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I presume that you have your email disabled? A tad confused because I feel like having seen the option, last month! Or maybe I am misremembering things as usual. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:48, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- @TrangaBellam: I don't think you're misremembering! :-) You probably saw it when I had it turned on temporarily last month because I made a request at WP:RX (all hail the gods of RX). I normally keep it off because I receive a high amount of unsolicited email. For example, last month when I turned it on, it was only a little over 24 hours before I got an unsolicited email, so I turned it off again. I think it's an occupational hazard of being active at places like ANI. Levivich (talk) 17:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- That's interesting. I'm not a stranger to ANI, but I very rarely get unsolicited emails. I wonder whether that's an perk that comes with the ability to block people's accounts, or whether I just don't say anything interesting enough to respond to. Girth Summit (blether) 16:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- You're more likely to be referee than combatant :-) For clarity, when I say "unsolicited emails," I'm thinking of a certain type: emails from editors I've never interacted with about disputes I am not involved in, along the lines of, "can you help me with...?" or "I wanted to bring to your attention what so-and-so did." (The other category of generally unwanted email is people continuing on-wiki disputes off-wiki.) That's what I got 24 hours after quietly turning on my email last month; I couldn't believe it. To give you another example: initially (years ago), I turned off my enwiki email; I started getting emails from sister projects. Some people said, "I noticed your enwiki email was turned off so I'm emailing you here." This happened multiple times, so I went and figured out how to shut off the global preference. I also tried turning my userpage into a redirect, deleting my custom signature, and participating less in on-wiki controversy, in an attempt to "lower my profile". (It didn't work.) Levivich (talk) 18:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- That's weird, and kind of creepy. I've got e-mail turned on, and I guess I get a 'Wikipedia email' like, once or twice a month. Hang on, I'll have a look...
- Hmm, I have a bad memory, or I'm a very bad judge of frequency, or something. I get quite a few, but almost of them are relevant to something I'm doing. One this morning, from a user I don't know, but giving me useful observations about an SPI case I'm working; I got one about three days ago, again from a user I don't know, but giving me useful info about a block I'd made; one about an ANI thread I'd commented on, from one of the other participants; I got one about five days ago from an SPI clerk I know well onwiki, asking about an account they thought might be connected to a case; another from another admin, asking if I could tidy up an SPI case someone had made a mess of - that's all in the last ten days or so. OK, so I do get a lot of unsolicited emails, but they're all useful and not from totally random people asking me to help them out. Do you think it might be related to your creation of the 'Help' button, or did it predate that? Girth Summit (blether) 18:33, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- It predated the help button. Most of the people emailing me, IIRC, were editors who were active in ANI threads at the same time that I was active in an ANI thread, but a different ANI thread (or AN or AE, etc.). Levivich (talk) 18:43, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- I get a decent amount of email but usually it's along the lines of sharing nature photographs with fellow Wikipedians and online penpals. I also do stuff related to wikimeda-related mailing lists (I recieve a lot of incoming email in regards to that but rarely participate). Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- It predated the help button. Most of the people emailing me, IIRC, were editors who were active in ANI threads at the same time that I was active in an ANI thread, but a different ANI thread (or AN or AE, etc.). Levivich (talk) 18:43, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- You're more likely to be referee than combatant :-) For clarity, when I say "unsolicited emails," I'm thinking of a certain type: emails from editors I've never interacted with about disputes I am not involved in, along the lines of, "can you help me with...?" or "I wanted to bring to your attention what so-and-so did." (The other category of generally unwanted email is people continuing on-wiki disputes off-wiki.) That's what I got 24 hours after quietly turning on my email last month; I couldn't believe it. To give you another example: initially (years ago), I turned off my enwiki email; I started getting emails from sister projects. Some people said, "I noticed your enwiki email was turned off so I'm emailing you here." This happened multiple times, so I went and figured out how to shut off the global preference. I also tried turning my userpage into a redirect, deleting my custom signature, and participating less in on-wiki controversy, in an attempt to "lower my profile". (It didn't work.) Levivich (talk) 18:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- That's interesting. I'm not a stranger to ANI, but I very rarely get unsolicited emails. I wonder whether that's an perk that comes with the ability to block people's accounts, or whether I just don't say anything interesting enough to respond to. Girth Summit (blether) 16:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Ah, understandable. I had planned to shoot you a mail on something-of-interest but was confounded by the sudden (to me) lack of option! TrangaBellam (talk) 15:32, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
Comment at WP:CESSPOOL
Completely unrelated tangent to the discussion where this came from, but...
I don't think that rant even falls in the top 100 ANI bangers. ... It shouldn't have to be among the top 100 ANI bangers for us to call it out.
I don't think we would ever be able to include it in Wikipedia-space or even userspace due to the WP:ENEMIESLIST connotation, but I'd sure love to see a list of the "top 100 ANI bangers" someday. There were some editors (most of them gone now) back in the old days whose rants were legendary. ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:57, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
- I hope someday one of mine makes the list. Levivich (talk) 15:01, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
ANI
Hi! I would like to ask you to remove your comment calling me a noob at the Trannarchist ANI thread. I might be new here but I am aware of WP:CIVIL. cheers! --Licks-rocks (talk) 20:37, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
- Hi! Ok, done. I would like to ask you to read MOS:LABEL so that you understand that being a mountaineer is not an MOS:LABEL. When people make these kinds of arguments at ANI, it can waste time and derail discussions. Levivich (talk) 20:51, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
- I did that before I came here. --Licks-rocks (talk) 21:14, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for the "Thanks"
Your suggestion to renominate Leo Liu at WP:AFD was a good one. We'll see how that goes. Maybe this kid will merit a feature article in a decade or two, but not yet. Banks Irk (talk) 21:59, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the thanks of my thanks! Levivich (talk) 22:12, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
- This has been fun to watch. Thank you both. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:37, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
I'm going to think twice before following your suggestions again, lest I be dragged to the Spanish Inquisition again. But it was still a good suggestion; no regrets. Banks Irk (talk) 01:03, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- OK but if you ever change your mind, I have plenty of suggestions for how to get dragged to ANI. Levivich (talk) 01:05, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't say I'd ignore your suggestions, just that I'd think twice. So keep your to-do list handy - not that I don't have a pretty comprehensive list of my own should I ever decide to exit Wikipedia in a blaze of glory. Banks Irk (talk) 01:19, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- Gotta reach the WP:Unblockables level before you can trigger the blaze of glory alternate ending; I'm not there yet. Levivich (talk) 01:23, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't say I'd ignore your suggestions, just that I'd think twice. So keep your to-do list handy - not that I don't have a pretty comprehensive list of my own should I ever decide to exit Wikipedia in a blaze of glory. Banks Irk (talk) 01:19, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
Per your last comment
Not keen on what is unsubtly implied in this last comment–FA received warnings for similar. Also, likely merge is an acceptable decline rationale; see rationale "mergeto" within the AFC tool. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:32, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't intend any implications. What do you think I unsubtly implied? Levivich (talk) 18:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- Your comment
Also, please mind systemic bias when you're evaluating articles about women and people of color, especially Americans, especially historical. Their notability will not be as obvious as white American men
is plainly evident: you feel my editing takes a sexist and racist bent. A peculiar assessment, especially when I addressed the need to work against systemic bias earlier in the discussion. If you had an alternative implication, you are welcome to give it. Also, again, mergeto is valid rationale. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:46, 27 February 2023 (UTC)- No, I don't think your editing takes a sexist or racist bent. Nor do I believe that people, when they don't mind systemic bias, or don't mind it enough, are being sexist or racist. Systemic bias is systemic, we all contribute to it, it doesn't mean we're racist or sexist. "Mergeto" is a valid rationale, but it's not the rationale you chose when declining the drafts you declined. Levivich (talk) 18:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- You felt the need to say this, despite my ready acknowledgement of systemic bias in my OP and elsewhere in the thread. If you felt the need to reiterate it, why?
- Ok, so we agree that
the fact that an article is a merge candidate does not mean it should be declined at AFC!
is wrong. Also, you're right–I didn't chose mergeto in my two declines because there were other rationales. I was discussing another article entirely–one that fully embodies the mergeto rationale. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:04, 27 February 2023 (UTC)- Because despite saying we should mind systemic bias, you're not doing it.
- I'm not wrong. Just because an article is a merge candidate does not mean it should be declined for that reason. Read what WP:AFCR says about when to decline as mergeto. Anyway, since that's not the reason you chose, I'm not sure why we're talking about it.
- I just took a spin through your declines from today:
- Draft:Kishor Helmar Sridhar is a notable, award-winning author. I don't know why you declined for notability and for lack of inline citations. You wrote, "please remember provide inline citations for every claim in a biography of a living person," but that's not what WP:MINREF or WP:BLP says; inline cites are only needed for contentious BLP claims, not for "every claim" in a BLP. (Meanwhile, AFCR says explicitly not to do this.)
- Draft:Code of Everand - not supported by RS? What? And not notable? Double what? [1] [2] [3] [4]. OK, not all of those were in the article, but there's enough in the article, and a quick Google Scholar search [5], how many video games have 67 hits in GScholar?
- Draft:Zirid campaign in Illyria - not supported by RS? There's three academic sources there. Yes, two are over 100 years old. Not a reason to decline. Actually, I'd have declined this as mergeto.
- After looking at these three, I now believe more than I did before that you are being too strict in your declines, and not helpful enough in your decline rationales. Levivich (talk) 19:18, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- No, I don't think your editing takes a sexist or racist bent. Nor do I believe that people, when they don't mind systemic bias, or don't mind it enough, are being sexist or racist. Systemic bias is systemic, we all contribute to it, it doesn't mean we're racist or sexist. "Mergeto" is a valid rationale, but it's not the rationale you chose when declining the drafts you declined. Levivich (talk) 18:48, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- Your comment
That's a lot of evidence of...nothing? Declining a draft that didn't cite claim he was a college graduate (accreditation is a contentious claim) and was primarily based his own website? Declined a draft that lacked sourcing to demonstrate its notability (something another editor immediately declined it for after me)? Declined a draft with sources variously primary, old, and limited? And not a thing to support your claim of systemic bias. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:36, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
ANI discussion
Hi Levivich, I realize the irony that lasted only half an hour lol, but I added that clarification due to advice from Licks-rocks that I was throwing fuel on the fire by asking for more evidence so I tried to narrow the scope of my comment so the conversation didn't blow up again. If you did raise previously raise concerns about specific GENSEX edits/articles that didn't overlap with BLP/BLPGROUP, please by all means prove me a fool there and link/quote them. Otherwise, please post a clarification that you hadn't raised them and your issues had thus far been with my conduct on BLP/BLPGROUP - GENSEX intersections. Either way, you can have the final word there, I just want this to be over with. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:15, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- I am trying to eat breakfast. Levivich (talk) 22:20, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Formatting
I tried hard to align the indentation of Your cherrypicking is obvious ...
with the quote preceding it but failed. Maybe, you or one of your t/p watchers can come to aid? TrangaBellam (talk) 17:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
- Actually I have no idea how to fix the bullet-indent-{{talkquote}}-next-paragraph bug; I've come across this before as well. For anyone else reading this who cares, if you start a comment with
*:
(or similar), and then you use {{tq2}}, and you want to put another comment after the tq2,*:
leaves the trailing bullet (doesn't continue the list markup in HTML, it's rendered as a new list), and::
won't line it up right (because colons and bullets have different indents), and paragraph breaks don't work after the tq2 for whatever reason, and a<br>
after the tq2 (or nothing after the tq2) will make the next line appear as if it's in {{code}}. I have found no solutions to this. Levivich (talk) 17:50, 2 March 2023 (UTC)- I will open a thread at VPT and copy your cogent description with attribution :) TrangaBellam (talk) 19:57, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
Der Spiegel
Could you mail me the article text? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:07, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- I would if I could but unfortunately I can't get past the paywall today. :-( Yesterday I followed a link on Twitter to the article and no paywall. Today, it's all paywalled and I can't figure out how to get around it... none of my usual methods (privacy mode, reader mode, proxy, come in from an outside link from Twitter) work. Levivich (talk) 17:09, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for trying! There's always WP:RX. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:17, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think the journal article now meets WP:GNG
- I'm hoping Der Spiegel puts out an English translation in a few days (Haaretz did the same thing; their initial article was in Hebrew), and that it's not paywalled, because the article was quite interesting to read. And not only because it's a German article about Holocaust distortion written by a guy named Fuhrer.
- IPN responded to the Der Spiegel article on Twitter today (assuming the Twitter account is real), denying that they are behind editing Wikipedia articles about the Holocaust [6], specifically denying that they're behind the KL Warschau hoax [7], and calling out one of the authors [8].
- At this rate, governments are going to start issuing statements soon. Levivich (talk) 17:32, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia coverage of the Holocaust perhaps? Category:Wikipedia coverage of specific events exists, not to mention Wikipedia coverage of American politics. I noted the name too, also made me think of Armin von Roon, fictional general and author. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:43, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think that's now a GNG-notable topic, based on the journal article, Haaretz 2019 and 2023, YNet, JTA, and Der Spiegel. Levivich (talk) 17:49, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- And not quite on-topic, there are the "This project has been mentioned by multiple media organizations" articles at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:47, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia coverage of the Holocaust perhaps? Category:Wikipedia coverage of specific events exists, not to mention Wikipedia coverage of American politics. I noted the name too, also made me think of Armin von Roon, fictional general and author. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:43, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think the journal article now meets WP:GNG
- Thanks for trying! There's always WP:RX. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:17, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Gråbergs Gråa Sång You can find it on archive.ph. DeepL will then get you a decent English translation. Andreas JN466 19:07, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, that worked! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:18, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
1815 unreferenced BLPs
I was wondering if you had any advice for trying to deal with Category:All unreferenced BLPs? I noticed that the category existed quite awhile ago by going through the rabbit hole that is Wikipedia:Backlog. Despite the category name, most of these wouldn't actually fit WP:BLPPROD because many of them have an external link (like Steve Colter, which I found by using "random" in the category). I asked someone else for advice once and they suggested organizing through page views because the ones that are viewed more often are more likely to be notable... but the more I think about it, I'm not sure that's the best way to go about it. Do you have any advice for trying to work through this? Maybe I could try to organize a backlog drive or something? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:16, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'd be cautious about that category. Checking a few from the beginning of the list: Pablo Acosta (footballer), Russ Adam, J. B. Adams, and Graham Addley are all referenced. Sometimes the references aren't formatted properly (they're ELs or general refs, not inline), and sometimes the references are poor (or non-RS), but they do have at least one reference somewhere on the page; they're not really unreferenced BLPs. I have no idea how many false positives like this are among the 1,815. I also wonder why, if you add up the numbers at Category:Monthly clean-up category (Unreferenced BLPs) counter, it comes nowhere close to 1,815 (or so it seems, haven't actually tried to do the math). I also wonder if 1,815 is a lot for this maintenance category -- it seems that way to me, but then I don't really have a clear memory of how many it had in the past. I'm curious if a lot of these tags are recent.
- Anyway, I feel like {{BLP unreferenced}} should only be added for articles that don't have any sources, not for articles that have sources poorly formatted or have general references but lack inline citations; that's for {{BLP no footnotes}}. So I wonder if I'm right about that, and if so, there's probably a technological way (script) to figure out which BLPs have any kind of external link, and then change those from {{BLP unreferenced}} to {{BLP no footnotes}} automagically (if there is consensus to do that). If that's done, then you'll have a smaller set of truly unsourced BLPs, for which a backlog drive could be organized. But I would see about cutting down the list with a script first, if that's possible/would have consensus. Levivich (talk) 18:31, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae: You're the person that immediately comes to mind when I think of scripts. Is this possible? Or do you have other ideas? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:40, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Writing a WP:QUERY to generate a list, then going through it with WP:AWB, might be a good approach. If you're just fixing articles that have the wrong template, that might not need a fresh consensus discussion. If you're looking for articles to BLPPROD, keep in mind that there's some undocumented nuances and it depends on the admin. I once had a BLPPROD declined because it had an authority control template, which the admin considered to be an external link. A good next step might be to think about what kind of list you want to generate (is in category X and has 0 external links, etc.) and then request a WP:QUERY for it. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:56, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks Novem! I think BilledMammal might have a query recently written that generates a list based on category and external links? Levivich (talk) 19:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Quarry:query/72052. Apparently, every article in that category has an external link. BilledMammal (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, you guys are awesome! The results give me pause, I question whether I understand what {{BLP unreferenced}} is for. Like, when would someone use {{Prod blp}} v. {{BLP unreferenced}} v. {{BLP sources}}? It seems to me we should have two such templates, not three? I'm missing something. Levivich (talk) 19:25, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Seems to me that {{Prod blp}} is no refs/genrefs, no external links, {{BLP unreferenced}} is no refs/genrefs, yes external links, {{BLP sources}} is yes refs/genrefs. Doesn't seem like a great system. There is probably room for improvement, although not sure if it's worth the effort. I tried to make a small change to BLPPROD one time and was reverted. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:35, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think you might be right that that's the current system, and I agree it's not a great system, because I don't see a difference between genrefs and ELs other than what we call the section heading, which seems not a good reason for having two categories. Of the four examples I posted above, Pablo Acosta (footballer) and Russ Adam have genrefs, J. B. Adams and Graham Addley have ELs but those ELs are actually genrefs; all four are in {{BLP unreferenced}} and in my view, none are "unreferenced". They should all be in {{BLP sources}}. Levivich (talk) 19:39, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Even if there is a difference between BLP unreferenced and BLP source it seems most people don't understand the difference - I would support merging them. I note that there are also around 100 articles in BLP unreferenced that include citation templates. BilledMammal (talk) 02:35, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Clovermoss what do you think about all this? Levivich (talk) 03:19, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Even if there is a difference between BLP unreferenced and BLP source it seems most people don't understand the difference - I would support merging them. I note that there are also around 100 articles in BLP unreferenced that include citation templates. BilledMammal (talk) 02:35, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think you might be right that that's the current system, and I agree it's not a great system, because I don't see a difference between genrefs and ELs other than what we call the section heading, which seems not a good reason for having two categories. Of the four examples I posted above, Pablo Acosta (footballer) and Russ Adam have genrefs, J. B. Adams and Graham Addley have ELs but those ELs are actually genrefs; all four are in {{BLP unreferenced}} and in my view, none are "unreferenced". They should all be in {{BLP sources}}. Levivich (talk) 19:39, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Seems to me that {{Prod blp}} is no refs/genrefs, no external links, {{BLP unreferenced}} is no refs/genrefs, yes external links, {{BLP sources}} is yes refs/genrefs. Doesn't seem like a great system. There is probably room for improvement, although not sure if it's worth the effort. I tried to make a small change to BLPPROD one time and was reverted. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:35, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, you guys are awesome! The results give me pause, I question whether I understand what {{BLP unreferenced}} is for. Like, when would someone use {{Prod blp}} v. {{BLP unreferenced}} v. {{BLP sources}}? It seems to me we should have two such templates, not three? I'm missing something. Levivich (talk) 19:25, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Quarry:query/72052. Apparently, every article in that category has an external link. BilledMammal (talk) 19:13, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks Novem! I think BilledMammal might have a query recently written that generates a list based on category and external links? Levivich (talk) 19:00, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Writing a WP:QUERY to generate a list, then going through it with WP:AWB, might be a good approach. If you're just fixing articles that have the wrong template, that might not need a fresh consensus discussion. If you're looking for articles to BLPPROD, keep in mind that there's some undocumented nuances and it depends on the admin. I once had a BLPPROD declined because it had an authority control template, which the admin considered to be an external link. A good next step might be to think about what kind of list you want to generate (is in category X and has 0 external links, etc.) and then request a WP:QUERY for it. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:56, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae: You're the person that immediately comes to mind when I think of scripts. Is this possible? Or do you have other ideas? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:40, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
- Talk page watcher here. I find it highly unlikely that there are any BLPs at all who were born in 1815. Are we talking about vampires here? I only read the header. BD2412 T 03:21, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- BLP doesn't apply to vampires and the Biographies of undead people policy proposal was rejected. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- This link really should be blue: WP:Biographies of undead persons. Levivich (talk) 03:25, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Hahaha. 1,815 unreferenced BLPs. The comma is important! –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:26, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- BLP doesn't apply to vampires and the Biographies of undead people policy proposal was rejected. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)