources for asserting X influenced progressive Judaism.
- There are, BTW, many thinkers that have influenced research, dialog, and rhetoric in all streams of Judaism from Orthodoxy to the most tradition denying universalistic segments of Progressive Judaism. Abraham Joshua Heschel, Joseph B Soleveitchik, Leopold Zunz among them. By extension of the definition of "Progressive thinker" offered above, these would also be members of Category:Orthodox Jewish thinkers and Category:Conservative Jewish thinkers.
- My question in return would be: how do we capture the thought that has influenced each movement? On one hand I think it is very important that we get away from the idea that any movement "owns" some part of Jewish thought and tradition. On the other hand, each movement focuses on a different (albeit overlapping) group of thinkers. This too is notable and needs to be documented.
- Kol tuv, Egfrank 07:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Concern about duplicating Reform and Progressive labels
Hi Egfrank: Looking at your recent expansion of articles and categories relating to Progressive Judaism creates a number of serious problems of duplication and redundancies. You seem to be conducting a solo editorial campaign of revisionism that creates a false impression that "Progressive Judaism" somehow has nothing to do with Reform Judaism, or you are creating articles and categries that is artificially distancing the notions of "Reform" from "Progressivism" from each other which may violate WP:NOR, when they are essentially one and the same thing. For example, you created Category:Progressive Jewish communal organizations, Category:Progressive Jewish higher education, Category:Progressive Jewish thinkers with articles in them that pertain to Reform Judaism more than anything else. What is this "heirarchy" all about? What is the common or universal scholarly standing of Progressive Judaism vis-a-vis Reform Judaism and vice versa? If they are one and the same thing then they should not get separate articles or categories but should be merged. Is it something like the the split within Haredi Judaism where you have Hasidic Judaism as a sub-group yet distinctly different? Just look at these examples of what you did: The Central Conference of American Rabbis is the arch-Reform rabbinical body, yet you have on your own placed them in Category:Progressive Jewish communal organizations, when surely that should have been Category:Reform Judaism communal organizations? -- By the way, the term Reform Judaism is preferable to "Reform Jewish" since "Judaism" refers to the religion whereas "Jewish" may also mean the ethnicity alone, excluding the religion.) You put the main Reform Judaism institution of Hebrew Union College into Category:Progressive Jewish higher education, should that not have been Category:Reform Judaism higher education instead? You then place Moses Mendelssohn into Category:Progressive Jewish thinkers, which is actually quite nebulous because the term "Progressive" could have so many connotations in light of the Haskalah milieu Mendelssohn lived in and was responding to. In any case who decided to make him into a "Progressive" now, certainly it is not what he called himself and by dint of history and all mainstream scholarship he is regarded as the main "Father of Reform Judaism" almost universally. Thus this last category should have been Category:Reform Judaism thinkers. Unless this mix-up can be clarified, I will ask that the Progressive Judaism article be merged into the main Reform Judaism article, and that the categories be renamed as I have noted above. I look forward to hearing from you soon. Sincerest good wishes and Shabbat Shalom, IZAK 08:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)